EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

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EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-16 03:41pm

Scenario:

Shortly before his final battle, Legends Thrawn is teleported, along with the fleet he had assembled to ambush the Rebels, to the Disney Star Wars galaxy. He arrives one week before the start of TFA, in an uninhabited system in the same sector as Jakku.

Assuming he doesn't end up quickly murdered by his bodyguard, how does Thrawn proceed?

Edit: Added spoiler warning.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by NecronLord » 2018-01-16 03:51pm

He probably uses Yasilmiri to assassinate Rey and Snoke in short order, and finally gets to build the empire he wants.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-16 04:00pm

Yeah, I guess he'd have some Yasilmiri in his fleet, though limited in number (remember, I just gave him the fleet- not his shipyards, planets he captured, the Mount Tantis facility, etc.).

That said, remember that Thrawn will be using ships more than two decades out of date, and will not initially have access to shipyards-he'll have to either purchase or capture any infrastructure. I don't doubt he could, given time, but he won't be able to immediately go conquistador.

Another question: would he kill Rey, or try to turn her to his side? Or Kylo Ren, in the place of C'baoth?

Hmm, I'm actually really interested in the idea of Ren as the new C'baoth.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by NecronLord » 2018-01-16 04:23pm

He'd probably kill them both. He was still a jackbooted thug, even if he was reasonable. Ren is far too unstable to use, and Rey, even if initially tempted, would check out the moment it became clear that Thrawn was okay with any degree of war-crime to get what he wants.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-17 11:28pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-01-16 04:23pm
He'd probably kill them both. He was still a jackbooted thug, even if he was reasonable. Ren is far too unstable to use, and Rey, even if initially tempted, would check out the moment it became clear that Thrawn was okay with any degree of war-crime to get what he wants.
Rey at the start of TFA might be indoctrinatable, maybe- she hadn't yet aligned with any side, and she was tempted somewhat by the Dark Side later.

But you're likely right.

Ren... honestly, is he more unstable than C'baoth? I doubt it.

Edit: He has a lot of self-doubt, and a tendency to throw temper-tantrums. But even then, its interesting to note that, until the end of TLJ, his violent tantrums were usually directed at destroying machinery/equipment, not hurting people. Which is... pretty tame, for a Dark Sider.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-01-17 11:30pm

Why would Thrawn assassinate Rey? Smart as he is, he has literally zero reason to know about her.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-17 11:33pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-01-17 11:30pm
Why would Thrawn assassinate Rey? Smart as he is, he has literally zero reason to know about her.
Obviously, we're discussing how he might regard her if he learned that she was a Force user.

Weather that would be likely to happen... probably depends on weather you consider Rey becoming a Jedi the Will of the Force (some of what Snoke says in TLJ implies this, to my mind, but that's obviously an unreliable source).
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Thanas » 2018-01-18 07:46am

I don't think he would care much about Rey, maybe keep her under observation a bit. Thrawwn abhors waste and wasting a talented - and at this moment non-threatening - force user is not his style.

The clown posse are goners though.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-18 08:28pm

Thanas wrote:
2018-01-18 07:46am
I don't think he would care much about Rey, maybe keep her under observation a bit. Thrawwn abhors waste and wasting a talented - and at this moment non-threatening - force user is not his style.
Agreed.
The clown posse are goners though.
I presume that's a reference to the First Order's... for lack of a better word, "leadership"?

Yeah, they're rather starved for competent leadership, especially now that its been whittled down to Kylo Ren and Hux. Thrawn would run circles around them, especially if he has Ysalamiri.

Except that dreadnought captain at the start of TLJ. He seemed a bit sharper. Pity he bought it so quickly.

Edit: All this does make me wonder once again where the hell Thrawn is in the ST. He hasn't been killed off in Rebels yet, has he (I haven't watched in a while)?
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-01-18 09:09pm

No, he's very much still kicking around being a major threat in Rebels.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-18 10:56pm

Thanas wrote:
2018-01-18 07:46am
I don't think he would care much about Rey, maybe keep her under observation a bit. Thrawwn abhors waste and wasting a talented - and at this moment non-threatening - force user is not his style.

The clown posse are goners though.
That and he's also known for underestimating more unconvential types. He messed up on reading both Karrde and Mara, so I don't think he'd ping onto Rey much either.

Snoke and Kylo, well, they're easy to read, and his anti-force lizards make taking down Snoke trivial if one can get past the guards.

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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-18 11:00pm

Then again, there's likely no reason for Thrawn to go in and assassinate Snoke close up, not if he can catch him in space. Keep the Ysalamiri on his own ship, and scatter Snoke's atoms across the system in a successful fleet engagement. We have not seen a single First Order commander who I would expect to be capable of besting Thrawn in a fleet engagement if they had a two-to-one advantage over him in firepower. Hux? Please.

Edit: Granted, Thrawn's ships will likely be technologically dated, and outgunned by the massive First Order capital ships. Still, the battle of Bilbrigi fleet was quite large, and certainly better-commanded. And I'd expect one of Thrawn's first actions to be to set about acquiring new ships, either by capture or purchase.

Actually, the Bilbrigi fleet vs. Snoke's from TLJ would be an interesting fight. Snoke's fleet would probably have a huge fire power edge due to the above-mentioned reasons, and some unfamiliar tech., but Thrawn's fleet would have superior commanders, likely more fleet combat experience, and IIRC a more diverse range of assets (including interdictors).
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-01-18 11:42pm

I don't know that it's a given that First Order warships significantly outgun Galactic Civil War-era Imperial ones. The super-cannons on the Mandator IV aside, they certainly haven't demonstrated it.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by streetad » 2018-01-19 12:32pm

Thrawn's main driver if I remember correctly was trying to create a well-ordered, politically united militaristic superpower in the galaxy to ward off a mysterious external threat.

(Obviously this is not evident from the Zahn trilogy, but retconned in after the NJO books).

The problem is, because of the new trilogy's incoherent approach to world-building, we have very little information to suggest whether he would side with the FO, with some other power in the galaxy, or try to go it alone in order to do so.

Is there still a Republic, and in what shape? Are there regional powers? What does the First Order actually control? Is Snoke the kind of Sith that Thrawn would be willing to get on board with, like Palpatine, or the kind he would want to use/dispose of, like C'Boath? We can't really answer any of these questions.

The only thing we can tell is that, as a ruthless meritocrat, he would have very little time for all the useless political appointees currently running the FO fleet. Or the bulk of the Resistance/Rebel characters for that matter.

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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-01-19 01:02pm

streetad wrote:
2018-01-19 12:32pm
Is there still a Republic, and in what shape? Are there regional powers? What does the First Order actually control? Is Snoke the kind of Sith that Thrawn would be willing to get on board with, like Palpatine, or the kind he would want to use/dispose of, like C'Boath? We can't really answer any of these questions.

The only thing we can tell is that, as a ruthless meritocrat, he would have very little time for all the useless political appointees currently running the FO fleet. Or the bulk of the Resistance/Rebel characters for that matter.
The Republic basically got decapitated at Hosnian, so it's either fragmenting or pretty much in the process of doing so. Mind you, the timeline is wonky, apparently TLJ happens more or less immediately after TFA, so like... a day or two at the very most. Presumably whatever is happening is mostly just what's left of the Republic, that actually wants to stay in the Republic after such an event, trying to pick up the pieces.

Regional powers: We don't know. Presumably the more powerful systems exert local influence. Canto Bight is canonically in the Corporate Sector, so that's still a thing. The ship that DJ the hacker steals may belong to a Sienar exec.

What does the First Order control: We don't know, again. They obviously control enough resources to build the Supremacy and Starkiller Base, so presumably... either a decent amount of systems, or they steal a lot, or they're very efficient in their processing of system resources. Possibly a bit of all three. We do know that they have ex-Imperial personnel; the captain of the Mandator is one, and General Hux's father was one as well.

As for Snoke... he's not even a Sith, IIRC. I'm not sure Thrawn would trust him enough to get in bed with him or try to use him.
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-01-19 01:07pm

Thrawn would probably be embraced and supported by whatever the Imperial Remnant is rather quickly, I would assume. And they could help solve his logistical and technological issues in short order. And I would expect some of the old-guard Imperials within the FO to defect to someone who represents their "glory days". Because it isn't just Thrawn that is coming. It's a number of established, senior Imperial navy officers coming with him.

It'd be like in the world of Wolfenstein: The New Order when suddenly Patton, Bradley, and their armies are dropped into capitualted America. Sure, their tech may be out of date, but the old-timers who know who they are, what they represent, and what they can do that would cause some groundswell of support.

Thrawn and his inner circle of captains would represent that kind of nostalgic "glory days" hoo-rah heroes of the past (Imperially-speaking) come to reignite the dying embers. Especially to the grumpy senior leadership in the FO (something tells me the Captain of that Fleet Killer would rather serve under Thrawn than that fool Hux).
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-19 01:08pm

Did Disney Thrawn exist in this scenario?

And would his Disney counterpart's reputation aid or hinder EU Thrawn?
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Re: EU Thrawn in the Disney Canon (possible The Last Jedi spoilers).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-19 01:32pm

streetad wrote:
2018-01-19 12:32pm
Thrawn's main driver if I remember correctly was trying to create a well-ordered, politically united militaristic superpower in the galaxy to ward off a mysterious external threat.

(Obviously this is not evident from the Zahn trilogy, but retconned in after the NJO books).
That's actually really significant, because the Vong, so far as we know, don't exist in the new continuity.

Which means that, once Thrawn figures that out, his underlying motivation is massively changed.
The problem is, because of the new trilogy's incoherent approach to world-building, we have very little information to suggest whether he would side with the FO, with some other power in the galaxy, or try to go it alone in order to do so.

Is there still a Republic, and in what shape?
As of when I set the start of this scenario, yes.

As of TLJ, either there is no Republic, or it is very weak and disorganized following the Hosnian strike.
Are there regional powers?
Likely. TFA strongly gives the impression that neither the First Order nor Republic controls the entire galaxy (or if they claim territory across the whole galaxy, their control is weak).
What does the First Order actually control?
Vaguely defined in the films, but they do clearly control some planets, as well as sufficient infrastructure to build/maintain squadrons of capital ships.
Is Snoke the kind of Sith that Thrawn would be willing to get on board with, like Palpatine, or the kind he would want to use/dispose of, like C'Boath? We can't really answer any of these questions.
Snoke is never referred to as a Sith, although he seems to follow a similar ideology. To my knowledge, he was not an apprentice of Palpatine, or any of the other known Sith Lords- meaning that it could be argued that he's not a real Sith in any case. At most, an imitator.
The only thing we can tell is that, as a ruthless meritocrat, he would have very little time for all the useless political appointees currently running the FO fleet. Or the bulk of the Resistance/Rebel characters for that matter.
I cannot imagine Thrawn having much patience for Hux, certainly- a man who Snoke accurately described as "a rabid cur". Kylo Ren he might use, but he'd probably regard him much as C'baoth- a dangerous tool to be manipulated, until he's no longer useful.

Phasma- I don't know if her competency is a big issue, but he probably would have executed her following her decision to lower the Starkiller shields to save herself, if he was aware of it.

The only notable character in the First Order command structure who I think might establish a good working relationship with Thrawn, based on the little we've seen, is the captain of the dreadnought Poe's bombers blew up. He seemed at least a little more competent than his superiors. But its hard to judge because he had so little screen-time.
NeoGoomba wrote:
2018-01-19 01:07pm
Thrawn would probably be embraced and supported by whatever the Imperial Remnant is rather quickly, I would assume.
I assume this is drawing on the material from outside the films, since as far as the films are concerned, the First Order is the closest thing to a successor or remnant of the Empire that exists.

Given that, its hard to say what sort of help the Imperial Remnant could offer.
And they could help solve his logistical and technological issues in short order. And I would expect some of the old-guard Imperials within the FO to defect to someone who represents their "glory days". Because it isn't just Thrawn that is coming. It's a number of established, senior Imperial navy officers coming with him.
Defections are likely, yes. Especially once Thrawn demonstrates his capability as an officer.
It'd be like in the world of Wolfenstein: The New Order when suddenly Patton, Bradley, and their armies are dropped into capitualted America. Sure, their tech may be out of date, but the old-timers who know who they are, what they represent, and what they can do that would cause some groundswell of support.

Thrawn and his inner circle of captains would represent that kind of nostalgic "glory days" hoo-rah heroes of the past (Imperially-speaking) come to reignite the dying embers. Especially to the grumpy senior leadership in the FO (something tells me the Captain of that Fleet Killer would rather serve under Thrawn than that fool Hux).
Probably, yeah.
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-19 01:08pm
Did Disney Thrawn exist in this scenario?
I'd assume so, yes, since Rebels is canon in the same continuity as TFA and TLJ.
And would his Disney counterpart's reputation aid or hinder EU Thrawn?
That's a question that probably can't be answered until Rebels is over, and we find out what ultimately happened to canon Thrawn.
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