Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

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Who is the most powerful Force User in the Disney canon?

Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sideous.
10
37%
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.
4
15%
Master Mace Windu.
2
7%
Master Yoda.
2
7%
Master Luke Skywalker.
5
19%
Supreme Leader Snoke.
1
4%
Mother Talzin (Nightsisters).
0
No votes
Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.
1
4%
Rey Nobody. ;)
2
7%
Other.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 27

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The Romulan Republic
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Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-22 03:43pm

Given the debates around Rey's performance as a Jedi, and the various previously unprecedented uses of the Force in TLJ, as well as the decanonization of a lot of EU material a few years back, it seemed a good time to revisit this question.

The poll includes only character who appear or are referenced in the films and TV shows (and does not include the Father, Son, and Daughter from The Clone Wars' Mortis arc, due to their nature being somewhat ambiguous). However, the "other" category exists if you feel that there is a character missing from the poll who deserves to be counted in the big leagues.

"powerful" for the purposes of this thread should take into account both innate potential and level of skill/training/experience eventually acquired. Character opinions can be taken into account, but conclusions should be based primarily on observed feats or material evidence such as midichlorian counts.

For my part, going off their performances and attributed capabilities in the films and TV shows, I'd give the title either to Sideous, if one attributes the Galaxy-wide shroud of the Dark Side directly to his powers, or else to Luke, Snoke, or Yoda in The Last Jedi. (possibly Plageius, as well).

Anakin had the potential to be the strongest, perhaps, based on his role as the Chosen One and his midichlorian count, but never fully realized it.

Rey may surpass them all in time, given her rapid acquisition of strength and skill in the Force, but I don't think she yet has the experience or depth of understanding of the Force to be on the very top tier (note her complete inability to counter Snoke's telekinetic attacks in TLJ).

I'd probably tentatively vote for either Luke or Yoda at this time, based on the available evidence of which I am aware (yes, Yoda lost his duel to Sideous- but whatever the RotS novelization says, that always struck me as a very close fight, and Sideous fortunately never learned how to throw lightning bolts from beyond the grave ;) ).
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-27 04:49pm

Well, voted for Master Luke, though I think you could make a more or less equally strong case for Palpatine or Yoda.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-27 05:36pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 03:43pm
Given the debates around Rey's performance as a Jedi, and the various previously unprecedented uses of the Force in TLJ, as well as the decanonization of a lot of EU material a few years back, it seemed a good time to revisit this question.

The poll includes only character who appear or are referenced in the films and TV shows (and does not include the Father, Son, and Daughter from The Clone Wars' Mortis arc, due to their nature being somewhat ambiguous). However, the "other" category exists if you feel that there is a character missing from the poll who deserves to be counted in the big leagues.

"powerful" for the purposes of this thread should take into account both innate potential and level of skill/training/experience eventually acquired. Character opinions can be taken into account, but conclusions should be based primarily on observed feats or material evidence such as midichlorian counts.
Big question:

Are we thinking in terms of the characters 'in their prime,' at the peak of their powers? Or what? For example, you can make a case that both Vader and Palpatine were less powerful at the time of their death than they were in Episode III.

Also, I refuse to acknowledge that Palpatine's first name is "Sheev." Yuck. :P
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-27 06:20pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-27 05:36pm
Are we thinking in terms of the characters 'in their prime,' at the peak of their powers? Or what? For example, you can make a case that both Vader and Palpatine were less powerful at the time of their death than they were in Episode III.
Go with the character at their peak. In that case, I would say that Vader's is probably Rebels/Rogue One era, while Palpatine's is probably RotS (for on-screen appearances at least, and discounting Legends).
Also, I refuse to acknowledge that Palpatine's first name is "Sheev." Yuck. :P
It could have been worse. Star Wars names range from the mind-numbingly stupid, to the awesome, to the mundane, to the just plain silly.

Edit: To be more accurate, for Vader, the peak is probably Revenge of the Sith on Mustafar for power, but I'd say that post-suit Vader seems more skilled, or at least less reckless and more self-controlled.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-27 06:25pm

Also: I'd really, really have liked to see a duel between Palpatine and The Last Jedi Luke. It would almost have been worth bringing back cloned Palpatine bullshit. Almost.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-27 08:11pm

I think that we've seen a dramatic power inflation in the new trilogy. Establishing a mind link across the stars, stopping bolts in mid-air, scrubbing the floor with someone from lightyears away... It seems inflated.

I'm thinking Palpatine would have to be one of the strongest and I suspect his powers were less visual and more mental. I would think he's heavily into doing the force vision thing to guide his actions and keep a step ahead of his enemies. That might not look as showy as flipping about with a lightsaber or chucking rocks about.

The prequels had showier Jedi but also better budgeting and computers for the effects and choreography. So it's hard to say just how Luke's abilities would have been depicted if the OT had access to similar technology.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-27 10:53pm

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-27 08:11pm
I think that we've seen a dramatic power inflation in the new trilogy. Establishing a mind link across the stars, stopping bolts in mid-air, scrubbing the floor with someone from lightyears away... It seems inflated.
Maybe the Force awakened? :P
I'm thinking Palpatine would have to be one of the strongest and I suspect his powers were less visual and more mental. I would think he's heavily into doing the force vision thing to guide his actions and keep a step ahead of his enemies. That might not look as showy as flipping about with a lightsaber or chucking rocks about.
True. And it's noteworthy that in the field of prescience, Palpatine DID manage to outmatch the entire Jedi Order, accurately using his own prescience to predict and manipulate future events while clouding the prescience of the combined Jedi masters. That's a pretty pure test of relative Force ability, and Palpatine won.
The prequels had showier Jedi but also better budgeting and computers for the effects and choreography. So it's hard to say just how Luke's abilities would have been depicted if the OT had access to similar technology.
Very true.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-01-28 04:59am

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-27 08:11pm
I think that we've seen a dramatic power inflation in the new trilogy. Establishing a mind link across the stars, stopping bolts in mid-air, scrubbing the floor with someone from lightyears away... It seems inflated.
You've missed out the highest-end example - Ren drawing the conclusion that Luke being turbolaser-proof was a plausible extrapolation of his known abilities. He may not be the sharpest knife in the draw, but he seems to know his stuff when it comes to Force skills.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Gandalf » 2018-01-28 10:21am

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-27 10:53pm
jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-27 08:11pm
I think that we've seen a dramatic power inflation in the new trilogy. Establishing a mind link across the stars, stopping bolts in mid-air, scrubbing the floor with someone from lightyears away... It seems inflated.
Maybe the Force awakened? :P
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Batman » 2018-01-28 06:49pm

In defense of Kylo, until Luke ignored being stabbed I thought he pulled a Force Superman too. Nevermind the insane stunts from the Legends EU, 'the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.'
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-28 06:56pm

Batman wrote:
2018-01-28 06:49pm
In defense of Kylo, until Luke ignored being stabbed I thought he pulled a Force Superman too. Nevermind the insane stunts from the Legends EU, 'the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.'
Yeah, but I wouldn't take that as an analysis of raw force, because as amazing as some of the Force feats are, especially in TLJ, we've never seen a Jedi or Sith who could blow up planets, or shrug off a Base Delta Zero. If Palpatine could have done that, he wouldn't have needed a Death Star.

The real power of the Force is subtler- the ability to see things others can't, to manipulate minds, even to transcend death to some extent. I think Vader understood this when he said those words. After all, he'd seen it in action.

Palpatine didn't destroy the Republic and the old Jedi Order by walking into the Senate or the Jedi Temple, pulling out a lightsaber, and kicking ass. If he'd tried... he would have killed a few guys, or a few dozen guys, or maybe even a few hundred guys if he'd gone to town in the middle of the Senate. And then every Jedi Master on Coruscant would have shown up, probably with a few thousand security guys, and kicked his ass.

He won, rather, by playing the long game, and by using the Force to augment his political skills, to maneuver the Jedi into a position where he could cripple them with one surprise blow.

I don't know if Palpatine had the most raw power, but he knew how to use the Dark Side to the greatest effect. So I think in that sense, he takes it in terms of skill, at any rate.

Edit: I think Luke got this, too, in the end- from a Light Side perspective. He never won his battles by using the Force to win a contest of brute power. He used it in tandem with moral leadership, symbolism and illusion, and a keen grasp of his enemies' psychology. Both in his duel with Kylo Ren, and early on, in his turning Vader at Endor- winning battles he likely never could have won by brute force.

In that sense, I think that Luke was very much Palpatine's opposite number on the Light Side.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Batman » 2018-01-28 07:24pm

I didn't mean to imply Luke had that raw power (though in the Legends EU he probably had). I meant I can see why Kylo thought he might.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Batman » 2018-01-28 07:28pm

For the Disney canon , raw power as displayed (rather than implied) pretty much HAS to go to either Rey or dead Yoda. Moving that much rock/controlling lightning like that pretty much beats everything else we've seen Jedi do (as far as I know anyway, still stuck in s3 of TCW)
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-28 07:30pm

I don't know about that. Anyone tried to calculate the relative weight of that giant pillar Yoda stopped from falling on Obi-wan and Anakin in AotC, for example?

Though Rey had to control multiple different objects, which might require more fine control.

Sadly, there's no real way to calculate the power or skill required for Luke's illusion stunt, or Snoke's bridging Rey and Kylo's minds.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-28 07:34pm

Batman wrote:
2018-01-28 07:24pm
I didn't mean to imply Luke had that raw power (though in the Legends EU he probably had). I meant I can see why Kylo thought he might.
Yeah. Kylo seems like someone who would think of Force power first in terms of brute strength, rather than its subtler applications. Hence Luke being able to play him so well. Kylo has a lot of power, but he's amateurish in its application compared to a true master.

He's also probably been dreading/anticipating another clash with Luke for years, and likely has an inflated, larger-than-life view of Luke in his mind, I'd guess.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-28 09:53pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-28 07:30pm
I don't know about that. Anyone tried to calculate the relative weight of that giant pillar Yoda stopped from falling on Obi-wan and Anakin in AotC, for example?

Though Rey had to control multiple different objects, which might require more fine control.

Sadly, there's no real way to calculate the power or skill required for Luke's illusion stunt, or Snoke's bridging Rey and Kylo's minds.
No way to do calculations, but we can qualitatively compare it to other comparable feats.

Like, Obi-Wan could create illusions but they were subtle.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-01-29 08:26am

Is there a canon weight on Luke's X-Wing that Yoda dragged out of a muddy swamp, righted it, and gently set it down a few dozen yards from where it had been stuck? That's got to be the highest TK feat we've seen, right? And that's taking Rey's rock lift into account for one reason: we don' know how she did it.

There are two ways I saw Rey's lifting of the rocks, with one being far more impressive than the other. The least impressive option is she just created some kind of "Force Lift" that picked up all the rocks the way she needed at the same time. Like some supple "wave" of Force that lifted everything. The other, far more impressive, method would be her having the control and ability to levitate and manipulate each rock independently at the same time, which would be bonkers-level of ability for someone so untrained. Since I don't know ho she did it, I kind of think that Yoda focusing on a big-ass fighter craft and doing it while looking half asleep is more impressive.

But all I have to go on is my Mark-I eyeball and my pitiful brain to come to that conclusion.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 03:53pm

Yeah, I'd say that Yoda is still the high-watermark for on-screen TK.

That or Palpatine during the duel with Yoda. IIRC, he was manipulating and tossing multiple Senate pods at Yoda simultaneously.

Actually, now that I think of it, that's probably the most impressive TK feat, as its not only fairly high-end in terms of the weight of the objects being lifted, but involved simultaneously controlling multiple objects. And what likely s it far above Rey's rock throwing in terms of skill is that he did it under combat conditions, while having to counter an opponent.

Note how Rey, by contrast, was utterly unable to counter Snoke's telekinesis against her- probably the single most glaring exception to Rey's otherwise extraordinary Force talents.

IIRC, there was an old idea (not sure if it was canon, or just a fan theory) that a reason that Jedi seldom used TK in duels is that it requires an amount of concentration that is difficult to muster in a combat situation. That would explain the tactics of the non-Force-using General Grievous (surprise and intimidation to overcome Jedi). And it would suggest that while Rey has exceptional power, and exceptional skill for a novice, she hasn't yet achieved the mastery of the Force that allows someone like Snoke, Yoda, Dooku, Vader, or Palpatine to use TK effectively under combat conditions.

So for TK, the high-water marks in the films would likely be:

Dooku vs. Yoda, AotC.
Palpatine vs. Yoda RotS.

As they combined both raw power and fairly complex manipulations under combat conditions.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-01-29 04:21pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-29 03:53pm
So for TK, the high-water marks in the films would likely be:

Dooku vs. Yoda, AotC.
Palpatine vs. Yoda RotS.

As they combined both raw power and fairly complex manipulations under combat conditions.
You can add Vader in ESB to that list - like Dooku he was throwing things around while dueling. It might be the most impressive of the lot in terms of multitasking, as Palpatine wasn't in direct combat while he was throwing pods at Yoda, and Dooku only needed to give the pillar a hard tug to dislodge it and give him time to run away while Yoda held it up. Vader, on the other hand, was in direct combat, and therefore had to dislodge big, well anchored lumps of metal and steer them towards Luke, while avoiding having his head lopped off.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 04:24pm

Yeah, we should probably throw Vader in ESB on that list too, although the objects he was tossing weren't as massive.

I do think that Rebels-RotJ era Vader was, while not the most powerful Force user due to his injuries, at or near the pinnacle in terms of skill, both in terms of using the Force directly and in terms of overall competency.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 05:01pm

On that note, I wonder what Force ghost Anakin would think of his would-be successor, Kylo Ren.

Hah, I can just picture him shaking his head at this idiot amateur, both for falling to the Dark Side, and because he knows that Vader would have probably Force-choked Ren for incompetence by now. And probably also feeling quite a bit of shame over the fact that one of his descendants consciously set out to repeat his mistakes.

The Idiot Side is strong with this one. :D
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Khaat » 2018-01-29 05:13pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-29 05:01pm
On that note, I wonder what Force ghost Anakin would think of his would-be successor, Kylo Ren.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-29 07:44pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
2018-01-28 04:59am
jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-27 08:11pm
I think that we've seen a dramatic power inflation in the new trilogy. Establishing a mind link across the stars, stopping bolts in mid-air, scrubbing the floor with someone from lightyears away... It seems inflated.
You've missed out the highest-end example - Ren drawing the conclusion that Luke being turbolaser-proof was a plausible extrapolation of his known abilities. He may not be the sharpest knife in the draw, but he seems to know his stuff when it comes to Force skills.
I took it to be a sign of his gullibility. Especially seeing as interstellar mind links are a known thing to him, the thought of force projection rather than turbolaser blocking should have been the first thing to spring to mind. The thing that they kept hammering home about him is he's very powerful while being unfocused and undisciplined. Those room-trashing tantrums, insisting on wearing a silly mask, etc. If he were presented as cool, capable, confident, then i think you would be right, he realizes Luke could be turbolaser-proof.

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 07:49pm

You could take it either way. I would see it as indicative that being turbolaser-proof as a Force-user is probably not on-its-face, obviously laughable- which is pretty fucking impressive. Like, Superman-level impressive.

On the other hand, Kylo Ren is not a terribly subtle or perceptive person, and as I said before, probably has an inflated mental image of Luke. I think he's probably spent the last few years dwelling on his confrontation with Luke and obsessing over the eventual rematch, and has probably built up a larger-than-life image of Luke in his head. Which Luke then played to magnificently.

Like I said, Luke wins through using the Force to understand his opponents and engaging their emotional weak points. He's very much like a Light-side Palpatine in that respect.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-29 07:55pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-28 06:56pm
Palpatine didn't destroy the Republic and the old Jedi Order by walking into the Senate or the Jedi Temple, pulling out a lightsaber, and kicking ass. If he'd tried... he would have killed a few guys, or a few dozen guys, or maybe even a few hundred guys if he'd gone to town in the middle of the Senate. And then every Jedi Master on Coruscant would have shown up, probably with a few thousand security guys, and kicked his ass.

He won, rather, by playing the long game, and by using the Force to augment his political skills, to maneuver the Jedi into a position where he could cripple them with one surprise blow.

I don't know if Palpatine had the most raw power, but he knew how to use the Dark Side to the greatest effect. So I think in that sense, he takes it in terms of skill, at any rate.
It's sort of like that old joke about the guy brought into the factory that's shutdown and he has to fix the Big Important Machine. He studies it for twenty minutes, presses one button and presents a bill for $5000. The owner blows a gasket and demands it be itemized. The guy writes down two things. "Pressing button: $1. Knowing which button to press: $4999."

And for someone playing the game at his level, everyone else would seem like rudimentary NPC's, poorly programmed, predictable and worthy of contempt. There would have to be some limits to his prescience, just to keep the story interesting, and the visions should be suitably open to interpretation, like classic Greek oracles. He would have to be on his toes to keep from misreading them. He may have an easier time mind reading people in person but have less accurate reads from lightyears away. This would help him keep control on Coruscant but mean he has to rely more on the intel apparatus when dealing with the Rebellion. His vision for Endor could have shown it would be a decisive battle, regardless of who won, and he felt he took sufficient precautions to make sure victory would be his, discounting the chance it could go the other way.

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