Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-04-15 10:29am

Also, those are Victory class vessels.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by NecronLord » 2018-04-15 12:17pm

griffinflyer wrote:
2018-04-14 11:51pm
This image is box art from the canon 2015 game, Star Wars Armada. Yes, this does only demonstrate gigatons of firepower, but remember that turbolaser firepower suffers from significant dropoff. Also, using Brians DET calcs, this is actually much more.
Image

Armada is a Fantasy Flight Games product, which is a third party producer who held the Star Wars Tabletop Games license prior to the Disney purchase of Star Wars; much like Star Wars: The Old Republic it is legacies-still-in-production, because contract law does not allow Disney to withdraw such licenses. They can use elements from the new canon, but the Lucasfilm story group is not bound by their products, nor are they considered Star Wars Canon.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by eMeM » 2018-04-15 01:39pm

Yeah, Armada has plenty of Legends content.

But I don't taking Rebels into consideration will get us anywhere. Single canon yadda yadda yadda, this is a Disney XDDDDD show with a tiny budget. Remember that in Rebels a single TIE Advanced destroyed a frigate, a single TIE Interceptor made CR-90 flee in terror, and a Immobilizer cruiser was destroyed with blaster pistols.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by NecronLord » 2018-04-15 01:46pm

You may struggle to believe this as we are nerds on the web, but in fact fighters were *always* a threat to frigates and even bigger ships in Star Wars.

Jedi did not feature the dialogue 'they're going for the medical frigate, but it's a frigate and they're fighters, so they'll ping off the shields, ignore them.'
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-04-15 01:49pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 01:46pm
You may struggle to believe this as we are nerds on the web, but in fact fighters were *always* a threat to frigates and even bigger ships in Star Wars.

Jedi did not feature the dialogue 'they're going for the medical frigate, but it's a frigate and they're fighters, so they'll ping off the shields, ignore them.'
But Necron surely there was a massive off screen attack on the frigate to open the way for the fighters just like there was for the Executor /s
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-15 02:09pm

I guess I didn’t notice it before give that everything in TLJ opening is a overflowing pile of shit, but that initial surface explosion from the dreadnaughts siege cannon is comically puny. We see the actual bolt impact only maybe a few hundred meters away and the initial fireball looks about as energetic as turkey fryer overflowing. It stays that way for seconds,then expands.

Now I get they did that in an attempt to add the drama of a transport full of people I don’t care about getting away in the Knick of time. But since that is like the tenth ticking clock mechanic in the scene, and that’s slready the cheapest drama mechanic there is anyway, who fucking cared at the time?

The fucked it up anyway. The ship shouldn’t have started from dead stop at the point of impact, necessitating the pitiful effects mismatch of a firecracker in place of the Yellowstone eruption event the siege cannon was signaling. Intelligent observers would expect that transport to be vaporized intantly (a smart film maker would have done that, given that again the transport was filled with nobodies, and it would have made the evacuation all the more tragic), and since it wasn’t it’s a laughable moment. The ship should have already been racing away, hundreds of miles into the atmoshere, and the explosion catches up with them. Sort of like in RotJ and the DSII, where speed and the chase steer the mind to scale.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-15 02:13pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 01:46pm
You may struggle to believe this as we are nerds on the web, but in fact fighters were *always* a threat to frigates and even bigger ships in Star Wars.

Jedi did not feature the dialogue 'they're going for the medical frigate, but it's a frigate and they're fighters, so they'll ping off the shields, ignore them.'
I am not saying your interpretation is wrong persay, but the situation and tone of voice doesn’t lead me to believe they see the TIEs as imminent threats to the frigate or that they even thought they were attacking the frigate, but rather Wedge was using the frigate as a spatiaI reference since they were hunting TIEs.

The quote is actually “ They’re heading fo the medical frigate” BTW, which is far more ambiguous than your misremember.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by NecronLord » 2018-04-15 02:43pm

That's exactly the quote I remember.

Of course I also remember that one (1) squadron of B-wings destroying an ISD couldn't be included in RotJ for budgetary reasons, not because it was considered impossible by the writers. The intention of the creators was always that fighters and bombers were a real, serious threat.

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Ralph Mcquarrie concept of the unmade scene.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-15 03:45pm

I would have no heart ache if that scene was included. If done right (NOT like they did it in R1 or TLJ, which makes no sense as depicted) it could be very cool. We did see an ISD blow up at Endor. As a general comment I have no issue with star fighters being threats to capital ships. I just want the balance to be such that the capital ships still make sense in the universe as they exist.

And its a two way streak. There is no point in Endor where we see star fighters damage Rebel capital ships, or where anyone perceives them to be a threat to the Rebel capital ships (you and I may disagree on this based one the quote above, but a frigate is 1/100 the volume of a MC80 or ISD so not really very relevant) . I think this is what really bothers people about star fighter on capital ship engagements, that they are utterly irreverent, and treated as such in universe (movie), and then all of a sudden they are one shoting everything. Its so arbitrary. It would be one thing if it is communicated as a disruptive technology or tactic, but then we see the exact same combat mechanics in the prequels as we do in the OT, and nobody has learned a damn thing by nuWars.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Formless » 2018-04-15 04:03pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-04-15 02:09pm
I guess I didn’t notice it before give that everything in TLJ opening is a overflowing pile of shit, but that initial surface explosion from the dreadnaughts siege cannon is comically puny. We see the actual bolt impact only maybe a few hundred meters away and the initial fireball looks about as energetic as turkey fryer overflowing. It stays that way for seconds,then expands.

Now I get they did that in an attempt to add the drama of a transport full of people I don’t care about getting away in the Knick of time. But since that is like the tenth ticking clock mechanic in the scene, and that’s slready the cheapest drama mechanic there is anyway, who fucking cared at the time?

The fucked it up anyway. The ship shouldn’t have started from dead stop at the point of impact, necessitating the pitiful effects mismatch of a firecracker in place of the Yellowstone eruption event the siege cannon was signaling. Intelligent observers would expect that transport to be vaporized intantly (a smart film maker would have done that, given that again the transport was filled with nobodies, and it would have made the evacuation all the more tragic), and since it wasn’t it’s a laughable moment. The ship should have already been racing away, hundreds of miles into the atmoshere, and the explosion catches up with them. Sort of like in RotJ and the DSII, where speed and the chase steer the mind to scale.
You know, while I get that the nature of the explosion is rather strange, the end result is still a fuckoff huge eruption of energy much greater than the initial impact would suggest (which is itself far in excess of the pitiful Rebels display no matter how you cut it). Its difficult to calculate beyond "bigatons", but it is clearly on the high end of what Star Wars has been seen doing. Again, it can't be easily attributed to a generator, fuel depot, or weapons cache exploding (and anyway, if it were that would just make those technologies look all the more impressive) because none of those things were seen and the fact that this is the last transport taking off means they almost certainly moved their bombs and fuel into orbit near the beginning of the evacuation and rather than leaving those things lying around an abandoned base carelessly. That leaves just the dreadnought cannons as the primary energy source for the final explosion we witness. And its not impossible for me to think of explanations for the odd behavior of the blast: the most obvious is that the turbolaser bolts could have penetrated some distance into the ground before fully expending their energy, literally causing an underground eruption much like a volcano or like a scaled up version of the Teapot Ess nuclear test. Consider the way asteroids have been seen absorbing turbolaser energy quite evenly before vaporizing. It makes a bunch of sense, even if its not a perfect explanation.
And its a two way streak. There is no point in Endor where we see star fighters damage Rebel capital ships, or where anyone perceives them to be a threat to the Rebel capital ships (you and I may disagree on this based one the quote above, but a frigate is 1/100 the volume of a MC80 or ISD so not really very relevant) .
You do realize that the Rebel's main objective at Endor was destroying the Death Star, right? Since that objective could only be accomplished by the Rebel's starfighters, and since TIEs are definitely effective at fighting their peers, it didn't matter whether they were a threat to capital ships at Endor. Deploying them threatened the only Rebel asset that actually mattered on that particular mission. Hence why it was a smart move to keep the Star Destroyers hanging back, as they were only needed to keep the Rebels from flying their capital ships to the other side of the planet where the Death Star couldn't pick them off (unless the Emperor decided to just blow up the whole planet and call it a day, and of course his priority was on demoralizing Luke and seducing him to the Dark Side, so that wasn't in the cards).
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by griffinflyer » 2018-04-15 04:36pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 12:17pm
[Don't quote pictures ~ NL]
Armada is a Fantasy Flight Games product, which is a third party producer who held the Star Wars Tabletop Games license prior to the Disney purchase of Star Wars; much like Star Wars: The Old Republic it is legacies-still-in-production, because contract law does not allow Disney to withdraw such licenses. They can use elements from the new canon, but the Lucasfilm story group is not bound by their products, nor are they considered Star Wars Canon.
Oh nice, another TTS fan!
But, Armada IS canon. It was produced after the canon cutoff date, which was in 2014, making it canon.
Wookiepedia says
The following material, although released after April 25, 2014, is not considered canon:
Star Wars: Legacy Volume 2 issues 15-18.
Dark Horse Comics' Star Wars series issues 17-20.
Star Wars: Rebel Heist comic miniseries.
Comic strips published in Star Wars Comic UK #5-#13.
Goodnight Darth Vader and its sequel Darth Vader and Friends.
Star Wars: Imperial Handbook: A Commander's Guide, a 2014 reference book.
The ongoing MMO Star Wars: The Old Republic and its expansions.
Star Wars: The Old Republic-related short stories published online in the game's developer blog.
Fantasy Flight Games's RPG supplements contain elements of both Canon and Legends topics."
Notice that only FFGs RPG supplements, not the board games, are not considered canon.
Here is a list of FFG RPGs, note that Star Wars Armada is not on the list. https://community.fantasyflightgames.co ... ing-games/

Image
Also note the disney mark. Disney approves.

However, regardless of whether or not the game is canon, the other evidences still stand-we just no longer have pictures, only descriptions of events.

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by NecronLord » 2018-04-15 04:40pm

Formless wrote:
2018-04-15 04:03pm
You know, while I get that the nature of the explosion is rather strange, the end result is still a fuckoff huge eruption of energy much greater than the initial impact would suggest (which is itself far in excess of the pitiful Rebels display no matter how you cut it). Its difficult to calculate beyond "bigatons", but it is clearly on the high end of what Star Wars has been seen doing. Again, it can't be easily attributed to a generator, fuel depot, or weapons cache exploding (and anyway, if it were that would just make those technologies look all the more impressive) because none of those things were seen and the fact that this is the last transport taking off means they almost certainly moved their bombs and fuel into orbit near the beginning of the evacuation and rather than leaving those things lying around an abandoned base carelessly.
Actually there is dialogue explicitly describing them leaving pallets of shells behind.

"We're not clear yet! There's still 30 pallets of cannon shells in C bunker."
"Forget the ammunition, there's no time."
From two Resistance officers in the evacuation scene.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by NecronLord » 2018-04-15 04:44pm

griffinflyer wrote:
2018-04-15 04:36pm
Notice that only FFGs RPG supplements, not the board games, are not considered canon.
Here is a list of FFG RPGs, note that Star Wars Armada is not on the list. https://community.fantasyflightgames.co ... ing-games/

Also note the disney mark. Disney approves.

However, regardless of whether or not the game is canon, the other evidences still stand-we just no longer have pictures, only descriptions of events.
I know what a role-playing game is (so in fact does the LFL story group, having in it various alumni of the old WEG games, which is partly where the ultraminimalism comes from) but that does not mean a wiki is a guideline. Armada uses Legends content, Armada is thus not usable as canon.

Disney's mark comes on Star Wars bobble-heads, do you believe everyone has three foot wide heads?
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-04-15 04:47pm

The Disney Mark is there, because Disney owns Lucas now, and FFG would have it's ass in a legal sling, if they failed to acknowledge that.

It does not, in any way, suggest Disney considers Armada canon.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Formless » 2018-04-15 04:59pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 04:40pm
Formless wrote:
2018-04-15 04:03pm
You know, while I get that the nature of the explosion is rather strange, the end result is still a fuckoff huge eruption of energy much greater than the initial impact would suggest (which is itself far in excess of the pitiful Rebels display no matter how you cut it). Its difficult to calculate beyond "bigatons", but it is clearly on the high end of what Star Wars has been seen doing. Again, it can't be easily attributed to a generator, fuel depot, or weapons cache exploding (and anyway, if it were that would just make those technologies look all the more impressive) because none of those things were seen and the fact that this is the last transport taking off means they almost certainly moved their bombs and fuel into orbit near the beginning of the evacuation and rather than leaving those things lying around an abandoned base carelessly.
Actually there is dialogue explicitly describing them leaving pallets of shells behind.

"We're not clear yet! There's still 30 pallets of cannon shells in C bunker."
"Forget the ammunition, there's no time."
From two Resistance officers in the evacuation scene.
Hm. I didn't remember this line; its a frantic scene, and I noted before that the video ALL-CAPS-MAN posted had all the dialogue edited out. Somehow I doubt that thirty pallets of canon shells by itself could create that big of a boom. Not if those cannons are for land assault/defense, anyway, since you don't often have use for tactical nukes made of antimatter; and if they are for ship-to-ship combat, then that by itself proves their ship-to-ship weapons are incredibly energetic like we've always thought. So I would put forth that even this line of dialogue actually helps the case that Star Wars weapons should be more powerful than portrayed in a certain episode of Rebels. And that it would likely not bring down the estimated firepower of the Dreadnought by all that much, given the ship is supposed to be a fleet killer as well as a planetary bombardment platform.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Galvatron » 2018-05-10 06:48am

Here's a new Imperial toy that we've never seen before: the aerial landing platform (aka "skybase")! Tarkin's ISD deployed more than one of these after the Mon Cals caused a tidal wave that destroyed all of the surface cities, thereby depriving his invasion force of any staging grounds above the water.

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Image

I think fractalsponge should model this. :)

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Mange » 2018-05-11 05:55am

NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 02:43pm
That's exactly the quote I remember.

Of course I also remember that one (1) squadron of B-wings destroying an ISD couldn't be included in RotJ for budgetary reasons, not because it was considered impossible by the writers. The intention of the creators was always that fighters and bombers were a real, serious threat.

Ralph Mcquarrie concept of the unmade scene.
From what I remember it wasn't because of budgetary reaons, but that almost all of the shots of B-wings were scrapped because they were too difficult to shoot against blue screen (the wings proved too thin and disappeared).

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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-05-11 04:40pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-05-10 06:48am
Here's a new Imperial toy that we've never seen before: the aerial landing platform (aka "skybase")! Tarkin's ISD deployed more than one of these after the Mon Cals caused a tidal wave that destroyed all of the surface cities, thereby depriving his invasion force of any staging grounds above the water.
It looks like a variant/equivalent of the old prefab garrisons.
I think fractalsponge should model this. :)
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-05-13 02:26pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-04-08 11:58am
This comic also has Tarkin being addressed as a Grand Moff two years earlier than his promotion to that rank so it seems like the LFL Story Group is slacking off a bit.
I noticed that too, why is that so hard to do
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by RogueIce » 2018-06-05 02:07am

Formless wrote:
2018-04-12 05:08pm
Oh, and the idea that it matters whether the ship with the big guns is a dreadnought or a Star Destroyer when in the comic posted by the OP shows that Tarkin's fleet had ships similarly equipped with specialized bombardment guns?
As a matter of clarification, the XX-9s of which Colonel Bergon refers appear to be the standard heavy turbolasers that were in the Death Star trench and of which ISD-Is come standard with 60, so not a "specialized bombardment gun" at all. Just typical HTLs.

Which means HTLs are good for standard bombardment, but lighter guns are not. Also fits with an alternate theory for the Rebels scene, that it was one of the light cruisers, not a Star Destroyer, taking shots at Kanan.
NecronLord wrote:
2018-04-15 01:46pm
You may struggle to believe this as we are nerds on the web, but in fact fighters were *always* a threat to frigates and even bigger ships in Star Wars.

Jedi did not feature the dialogue 'they're going for the medical frigate, but it's a frigate and they're fighters, so they'll ping off the shields, ignore them.'
Let's be fair: eMeM's contention wasn't that fighters shouldn't be a threat, but that a single fighter could take out larger ships with apparent trivial ease. Which is inconsistent with past EU portrayals where it required multiple fighters working in tandem to take down capital ships. Even the X-Wing novels, which most people blame for exaggerating the "fighter vs. capship" thing, required entire squadrons operating in concert and leaving themselves vulnerable to enemy fighters in the process unless they had an escort of their own.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-06-05 10:50am

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-04-12 07:55pm
Formless' claim that the turbolasers were bleeding off energy due to extreme range or the atmosphere seems on the face of it to be the most reasonable explanation. Simon_Jester's point about catastrophic heating of the atmosphere is nevertheless a reasonable counter.

The best I can suggest is that the shots lose so much energy over the course of their flight that by the time they hit the atmosphere, they simply lack the energy needed to create an effect on the scale Simon_Jester refers to. Based on the visuals, Thrawn's fleet appeared to be in mid to high orbit, suggesting a range in the thousands or tens of thousands of kilometres; whereas turbolasers seem to have effective ranges of as little as sixty kilometres in TLJ as has been mentioned.

If this is not adequate, I can suggest only two further courses.

1) Ignore it. The Rebels example is a one-off, compared to large amounts of canon evidence for far greater firepower. Preponderance of the evidence favours the higher figures.

2) Thrawn was deliberately firing low-powered shots. We know from the series finale that star destroyers can alter the firepower of their weapons; Thrawn specifically ordered a full-power bombardment while Ezra was stuck with Palpatine. There is also a logical explanation as to why he would power down his weapons; namely that it lets him torment Ezra into surrendering, while not pushing him so far as to fly off the handle. Thrawn was ever the master psychologist.

So why would he fire low-powered shots at Chopper Base? Well, there are only two pieces of evidence that imply low-powered shots; the shots tormenting Kanan on his bike, and the lack of the catastrophic atmospheric heating spoken of by Simon_Jester. In the case of the Kanan shots, there is another factor to consider; he is some distance from the base, and the shots are too closely-targetted to be mere misses from the base. It seems as if someone spotted Kanan, dialled the weapons down to bare minimum, and decided to have some fun at his expense.

As for the lack of catastrophic heating, that's actually an explanation as to why Thrawn would power down. Tarkin ordered him to take prisoners, so he needs to carry out a land operation. If he were to screw up the local weather conditions (not to mention the planetary ecology) with a full-scale nuclear-comparable bombardment, even if the shield could resist it, then such an operation would be much more difficult, if not impossible. At the very least there would be dust and high winds to contend with, if not radiation and extreme heat.
I was thinking option 2
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-06-06 02:02am

griffinflyer wrote:
2018-04-14 11:51pm
Image
This image is box art from the canon 2015 game, Star Wars Armada. Yes, this does only demonstrate gigatons of firepower, but remember that turbolaser firepower suffers from significant dropoff. Also, using Brians DET calcs, this is actually much more.
In Legends Clone Wars comics (form the clone wars mini series) of the Jemini Arc has shown up planets DBZ
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-06-06 09:14pm

RogueIce wrote:
2018-06-05 02:07am
Which means HTLs are good for standard bombardment, but lighter guns are not. Also fits with an alternate theory for the Rebels scene, that it was one of the light cruisers, not a Star Destroyer, taking shots at Kanan.
Were any light cruisers present at the battle besides the Interdictor? I don't recall seeing any.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by RogueIce » 2018-06-06 10:56pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-06-06 09:14pm
RogueIce wrote:
2018-06-05 02:07am
Which means HTLs are good for standard bombardment, but lighter guns are not. Also fits with an alternate theory for the Rebels scene, that it was one of the light cruisers, not a Star Destroyer, taking shots at Kanan.
Were any light cruisers present at the battle besides the Interdictor? I don't recall seeing any.
I'd swear there were some, but DisneyXD doesn't have season 3 on their page anymore so I can't pull it up.

Anyway, ISDs do have medium turbolaser batteries, so if Thrawn was using the heavies on Chopper Base, the mediums might have been used to take shots at Kanan. So the same basic theory could still apply.
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Re: Orbital bombardments, planetary defenses, Death Stars, etc.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-06-07 07:45pm

RogueIce wrote:
2018-06-06 10:56pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-06-06 09:14pm
RogueIce wrote:
2018-06-05 02:07am
Which means HTLs are good for standard bombardment, but lighter guns are not. Also fits with an alternate theory for the Rebels scene, that it was one of the light cruisers, not a Star Destroyer, taking shots at Kanan.
Were any light cruisers present at the battle besides the Interdictor? I don't recall seeing any.
I'd swear there were some, but DisneyXD doesn't have season 3 on their page anymore so I can't pull it up.

Anyway, ISDs do have medium turbolaser batteries, so if Thrawn was using the heavies on Chopper Base, the mediums might have been used to take shots at Kanan. So the same basic theory could still apply.
You're right, there were some; just easy to miss. One is on screen for about a second at 1:22 of this video of the battle.

Anyway, which comic are the panels posted in this thread being drawn from? I have a need to cite it.
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