Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

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Who is the most powerful Force User in the Disney canon?

Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sideous.
10
37%
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.
4
15%
Master Mace Windu.
2
7%
Master Yoda.
2
7%
Master Luke Skywalker.
5
19%
Supreme Leader Snoke.
1
4%
Mother Talzin (Nightsisters).
0
No votes
Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.
1
4%
Rey Nobody. ;)
2
7%
Other.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 27

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-29 08:06pm

Well, we've seen that Force precognition is a VERY dicey business- the Jedi mostly got blindsided by Order 66, and Palpatine got blindsided by Vader's betrayal. Rey and Kylo both got duped into thinking that the other would turn by Snoke. Anakin saw Padme dying in childbirth, and basically created a self-fulfilling prophecy trying to prevent it.

Perhaps the greatest sign of Yoda's mastery is that he was smart enough to know and admit that Force precognition is of dubious reliability.

Edit: Probably just too many moving parts to keep track of. Especially when one's own emotional state is clouded, one's own mind is distracted, or ego want/expect to see.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Captain Seafort » 2018-01-30 01:35pm

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-29 07:44pm
I took it to be a sign of his gullibility. Especially seeing as interstellar mind links are a known thing to him, the thought of force projection rather than turbolaser blocking should have been the first thing to spring to mind. The thing that they kept hammering home about him is he's very powerful while being unfocused and undisciplined. Those room-trashing tantrums, insisting on wearing a silly mask, etc. If he were presented as cool, capable, confident, then i think you would be right, he realizes Luke could be turbolaser-proof.
The issue that he is depicted as capable, in terms of his brute-force abilities (no pun intended). He's got an ego like an egg shell and the sort of tight control of his emotions that makes AotC-era Anakin look phlegmatic, but he isn't stupid, and he has excellent knowledge of the physical feats Force-users are capable of. The subtler side of things is where he falls down, which is why Luke was able to fool him - walking into a turbolaser barrage of some lesser scale and shrugging it off may be something he could do (hence why he ordered an enormous concentration of fire), it's the sort of thing he would do, ergo he assumes that that's what Luke would do.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-31 02:56pm

Perhaps. Though I also still think that its likely that he has an inflated perception of Luke.

Still, it does suggest that a Jedi surviving a massed turbolaser barrage is not, on its face, ludicrous, or beyond the theoretically possible.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-31 03:13pm

I don't know about that. I'd assume that they all just saw it happen and assumed 'oh I guess he can do that?!' and paniced. Even if they wouldn't have thought it plausible before hand. (Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I just wouldn't call this evidence either way) Their minds went to 'he has unprecedented durability through the force rather than 'unprecedented power of illusion'.

It's about there being the Legend Of Luke Skywalker and legend in his power is limitless. The reality is quite different.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-01-31 08:40pm

It depends in part on whether Luke's survival, since he wasn't actually there was as obviously due to illusion to the other characters as it was to the audience. One of the guys who witnessed the barrage even asked, "Do you think you got him?". It's one of those things that's a bit of a case of No-one Could Survive That.

I'm surprised that neither Dooku or Obi-Wan Kenobi made that list, Dooku was one of only two characters that could cast force-lightning and was seemingly a match for Yoda. Weirdly, Kenobi was pretty even with Anakin during their Duel on Mustafar, despite the latter killing Dooku and the former getting his ass handed to him by Dooku, twice.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-31 09:00pm

Dooku possibly should have made the list, though he ultimately lost duels to at least two others on that list, and was almost certainly Sideous's inferior as well.

Kenobi- If I did a poll for "Who is the best tactician" or "Who is the best swordsman", Kenobi would probably be on it. However, (bits of the duel with Anakin aside), I never got the sense that he was supposed to be on the top tier in force power. But perhaps I underestimated him.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-02-01 07:55am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-01-31 08:40pm
. Weirdly, Kenobi was pretty even with Anakin during their Duel on Mustafar, despite the latter killing Dooku and the former getting his ass handed to him by Dooku, twice.
I simply chalked that up to Obi-Wan just knew Anakin well enough from all their time together to be able to hold his own. Not necessarily a case of DBZ power levels. Give Anakin-Vader a few more years to master the Dark Side before getting tossed into a volcano and I bet he would have fared far better.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2018-02-01 05:48pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-31 09:00pm
Dooku possibly should have made the list, though he ultimately lost duels to at least two others on that list, and was almost certainly Sideous's inferior as well.
It's spelt, "Sidious" :mrgreen:

I wouldn't have used a character that only appeared in the TV shows (Talzin) and not in any of the films- I had to Google her as I'd never heard of her. If I had to use a TV character I'd have picked the far more well-known Asajj Ventress instead.
Kenobi- If I did a poll for "Who is the best tactician" or "Who is the best swordsman", Kenobi would probably be on it. However, (bits of the duel with Anakin aside), I never got the sense that he was supposed to be on the top tier in force power. But perhaps I underestimated him.
Kenobi is one of only three characters who could appear as a Force Spirit, which I always associated with the most powerful Jedi.
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-01 06:56pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-02-01 05:48pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-31 09:00pm
Dooku possibly should have made the list, though he ultimately lost duels to at least two others on that list, and was almost certainly Sideous's inferior as well.
It's spelt, "Sidious" :mrgreen:

I wouldn't have used a character that only appeared in the TV shows (Talzin) and not in any of the films- I had to Google her as I'd never heard of her. If I had to use a TV character I'd have picked the far more well-known Asajj Ventress instead.
I tried to pick those who had exhibited exceptional power, skill, or both. While there are occasional moments where she does something really impressive, Ventress usually strikes me as more of an upper-middle-tier talent. Same reason, say, Ashoka isn't on the list.

Though the "other" option is always there for anyone who wants to use it.
Kenobi is one of only three characters who could appear as a Force Spirit, which I always associated with the most powerful Jedi.
That's a pretty good point, but it might be a case of it just being very obscure knowledge, rather than a feat requiring top-level power or skill.

Edit: Admittedly, it is hard to judge, as there are not clear power levels, and the portrayal of Force abilities tends to be highly inconsistent (and is likely heavily influenced by the current state of mind of the Force user in question).
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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-01 09:15pm

Ventress, oddly, in her good showings really performs super-well, being a major threat to Kenobi and Anakin, and yet later on people act like she's notably less threat than Grievous, Maul, or even Savage at times. It's odd.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-01 09:18pm

Yeah, Ventress is hard to place relative to the others. Her high-end feats make her seem Anakin-tier, or nearly so, while at other times she seems less formidable.

Although I admit that there is probably some bias simply because she doesn't have the title of Master/Lord, the notoriety of more major characters, or the hype of someone like Anakin, Luke, Rey, or Kylo Ren, for example.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-02-15 01:39pm

Are we talking combat or in general... like, Magic Force Use? Because in general, Palpatine was able to reduce the powers of the entire Jedi Order. Yet Windu was going to beat him in a straight fight based on the later's use of Vaapad. I mean, I have to assume the novels are still canon.

And Obi-Wan was supposed to be near unassailable on the defensive using Soresu. This is why he constantly gave ground to Anakin, who was supposedly beast-mode on the offensive. This culminated in Obi-Wan baiting Anakin into that final attack. Then again, Dooku also just took him out quickly, but that was also while Obi-Wan was trying for an attack.

Ventress doesn't really rate here since the writers didn't know what to do with her. She holds her own when the plot demands, but she also gets smacked around by Dooku with little difficulty. It's the same problem Grievous faces: he gets near instantly obliterated by a heavy hitter like Windu.

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-15 02:38pm

Yes, Ventress (and Force users in general, for that matter) can be somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes she can take Anakin and Obi-wan together. Other times she's easily beaten.

And yes, Windu is stronger than Palpatine in a one-on-one duel (depending on how one interprets that scene). But Palpatine, I would contend, is arguably more skilled overall, because he manipulated the larger situation most effectively to his advantage. Which is also a measure of Force power, because its doubtful that he could have manipulated the situation like that without the insight given by his Force sensitivity, or without the whole "Shroud of the Dark Side" thing.

Edit: In short, Windu might have been a stronger fighter one on one, but Palpatine used the Force more effectively to achieve overall victory.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by TheFeniX » 2018-02-15 04:12pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-02-15 02:38pm
Yes, Ventress (and Force users in general, for that matter) can be somewhat inconsistent. Sometimes she can take Anakin and Obi-wan together. Other times she's easily beaten.
In the Clone Wars, I think a lot of it had to do with Anakin and Obi-Wan still "coming into their own." Ventress, and others, are routinely able to bait Anakin and Obi-Wan seems to hold back at times or just put himself into incredibly bad situations. They are also being specifically trained to fight Jedi and Jedi tactics hadn't changed much in the 1000 or so years since their last dust-up against the Sith. The Sith evolved, that was a plot-point I recall taking from the novels.

By EP3, Anakin seems pretty well in charge of his emotions, or at least how to use them against his opponent and Obi-Wan seems to have become his Yin to Anakins Yang by focusing on the defensive arts. He gets shut down near immediately after going on the attack against Dooku. You see this same shift, IMO, when he starts trying to actively kill Grievous. He holds off all the lightsabers and blaster bolts, then things get kind of haywire when Greivous retreats and Obi-Wan is hunting him down.

I think Obi-Wan was supposed to just be hard to kill. Like, if your goal is to Kill the Kenobi, you're going to have a bad time. He tends to do exceptionally well in these situations. But they keep sending him out to kill/capture bad guys and that's not really his shtick.

There's probably a really good goddamn reason Soresu makes an appearance in multiple SW games as the "tanking" lightsaber form.
And yes, Windu is stronger than Palpatine in a one-on-one duel (depending on how one interprets that scene). But Palpatine, I would contend, is arguably more skilled overall, because he manipulated the larger situation most effectively to his advantage. Which is also a measure of Force power, because its doubtful that he could have manipulated the situation like that without the insight given by his Force sensitivity, or without the whole "Shroud of the Dark Side" thing.
This is where the whole "stronger" aspect kind of breaks down. I haven't read the novels, only the relevant bits. Yoda could beat up on pretty much any Jedi, but Windu (due to the development of Vaapad) was pretty much the only Jedi in a position to kill Palpy because he turned himself into kind of a void or conduit for the darkside. What Yoda had to absorb, and what tired him, flowed through Windu and back at Palpatine. Based on what I read in the novel, Windu had Palpatine dead to rights until Anakin intervened.

Just like the Jedi prepared to fight the same war against the Sith, Palpatine also might have imagined he was fighting the same Jedi. Look how fast the other Jedi with Windu went down. Meanwhile, Palpatine didn't seem to understand quickly enough how different Windu was compared to other Jedi Masters.
Edit: In short, Windu might have been a stronger fighter one on one, but Palpatine used the Force more effectively to achieve overall victory.
Yea, The Sith, or at least Palpatine, learned from the last few wars against the Jedi. The Jedi were expecting more Darth Mauls, not Palpatines.

I think theoretically Luke was supposedly the strongest natural user of the force. I recall an excerpt that, while being electrocuted to death by the Emperor, he was already instinctively learning how to deflect/absorb it. Starting at a younger age with better teachers and more time, the guy would have been Jedi Jesus or something.

But hey, Starkiller pulled a StarDestroyer out of the sky, so... there's that. Man, who fucking knows?

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Re: Who is the most powerful Force user (Disney canon, The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-15 04:30pm

TheFeniX wrote:
2018-02-15 04:12pm
In the Clone Wars, I think a lot of it had to do with Anakin and Obi-Wan still "coming into their own." Ventress, and others, are routinely able to bait Anakin and Obi-Wan seems to hold back at times or just put himself into incredibly bad situations. They are also being specifically trained to fight Jedi and Jedi tactics hadn't changed much in the 1000 or so years since their last dust-up against the Sith. The Sith evolved, that was a plot-point I recall taking from the novels.
That may be part of it, but I think a big part of the inconsistency is simply that the abilities of a Force user depend heavily on the user's state of mind/emotional state.
By EP3, Anakin seems pretty well in charge of his emotions, or at least how to use them against his opponent and Obi-Wan seems to have become his Yin to Anakins Yang by focusing on the defensive arts. He gets shut down near immediately after going on the attack against Dooku. You see this same shift, IMO, when he starts trying to actively kill Grievous. He holds off all the lightsabers and blaster bolts, then things get kind of haywire when Greivous retreats and Obi-Wan is hunting him down.

I think Obi-Wan was supposed to just be hard to kill. Like, if your goal is to Kill the Kenobi, you're going to have a bad time. He tends to do exceptionally well in these situations. But they keep sending him out to kill/capture bad guys and that's not really his shtick.

There's probably a really good goddamn reason Soresu makes an appearance in multiple SW games as the "tanking" lightsaber form.
Yup.

Though Anakin clearly lacks much emotional control, particularly on Mustafar.
This is where the whole "stronger" aspect kind of breaks down. I haven't read the novels, only the relevant bits. Yoda could beat up on pretty much any Jedi, but Windu (due to the development of Vaapad) was pretty much the only Jedi in a position to kill Palpy because he turned himself into kind of a void or conduit for the darkside. What Yoda had to absorb, and what tired him, flowed through Windu and back at Palpatine. Based on what I read in the novel, Windu had Palpatine dead to rights until Anakin intervened.

Just like the Jedi prepared to fight the same war against the Sith, Palpatine also might have imagined he was fighting the same Jedi. Look how fast the other Jedi with Windu went down. Meanwhile, Palpatine didn't seem to understand quickly enough how different Windu was compared to other Jedi Masters.
Power in the Force is a combination of raw potential, skill (derived from a combination of natural aptitude, training, and experience), and state of mind. Its difficult to impossible to quantify consistently.

But my favorite theory for why those other Jedi went down so fast is that Palpatine was using a sort of localized, intensified "shroud of the Dark Side" effect. I don't know if this has canon basis, or is just a fan theory, or what. But I like it.

If you watch the start of the duel, there's this weird sort of scream from Palpatine as he attacks. And the first two Jedi Palpatine cuts down barely do more than stand their holding their sabers while he kills them. Its not that he's better than them- they barely even try to fight (though that might partly be due to them being in such confined quarters). Kit Fisto at least tries to put up a fight, and Windu is able to defend himself, and eventually gain the upper hand. I'm inclined to take that as Palpatine using a Dark Side technique to actively suppress his opponents' abilities, with the first ones succumbing easily, and the others' greater success being due to either being able to see through it somewhat given time, or else Palpatine not being able to maintain it for long/while dueling, or Windu's Vaapad, or some combination of the preceding.
Yea, The Sith, or at least Palpatine, learned from the last few wars against the Jedi. The Jedi were expecting more Darth Mauls, not Palpatines.

I think theoretically Luke was supposedly the strongest natural user of the force. I recall an excerpt that, while being electrocuted to death by the Emperor, he was already instinctively learning how to deflect/absorb it. Starting at a younger age with better teachers and more time, the guy would have been Jedi Jesus or something.
He basically is in TLJ, anyway. :)

I think the films imply that Anakin would have been the strongest (or at least the strongest of his era, if you go by Snoke's theory that particularly powerful Dark Siders and Lightsiders to oppose them periodically appear). But never reached his full potential due to getting crippled on Mustafar.

Luke might not have as much innate potential, but was better able to realize the potential that he had.
But hey, Starkiller pulled a StarDestroyer out of the sky, so... there's that. Man, who fucking knows?
Again, I think that a lot of the inconsistency is due to circumstances. Plus, I wouldn't take Force Unleashed's depictions of Jedi/Sith feats as canon any more than the original Clone Wars' cartoon's depiction.

Edit: Even if they hadn't both been booted from official canon in their entirety, I mean. :wink:

Which is a shame for Clone Wars. There's pretty much nothing about it story-wise that contradicts, or cannot be neatly slotted in along side, the later Clone Wars series.
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Fuck Civility.

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