How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

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Q99
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-23 05:56pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-23 04:27pm
Q99 wrote:
2018-01-23 01:58am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
Since people keep insisting that Rey is a bad character, a "Mary Sue", etc., on the basis that she's too good at everything and never fails, I thought I'd post this. If anyone can think of other examples to add that I've left out, please chime in.

The Grand List Of Things Rey Isn't Good At:

Practical Skills:

-Blaster Marksmanship.
-Countering hostile telekinesis.

Academic Knowledge:

-Knowledge of Force Philosophy.
-Knowledge of Galactic History.

Mistakes Made/Objectives Failed:

-Panics, runs off on her own, and gets captured (thus indirectly causing the death of her first surrogate father figure).
-Tempted by the Dark Side due to insecurities about her parentage and identity.
-Fails to persuade Luke to come out of retirement.
-Is manipulated by Snoke into overestimating her chances of redeeming Kylo Ren, willingly delivering herself into enemy custody.
-Fails to redeem Kylo Ren.
The Luke and Kylo things both indicate she's not the best at persuasion/social skills, and those are both practical and used often by the rest of the cast. Finn is way smoother, he can fall into a story to play a roll pretty easily and we see him use this in both movies. Han, of course, is a fast-talker. Poe's pretty smooth as well and was a spy.


If you gave them d20 stats, Rey's charisma would be the lowest of the bunch. It wouldn't be horrible, but it'd be average compared to Finn and Poe's much higher chasmas. Kinda crappy wisdom, for the decision making named. Solid intelligence, she is good at thinking on her feet, and good physicals.
That's a pretty good point.
And with the note that social power was pretty much the defining thing about the original Mary Sue- everyone loved her and couldn't help but fawn over her. They talked about how awesome she was, she could convince anyone to do what she wanted, and caused love triangles by existing.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-23 06:36pm

On that note, I would observe that the only possible love triangle in the ST (Rey/Finn/Rose) is at Rey's expense, and at Rose's instigation.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-23 07:43pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-23 06:36pm
On that note, I would observe that the only possible love triangle in the ST (Rey/Finn/Rose) is at Rey's expense, and at Rose's instigation.
Triangle? You forgot Poe in there! :D

... anyway, Finn-centric regardless ^^

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-23 07:53pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-01-23 07:43pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-23 06:36pm
On that note, I would observe that the only possible love triangle in the ST (Rey/Finn/Rose) is at Rey's expense, and at Rose's instigation.
Triangle? You forgot Poe in there! :D
I don't see much if any romantic or sexual subtext between Poe and Finn personally (but then, you could say the same for Rey/Finn, if so inclined), and I normally try not to engage with Stupid Shipping Shit, but since TLJ went there, and I'm an unapologetic Rey/Finn shipper (in fact, its pretty much the only ship I'll take the time to argue/promote), I can't really complain. :)

And if pigs fly and Disney decides to put a polyamorous bisexual quartet in the next Star Wars movie... I'd be okay with that. As long as its consensual and no one's getting hurt, people can do as they please.

Though I wouldn't want to see anything explicit in a Star Wars film. Not out of prudishness- it just isn't Star Wars.
... anyway, Finn-centric regardless ^^
Oh my God, Finn is a Mary Sue! He bent the universe around himself so successfully that it went Meta, and convinced us all that Rey, not Finn, was the Mary Sue.

:D
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-23 08:53pm

Looks like this essay was needed, so I went ahead and did it. Not sure I said everything I wanted to say, but I tried.

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman.
I think being a Sue depends on the situation.

Yes, Batman is cartoonishly overpowered, almost like he's a comic book character. Badum-tssh! Wonder Woman is written the same way. They pal around with other ridiculously overpowered characters in the Justice League and that's the setting.

If you pair James Bond with a female agent who is of his same competence (ridiculously overpowered vs. everyone else in his universe) it doesn't seem out of place because that's the unrealistically high level of competence the characters are demonstrating in the setting.

If a female character gets bitten by a radioactive mcguffin and develops powers, the being overpowered is part of the whole gimmick along with learning to use those powers.

It's when someone is outlandishly competent versus even the other major characters that the sue factor comes in. If the writers can't sell the competence to the audience.

I do see how some MRA types will go ballistic over female characters just cuz but I know from my perspective, she strikes me as OP given her background. now, is Lara Croft Mary Sue? No, she's more like Indiana Jones and he fits the trope of "allegedly human character but is basically a superhero." Nobody could credibly accomplish what they do in a real world scenario following the plot of the movie. It's hollywood fantasy.

You can look at a Sue/Stu as the writer's little darlings. Starbuck in nuBSG had characteristics of this. Best pilot, fighter, also a sharpshooter, can get away with anything because she plays by her own rules. But any favorite character can be made obnoxious like this, from Fonzie to Wolverine. Or like the Final Fantasy sort of hero who is a hardbitten mercenary soldier veteran who's seen some shit in this cruel, dark world and is 17. Did he emerge from the womb with a goddamn sword? Now we're boogying with Stu.

Maybe we can just call these characters "writer darlings" rather than mary/marties and everyone will be happy?

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-24 12:34am

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-23 05:06pm
Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-23 04:26pm
This strikes me as overly narrow. Introducing people in terms of their relationship to their social circle is not always necessary to a good character. It is a good way to do it, but not literally the only way to the point where not doing it that way is a flaw in and of itself. It's a way of establishing motivation, but not the only way.
It's the best way to introduce a new protagonist because we get a sense of who they are outside of their adventure days. Superman has his parents and friends from Smallville, Wonder Woman has her family of Amazons. It shows who they are to people they are close to. You can have a plot about loners as the main hero, but their issue and driving arc should be centered about learning to trust and connect with others.
And yet, Superman #1 didn't start with Superman's family from Smallville. Again, the point here is that there isn't only one way to tell a good story. If you want to criticize a character, criticize them for not doing or being the things they need to be to be a good character. Don't criticize them over things that can be done without.
Rey has none of those things that grounds her motivation. So the question should be "Where did Rey's motivation comes from" instead of "what's Rey's motivation"?
You're behaving as if the first question is more important than the second.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-24 10:20pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-23 07:53pm
Q99 wrote:
2018-01-23 07:43pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-23 06:36pm
On that note, I would observe that the only possible love triangle in the ST (Rey/Finn/Rose) is at Rey's expense, and at Rose's instigation.
Triangle? You forgot Poe in there! :D
I don't see much if any romantic or sexual subtext between Poe and Finn personally (but then, you could say the same for Rey/Finn, if so inclined), and I normally try not to engage with Stupid Shipping Shit, but since TLJ went there, and I'm an unapologetic Rey/Finn shipper (in fact, its pretty much the only ship I'll take the time to argue/promote), I can't really complain. :)
Basically, the jacket scene. I know one multi-fandom person I follow saw the movie once, but went to the bathroom during the "Your jacket-" "Keep it, it looks good on you!" scene, and so was like, 'Ok, they're cool, didn't really see anything unless it was in those minutes, but shippers gonna ship, whatever," when they saw a lot of Finn/Poe stuff.

They saw it again and was like, "Ooooo, yea, I get it now!" and became a Finn/Poe shipper ^^

And if pigs fly and Disney decides to put a polyamorous bisexual quartet in the next Star Wars movie... I'd be okay with that. As long as its consensual and no one's getting hurt, people can do as they please.
Hah, likewise ^^

Seriously, Finn has great chemistry with people in general. He's just so shippable and it's like, even though he *just met* Rey and Poe completely sells that he's besties with both of them and vice-versa. One of the things the movie did well.

Oh my God, Finn is a Mary Sue! He bent the universe around himself so successfully that it went Meta, and convinced us all that Rey, not Finn, was the Mary Sue.

:D
XD

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-25 12:35pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-24 12:34am
And yet, Superman #1 didn't start with Superman's family from Smallville. Again, the point here is that there isn't only one way to tell a good story. If you want to criticize a character, criticize them for not doing or being the things they need to be to be a good character. Don't criticize them over things that can be done without.
And my argument is Superman without his origins and his family is a weak character. Within the format of a movie, you need to have a sufficient background for the character. Campbell and others have written heavily on the 'call to adventure' introduction for the hero's journey.

It's important to show a sense of normalcy in the hero's lives before they set foot elsewhere. And that means it's rare to have mythological heroes that are loners.
You're behaving as if the first question is more important than the second.
It is important, because that established the morality of the secondary world.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Simon_Jester » 2018-01-25 06:06pm

You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-25 07:29pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-25 06:06pm
You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
Because he fails in a number of other ways, and that's established very early on. He's shown to be quite cowardly, he loses fights and has to learn to overcome his desire to flee into a desire to save his friends. He's friendly and nice as a person, but he wasn't a hero till much later. All his thoughts are motivated by self-interest in the early part of the film.

Rey has some issues over whether she would truly join the fight, but she was never depicted as a coward. She wins her fights and even defeated a trained force user. There's no fundamental weakness to her character, nor is there a true character arc for Rey. Who is Rey at the end of TFA vs who is Rey at the start of TFA? Did she grow in any way? Or was everything dictated merely by circumstances?

Han in the OT, like Finn, was someone growing from a self-interested rogue into someone willing to risk their lives to save their friends. Luke's arc is about learning to trust his feeling and embrace the force, something he was somewhat skeptical at the start of ANH. Leia didn't grow by much nor did she really have much of a character arc in ANH. She is a bit like Poe, more of a plot device.

It's important for main characters to grow and change within the context of a story. Finn underwent growth and change. Rey? Can the same be said for her? She didn't even overcome her issue with her heritage until TLJ, and its still hard to say she grew as a hero in any way.

It's why the "Hero's Journey" is so important to myth. How did Person A become a hero by the end of the story?

Even her little development in TLJ was effectively sidelined by Luke's Story, as well as Finn and Poe's. As the primary heroine, she's very underdeveloped while retaining all the abilities necessary to be a hero.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-25 09:17pm

Yes she grew up in some notable ways- Rey was a strong person in many ways but she was also tightly attached to staying at Jakku to wait for her missing parents. She had to be dragged away to help Finn and even then she still wanted back. Rey was a story of giving up an attachment. Note that when offered the Jedi lightsaber, she runs and gets caught- and I'd argue it's not that she's simply afraid of embracing it, but afraid embracing it means giving up on her parents. Also, latching on to Han as a parent-figure helped her out too, and Kylo killing him was to an extent losing her parents again, which made her rage against him.

Yea, she did still have issue with her parents in TLJ, but in TFA, especially at first, they were her driving goal, while by the time of TLJ, she can accept that they're gone and probably dead. By the end of TFA, she was at least at a spot where she could look outward and forward to other things. It was no longer her drive.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-25 10:02pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-25 06:06pm
You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
I made the point earlier that he should basically be a male version of Aeryn Sun. Emotionally stunted, socially out of place and having to fight his instincts a lot. He's equally poorly done, but he's fucking useless and doesn't stand out next to Rey, because Rey does all the things.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-25 10:14pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-01-25 10:02pm
Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-25 06:06pm
You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
I made the point earlier that he should basically be a male version of Aeryn Sun. Emotionally stunted, socially out of place and having to fight his instincts a lot.
That might seem more plausible, but I don't know that it would have been more entertaining as a film.

I'm so sick of constant dark shit. Yeah, you could make all the characters maladjusted anti-heroes, but would that really make for a better film? It would certainly be a very different film, if they played everything "realistically".
He's equally poorly done, but he's fucking useless and doesn't stand out next to Rey, because Rey does all the things.
Um, Finn is useless how?

He's not a superhuman, but he's portrayed as a competent fighter with inside knowledge of the First Order. Its true that he isn't of much use in TLJ, but he proves absolutely essential at multiple points in TFA.

Honestly, its hard not to smell an ugly odor of classism behind "Finn is useless"-type comments. I think a lot of it comes from "LOL, Janitor=loser".

As to Rey, I'll direct you to my prior list of things Rey can't do.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-25 10:33pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-25 10:14pm
That might seem more plausible, but I don't know that it would have been more entertaining as a film.

I'm so sick of constant dark shit. Yeah, you could make all the characters maladjusted anti-heroes, but would that really make for a better film? It would certainly be a very different film, if they played everything "realistically".
Then don't use a guy who left the FO an hour ago. Have him be some guy, left behind on a battlefield for dead who got up and was forced to realise there was more to life than goose stepping. They have complete creative control (especially in TFA) but they chose what they chose.
Um, Finn is useless how?

He's not a superhuman, but he's portrayed as a competent fighter with inside knowledge of the First Order. Its true that he isn't of much use in TLJ, but he proves absolutely essential at multiple points in TFA.
I said he's useless and doesn't stand out next to Rey. Specifically I was answering Simon as to why Rey gets most of the criticism than him. He needs her to fly. He gets his ass kicked by her. He needs her to help him as a gunner. He needs her to fix the gas leak. He needs her to speak to Chewie (and BB8). He needs her fix the hyperdrive. He needs her to save him from the rathtar. When it comes to stand up and do what's right or flee he chooses to flee while she chooses to run back into the fight. Han doesn't offer him a job. He even gets his ass kicked by his old subordinate with the electro tonfa (yeah, he's supposed to be that guys SQUAD LEADER). He does fuck all at Starkiller and his information still requires Han to detour (where Han dies). Lastly he gets his ass kicked by Kylo, while Kylo gets his ass kicked by Rey.
Honestly, its hard not to smell an ugly odor of classism behind "Finn is useless"-type comments. I think a lot of it comes from "LOL, Janitor=loser".
Why don't you try pointing out a scene with Finn and Rey where he's useful instead of holier than thou passive aggressive bullshit?
As to Rey, I'll direct you to my prior list of things Rey can't do.
And I'll direct you to the several, very long posts I've written that will explain why that list is delusional rubbish. None of your points are substantiated with examples.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Patroklos » 2018-01-26 01:11am

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-25 06:06pm
You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
Finn has been criticized for TFAs release day on that frint. I encourage you to go back to the TFA thread. The differerence is the nuCREW doesn't circle the wagons to explain away such obvious characterization problems like they do for Rey. It's accepted thus not often revisited.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-26 05:11am

One of the biggest problems with Mary Sue is it means that when there's a problem with a narrative involving a woman character with competent abilities, then people leap to "How can we make her NotAMarySueTM?" and not "Ok, what are the problems in how the story is told that can be adjusted?"

Because Rey's skillset? Isn't it. There's room for improvement in her plot, but making her crappier at stuff, or spending more time explaining her established skills, are both very unnecessary and unlikely to improve things.

And similarly, that's why making male usage of Mary Sue/an equal equivalent more common also wouldn't help, because the term usage is often a trap that gets in the way of narrative analysis anyway.
Kojiro wrote:
2018-01-25 10:33pm
And I'll direct you to the several, very long posts I've written that will explain why that list is delusional rubbish. None of your points are substantiated with examples.
In the last several pages, I really haven't seen anything that factually refutes the list- and I didn't have any trouble adding to the list with major applicable skills that come up often in Star Wars.

Calling it delusional rubbish... doesn't make it so. The skill-based argument still remains a very weak angle and it's been amply demonstrated so with evidence from the film. She's not as good at the stuff she's accused as being super-good at, the skill list makes a good amount of sense considering her job, and her skill set is very far complete in terms of plot-relevant skills.

Patroklos wrote: Finn has been criticized for TFAs release day on that frint. I encourage you to go back to the TFA thread. The differerence is the nuCREW doesn't circle the wagons to explain away such obvious characterization problems like they do for Rey. It's accepted thus not often revisited.
What? No, this is a new one on me. Finn's characterization is supposed to be an accepted problem? Nah, that's a large part of his point. And I can also point out he shows adept skill at socially faking his way through situations- just what one would have to develop to cover for not really being as Stormie as he should (though not enough to avoid garbage duty).

The large difference is more likely that there's less threads trying to drive in to us that, "no, really, Finn's got massive character problems," like we get with Rey. People seem really adamant on trying to convince everyone else that Rey's this really big Mary Sue, y'know? So yea, when the same arguments get brought out a bunch, then you'll hear the same shooting down of them because the flaws in the argument exist and that's the one being pushed.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-26 07:28am

Q99 wrote:
2018-01-26 05:11am
In the last several pages, I really haven't seen anything that factually refutes the list- and I didn't have any trouble adding to the list with major applicable skills that come up often in Star Wars.

Calling it delusional rubbish... doesn't make it so. The skill-based argument still remains a very weak angle and it's been amply demonstrated so with evidence from the film. She's not as good at the stuff she's accused as being super-good at, the skill list makes a good amount of sense considering her job, and her skill set is very far complete in terms of plot-relevant skills.
'The list' is a piss poor effort to defend a poorly written and executed character.

Let's do it then.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
The Grand List Of Things Rey Isn't Good At:

Practical Skills:

-Blaster Marksmanship.
Isn't she?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi4R8XMqZ_4
Oh yeah, she's just terrible. Imagine taking on 3 stormtroopers and killing two with 4 shots. Wow, she sucks.

OH RIGHT you mean she sucks when she encounters a literal monster from her force nightmare a minute ago! Yeah, I mean shit, those circumstances definitely disprove her earlier demonstration and provide not possible explanation for her panicked shots.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
-Countering hostile telekinesis.
At this point, she's known about the Force for an hour, is supremely freaked out and facing an experienced Force user who is neither wounded nor 'torn apart'. Yeah, really sucky that she can't counter a guy with a decade more experience than her. Just fucking terrible. I mean she gets thrown 20ft into a tree, slams onto the ground concussed... you could almost make the argument she was, I don't know, hurt or something during her TFA battle with Kylo! But you're right, it'll take what, 2 or 3 days before she's telekinetically as strong as Kylo? What a slow learner!
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
-Knowledge of Force Philosophy.
What the ever loving fuck. HAN SOLO didn't believe in the Force at one point. That idiot on the Death Star sasses Darth Vader he's so fucking ignorant. She's not special here.
-Knowledge of Galactic History.
She knows of the Millennium Falcon (albeit 14 parsecs is wrong), she knows of Han Solo AND she knows he used to be a smuggler before he became caught up in the Rebellion. Finn only knows him as a Rebel. She knows about the Resistance and the First Order and of course Luke. What's your comparison for her 'lack of knowledge'? Next to whom is she lacking in knowledge?
Mistakes Made/Objectives Failed:

-Panics, runs off on her own, and gets captured (thus indirectly causing the death of her first surrogate father figure).
Bullshit. Utter bullshit. Han was killed trying to talk to his son- a Force user who had specifically been told he'd have to confront his father. He was killed planting charges, not rescuing Rey. Rey never needed rescuing, she literally stumbles around a corner into Han and co. More over, her running off didn't get her captured. When she ran off, the First Order hadn't arrived. It was because she went back, because she told BB-8 she'd try to hold them off for him, that she got captured. In short, she got captured for trying to do the right thing. She had no fucking clue there'd be a Dark Side user there, or that he'd be after her (a girl in the forest running away from a FO attack? Fuck it MUST be the same girl from Jakku! No other girl would run from our ground forces!). It's actually because she's captured that Finn makes up his bullshit about needing to be there on the planet.
-Tempted by the Dark Side due to insecurities about her parentage and identity.
To no consequence whatsoever. She emerges from the cave unscathed. She isn't afraid to embrace her powers. She is never 'conflicted' in any way that give Ren an advantage over her. She's able to tell Ren 'No' to joining him. She's offered all the power, luxury and privilege of being a co leader of the First Order, to say nothing of joining a man she clearly has a deep connection to and it takes her zero time to decide she'd rather fight to the death. And when she wakes up, with Kylo at her feet unconscious, weapons all over the place, she walks away. We don't see her pondering executing him, she just leaves.
-Fails to persuade Luke to come out of retirement.
Once again, that's why Leia should have gone and not some unknown. It's not like Chewie has anymore success. Or Han's death. Or the fact she's asking on behalf of Leia. She doesn't know him worth a damn and he's been there for five years in the hardest to find place he could think of. What a fucking shock a stranger can't convince him to risk his life for a galaxy he's turned his back on. Hermit Luke is an asshole, he's not noble, optimistic, never give up Luke.
-Is manipulated by Snoke into overestimating her chances of redeeming Kylo Ren, willingly delivering herself into enemy custody.
Yeah, how'd that work out for her? Oh that's right, Snoke dead, Kylo unconscious and nearly assassinated by Hux while she walks out of the throne room so trivially easily it was done off screen. What's that Rey? You got captured, but Snoke is dead and you walked out with a little cut on your arm? Wow, total failure. Just a devastating blow to the Resistance. And she stole Snoke's personal craft (probably a decent ride) for kicks.

I mean fucking seriously, she got manipulated into a series of events that killed Snoke, by Snoke. The 'failure' here was not 'I got a scratch on my arm' Rey's.
-Fails to redeem Kylo Ren.
First up, it ain't over yet. Secondly she didn't even try to redeem him. She showed up, went "I had a vision!" at him. He said "Nah, I totes had the vision!" and then shockingly they were both wrong, neither turned and they walked out as they walked in. Almost like just rocking up and telling someone they're going to join the Light/the Dark Side isn't quite enough to make it happen.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-26 04:07pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-01-23 08:34am
Instead of more exposition, they could have included a few seconds establishing some piloting skills during her introduction. For example, maybe a brief shot showing her killing time by playing with a salvaged flight simulator in the wrecked AT-AT she's living in. It would establish having some piloting skills more than just saying, "I'm a pilot," and also be a good explanation as to why she screws up the take-off when she and Finn commandeer the Falcon, but is able to do much, much better once she's in the air.
Or have her speeder bike be a larger sort of flying vehicle. It also would take little additional exposition to show that she's flown her boss' ship for him but she needs his key to activate the controls. During the attack she goes to get him so they can get off the planet and she finds his smoldering body but, fortunately, the key wasn't damaged.

I'm not sure what the narrative advantage is of having her be a freelance salvager but establishing her as a trusted (to an extent) slave whom the master might have treated as a favored pet might explain her additional practical knowledge of the world. It would certainly explain her proficiency with flying the boss' ship which, surprise! it's the Falcon. You can still keep the joke of the blowing up ship. Run towards ship, that looks like a great ship! It explodes. "That's our ride!" No, it's the one behind it. That hunk of junk? Haha, callback.
I have no problem with her having the skills she does, but I do acknowledge that they really didn't do much to establish her piloting ability in TFA until she was already putting those skills to use. ANH also relied a bit more on telling versus showing with Luke's piloting, but there were at least several references to Luke having those skills prior to him getting into the X-wing. Imagine if no one made any reference to Luke being a good pilot until he was already making his Death Star trench run.
It seems a bit of a reach that a civilian flyer has similar controls to a space fighter. Sort of like "I flew my dad's Cessna 172 so I should be ready for an F-16!" But in Nazi Germany training in civilian gliders paid off for young pilots who eventually jointed the Luftwaffe. WWII fighters are a bit simpler than 4th gen jet fighters. The radio play had Luke doing well int he sims before they put him in an actual X-Wing. The logic of why the Republic would put a n00b in the cockpit is clear: we need every crate in the air and if this kid can keep from plastering himself on the runway, maybe he'll distract some TIE's from pilots who might actually score a hit. That he didn't get himself killed, maybe the fighters are easier to fly than Earth analogues it's still a reach but one we overlook because of an engaging story. But, given the effects possible at the time, what Luke pulled off is far simpler than the antics Rey got up to. And we didn't see Luke flying AND sword fighting like a badass in the same film.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by jollyreaper » 2018-01-26 04:16pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2018-01-25 06:06pm
You know, it's funny, nobody complains about how the guy who's supposed to be brainwashed loyalist drone for the First Order turns out to be so friendly and likeable...
I have. Maybe not where you saw it but I have.

I think, as written, Finn would not be so bad if he were written as not a child soldier but someone from a crappy planet out in the Unknown Regions who saw the First Order as a way to get out there and see the galaxy. He didn't realize he was signing on with a fanatic murder cult and jumped ship at his first opportunity. He has too much personality for a brainwashed soldier.

If you keep the child soldier backstory his whole personality and demeanor would have to be different. He'd basically be like a North Korean soldier and it would take some massive deprogramming to reshape his world view. It would take some sort of crisis of faith. Just seeing a friend die could do it if he's a normal recruit but it would probably take something more than that for a hardcore believer. After all, indoctrination would say you're going to die in service to the cause and his friend did so no rub there, right? I thin it would take up less screentime to explain the defection of someone who spent most of their life a civilian and could more readily be expected to say "Whoa, I did NOT sign up for this crap!" Shooting up a civilian village full of non-combatants would do the trick.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-26 05:00pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-01-26 07:28am
'The list' is a piss poor effort to defend a poorly written and executed character.
Look, if a criticism of something is largely based on their abilities, if you get them factually wrong, then it says a lot more on you than it does them,

You inflate the perceived flaws of the character in order to fit your narrative.

We shall indeed do this:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
Isn't she?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi4R8XMqZ_4
Oh yeah, she's just terrible. Imagine taking on 3 stormtroopers and killing two with 4 shots. Wow, she sucks.

OH RIGHT you mean she sucks when she encounters a literal monster from her force nightmare a minute ago! Yeah, I mean shit, those circumstances definitely disprove her earlier demonstration and provide not possible explanation for her panicked shots.
Which still makes her, dun dun dun, the worst of the cast at it as Finn and Han both do better (more kills, more accuracy), and the Kylo scene is 2/3rds of her shots.

Also? Her being terrified and missing Kylo repeatedly is not exactly selling the 'she's great at everything' point. Piss-poor excuse on your part here and one that plays into the dismissing of her flaws to fit the half-assed mary sue narrative.

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-22 06:55pm
To no consequence whatsoever. She emerges from the cave unscathed. She isn't afraid to embrace her powers. She is never 'conflicted' in any way that give Ren an advantage over her.
Her conflict leads her to being tied to chair and interrogated in the first movie. And her being too eager to embrace her powers in the second is a large part of why Luke doesn't want to teach her. Piss-poor excuse 2 and 3!

Once again, that's why Leia should have gone and not some unknown. It's not like Chewie has anymore success. Or Han's death. Or the fact she's asking on behalf of Leia. She doesn't know him worth a damn and he's been there for five years in the hardest to find place he could think of. What a fucking shock a stranger can't convince him to risk his life for a galaxy he's turned his back on. Hermit Luke is an asshole, he's not noble, optimistic, never give up Luke.
Ok, so you're.... admitting she didn't do well here, just for good reason. Which is admitting that hey, it's right. So much for the list being piss-poor. Piss-poor excuse 4.

Yeah, how'd that work out for her? Oh that's right, Snoke dead, Kylo unconscious and nearly assassinated by Hux while she walks out of the throne room so trivially easily it was done off screen. What's that Rey? You got captured, but Snoke is dead and you walked out with a little cut on your arm? Wow, total failure. Just a devastating blow to the Resistance. And she stole Snoke's personal craft (probably a decent ride) for kicks.

I mean fucking seriously, she got manipulated into a series of events that killed Snoke, by Snoke. The 'failure' here was not 'I got a scratch on my arm' Rey's.
Kylo being in charge isn't exactly a win for her either. Really that was her getting dragged into darksider politics.

First up, it ain't over yet. Secondly she didn't even try to redeem him. She showed up, went "I had a vision!" at him. He said "Nah, I totes had the vision!" and then shockingly they were both wrong, neither turned and they walked out as they walked in. Almost like just rocking up and telling someone they're going to join the Light/the Dark Side isn't quite enough to make it happen.
She totally did try to redeem him- she tried convincing him to turn, she developed a personal connection during their conversations, she kept calling him Ben, wanted him to step away from where he was.... which he *kinda* did but only in a still-darkside way. And yea, this pretty much did put a nail in the coffin of him turning and "it's not over yet," still also means so far... she's failed in existing material.

Another piss-poor excuse!


The list is way better than the half-assed rejection of the list.


And there's still my 'she's not as good at social skills or coming up with plans as the other leads like Finn, Poe, etc.," who are good at bluffing and improvising.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-01-26 08:40pm

You misattributed your quotes there, I think.

And it increasingly seems that there's little point arguing with these people. To them, it is self-evident that Rey is a "Mary Sue" and overly-perfect in every way, because she is a woman, or because she is a character in a movie they don't like because it didn't perfectly fit their vision of what Star Wars "should" be. Any contrary evidence may be ignored to fit with the movie that they watched in their heads, and any attempt to call out their double-standards and biases may be met with faux-victim indignation and/or an attempt to reflect the accusation back onto the accuser.

They may not all be Alt. Reichists, but their rhetorical tactics of double-standards, ignoring evidence, and then playing the victim when called on it are regrettably similar.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Q99 » 2018-01-26 10:13pm

(Yea, I was quoting a quote and didn't clean up enough)

Or at the very least, missing a lot of the themes of the film- and several events therein.

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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-27 01:46am

Q99 wrote:
2018-01-26 05:00pm
Look, if a criticism of something is largely based on their abilities, if you get them factually wrong, then it says a lot more on you than it does them,
Sure, but I didn't get anything wrong.
You inflate the perceived flaws of the character in order to fit your narrative.
You say this and then you proceed to cut my quotes up and pretend bits aren't there? Unlike you, I will not leave out a word of your arguments.
Which still makes her, dun dun dun, the worst of the cast at it as Finn and Han both do better (more kills, more accuracy), and the Kylo scene is 2/3rds of her shots.
Does Finn actually get more blaster kills? Does he? I think you need to go count that sunshine. And I don't give a shit if she's 'worse' than the legendary Han Solo. The POINT you're dodging is that it was claimed she wasn't good at things- not that there was someone better.
Also? Her being terrified and missing Kylo repeatedly is not exactly selling the 'she's great at everything' point. Piss-poor excuse on your part here and one that plays into the dismissing of her flaws to fit the half-assed mary sue narrative.
Oh fuck off. The context the skill is used in absolutely matters. I'll bet you were all about the context when she beat Ren because of his wound and being torn right? I'm not the one dismissing the actual narrative and context of the movie here- that's you. Fact is blaster on blaster she performs extremely well.

OH LOOK. HERE'S WHERE YOU JUST SKIP FOUR WHOLE ARGUMENTS. Oh but it's *me* that's trying to fit the narrative. Almost like you had no argument because the list you're trying to support was bullshit.
Her conflict leads her to being tied to chair and interrogated in the first movie. And her being too eager to embrace her powers in the second is a large part of why Luke doesn't want to teach her. Piss-poor excuse 2 and 3!
You went to town with the editing here. Now you're trying to conflate the 'tempted with the Darkside' bit with her getting captured. I especially love the way you cut out one of the larger paragraphs to do this. She runs off because she's freaked out by a vision, not because she's conflicted. The moment she sees the FO ships arriving she's heading back into the fight. Now I wrote that before, but you snipped it, so I have to say it again. As for Luke's reticence to teach, that's bullshit too. He doesn't want to teach because a) he thinks the Jedi should end, but he teaches her anyway and b) when he does, it's her raw power that scares him more than anything. Do I have to play you a clip? And fuck off with the 'being captured and interrogated rubbish. She does not give up the map, she overpowers Kylo and she literally walks out unharmed.

Nice failure to address everything after the snip too.
Ok, so you're.... admitting she didn't do well here, just for good reason. Which is admitting that hey, it's right. So much for the list being piss-poor. Piss-poor excuse 4.
No you illiterate, I'm saying the task was fucking monumentally hard. You can't just someone's abilities based on their failure to achieve a singular, incredibly difficult task.
Kylo being in charge isn't exactly a win for her either. Really that was her getting dragged into darksider politics.
Again, I love the way you just fail to respond to everything and go for this. Kylo being in change isn't a win? Over the much more dangerous (in every way) Snoke? Is that seriously your argument? That it'd be better for her if Snoke was alive?
She totally did try to redeem him- she tried convincing him to turn, she developed a personal connection during their conversations, she kept calling him Ben, wanted him to step away from where he was.... which he *kinda* did but only in a still-darkside way. And yea, this pretty much did put a nail in the coffin of him turning and "it's not over yet," still also means so far... she's failed in existing material.

Another piss-poor excuse!
Yes, it is. She also called him a monster, a title he accepted readily. And shot at him, which given the way the rain water transferred may have been dangerous has the connection not been severed. Then she has an (unseen) force vision and off she goes. She doesn't try to convert him because she's seen him join her- probably against the guards with Snoke dead in the background- classically misinterpreting her vision. But we didn't see it (or his) so who the fuck knows?
And there's still my 'she's not as good at social skills or coming up with plans as the other leads like Finn, Poe, etc.," who are good at bluffing and improvising.
What social faux pas did she commit that makes you think she's not good at socialising? And by my count Finn has one plan and she has one plan. After that she's in different situations to them. So come on, where's your examples?
The list is way better than the half-assed rejection of the list.
He says, cutting out swathes of text and failing to address several points in any way.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-26 08:40pm
And it increasingly seems that there's little point arguing with these people. To them, it is self-evident that Rey is a "Mary Sue" and overly-perfect in every way, because she is a woman, or because she is a character in a movie they don't like because it didn't perfectly fit their vision of what Star Wars "should" be.
Or maybe, just maybe, because she's an overpowered character the narrative is bent around? Wow, if only there was some way we could make claims, counter claims, discuss and critique each other to attempt to discover the truth! Nah, better to just make passive aggressive attacks at people than confront contrary ideas right?
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-26 08:40pm
Any contrary evidence may be ignored to fit with the movie that they watched in their heads, and any attempt to call out their double-standards and biases may be met with faux-victim indignation and/or an attempt to reflect the accusation back onto the accuser.
Give me one example of ignoring evidence or a double standard by me. And I'm not playing any victim- bring it on. When I got called out, I put in the effort to substantiate my points. I mean shit, I could literally quote your own post back at you with some changes:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-26 08:40pm
And it increasingly seems that there's little point arguing with these people. To them, it is self-evident that Rey is a balanced character and perfect in every way, because she is a woman, or because she is a character in a movie they like because it perfectly fit their vision of what Star Wars "should" be. Any contrary evidence may be ignored to fit with the movie that they watched in their heads, and any attempt to call out their double-standards and biases may be met with faux-victim indignation and/or an attempt to reflect the accusation back onto the accuser.
See how utterly vacuous that is? How pathetic it is?
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-26 08:40pm
They may not all be Alt. Reichists, but their rhetorical tactics of double-standards, ignoring evidence, and then playing the victim when called on it are regrettably similar.
Aww, finally we come to the guilt by association plea. Come back when you have actual argument, we can debate, and we'll see who has the integrity to concede if they're wrong.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by ray245 » 2018-01-27 11:58am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-01-26 08:40pm
You misattributed your quotes there, I think.

And it increasingly seems that there's little point arguing with these people. To them, it is self-evident that Rey is a "Mary Sue" and overly-perfect in every way, because she is a woman, or because she is a character in a movie they don't like because it didn't perfectly fit their vision of what Star Wars "should" be. Any contrary evidence may be ignored to fit with the movie that they watched in their heads, and any attempt to call out their double-standards and biases may be met with faux-victim indignation and/or an attempt to reflect the accusation back onto the accuser.

They may not all be Alt. Reichists, but their rhetorical tactics of double-standards, ignoring evidence, and then playing the victim when called on it are regrettably similar.
We have rules against ignoring evidence in a debate in this forum. If the mods think there's actually debating rules being broken, they will let us know. You don't get to pretend everyone else is somehow worse at debating than you just because they disagreed with you. You need to actually show when is a double-standard actually being made against Rey.
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Re: How to make Rey a NON-Mary Sue

Post by Kojiro » 2018-01-27 12:15pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-01-27 11:58am
We have rules against ignoring evidence in a debate in this forum. If the mods think there's actually debating rules being broken, they will let us know. You don't get to pretend everyone else is somehow worse at debating than you just because they disagreed with you. You need to actually show when is a double-standard actually being made against Rey.
While you're at it, you can explain why I really like Rogue One or don't have any gripes about Jyn?
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