How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-31 03:58am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-30 06:10pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-30 05:48pm
The EU didn't fit RotJ's optimistic tone but TFA/TLJ does?
I didn't say anything about TFA/TLJ one way or the other. Just that having the war end pretty quickly after Endor was the right call.
And that's balls. It's a galaxy spanning Empire, it takes six months or whatever to bring it down?

Or not. Since I hear the nuEU is something like there's the battle of Jakku six months after Endor and then they divide the galaxy in half. Let the Empire have half and then entirely disarm which is just seems silly and leaves half the galaxy in the hands of the EVIL EMPIRE, which doesn't sound very optimistic to me.

But then that doesn't really tally with the TFA Crawl.
If you want an ongoing story you pretty much have to ditch that.
Now, see, I don't get that- this idea that if a victory isn't absolute and permanent, and history doesn't end, then it somehow robs it of any optimism.

The galaxy got X number of years/decades of relative freedom and peace. That's not nothing. But it is a problem that that will likely largely been off-screen, so we don't really see the fruits of the heroes' victory.
You've kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying that. The EU had to have new challenges, new problems otherwise it would have no story. Yet you say one set of stories robs RotJ of optimism and the others don't?

Just because the struggle isn't over, that doesn't discount the great victory that was Endor. The Emperor is gone, the Jedi have returned. And this sticks. Is the happy ending of ANH ruined by ESB and RotJ?
In very broad strokes the EU got it right. Without the Emperor the Empire slowly dissolves in in fighting with a few big names manage a resinsurgancy now and again. But it shrinks until its too small and compact to be worth conquering and peace happens.
Well, I emphatically disagree, and I've stated my reasons above.

I think a lot of fans are too attached to "This is the way it was", and mistake it for "This way was objectively better."
I wasn't actually drawing a comparison between old and new, just saying the old wasn't that bad and made sense to me. (Again in broad strokes)

Again, don't visit people's intentions like that. That's something you don't like being done to you. I could return the slap and assume you like new things because it's new and it's counter-'mainstream nerd' to do so.
Luke successfully forms a new jedi order, not without hiccups but he perseveres and the jedi return to tbe galaxy.

As I say super broad strokes but not bad an overall direction there.
Well, Luke did form a new Jedi Order in the new canon, of course, but without much long-term success.[/quote]

But TRR, it doesn't have to be a long-term success to count. We got x years/decades of a new JedI Order that really affected the galaxy. That's not nothing, you know.
That's another thing I'd like to see in Episode IX, incidentally. We hear about the "Knights of Ren", but we've never seen them. I don't know if it was ever confirmed, but the logical inference is that they're Luke's students who joined Kylo instead of being slaughtered.
Pretty much stated in one film or the other I think. I'd like to have known more as well. Me and my sister wondered if the red guys in TLJ were them.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-31 04:16am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-30 07:24pm
ray245 wrote:
2018-01-30 07:22pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-30 06:10pm
uote]

Now, see, I don't get that- this idea that if a victory isn't absolute and permanent, and history doesn't end, then it somehow robs it of any optimism.

The galaxy got X number of years/decades of relative freedom and peace. That's not nothing. But it is a problem that that will likely largely been off-screen, so we don't really see the fruits of the heroes' victory.

You know what I'd like in the next film? A flashback to the pre-First Order days, showing Han, Luke, Ben, and Leia together, as a family. Or even just a character talking about how life was better under the Republic, for a while. Something to SHOW us that on-screen that the OT achieved a real victory, even if it wasn't the end of history.
I highly doubt they would show it, mainly because this is JJ Abrams we are talking about. He's horrible at actual world-building.

Number 2, the problem is the legacy the heroes left behind is just as bad as the lives they experienced as young adults. There's no accomplishment to speak off in the long run, no real legacy to pass for the younger generation. It makes the Galactic civil war feel like WW1, with the victory being akin to the treaty of Versailles. I mean sure, the world did not experience another world war for 20 years, but would you really call the Treaty of Versailles a victory for the world as a whole?
That's not really analogous, unless you can show that the OT heroes' actions lead to the rise of the First Order in the way that the Treaty of Versailles contributed to the rise of the Nazis.

The only thing we KNOW is the fault of one of the older generation of heroes (unless there's some stuff in the books that I'm missing, again) is Luke's decision to draw his saber on Kylo Ren.

Edit: Hmm, and I guess maybe Mon Mothma is at fault for overly-demilitarizing the New Republic? You can seen a WW2 analogy there, if you want to- though to appeasement and inter-war demilitarization, not Versailles.
That's the big letdown for people. There are a few people that hope that the end of ROTJ meant something significant like the end of WW2. Wars still exist, but never on a worldwide scale again.

Instead, imagine being told the heroes you've been rooting for only won WW1. It's dramatically unappealing.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-01-31 04:51am

What really gets me about EU vs New Canon. Is half the complaints about the old EU are things like 'too many resurgent/reborn Empires, new superweapons, new darksiders' it's so boring and repetitive.

And then the canon comes along and does all that, all over again and some how that's not a problem?!
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-31 12:59pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-31 04:16am
Instead, imagine being told the heroes you've been rooting for only won WW1. It's dramatically unappealing.
SW is actually in a rather unique place as far as properties go. While a horrendous amount of things from the past have been or are going to be rebooted, the vast bulk are reboots and not continuations. SW is rather unique in this regard (Discovery can keep saying it's part of the original timeline all it wants...) in that the complain about 'ruining childhoods' is actually feasible. Sure, the Bayformers Optimus Prime isn't G1 Prime- if he acts like an ass that's ok, it's a reboot (one of many TF continuities) and it's not really connected to, nor does it influence, how I see a beloved childhood property. But with SW, that's not the case. With SW, Mark Hamil is back as Luke and now I will forever know he turns into a coward and asshole. It actually *will* taint how I view the OT because I know there isn't really a Return of the Jedi- just Another Failure of the Jedi. Just like it'll taint every scene of Han and Leia to know they fail.

I actually really wish the ST was about Han and Leia's twins, young padawans under Luke. At some point, before they finish their training Luke gathers some of his older students and sets off on some secret but urgent mission. Naturally, something goes wrong and we get the adventures of the Solo twins as they go searching for their Master. Han and Leia are too old for such things and so they steal the Falcon (with the help of Lando's kid), only to be hunted down by Chewie who then agrees to go with them (as protection and pilot).

I'm certainly not getting twisted into knots about it- especially now that JJ and RJ have effectively forced my mind to consider their films as reboots despite the 'continuity'. Like Mark Hamil, this is not my Luke, or for that matter my Star Wars. And that's ok. It's certainly disappointing but eh. So be it. There's plenty of other franchises to throw my time and money at.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kingmaker » 2018-01-31 02:10pm

There's a fundamental difference between the post-ROTJ Legends and the sequel trilogy in the nature of the stories we get. In Legends, the New Republic is declared and the dynamic shifts from rebels trying to overthrow a corrupt order to people trying to build and maintain a better status quo against the efforts of those who would tear it down. It's not a final victory at any point, but there's a sense of progress. The good guys are ascending. In the ST, there's a strong implication that the efforts of the OT ultimately failed. Whatever events may have taken place in the interim, we are now back to rebels fighting desperately against an evil empire. The New Republic is impotent and absent, doing nothing to stop the First Order and appearing on screen only long enough to get blown up. So, to me, it is very easy to see why you can read the post-ROTJ Legends optimistic and the ST as pessimistic.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-31 02:53pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-01-30 05:15pm
The Nu52, for example, was a reset where they decided to keep some stuff and ditch others, and all put it in a fixed 5-10 year past (some heroes started 10 years before, but the big public formation of the JLA was 5 years) where it could reasonably fit. Except, people were confused about which events were in and out, and some events they left in had references to other events, and some were altered. They had the Death of Superman, but not the destruction of Coast city, Cyborg Superman, or the JL that showed up in that story. So in order to know the history, you had to (1) have read a book from the old continuity, and (2) then go, "No, not that part, even though it was central to the original story." So no-one *actually has seen* how Death of Superman happened in the nu52 because that story doesn't actually exist even though it's a major part of the character's history.
I don't even follow DC but I feel sympathetic rage building for those who do. What a bloody mess.

I think they'd have a better time of it if they just said we're doing eras. Clean reboot each era, it'll run for a fixed number of years, anything can happen. We end it with a bang and then we start a new era. Make it long enough that it counts for something, all the fans can have their favorite stories and then the blank slate comes for the next generation of fans to have their stories with a clean entry point.

The advantage is they can kill characters, leave them dead, have consequential stories and anyone who likes that era can read titles in that era and enjoy themselves and not have to worry about some later writer trying to undo the story with something stupid like One More Day.
The Thrawn trilogy has the fighting with Thrawn, sure, but it also has 1) Different cloning tech, 2) anti-force lizards, 3) An evil Jedi doing mass mind control. And it also locks in the politics to the figures there, and the Solo twins, and those are out. So you have the same, "This story is in! ... no, not that part," effect. And that's one of the easiest ones to work in since it was one of the first EU novels.

Rogue Squadron? You've got Zsinj, and thus The Courtship of Princess Leia (which brings in Hapes), as well as Sidious burying a Super Star Destroyer and doing mass-hypnosis to hide it.
*waves hand* This isn't the EU you're looking for.

Point taken. They had some dire crap in there. You would pretty much be forced to rewrite those old novels to keep them in canon. It's a messy solution but they could strip those stories down to the plot points, connect those dots together in a way that explains the timeline, then fill it back in with new material. I mean they're going to anyway and you just know there's no outlining for new events involved. It's going to be an organic, patchwork mess just like before.

If I had my druthers and there were no other factors considered like aging actors, VII would have come just a few years after VI. Then there's no time gap to fill in. GRRM ran into this problem when he planned a time skip and then realized things still happened in that gap and ended up writing out everything in detail rather than just outlining and referring to in passing. Made ASOIAF a bit of a mess.

But they had to do the time skip and so there's a 30 year gap that's not going away and they will fill it in.

"We highly recommend you read this, and then ignore parts of it," is what makes things a horrible confusing mess, well above and beyond 'don't think too hard about how there's too many stories to have actually happened in this timeframe and characterizations shift a bit with some errors.' The trying to prune things is the problem, in order to make it work you really would need full-on re-writes of the stories you want to include that completely removes the very large story elements that aren't in.
[/quote]

Yah. it's a bit of a rat's nest of a problem. But it looks like the new EU will be going a similar way. A new rat's nest with new problems.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-31 02:54pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-31 04:16am
That's the big letdown for people. There are a few people that hope that the end of ROTJ meant something significant like the end of WW2. Wars still exist, but never on a worldwide scale again.

Instead, imagine being told the heroes you've been rooting for only won WW1. It's dramatically unappealing.
Eh, didn't hurt Wonder Woman much. :wink:
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-01-31 03:58am
And that's balls. It's a galaxy spanning Empire, it takes six months or whatever to bring it down?
Why not?

Oh, I don't think that the New Republic could easily take control of it all in six months or a year (IIRC, I'm pretty sure it was originally a year after Endor for Jakku, so if its now six months, that's a retcon).

But for the Empire to cease to exist as a unified, powerful state, given the way it was set up? Yeah, I've got no problem with that.

Remember also that historical empires took longer to fall likely, in part, because travel and communication times were longer. You can cross the Star Wars galaxy in a day, and the news of the Emperor's fall could have crossed it in a minute.
Or not. Since I hear the nuEU is something like there's the battle of Jakku six months after Endor and then they divide the galaxy in half. Let the Empire have half and then entirely disarm which is just seems silly and leaves half the galaxy in the hands of the EVIL EMPIRE, which doesn't sound very optimistic to me.
First I've heard of the "split the galaxy in half", thing. It rather begs the question of where this Empire is in the ST (or are we supposed to assume that it was just all subsumed by the First Order)?

More contradictions. Sigh... meet the new EU, same as the old EU, I guess.
But then that doesn't really tally with the TFA Crawl.
The impression I got from TFA was that the galaxy was divided between multiple factions, with the NR being the strongest until the First Order surprise attacked them.

[
You've kind of shot yourself in the foot by saying that. The EU had to have new challenges, new problems otherwise it would have no story. Yet you say one set of stories robs RotJ of optimism and the others don't?
Yeah, because they're different stories, with different connotations. In one, the heroes win, and then eventually a new threat arises. In the other, its just the same old enemy, more or less uninterrupted, for decades.

If you don't see the difference, I'm not sure what to say here.
Just because the struggle isn't over, that doesn't discount the great victory that was Endor. The Emperor is gone, the Jedi have returned. And this sticks. Is the happy ending of ANH ruined by ESB and RotJ?
That's... actually a fair point. But kind of seems to contradict what you've been saying thus far.
I wasn't actually drawing a comparison between old and new, just saying the old wasn't that bad and made sense to me. (Again in broad strokes)
Fair enough, I guess.
Again, don't visit people's intentions like that. That's something you don't like being done to you. I could return the slap and assume you like new things because it's new and it's counter-'mainstream nerd' to do so.
I should hope I've stated my actual reasons clearly enough.
But TRR, it doesn't have to be a long-term success to count. We got x years/decades of a new JedI Order that really affected the galaxy. That's not nothing, you know.
But did it have any effect on the galaxy, beyond spawning Kylo Ren?

I guess we don't know enough about Luke's order to say.
Pretty much stated in one film or the other I think. I'd like to have known more as well. Me and my sister wondered if the red guys in TLJ were them.
I've read not, but I can't recall the source.

I can only assume (hope) that they're leaving them for an Episode IX villain force, rather than just dropping hints and then not following up on them.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-31 03:02pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-01-30 05:24pm
jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-30 03:18pm
I get why they did the whole Vong thing, they wanted a threat to the whole galaxy and there wasn't enough room for the threat to originate within the galaxy so making it come from without makes sense. It's just thew whole vibe of the Vong felt out of place for Star Wars.
But the Vong were something new, not "yet another dark force user". And it managed to keep lots of different writers on the same project without messing it (as far as I remember). Something I believe they didn't with TFA and TLJ (dumping each and every plot point and character growth made in the previous one). I don't see where they pretend to take the new trilogy, really.
The Vong in the fan community remain divisive. Like I said, I understand why they did it and it's not a bad idea in concept but in execution they didn't feel like they belonged in Star Wars, it felt more like Warhammer 40k or something. It's a bit of a subjective call, of course, but not an uncommon one.

The idea of "What new information could make Palpatine's decisions justified?" is compelling as is the idea of an all-stomping existential threat to everything justifying turning the republic into a military machine. But some might say it changes Palpatine's character too much from someone into evil for the lulz to someone with a practical goal who sees evil as the shortest path between two points. I can sympathize with that criticism.

I think the real problem with this conception is that it does end up hewing too close to Warhammer 40K fluff because it makes him into the God-Emperor of Mankind and that's a bit redundant because we already have Warhammer. it's no longer an original idea. (I mean what is the Imperium other than a what-if? "What if the Galactic Empire/Space Fascists were the good buys because all the other factions are more horribler than them?")

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-31 03:40pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-31 04:16am
That's the big letdown for people. There are a few people that hope that the end of ROTJ meant something significant like the end of WW2. Wars still exist, but never on a worldwide scale again.

Instead, imagine being told the heroes you've been rooting for only won WW1. It's dramatically unappealing.
It puts me to mind of that funny post treating WWII like a TV show with unrealistic writing.

http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html

If we decided to do Star Wars as 20th century history with the serial numbers filed off, you're absolutely right, WWI is a depressing victory. Lots of time travel stories have played around with that. Time traveler accidentally refers to the Great War as WWI and the timeline local asks with despair "You mean there's going to be another?" WWII felt like more of a total victory, even with the shadow of the Cold War looming over everything that's happened.

If Indiana Jones had any sequels after the first trilogy (not listening, not listening, there were only three!) you'd have a totally different feel putting it in the early Cold War. The Soviets have captured German paranormal research and are now looking for an immortality elixir to keep Stalin alive indefinitely. You're swapping out Nazis for Russians as the primary enemy, maybe have Indy forced to ally with a West German intel agent who was most certainly a nazi during the war. Strange bedfellows, same psychopaths wanting to rule the world. You could show change and progress in the world at large while still getting up to classic Indy hijinks.

What you would have to do with setting ROTJ as a WWII victory is start detailing who the existing allies were whose alliances change. The USSR was clearly a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and many could see them becoming the new enemy if the Nazis were defeated. Patton wanted to march on Moscow directly after the war was won, fuck dismantling the military machine. China went from being a basketcase being carved up by western powers at the early part of the 20th century to assuming the status of an economic superpower in the next century. India as well. Massive economic engine now.

There aren't any other entities as such in the Star Wars universe and it would be weird to say 'oh yeah, by the way, here's these guys we never mentioned but they're now super important." So it makes you think that the New Republic might fracture along the lines of common economic interest. We never heard of any trade federation in the OT because any powerful factions that could threaten Imperial control were all stamped down. With the New Republic trying to restore the status quo ante bellum, the old factions might reassert themselves. It could be akin to Yugoslavia. That country was never meant to be, the parts hated each other. It was constructed from pieces following WWI, then held together with bile and spit through the bulk of the 20th century until a breakup towards the end of the Cold War.

The nice bit of role reversal here is the good guys would be in the Republic faction and they're trying to stop a rebellion. The Whiskey Rebellion is a great followup to the American Revolution because now you see Gen. Washington riding out with an army to put down a rebellion by angry patriots who didn't want to pay taxes. Why is one rebellion just and the other not? Do you lay claim to any greater principles or is it because "I said so?" And there's the question of whether these factions are spontaneously rising or being egged on by the Imperials.

Do something like this and you aren't undoing the victory of the old trilogy, you're not putting them back in the same situation as before. They won, so now you get new problems unlike the old problems. In fact, you may be nostalgic for those old problems when everything seemed simpler.

The New EU still hasn't said what the Empire is doing during this whole mess. Are they just sitting there when their rival's governing system got blowed up? Are they taking advantage in any way?

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-31 04:01pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-31 02:54pm
Eh, didn't hurt Wonder Woman much. :wink:
Because everyone already knew what will happen after WW1. The movie even outright told us humanity will continue to wage war without Ares. The movie focused on Wonder Woman's story instead of making her the savior of the entire world. Her mission was to defeat Ares and limit whatever damage he can cause.

At the same time, the DC movie universe is one set from a modern point of view. We knew the world has gotten better over time. The same can't be said about the Star Wars universe post ROTJ. The old EU writers gave us a horrible dystopia where heroes will never leave in peace and will have to die in battle at an old age.

The new movie directors seem to be giving us the exact same thing. Whatever "victory" the heroes will achieve is always pyrrhic, because there will always be a new Galactic war for them to fight. What's stopping the directors of Ep 10 from writing a new story about Rey's Jedi order being wiped out by yet another sith wannabe?

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-31 03:40pm
It puts me to mind of that funny post treating WWII like a TV show with unrealistic writing.

http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html

If we decided to do Star Wars as 20th century history with the serial numbers filed off, you're absolutely right, WWI is a depressing victory. Lots of time travel stories have played around with that. Time traveler accidentally refers to the Great War as WWI and the timeline local asks with despair "You mean there's going to be another?" WWII felt like more of a total victory, even with the shadow of the Cold War looming over everything that's happened.

If Indiana Jones had any sequels after the first trilogy (not listening, not listening, there were only three!) you'd have a totally different feel putting it in the early Cold War. The Soviets have captured German paranormal research and are now looking for an immortality elixir to keep Stalin alive indefinitely. You're swapping out Nazis for Russians as the primary enemy, maybe have Indy forced to ally with a West German intel agent who was most certainly a nazi during the war. Strange bedfellows, same psychopaths wanting to rule the world. You could show change and progress in the world at large while still getting up to classic Indy hijinks.

What you would have to do with setting ROTJ as a WWII victory is start detailing who the existing allies were whose alliances change. The USSR was clearly a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and many could see them becoming the new enemy if the Nazis were defeated. Patton wanted to march on Moscow directly after the war was won, fuck dismantling the military machine. China went from being a basketcase being carved up by western powers at the early part of the 20th century to assuming the status of an economic superpower in the next century. India as well. Massive economic engine now.

There aren't any other entities as such in the Star Wars universe and it would be weird to say 'oh yeah, by the way, here's these guys we never mentioned but they're now super important." So it makes you think that the New Republic might fracture along the lines of common economic interest. We never heard of any trade federation in the OT because any powerful factions that could threaten Imperial control were all stamped down. With the New Republic trying to restore the status quo ante bellum, the old factions might reassert themselves. It could be akin to Yugoslavia. That country was never meant to be, the parts hated each other. It was constructed from pieces following WWI, then held together with bile and spit through the bulk of the 20th century until a breakup towards the end of the Cold War.

The nice bit of role reversal here is the good guys would be in the Republic faction and they're trying to stop a rebellion. The Whiskey Rebellion is a great followup to the American Revolution because now you see Gen. Washington riding out with an army to put down a rebellion by angry patriots who didn't want to pay taxes. Why is one rebellion just and the other not? Do you lay claim to any greater principles or is it because "I said so?" And there's the question of whether these factions are spontaneously rising or being egged on by the Imperials.

Do something like this and you aren't undoing the victory of the old trilogy, you're not putting them back in the same situation as before. They won, so now you get new problems unlike the old problems. In fact, you may be nostalgic for those old problems when everything seemed simpler.

The New EU still hasn't said what the Empire is doing during this whole mess. Are they just sitting there when their rival's governing system got blowed up? Are they taking advantage in any way?
The very heart of the problem is the new directors don't understand the point of Star Wars and why it came at a perfect time for America and the world in the 70s and 80s. Star Wars came at a time when the American society was experiencing a lot of social unrest and confronted with the problem of the Vietnam war. It's very much a period where it is difficult to say who exactly is the good guy vs the bad guys.

Star Wars offers a very fairytale-like story, with simple good guys beating simple bad guys. A simple battle victory meant something in the longer run. It sells the idea of a better future, that one day war will finally be over and you can return to a thousand year peace. It's a total myth, and that's the point of Star Wars.

It's extremely crucial for any writer to avoid retelling the same conflict all over again. But JJ Abrams is pretty much an idiot when it comes to writing stories and world-building, so he went for the simple retelling and pressing the big reset button. Why should anyone invest in Rey's journey if all it takes is a new director to get bored of a peaceful setting and wipe out the Jedi Order again.

The old EU writers are very good at repeating the exact story again and again despite being professional writers. So clearly the TPTB at Disney are capable of doing the same thing all over again.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-31 04:28pm

Oh, and I just remembered this video essay arguing why no one complained about Wonder Woman being a Mary Sue despite all her abilities and how she could overcome any challenges coming her way.



There's a build-up for her leading up to the No man's land scene. We saw the inner conflict within her and we cheered for her when she realized her full abilities ( the ability to inspire others to be heroic rather than simply killing the big evil monster).

The arc for Rey, on the other hand, is entirely mismatched. On one hand, it's about her trying to get back to her parents, hoping to be part of some great heritage, on the other hand, it's about her learning to trust in the force. Her heroic moments aren't properly set-up and thus felt unearned.

Both TLJ and TFA should focus on Rey learning to trust in the force, and that should be the heart of her journey. Her journey to becoming a Jedi should be the central crux of the story. Luke's original character arc is about how belief in the force and journey to become a Jedi can inspire people. Luke's journey into the hero of the rebellion is a story tied directly to his journey as a Jedi. The rebellion won the war when Luke finally became a Jedi Knight. It's how the Battle onboard the Death Star tie in so nicely to the battle of Endor itself.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-31 07:02pm

Yea, I think that's solid. The problem isn't what Rey can do or the origin of said skills, but some narrative focus fiddling to increase the sense of building up would be a definite improvement.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-31 07:23pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-01-31 07:02pm
Yea, I think that's solid. The problem isn't what Rey can do or the origin of said skills, but some narrative focus fiddling to increase the sense of building up would be a definite improvement.
The problem is Finn and Rey together in the same movie. Who is the movie supposed to focus on? Is it on Finn's as the main protagonist, showing how he changed from someone wanting to escape to someone willing to face a great evil? Then all of a sudden Rey is the focus. Now Poe is the focus as well.

With TLJ, Luke is suddenly the focus of the movie. TLJ is basically Luke's story, with Rey as a side character. In the OT, it's very clear Luke is the main hero. Han and Leia are supporting characters, but they never took the momentum of the story away from Luke. TLJ is basically like "hey, let's take a U-turn and explore Luke's story and effectively make him the main character of the movie!"

Rey's moment in fully trusting the force should felt earned. It needs to be a pivotal moment for her, a sense of triumph that she has embraced being a hero. Instead, the construction of Rey's arc makes it felt unearned and given by the writer's fiat.

I'm not sure if the writers have any idea what to do with Rey as a hero.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by CaoCao » 2018-02-01 02:33pm

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-31 03:02pm
CaoCao wrote:
2018-01-30 05:24pm
jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-30 03:18pm
I get why they did the whole Vong thing, they wanted a threat to the whole galaxy and there wasn't enough room for the threat to originate within the galaxy so making it come from without makes sense. It's just thew whole vibe of the Vong felt out of place for Star Wars.
But the Vong were something new, not "yet another dark force user". And it managed to keep lots of different writers on the same project without messing it (as far as I remember). Something I believe they didn't with TFA and TLJ (dumping each and every plot point and character growth made in the previous one). I don't see where they pretend to take the new trilogy, really.
The Vong in the fan community remain divisive. Like I said, I understand why they did it and it's not a bad idea in concept but in execution they didn't feel like they belonged in Star Wars, it felt more like Warhammer 40k or something. It's a bit of a subjective call, of course, but not an uncommon one.

The idea of "What new information could make Palpatine's decisions justified?" is compelling as is the idea of an all-stomping existential threat to everything justifying turning the republic into a military machine. But some might say it changes Palpatine's character too much from someone into evil for the lulz to someone with a practical goal who sees evil as the shortest path between two points. I can sympathize with that criticism.

I think the real problem with this conception is that it does end up hewing too close to Warhammer 40K fluff because it makes him into the God-Emperor of Mankind and that's a bit redundant because we already have Warhammer. it's no longer an original idea. (I mean what is the Imperium other than a what-if? "What if the Galactic Empire/Space Fascists were the good buys because all the other factions are more horribler than them?")
I never considered it a retcon to Palpy's policy, though I can see how some may think like that. It's not that he was testing a valiant defense of the galaxy by blowing up Alderaan. It did retcon Thrawn and the Chiss to an extent, but that is already in the new canon.

I wouldn't mind the old EU being replaced, if it was by a better new EU. Yet, the Aftermath series were horrible in every sense. Bloodlines was the start of 2 character assasinations (Leia and Han). And the rest is so so. Only relatively good read was Thrawn's detective novel, but they had to fish him from old EU. Haven't read Inferno Squad yet.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-01 10:34pm

jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-31 02:53pm
Yah. it's a bit of a rat's nest of a problem. But it looks like the new EU will be going a similar way. A new rat's nest with new problems.
I really do not get what makes people think they can half-assed continuity. Some people say 'only the nitpickers really care about that sort of thing/you'll always have complaints, so why try?' and yet it never works out. Failures happen, but the effort of trying comes across a lot vs not trying.


I can name other half-reboots too- Wildstorm's Worldstorm reboot is another- and it never pays off. The closest it came to being the case was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but that worked because (1) pre-crisis really did not have that much unified continuity to begin with, some books did but unlike marvel, it kinda eased into continuity half-way while a lot of stuff was episodic, so rebuilding the universe around the books with continuity was, while not a full reboot, a lot more sensible to do than with many reboots, (2) post they could say "this is literally a stapled-together kludge world, expect some weirdness, and even the characters accept it's weird," and (3) they honestly did try to patch the holes. "Wait, if Wonder Woman just showed up, then how can WW-related character have a history...?" "Ah, you see, now there's this other character who did a lot of WW's World War 2 stuff, so they were inspired by them, not Diana," and so on.

The new EU is not remotely near the worst I've seen, but it is clear they need a better gameplan/develop a narrative beyond 'fill the gaps in the OT'. A lot of between-OT-and-ST stuff is still effectively off limits because the movies might use it, and if they want to keep their 'there is one canon level,' thing, and due to the fact movies simply will never be beholden to random novel/comic, that means either not using stuff in that era, or being more tightly decided on what they will-do in the future.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-02-01 10:41pm

Consistency in developing your continuity/canon is absolutely foundational. If the story doesn't make sense, why should the audience give a damn about it? Unfortunately, its also something that, like good pacing, tends to get left by the wayside in modern Hollywood, at least in the speculative fiction and action genres. In fairness, this is hardly a problem unique to the Star Wars franchise, much less to TLJ- its endemic in the industry.

Edit: The usual approach these days seems to be more along the lines of "Lets make a bunch of cool moments and string them together with whatever bullshit excuses we can come up with."
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-02-02 04:33am

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-31 07:23pm
Q99 wrote:
2018-01-31 07:02pm
Yea, I think that's solid. The problem isn't what Rey can do or the origin of said skills, but some narrative focus fiddling to increase the sense of building up would be a definite improvement.
The problem is Finn and Rey together in the same movie. Who is the movie supposed to focus on? Is it on Finn's as the main protagonist, showing how he changed from someone wanting to escape to someone willing to face a great evil? Then all of a sudden Rey is the focus. Now Poe is the focus as well.

With TLJ, Luke is suddenly the focus of the movie. TLJ is basically Luke's story, with Rey as a side character. In the OT, it's very clear Luke is the main hero. Han and Leia are supporting characters, but they never took the momentum of the story away from Luke. TLJ is basically like "hey, let's take a U-turn and explore Luke's story and effectively make him the main character of the movie!"

Rey's moment in fully trusting the force should felt earned. It needs to be a pivotal moment for her, a sense of triumph that she has embraced being a hero. Instead, the construction of Rey's arc makes it felt unearned and given by the writer's fiat.

I'm not sure if the writers have any idea what to do with Rey as a hero.
I think they knew what to do with Rey as a hero, her moments are pretty good, they just wanted to shove in too much other stuff too.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-02-02 06:22pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-02-01 10:34pm
jollyreaper wrote:
2018-01-31 02:53pm
Yah. it's a bit of a rat's nest of a problem. But it looks like the new EU will be going a similar way. A new rat's nest with new problems.
I really do not get what makes people think they can half-assed continuity. Some people say 'only the nitpickers really care about that sort of thing/you'll always have complaints, so why try?' and yet it never works out. Failures happen, but the effort of trying comes across a lot vs not trying.
I have a few guesses. For one thing, continuity nerds have a reputation for being obnoxious. Shatner's "get a life" skit is funny for a reason. Same with the Lucy Lawless Simpsons guest spot. Continuity nerds can obsess over stuff that doesn't matter.

But at the same time, not caring about continuity creates massive narrative holes that even non-nerds should notice. I think outlining gets tarred with the same brush. Many discovery writers say that outlining stifles the creative process. But if they never try to create a larger narrative structure, the story fails to hold together. Stephen King is a discovery writer and most fans will admit he's the weakest on his endings. Likewise GRRM got himself tied in a knot because he couldn't really control where his narrative was going. He abandoned half a novel to go back and fix problems he only discovered later in the process. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Meereenese_knot
I can name other half-reboots too- Wildstorm's Worldstorm reboot is another- and it never pays off. The closest it came to being the case was Crisis on Infinite Earths, but that worked because (1) pre-crisis really did not have that much unified continuity to begin with, some books did but unlike marvel, it kinda eased into continuity half-way while a lot of stuff was episodic, so rebuilding the universe around the books with continuity was, while not a full reboot, a lot more sensible to do than with many reboots, (2) post they could say "this is literally a stapled-together kludge world, expect some weirdness, and even the characters accept it's weird," and (3) they honestly did try to patch the holes. "Wait, if Wonder Woman just showed up, then how can WW-related character have a history...?" "Ah, you see, now there's this other character who did a lot of WW's World War 2 stuff, so they were inspired by them, not Diana," and so on.
I think that editing and continuity is the hard stuff and the fresh writing is the fun stuff so people will focus on that and trust that only a subset of the audience will scratch their heads and say no, wait, hold up a sec.
The new EU is not remotely near the worst I've seen, but it is clear they need a better gameplan/develop a narrative beyond 'fill the gaps in the OT'. A lot of between-OT-and-ST stuff is still effectively off limits because the movies might use it, and if they want to keep their 'there is one canon level,' thing, and due to the fact movies simply will never be beholden to random novel/comic, that means either not using stuff in that era, or being more tightly decided on what they will-do in the future.
That's pretty much going to be the way of it until someone else sweeps everything away by executive decree.

I suspect that the Star Wars timeline is going to start resembling DC/Marvel a whole lot more with reboots and continuity snarls and an irritated fan base.

The open question is how big of a fan-base is the hard-core fan, really? Like when the Enterprise rose up from under the ocean and a portion of the audience said "Wait, hold up, the Enterprise has never been and will never be a submarine," what percent was that? Will they be able to find a fandom that caters to continuity?

I'd honestly thought that with internet funding we might be able to see more boutique offerings. Comics are managing it somewhat. I know some people who are making a living running a comic imprint online. There are some writers who have had some independent success self-publishing. But it's still a rare sort of thing. Aside from someone who is already famous like Louis CK selling material directly to fans, i'm not seeing much success. Iron Sky was a polarizing spoof but, regardless of what you thought of the quality, it was funded with a mix of local arts council and internet money. The sequel is being developed the same way. There was that attempt with Axanar but that has been a bloody mess of clashing egos and wasted money. Crowd sourcing has been a pretty mixed bag. I'm sure there's many projects I'm not aware of that are quietly profitable but not big enough to garner mainstream attention.

I'd thought it might have been possible to see the development of thematic successors to franchises like Trek and Wars when the owners took the IP in a whole different direction. I would have thought the impetus would come from the same community that makes the fan films, graduating into telling original stories they could actually sell. Oddly enough, the Trek successor came from Fox with the Orville. While official Star Trek goes for grimmdark, Orville is optimistic futurism like TNG with dick jokes.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-02-02 06:48pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-02-02 04:33am
I think they knew what to do with Rey as a hero, her moments are pretty good, they just wanted to shove in too much other stuff too.
Her little moments aren't part of a wider character arc.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by CaoCao » 2018-02-03 11:11am

For those that think Luke is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu), I'll leave this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2at2Wo9sU

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