David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-09 07:58pm

Hiring Benioff and Weis says yes.

It being Disney says no.

Those two things together is just strange.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Elfdart » 2018-02-09 08:05pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-02-08 03:05am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-06 05:20pm
Surprised they're still going with the Johnson trilogy, given the fan backlash to TLJ. Pleasantly surprised, on the whole, but surprised.
Luckily for everyone that's because the 'fan backlash' is a storm in an internet teacup, not an actual real thing that Disney/Lucasfilm would ever be concerned about.

Anyway, good for them. If nothing else, they're very talented producers.
They spent over $350 million on TFA alone as a handjob for disgruntled neckbeards and internet misogynists.

Vympel wrote:
2018-02-09 05:10am
Patroklos wrote:
2018-02-08 08:41am
How are those prequel DVD sales doing again? Are they still pumping out Anakin action figures?
*checks mediocre critical reception of prequels, compares them to far superior reception of sequels*

Tee-hee. People who think that a handful of "but muh childhood" internet whiners on reddit are representative of the mainstream response to a film are funny.
Almost as funny as Stoklassholes.

Back on subject: There's nothing wrong with D&D producing, since I doubt Lucasfilm would let them include any rape scenes, let alone extra ones like they did with GoT.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-09 08:13pm

Elfdart wrote:
2018-02-09 08:05pm
Vympel wrote:
2018-02-08 03:05am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-06 05:20pm
Surprised they're still going with the Johnson trilogy, given the fan backlash to TLJ. Pleasantly surprised, on the whole, but surprised.
Luckily for everyone that's because the 'fan backlash' is a storm in an internet teacup, not an actual real thing that Disney/Lucasfilm would ever be concerned about.

Anyway, good for them. If nothing else, they're very talented producers.
They spent over $350 million on TFA alone as a handjob for disgruntled neckbeards and internet misogynists.
I'm going to have to ask how TFA qualifies as "a handjob for... internet misogynists."

Given that when I see misogynists commenting on the film, its usually then whining about how SJWs have taken over Star Wars because women/black people.

Edit: I mean, really, unless I'm totally misunderstanding what you meant to say, which I suppose is possible, this is probably the single most random and baffling criticism of TFA I've ever seen. Which is saying something.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Vympel » 2018-02-09 08:56pm

GuppyShark wrote:
2018-02-09 09:53am
Disney has been leaning on critics to get favourable reviews, and we're still pretending said reviews are meaningful? I'm not seeing another of their films until I see positive critical and audience scores (same for DC, if anyone think I'm playing favorites).
LOL what? An article which says Disney banned the LA Times from preview screenings for reporting on their business dealings in Anaheim - and then was forced to reverse it - due to extensive media backlash set out in the very article which you are linking - is presented as "leaning on critics to get favorable reviews".

Do you not see how:

a. The LA Time's banning from press screenings was due to a matter that had nothing to do with film reviews; and
b. That Disney was forced to reverse themselves due to extensive media pressure acts as a standing refutation to this totally inane* conspiracy theory bullshit generally?

*Let's pretend that this article isn't a rebuttal of this absurd theory, even though it clearly is. How many people have to be complict in this conspiracy theory and remain silent about it? Yeah.

It's the 9/11 Trutherism of film discourse.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-09 09:08pm

Angry fans lie (or, more charitably, see what they want/expect to see) in order to justify their hostility This isn't news.

If they're peddling a false or dubious accusation of journalistic integrity being undermined, then it also has disturbing echoes of Gamergate.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by GuppyShark » 2018-02-09 09:28pm

Point conceded completely.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Vympel » 2018-02-09 09:42pm

GuppyShark wrote:
2018-02-09 09:28pm
Point conceded completely.
*gives the thumbs up*
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Lord Insanity » 2018-02-09 11:33pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-02-08 08:41am
How are those prequel DVD sales doing again? Are they still pumping out Anakin action figures?
Well I don't know about action figures (because I don't care about those) but LEGO is pumping out a new Anakin's Jedi Starfighter set in the summer (2018). They still make various prequel and Clone Wars based sets along with their OT offerings. There is a new Grevious vs Mace Windu set that just came out. :wtf:

Based on my local stores the set based on The Last Jedi that is selling out everywhere is Luke's hut with Rey.


As far as the original point of the thread is concerned... I can't see Benioff and Weiss doing any worse than Sequel Trilogy so far. I rather suspect they would be a significant improvement.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-10 01:34pm

I think this could actually be a good move.

If I were to sum up the primary failings of the ST films so far, it would be this:

TFA: Too similar to the OT (especially ANH), and too reliant on plot-contrivances to cover its underdeveloped plot (partly due to cutting stuff, like the New Republic political stuff, that might have offended the Prequel bashers).

TLJ: Too concerned with trying to cleverly subvert and play with audience expectations, at the expense of either being consistent with TFA, or telling its own story.

Both of these, while seemingly contradictory flaws, appear to have the same root cause: the film is being made, in part, as a reaction to whichever portion of the fanbase whined loudest about the preceding film. The result being a franchise which is stylistically, thematically, and narratively inconsistent.

So having the same directors/writers/producers for an entire trilogy might actually help introduce some stability and direction to the franchise. Now, you don't want all of the films in a long-running franchise to just start following the same cookie-cutter format, either. The MCU has gotten too much like that, to its detriment. But I think having the same core people for each film in a trilogy/sub-series, and then having a new group for each trilogy/stand-alone, would be a good idea, probably.

The very worst thing they could do would be to sack Ryan Johnson because some of the fans started whining about TLJ. Because weather you like his work or not, that would signal that they'd learned absolutely nothing from the above- that the franchise has no overall direction or creative integrity, but is simply following the game plan of "appease whichever portion of the fanbase whined loudest about the last film". Which hasn't worked yet, and won't work later.

And would probably lead to a reactionary Alt. Reich Star Wars film sooner or later, if taken to its ultimate conclusion, though I don't think Disney management is that stupid.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-10 02:28pm

I don't think that it's so much the creators directly responding to prior fan backlash, so much as that being the personal styles of each respectively.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-10 02:43pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-02-10 02:28pm
I don't think that it's so much the creators directly responding to prior fan backlash, so much as that being the personal styles of each respectively.
Perhaps. But it certainly gives the impression of pandering, and in any case, it reinforces the point about the dangers of having different writers and directors for different films within the same story/trilogy- wildly differing styles and directors being too quick to disregard or retconning what their predecessor set up.

Exacerbated if there is a lack of strong editorial oversight from the top.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by CaoCao » 2018-02-10 07:35pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 01:34pm
Both of these, while seemingly contradictory flaws, appear to have the same root cause: the film is being made, in part, as a reaction to whichever portion of the fanbase whined loudest about the preceding film. The result being a franchise which is stylistically, thematically, and narratively inconsistent.
I don't think that's true. Main fan backlash on TFA was that it was too derivative of ANH, and that Rey was a Marie Sue. TLJ is very derivative of TESB (with a touch of RotJ) and Rey remains Mary Sueish (even though it's not as noticeable, thanks to the lack of plot). I agree with Q99 in that it's mostly a matter of styles.

Hell maybe the twists in TLJ were an attempt to emulate TESB on the "Luke I'm your father", but so overdone that it ended in a trainwreck.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 01:34pm
So having the same directors/writers/producers for an entire trilogy might actually help introduce some stability and direction to the franchise. Now, you don't want all of the films in a long-running franchise to just start following the same cookie-cutter format, either. The MCU has gotten too much like that, to its detriment. But I think having the same core people for each film in a trilogy/sub-series, and then having a new group for each trilogy/stand-alone, would be a good idea, probably.
I would agree, if they brought some good writer like GRRM, Zhan, or someone else. Benioff and Weiss are very good adapting material for the small screen, and I would vouch for them in making a series of movies.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 01:34pm
The very worst thing they could do would be to sack Ryan Johnson because some of the fans started whining about TLJ. Because weather you like his work or not, that would signal that they'd learned absolutely nothing from the above- that the franchise has no overall direction or creative integrity, but is simply following the game plan of "appease whichever portion of the fanbase whined loudest about the last film". Which hasn't worked yet, and won't work later.
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing on ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-10 07:46pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-02-10 07:35pm
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing on ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.
I disagree. As much as I have issues with TLJ, the problem lies with the set-up given by TFA. There's literally no way you could have done anything good because you either copy ESB or do something that goes against fan's expectations and causes a massive ruckus online.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-10 08:13pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-02-10 07:35pm
I don't think that's true. Main fan backlash on TFA was that it was too derivative of ANH, and that Rey was a Marie Sue. TLJ is very derivative of TESB (with a touch of RotJ) and Rey remains Mary Sueish (even though it's not as noticeable, thanks to the lack of plot). I agree with Q99 in that it's mostly a matter of styles.
"Rey is a Sue" is and always was bullshit, but yes, it is one of the more high-profile complaints.

I disagree that The Last Jedi is highly derivative of Empire Strikes Back. There are allusions/parallels to both Empire and Jedi (and KotOR, just like TFA), but not to the point of being almost a point by point outline of the same basic plot, as TFA largely was to A New Hope (aside from the final confrontation with Kylo).
Hell maybe the twists in TLJ were an attempt to emulate TESB on the "Luke I'm your father", but so overdone that it ended in a trainwreck.
I very much doubt it. If anything, the big twist about Rey's parentage was a deliberate subversion of "I am your father."

This is part of what annoys me so much about the critics. So many of the criticisms don't actually fit what's on-screen at all, which tells me that either the critics are being dishonest and may have an ulterior motive, or that they wrote off the movie before they ever saw it, and are seeing what they expect to see.
I would agree, if they brought some good writer like GRRM, Zhan, or someone else. Benioff and Weiss are very good adapting material for the small screen, and I would vouch for them in making a series of movies.
I've got no strong feelings either way on Benioff or Weiss as writers (and don't particularly care for GRRM), but other than that, agreed. I'd love a Star Wars trilogy written by Zahn.
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing on ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.
If true, that might be a valid financial reason for Disney to replace him, but it is not in any way a measure of artistic quality. This is a flat-out appeal to popularity fallacy.

I will also note that TLJ was the highest-grossing film of 2017, and that relative to other Star Wars films, according to Wikipedia, it is right in the middle of the pack, even adjusted for inflation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Without adjusting for inflation, it ranks ahead of every film in the franchise but TFA.

Adjusted for inflation (information only provided for North American box office), it ranks ahead of Episodes II and III, Rogue One, and The Clone Wars.

By all time box-office ranking: Number 9, again ahead of every film but TFA.

Yeah, its a drop in ticket sales compared to TFA- but no matter how good it was, TLJ was never realistically going to out-sell TFA, because TFA was the first new Star Wars movie in a decade, the sequel people had been waiting for for decades, and second films in a Star Wars trilogy have always grossed less than the first. TLJ is fitting a pattern going right back to ESB. Hell, each OT film grossed less than the previous one.

So this is not only an AtP fallacy- its at best a highly misleading presentation of the evidence. A misleading presentation you are engaging in to try to advocate ruining a man's career because he made a movie you didn't personally like. When based on the actual math, it would arguably be against Disney's interest to do so.

I mean, by the reasoning you appear to be using here, Empire Strikes Back was a worse movie than Phantom Menace (or only marginally better, adjusted for inflation). Let that sink in.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by eMeM » 2018-02-11 06:56am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm

If true, that might be a valid financial reason for Disney to replace him, but it is not in any way a measure of artistic quality. This is a flat-out appeal to popularity fallacy.

I will also note that TLJ was the highest-grossing film of 2017, and that relative to other Star Wars films, according to Wikipedia, it is right in the middle of the pack, even adjusted for inflation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Without adjusting for inflation, it ranks ahead of every film in the franchise but TFA.

Adjusted for inflation (information only provided for North American box office), it ranks ahead of Episodes II and III, Rogue One, and The Clone Wars.

By all time box-office ranking: Number 9, again ahead of every film but TFA.

Yeah, its a drop in ticket sales compared to TFA- but no matter how good it was, TLJ was never realistically going to out-sell TFA, because TFA was the first new Star Wars movie in a decade, the sequel people had been waiting for for decades, and second films in a Star Wars trilogy have always grossed less than the first. TLJ is fitting a pattern going right back to ESB. Hell, each OT film grossed less than the previous one.

So this is not only an AtP fallacy- its at best a highly misleading presentation of the evidence. A misleading presentation you are engaging in to try to advocate ruining a man's career because he made a movie you didn't personally like. When based on the actual math, it would arguably be against Disney's interest to do so.

I mean, by the reasoning you appear to be using here, Empire Strikes Back was a worse movie than Phantom Menace (or only marginally better, adjusted for inflation). Let that sink in.

He's not talking about box office total, he's talking about the drop off after the first weekend. Of course a massive number of people are going to see a Star Wars movie the openinng night, especially cosidering the bafflingly high scores critics gave it. First week is a meaningless merit to judge how well liked a film is, it's purely based on marketing.

The second week is when it starts to matter if the movie was well recieved, because that's when people who have seen it influence those who didn't, and decide if they want to see it more than once.

TLJ has the worst second weekend drop in the entire franchise. Second weekend saw over 67% drop in ticket sales, which is worse than every single Star Wars movie, including The Clone Wars (61%).

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-11 07:31pm

eMeM wrote:
2018-02-11 06:56am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm

If true, that might be a valid financial reason for Disney to replace him, but it is not in any way a measure of artistic quality. This is a flat-out appeal to popularity fallacy.

I will also note that TLJ was the highest-grossing film of 2017, and that relative to other Star Wars films, according to Wikipedia, it is right in the middle of the pack, even adjusted for inflation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Without adjusting for inflation, it ranks ahead of every film in the franchise but TFA.

Adjusted for inflation (information only provided for North American box office), it ranks ahead of Episodes II and III, Rogue One, and The Clone Wars.

By all time box-office ranking: Number 9, again ahead of every film but TFA.

Yeah, its a drop in ticket sales compared to TFA- but no matter how good it was, TLJ was never realistically going to out-sell TFA, because TFA was the first new Star Wars movie in a decade, the sequel people had been waiting for for decades, and second films in a Star Wars trilogy have always grossed less than the first. TLJ is fitting a pattern going right back to ESB. Hell, each OT film grossed less than the previous one.

So this is not only an AtP fallacy- its at best a highly misleading presentation of the evidence. A misleading presentation you are engaging in to try to advocate ruining a man's career because he made a movie you didn't personally like. When based on the actual math, it would arguably be against Disney's interest to do so.

I mean, by the reasoning you appear to be using here, Empire Strikes Back was a worse movie than Phantom Menace (or only marginally better, adjusted for inflation). Let that sink in.

He's not talking about box office total, he's talking about the drop off after the first weekend. Of course a massive number of people are going to see a Star Wars movie the openinng night, especially cosidering the bafflingly high scores critics gave it. First week is a meaningless merit to judge how well liked a film is, it's purely based on marketing.
I am not talking about opening weekend either- I am talking about total, over a period of months (or for the older films, years). Opening weekend is a part of that, but only part. Do not conflate the two, please.

I will also note that I at least posted stats. to back up my position.

In any case, all Star Wars films have a good opening weekend, I'm sure- unless TLJ's was much better than normal (which would suggest that most people were not nearly as pissed off by TFA as the die-hard ST bashers, incidentally), then a strong opening weekend alone does not account for TLJ being near the top, or in the middle, of the pack (depending on weather or not one adjusts for inflation).
The second week is when it starts to matter if the movie was well recieved, because that's when people who have seen it influence those who didn't, and decide if they want to see it more than once.

TLJ has the worst second weekend drop in the entire franchise. Second weekend saw over 67% drop in ticket sales, which is worse than every single Star Wars movie, including The Clone Wars (61%).
Link please.

But let's say you're correct. TLJ experienced a huge second week drop-off. Well, ticket sales are not and never will be a measure of artistic quality. They are a measure of financial viability, which is something for Disney to concern itself with, but hardly the only measure (merchandise sales, video sales, Netflix sales, etc. all matter, as does the film's budget). Do not make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation, either: the film industry as a whole is facing challenges from the internet which may dampen ticket sales, in addition to any other economic factors. So, conceivably, might a barrage of negative reviews from bitter OT fans, convincing many not to give the film a chance.

And ultimately, if Star Wars keeps drawing in huge crowds when it opens, its going to keep making money. If audiences stop bothering to come to the new movie because they hated the last one or more films, then yes, there's a problem. But its obviously too early to tell if TLJ has had that effect. I will note, again, that if the ST bashers are to be believed, then TFA was an awful film, and that should have led to fewer people giving TLJ a chance when it opened. But by your own argument, clearly, it didn't.

So to portray TLJ as a financial failure in order to argue that it is a bad film is fallacious, and doing it in order to argue that Johnson should be fired is, at best, premature and based on shaky evidence. Or if there is stronger evidence for that conclusion, nobody has cited it here.

Oh, and this is purely anecdotal, of course, but I first tried to see TLJ in the theatre after Christmas, when it had been out for weeks. The first show I tried to go to was sold out. :D
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Vympel » 2018-02-12 03:56am

The entire argument about TLJ's box office is a bunch of bullshit. What weekend it drops compared to other films in the franchise is irrelevant, you can compare it to any other film in the franchise and cherry pick a narrative out of that. All that matters is its overall performance. It made like 5.75x its production budget and performed as a No.2 Star Wars film generally does - and it was in a far more competitive environment than TFA, which is pretty much the last 'first' Star Wars movie we'll ever see. No one is getting sacked. No one's taking Rian Johnson's trilogy away.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by eMeM » 2018-02-12 09:56am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-11 07:31pm
eMeM wrote:
2018-02-11 06:56am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm

If true, that might be a valid financial reason for Disney to replace him, but it is not in any way a measure of artistic quality. This is a flat-out appeal to popularity fallacy.

I will also note that TLJ was the highest-grossing film of 2017, and that relative to other Star Wars films, according to Wikipedia, it is right in the middle of the pack, even adjusted for inflation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_S ... erformance

Without adjusting for inflation, it ranks ahead of every film in the franchise but TFA.

Adjusted for inflation (information only provided for North American box office), it ranks ahead of Episodes II and III, Rogue One, and The Clone Wars.

By all time box-office ranking: Number 9, again ahead of every film but TFA.

Yeah, its a drop in ticket sales compared to TFA- but no matter how good it was, TLJ was never realistically going to out-sell TFA, because TFA was the first new Star Wars movie in a decade, the sequel people had been waiting for for decades, and second films in a Star Wars trilogy have always grossed less than the first. TLJ is fitting a pattern going right back to ESB. Hell, each OT film grossed less than the previous one.

So this is not only an AtP fallacy- its at best a highly misleading presentation of the evidence. A misleading presentation you are engaging in to try to advocate ruining a man's career because he made a movie you didn't personally like. When based on the actual math, it would arguably be against Disney's interest to do so.

I mean, by the reasoning you appear to be using here, Empire Strikes Back was a worse movie than Phantom Menace (or only marginally better, adjusted for inflation). Let that sink in.
He's not talking about box office total, he's talking about the drop off after the first weekend. Of course a massive number of people are going to see a Star Wars movie the openinng night, especially cosidering the bafflingly high scores critics gave it. First week is a meaningless merit to judge how well liked a film is, it's purely based on marketing.
I am not talking about opening weekend either- I am talking about total, over a period of months (or for the older films, years). Opening weekend is a part of that, but only part. Do not conflate the two, please.

I will also note that I at least posted stats. to back up my position.

In any case, all Star Wars films have a good opening weekend, I'm sure- unless TLJ's was much better than normal (which would suggest that most people were not nearly as pissed off by TFA as the die-hard ST bashers, incidentally), then a strong opening weekend alone does not account for TLJ being near the top, or in the middle, of the pack (depending on weather or not one adjusts for inflation).
Link for you with all the data I posted:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?pa ... rwars8.htm

Now.

Domestic only, because it's easier to find stats:

The Last Jedi:
$220,009,584 opening weekend
$616,694,279 total gross after 8 weeks

35% earned in the opening weekend

The Force Awakens:
$247,966,675 opening weekend
$908,644,964 total gross after 8 weeks

27.2% earned in the opening weekend

Rogue One:
$155,081,681 opening weekend
$525,666,968 total gross after 8 weeks

29.5% earned in the opening weekend

So yes, TLJ had really good marketing and a lot of hype behind it, scoring a huge opening, close to that of TFA, but after 8 weeks we can clearly see that it's not as universally loved as some rabid defenders make it out to be. It's not a small group of fascists rading online rating sites and trolling forums ([dramatic music playing]OR IS IT?!??!?!?!?! We will come to this later.), finances show that there is something not right with the audience retention.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-11 07:31pm
The second week is when it starts to matter if the movie was well recieved, because that's when people who have seen it influence those who didn't, and decide if they want to see it more than once.

TLJ has the worst second weekend drop in the entire franchise. Second weekend saw over 67% drop in ticket sales, which is worse than every single Star Wars movie, including The Clone Wars (61%).
Link please.

But let's say you're correct. TLJ experienced a huge second week drop-off. Well, ticket sales are not and never will be a measure of artistic quality. They are a measure of financial viability, which is something for Disney to concern itself with, but hardly the only measure (merchandise sales, video sales, Netflix sales, etc. all matter, as does the film's budget). Do not make the mistake of confusing correlation with causation, either: the film industry as a whole is facing challenges from the internet which may dampen ticket sales, in addition to any other economic factors. So, conceivably, might a barrage of negative reviews from bitter OT fans, convincing many not to give the film a chance.

And ultimately, if Star Wars keeps drawing in huge crowds when it opens, its going to keep making money. If audiences stop bothering to come to the new movie because they hated the last one or more films, then yes, there's a problem. But its obviously too early to tell if TLJ has had that effect. I will note, again, that if the ST bashers are to be believed, then TFA was an awful film, and that should have led to fewer people giving TLJ a chance when it opened. But by your own argument, clearly, it didn't.

So to portray TLJ as a financial failure in order to argue that it is a bad film is fallacious, and doing it in order to argue that Johnson should be fired is, at best, premature and based on shaky evidence. Or if there is stronger evidence for that conclusion, nobody has cited it here.
Rogue One and The Force awakens aren't ancient history, they'd have faced similar challenges.

I love how someone who gives TLJ a bad review is surely "an angry OT fan" (or a fascist, or more likely a facist pretending to be an angry OT fan, as you suggested in the other thread). There is absolutely no way someone disliked this boring derivative mess you call "movie" for anything reasonable.

I'd like to point out that at no point in my post I suggested Rian Johnson should or will be fired baed on the financial performance of the movie (sadly that's very unlikely) or suggested box office has anything to do with "artistic quality" ( of TLJ :D ).

I only said that the drop off being larger than with other movies suggests that the audience didn't like it as much as other Star Wars movies. As it wasn't obvious from the ratings and discussions everywhere, but as we know those aren't representative because of angry OT fans, alt-Reich, and surely also Russian hackers.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by CaoCao » 2018-02-12 04:46pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-02-10 07:46pm
CaoCao wrote:
2018-02-10 07:35pm
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing on ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.
I disagree. As much as I have issues with TLJ, the problem lies with the set-up given by TFA. There's literally no way you could have done anything good because you either copy ESB or do something that goes against fan's expectations and causes a massive ruckus online.
I agree the empty mystery boxes were a bad setup. One of my gripes with TLJ is the continuous bait and switch, with plot points being completely forgotten.

For instance, TFA ends with Snoke telling Hux to rescue Kylo to train him. This "plot point" shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to resolve, yet it's completely dropped in TLJ as Kylo has 0 training and gets mocked by Snoke. Like this one, there are tons already discussed in other threads.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm
"Rey is a Sue" is and always was bullshit, but yes, it is one of the more high-profile complaints.
My point wasn't to discuss this again, but to mention the complaints I recall from TFA. One that I see had not being addressed.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm
I disagree that The Last Jedi is highly derivative of Empire Strikes Back. There are allusions/parallels to both Empire and Jedi (and KotOR, just like TFA), but not to the point of being almost a point by point outline of the same basic plot, as TFA largely was to A New Hope (aside from the final confrontation with Kylo).
You have:
- Hoth=Crait
- Bespin=Canto Bight
- Dagobah=Ah Too
- MF being chased=Raddus being chased
- Darth Vader entering the rebel base followed by troopers=Kylo entering the resistance base followed by troopers (the style of the scene was quite reminiscent).
- Lando betraying them=DJ betraying them.

And those are hust a few. They had to explain you that "it's salt" (as in "totally not snow").
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm
Hell maybe the twists in TLJ were an attempt to emulate TESB on the "Luke I'm your father", but so overdone that it ended in a trainwreck.
I very much doubt it. If anything, the big twist about Rey's parentage was a deliberate subversion of "I am your father."
I'm not talking about a particular twist, but the amount of them on a single movie. It's like they saw how cool it ended in TESB and wanted to reproduce the effect...but miserably failed. I'm not talking about that particular twist, but that the whole movie was about setting up "points" to subvert them later. Doing that constantly makes people stop caring about the next point you try to bait them with.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:13pm
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing on ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.
If true, that might be a valid financial reason for Disney to replace him, but it is not in any way a measure of artistic quality. This is a flat-out appeal to popularity fallacy.
That's not my meaning, and eMeM already posted about the numbers. What I pointed out, is the decline in tickets sale after premiere week, that indicates a lot of people decided not to give the movie a second view. Which means the movie didn't sit well with fans.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-12 06:39pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-02-12 04:46pm
I agree the empty mystery boxes were a bad setup. One of my gripes with TLJ is the continuous bait and switch, with plot points being completely forgotten.

For instance, TFA ends with Snoke telling Hux to rescue Kylo to train him. This "plot point" shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to resolve, yet it's completely dropped in TLJ as Kylo has 0 training and gets mocked by Snoke. Like this one, there are tons already discussed in other threads.
I'm quite certain Rian Johnson is quite bored with the set-up he's given by JJ Abrams. Either you continue down the path suggested by JJ Abrams and essentially remake ESB, or you are forced to throw everything out and do something new, even if it makes no sense within a larger narrative.

The problem is with the higher-ups at Disney and Lucasfilm having no idea what they want from the SW universe. Marvel had a plan, which is to basically adapt old comic book storylines into movies, with a somewhat definite end goal. Set up individual characters, have them interact with each other in a crossover movie, then continue to build it up to Thanos as this big threat.

Lucasfilm under Disney? They have no idea what direction they are going by giving directors free reign to come up with new storylines everything. What happens if the director for Ep 12 simply disagreed with the director of Ep 10 in regards to the set-up he or she is given? Do they throw everything out of the box?

The fault is less on Rian Johnson but more with Kennedy herself. She's the wrong person to manage the creative direction of SW franchise. I said this before, she's not a story writer nor a world-builder. She's a producer of movies, but not a head-writer/producer of TV shows. Her expertise is completely wrong for a franchise like Star Wars. The job needs to be more of an overall story editor/writer, to lay out an overarching creative vision for the franchise.

Rian Johson is known to be someone who tries and subvert tropes and story-expectation ( Looper is basically one big film about this). If you want him to subvert stuff, he should be the director of Ep 7, not EP 8.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Vympel » 2018-02-12 08:34pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-02-12 04:46pm
For instance, TFA ends with Snoke telling Hux to rescue Kylo to train him. This "plot point" shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to resolve, yet it's completely dropped in TLJ as Kylo has 0 training and gets mocked by Snoke. Like this one, there are tons already discussed in other threads.
This wasn't dropped at all. The completion of Kylo's training is putting Rey in front of him for him to kill her. It's meant to be the culmination of Kylo removing all doubt/conflict and accepting his place.

(it bears repeating: flexing your muscles in the Force dojo is not a thing, and never has been)
You have:
- Hoth=Crait
- Bespin=Canto Bight
- Dagobah=Ah Too
- MF being chased=Raddus being chased
- Darth Vader entering the rebel base followed by troopers=Kylo entering the resistance base followed by troopers (the style of the scene was quite reminiscent).
- Lando betraying them=DJ betraying them.
This is just ridiculously superficial. In what way does Hoth and Crait serve the same function in the story? Bespin and Canto Bight? At least Hoth and Crait has a similar ground battle, but Bespin and Canto Bight? "Both movies have people going to planets so I guess its a TESB rip-off". What?

(and Darth Vader entering the rebel base followed by troopers = Kylo entering the resistance base followed by troopers is just factually wrong. They're shot in a totally different manner. It's actually a homage to Anakin entering the Jedi temple.)

TLJ and TESB's story is nowhere near similar. Referring to superficial similiarties like "there's a chase" is nonsense argument. You might as well say "its in space and there's baddies", its just as meaningless.
That's not my meaning, and eMeM already posted about the numbers. What I pointed out, is the decline in tickets sale after premiere week, that indicates a lot of people decided not to give the movie a second view. Which means the movie didn't sit well with fans.
And there's evidence that this was down to 'fans' staying away? Of course not, because such evidence doesn't actually exist. There's no way to actually objectively measure 'fan' enthusiasm as distinct from the general audience. The same argument could be deployed to say that TESB didn't "sit well with fans" compared to ANH, and it'd be just as baseless.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-13 03:02pm

eMeM wrote:
2018-02-12 09:56am
Link for you with all the data I posted:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?pa ... rwars8.htm

Now.

Domestic only, because it's easier to find stats:

The Last Jedi:
$220,009,584 opening weekend
$616,694,279 total gross after 8 weeks

35% earned in the opening weekend

The Force Awakens:
$247,966,675 opening weekend
$908,644,964 total gross after 8 weeks

27.2% earned in the opening weekend

Rogue One:
$155,081,681 opening weekend
$525,666,968 total gross after 8 weeks

29.5% earned in the opening weekend
Thank you.
So yes, TLJ had really good marketing and a lot of hype behind it, scoring a huge opening, close to that of TFA, but after 8 weeks we can clearly see that it's not as universally loved as some rabid defenders make it out to be. It's not a small group of fascists rading online rating sites and trolling forums ([dramatic music playing]OR IS IT?!??!?!?!?! We will come to this later.), finances show that there is something not right with the audience retention.
:roll:

I never said that anyone who criticized the films was a fascist (I will also note that, sadly, fascists are not really "a small group" in America today, but that is a separate topic). I do not claim that everyone who attacks TLJ is a fascist, nor that the film is "universally loved". I do not believe I have ever claimed any of that, but you if can post a quote where I did say or imply so, I will immediately retract it and apologize.

Time to put up or shut up.
Rogue One and The Force awakens aren't ancient history, they'd have faced similar challenges.
To an extent, yes, though IIRC 2017 was a particularly poor year for ticket sales.
I love how someone who gives TLJ a bad review is surely "an angry OT fan" (or a fascist, or more likely a facist pretending to be an angry OT fan, as you suggested in the other thread). There is absolutely no way someone disliked this boring derivative mess you call "movie" for anything reasonable.
I do not believe and do not claim any of those things. I think that you and others have made an unfortunate practice of taking comments I made that were intended to refer to some people or circumstances, and claiming that they were directed at everyone. Weather that is because you misinterpreted me, or because I was unclear, I cannot say.

At the same time, there can be no doubt that many of those negative reviews you mention (which no doubt contributed to a post-opening weekend drop-off in ticket sales) are written by angry OT fans or fascists. Not all, maybe not even most, but many. That must be taken into account when arguing that there was a negative public response to the film as evidence of its failings. Especially since the angriest trolls tend to disproportionately dominate a conversation on web forums and social media.
I'd like to point out that at no point in my post I suggested Rian Johnson should or will be fired baed on the financial performance of the movie (sadly that's very unlikely) or suggested box office has anything to do with "artistic quality" ( of TLJ :D ).
That is correct. CaoCao argued that, which is how this exchange began:
The problem with Ryan is not the fan backlash on the internet, but that he made a very bad movie and it's showing in ticket sales. Yeap, on premiere week it did extraordinarily well, as it happens with anything Star Wars, but it dropped heavily form that point on (which means the movie objectively had a bad review for moviegoers, regardless of what professional critics say).

It's not about appeasing, it's about correcting a wrong choice.
That last, IIRC, was on the subject of hypothetically firing Johnson. So yes, he absolutely was engaging in an appeal to popularity fallacy, and arguing that a man's career should be destroyed because that man made a film he didn't like.

I tried to refute him, and you then jumped in to defend him and refute my refutation.

I will also note that in this very post I am replying to, you expressed regret that Johnson would likely not be fired, which suggests that you share CaoCao's view that Johnson's firing would be an appropriate response to TLJ.
I only said that the drop off being larger than with other movies suggests that the audience didn't like it as much as other Star Wars movies. As it wasn't obvious from the ratings and discussions everywhere,
I have seen both very positive and very negative responses in abundance. I also think that it is too early to judge what the final assessment of the film will be- both because the angriest and nastiest voices tend to dominate discussions on the internet, and because films often are reevaluated as time passes- even the response to the Prequels seems less vitriolic now, for example, than it did ten or fifteen years ago.

Though again, of course, popularity is not a measure of artistic quality.
but as we know those aren't representative because of angry OT fans, alt-Reich, and surely also Russian hackers.
I never said that. Post quotes, or stop insinuating that that is my position.

Certainly I recall absolutely nothing I said about Russia in this or any other TLJ thread, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic. I can frankly see no point to bringing it up other than to try to mock me for my views on an unrelated topic, or to derail the thread.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by eMeM » 2018-02-13 06:14pm

Yes, I want Rian Johnson fired, not because of financials, not because the reception of the movie, but because for me personally he proved to be a complete hack and I wish someone more talented took over instead. Is it a reasonable position? Obviously not. Is it a natural reaction? I believe so.

I'm not going to agitate in front of LFL headquaters or argue on the internet if it is or is not a good bussiness decision. I simply believe that Star Wars would be better off without him.


I can play this game too.

I said "some rabid defenders", I didn't point any fingers. Maybe even there aren't any on this board, who knows, I'm just sharing my observation that many of those people considers the ratings of the movie to be some form of nazi conspiracy, while finances and discussion boards suggest that the movie indeed was very divisive for multitude of reasons.

The only point at which I accused you directly was this:

"I love how someone who gives TLJ a bad review is surely "an angry OT fan" (or a fascist, or more likely a facist pretending to be an angry OT fan, as you suggested in the other thread). "

I'm refering to this:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:39pm
fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-02-10 05:13pm
"fan whiner bullshit"

There's several types of whining about the sequels
1) from some fringe element that thinks having non-white people in SW is anathema - they can go fuck themselves
2) uberfanboys that don't like their sacred cows getting slaughtered
3) people that don't like the movies because they think they are bad movies

Don't lump them all together, because that's a fucking stupid thing to do if you actually care about the franchise.
No, they're not all the same, but they sometimes overlap, and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?).
But of course you used "may sometimes" so you are not accusing anyone!

Yet the implication is there.

Honesty time. What's the point of this:
"and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?)"
I find it ironic that you write about debating honestly in the same line you pull this shit. Why would you write that if not to undermine legitimate critique of the movie? Maybe that's my poor English but what I see here is you saying that everyone who disliked the movie, even if he presents good arguments, might be (but you're not saying he is) a nazi who just shields his bigotry with those good arguments, but in fact he hates the movie because of nazi reasons.

How can you write something like this and act suprised when people feel insulted?

I won't dig up ancient threads because I can't be bothered, feel free to dismiss me due to lack of evidence, but I as long as I'm on this board I associate you with this style of argumentation by smuggling non-direct, yet thinly veiled nazi accusations into your posts, especially whenever our Lady And Saviour Rey comes up, but in many other situations too.

I believe it is very harmful to any discussion, and I see this "style" more and more often all over the internet, which is depressing. Please stop.

Sorry for off topic.

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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-13 06:42pm

eMeM wrote:
2018-02-13 06:14pm
Yes, I want Rian Johnson fired, not because of financials, not because the reception of the movie, but because for me personally he proved to be a complete hack and I wish someone more talented took over instead. Is it a reasonable position? Obviously not. Is it a natural reaction? I believe so.
In my opinion, wanting a man's career to be damaged because you personally didn't like his work seems rather petty, but you are entitled to your opinion. Just so long as we're clear that it has no objective basis.
I'm not going to agitate in front of LFL headquaters or argue on the internet if it is or is not a good bussiness decision. I simply believe that Star Wars would be better off without him.
And I think that Star Wars would be better off if it didn't switch between directors with wildly different styles after every film. Different directors for different series and stand-alones, but one director and writer/writing team per series would probably give the franchise more stability and consistency in style, themes, and plot, I think.
I can play this game too.

I said "some rabid defenders", I didn't point any fingers. Maybe even there aren't any on this board, who knows, I'm just sharing my observation that many of those people considers the ratings of the movie to be some form of nazi conspiracy, while finances and discussion boards suggest that the movie indeed was very divisive for multitude of reasons.
I'd say that in your case, it was very obvious that it was directed at me, and the blatant sarcasm of this "denial" confirms it.
The only point at which I accused you directly was this:

"I love how someone who gives TLJ a bad review is surely "an angry OT fan" (or a fascist, or more likely a facist pretending to be an angry OT fan, as you suggested in the other thread). "

I'm refering to this:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-10 08:39pm
fractalsponge1 wrote:
2018-02-10 05:13pm
"fan whiner bullshit"

There's several types of whining about the sequels
1) from some fringe element that thinks having non-white people in SW is anathema - they can go fuck themselves
2) uberfanboys that don't like their sacred cows getting slaughtered
3) people that don't like the movies because they think they are bad movies

Don't lump them all together, because that's a fucking stupid thing to do if you actually care about the franchise.
No, they're not all the same, but they sometimes overlap, and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?).
But of course you used "may sometimes" so you are not accusing anyone!

Yet the implication is there.
Only if you choose to read that implication into it.

I acknowledged that there were multiple reasons why people criticized the film, but added a reminder that it can sometimes be difficult to distinguish between them. In what way, other than paranoid delusions or deliberate libel, does that amount to an "implication" that anyone who criticizes the film is a fascist (or an "angry OT fan", for that matter)?

Yes, of course political extremists and bigots sometimes pretend to be something other than what they are. If you've ever read the phrase "I'm not racist, but (followed by something racist).", you've likely seen this phenomenon in action. That does not mean that everyone is actually a fascist, obviously.
Honesty time.
If you feel I'm being dishonest, report me. Don't just passive-aggressively imply it.
What's the point of this:
"and 1) may sometimes masquerade as 2) and 3) (Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly- who knew?)"
I find it ironic that you write about debating honestly in the same line you pull this shit. Why would you write that if not to undermine legitimate critique of the movie?
Because... Alt. Reich types don't debate honestly. That it can be hard to tell when someone is debating in bad faith. The statement meant exactly what it said. Going from that to "TRR thinks everyone who criticizes TLJ is secretly a Nazi" is a leap you made, not me.

You are engaging in a circular argument here:

"You must have been referring to every single person who criticizes the film! How do I know? Because there's no reason that you'd say it other than to attack every single person who criticized the film!" :roll:
Maybe that's my poor English but what I see here is you saying that everyone who disliked the movie, even if he presents good arguments, might be (but you're not saying he is) a nazi who just shields his bigotry with those good arguments, but in fact he hates the movie because of nazi reasons.

How can you write something like this and act suprised when people feel insulted?
You are reading into my posts a meaning that is not there, and certainly was not stated, because (by your own admission), you assume that this is what I will do- which creates a rather circular situation. You assume I'm accusing everyone who disagrees with me of being a Nazi. You accuse me in turn. Which further contributes to me having a reputation as someone who accuses anyone who disagrees with him of being a Nazi.

See the problem? At this point, I have a negative reputation which appears to be entirely self-sustaining, regardless of what I actually say.
I won't dig up ancient threads because I can't be bothered, feel free to dismiss me due to lack of evidence, but I as long as I'm on this board I associate you with this style of argumentation by smuggling non-direct, yet thinly veiled nazi accusations into your posts, especially whenever our Lady And Saviour Rey comes up, but in many other situations too.
:roll:

In other words: "I can't be bothered to back up the accusations I made against you, but will refuse to retract them, while continuing to imply that they are valid, and hypocritically accuse you of making false insinuations against others."

Or, to put it another way: Concession accepted.

Oh, and you have mistaken "I don't hate Rey" for "I worship Rey". Sorry, I'm not an adherent to the Jedi religion.
Sorry for off topic.
If you're sorry, then maybe next time stay on the actual topic, rather jumping to questionable assumptions about my intent and then doubling down when I refute them. I know I'd be much happier to discuss the films, if I didn't feel obligated to defend myself against what I feel are misrepresentations of my positions.
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Re: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to direct new Star Wars series

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-13 07:34pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-13 06:42pm
eMeM wrote:
2018-02-13 06:14pm
Yes, I want Rian Johnson fired, not because of financials, not because the reception of the movie, but because for me personally he proved to be a complete hack and I wish someone more talented took over instead. Is it a reasonable position? Obviously not. Is it a natural reaction? I believe so.
In my opinion, wanting a man's career to be damaged because you personally didn't like his work seems rather petty, but you are entitled to your opinion. Just so long as we're clear that it has no objective basis.
I mean, to be fair, it's not like hurting his career is the goal, just a side-effect of moving him off for artistic reasons. And it's not like he's going to hurt for work even if he didn't have the new trilogy.
And I think that Star Wars would be better off if it didn't switch between directors with wildly different styles after every film. Different directors for different series and stand-alones, but one director and writer/writing team per series would probably give the franchise more stability and consistency in style, themes, and plot, I think.
While I agree with this, I also think it needs to be the right kind of creators- someone who can do the worldbuilding at this point is sorely needed, IMO.

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