First Order warship gigantification

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First Order warship gigantification

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-12-22 05:51pm

I presuppose that the gigantified Star Destroyers of the First Order is because, without the vast network of bases and expansive logistics chain of the Empire, First Order capships and super-capital ships have to be logistically self-contained, so combat performance wise it's possible that they're not as souped up as OT ISDs? At least, proportionately? They can't do Devastator (Vader's ISD)-style running down of enemy ships.

But maybe they don't need to? They don't have Empire-levels of territory to defend, we see that all they need to do is hyper in and wreck shit and hyper out (almost like the OT Rebels). And their TIEs are supposedly hyper-equipped.

Lacking the Empire's territory and supply chain (sure they have some worlds, they also had Starkiller Base and Snoke's super-duper-ship, but that's a pittance compared to the Empire's holdings), they had to be lean and mean, perhaps - and ironically - becoming doctrinally similar to the Rebels' hit and run style.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-12-22 08:08pm

Well those big ships don't seem to be tactically or strategically nimble enough (granted I've not seen The Last Jedi yet). They seem more like "fear my massive ships!" like terror weapons they mobile logistic bases (after all logistics isn't something you can remove from the equation), also The First Order seems to lack any light strike craft between their troop transports and the Star Destroyers.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-23 11:14am

This is canon, yes. The Mega class for instance, has according to the ICS, asteroid mining facilities, star-destroyer shipyards, and division and corps-scale mustering grounds and practice areas on board. Even a sportsball-arena sized auditorium. It's got a lot more volume devoted to non-naval tasks than a traditional starship.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2017-12-23 03:04pm

There's a TLJ ICS? Did Saxton write it?
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-23 06:48pm

Jason Fry. Dr Saxton's not working with Lucasfilm any more.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Galvatron » 2017-12-23 09:37pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2017-12-22 05:51pm
Lacking the Empire's territory and supply chain (sure they have some worlds, they also had Starkiller Base and Snoke's super-duper-ship, but that's a pittance compared to the Empire's holdings), they had to be lean and mean, perhaps - and ironically - becoming doctrinally similar to the Rebels' hit and run style.
With that in mind, I wonder how crippling it was to lose their superweapon, their command ship and their supreme leader within a timespan of mere days.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Q99 » 2017-12-23 11:02pm

They've got to be aching. Not everyone on the Sovereign died in a long shot, but a large chunk did and they certainly have to scuttle it. The crew of the Siege Dreadnaught is a total loss, though, as are the crews of a lot of Resurgent class Star Destroyers.

Interestingly, the visual dictionary says they had 'at least 30 Resurgent class Star Destroyers.' Which... really says as strong as their position is, I think they might've lost a fairly notable portion of their fleet strength due to Holdo and a bomber raid. Something like, what, 10-20%?
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2017-12-22 05:51pm
I presuppose that the gigantified Star Destroyers of the First Order is because, without the vast network of bases and expansive logistics chain of the Empire, First Order capships and super-capital ships have to be logistically self-contained, so combat performance wise it's possible that they're not as souped up as OT ISDs? At least, proportionately? They can't do Devastator (Vader's ISD)-style running down of enemy ships.

But maybe they don't need to? They don't have Empire-levels of territory to defend, we see that all they need to do is hyper in and wreck shit and hyper out (almost like the OT Rebels). And their TIEs are supposedly hyper-equipped.

Lacking the Empire's territory and supply chain (sure they have some worlds, they also had Starkiller Base and Snoke's super-duper-ship, but that's a pittance compared to the Empire's holdings), they had to be lean and mean, perhaps - and ironically - becoming doctrinally similar to the Rebels' hit and run style.
Hit and run but with an emphasis on larger ships....and they do take kids to conscript as Stormies. So some similarities, but major differences. Maybe being so ship-based is designed so they can abandoned territory if needed?


I'm going to also suggest that the emphasis on size was not entirely a strategic choice, but based a lot on psychology of their attempt to be "The Empire, but better." Ships that are individually larger as intimidation tools and to pack more roles into one frame. Local superiority to give the impression they can't be fought, like Finn was initially convinced of. This is not a fleet to control territory so much as to gain local advantage whereever it is.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2017-12-23 11:12pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-23 06:48pm
Jason Fry. Dr Saxton's not working with Lucasfilm any more.

Does he mention the gigatons?
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by ray245 » 2017-12-24 05:41am

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
2017-12-23 11:12pm
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-23 06:48pm
Jason Fry. Dr Saxton's not working with Lucasfilm any more.

Does he mention the gigatons?
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Galvatron » 2017-12-24 05:20pm

NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-24 10:02am
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
2017-12-23 11:12pm
Does he mention the gigatons?
Quite the opposite. The Ninka, Admiral Holdo's cute little ship, has bombs of one hundred megatons as its bunker-busting armament. These are great big honkin' space bombs, and are a complete refutation of the AotC ICS' figures.
I'm more annoyed by the unnecessary reference to the Nebulon-B as an Imperial ship. Thus far, we have NEVER seen it in use by the Empire in any of the new canon or EU material. Not only that, but the Nebulon-C carries a whole wing of fighters? Where?!?

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Q99 » 2017-12-24 09:22pm

Interesting tidbit- the Supremacy is the FO Headquarters and mobile shipyard. So it is a means of going, "The Republic is coming to attack our fleetbase, let's just run the whole thing away from them!".

That both tells us a lot about their approach, and just how big a loss that was- not just a big hammer and flagship, Holdo took out a chunk of their shipbuilding capacity too.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Rogue 9 » 2017-12-24 11:33pm

Realistically, for a bunker-buster that's still way more than you need. And the ship is a corvette. I don't think we can reasonably infer that 100MT is now the upper limit of Star Wars weaponry or anything.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by APlayerHater » 2017-12-25 05:18pm

I attribute the gigantification of the ships to the "same but bigger" approach the new films have.

Bigger death star. Bigger force powers. Bigger capital ships. Meh.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Imperial528 » 2017-12-26 03:57am

SAAA wrote:
2017-12-25 12:32pm
Indeed, it's almost hilarious how that huge bomb is also much bigger than a real life Tsar bomb and they have supposedly the same yield... feel like they missed a few zeros there, because even if it was purely fusion such a device could easily sit in the tens of gigatons range.
I was bored and decided to do some quick and dirty scaling from the image.

You could fit 3.5 GT in B53 warheads in that bomb (scaling a size of 38m length by 8m diameter vs the B53's 3.76m L 1.3m D). The B53 has a yield of 9MT (just about what is necessary for surface detonations to collapse underground bunkers at significant depth), and that bomb is big enough to fit just under four hundred of them.

I know that sci fi authors have a rare and fleeting sense of scale, but usually they end up on the high end, amusing that this was the opposite.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by wautd » 2017-12-26 08:13am

Galvatron wrote:
2017-12-23 09:37pm
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2017-12-22 05:51pm
Lacking the Empire's territory and supply chain (sure they have some worlds, they also had Starkiller Base and Snoke's super-duper-ship, but that's a pittance compared to the Empire's holdings), they had to be lean and mean, perhaps - and ironically - becoming doctrinally similar to the Rebels' hit and run style.
With that in mind, I wonder how crippling it was to lose their superweapon, their command ship and their supreme leader within a timespan of mere days.
At least they still have plenty of capital ships at at least one more dreadnought. In contrast, the tiny fleet that the rebels started with is completely whiped out.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-12-26 08:33am

wautd wrote:
2017-12-26 08:13am
Galvatron wrote:
2017-12-23 09:37pm
Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2017-12-22 05:51pm
Lacking the Empire's territory and supply chain (sure they have some worlds, they also had Starkiller Base and Snoke's super-duper-ship, but that's a pittance compared to the Empire's holdings), they had to be lean and mean, perhaps - and ironically - becoming doctrinally similar to the Rebels' hit and run style.
With that in mind, I wonder how crippling it was to lose their superweapon, their command ship and their supreme leader within a timespan of mere days.
At least they still have plenty of capital ships at at least one more dreadnought. In contrast, the tiny fleet that the rebels started with is completely whiped out.
The off-screen "allies" can give both the Resistance in-universe and the writers out-of-universe leeway. I'd like to imagine that without Starkiller base and the Supremacy, by the third movie we'll see the FO end up being ragged and eventually when the Resistance lasts long enough and the FO gets enough attrition, or if the Knights of Ren, Hux and Kylo have a power struggle, the FO's depletion will be enough so that the remaining Resistance-sympathizers will come in Riders of Rohan-style (with Poe or whoever having to do some diplomacy? Leia off-screen gathering aid?) for the climax, with all sorts of nostalgiabait oldie callback vessels emerging - Y-Wings, B-Wings, more Mon Cals, Hammerheads, even those Rebel Transports of dubious use, etc. - from hyperspace to batter the FO remains while our protags have their obligatory Big Damn Hero face off moments.
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Galvatron » 2017-12-26 01:13pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2017-12-26 08:33am
Leia off-screen gathering aid?) for the climax, with all sorts of nostalgiabait oldie callback vessels emerging - Y-Wings, B-Wings, more Mon Cals, Hammerheads, even those Rebel Transports of dubious use, etc. - from hyperspace to batter the FO remains while our protags have their obligatory Big Damn Hero face off moments.
Makes sense. I like to imagine that's exactly what Mon Mothma was doing in the years between the end of ANH and ROTJ while Leia's forces were focused on launching military offensives against Imperial targets from their hidden base.

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by tezunegari » 2017-12-26 03:12pm

Wasn't Mon Mothma the one to propose a demilitarization by 90% in the Novel Aftermath?
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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by Galvatron » 2017-12-26 03:20pm

Yes, but what does that have to do with her activities during the war?

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Re: First Order warship gigantification

Post by NecronLord » 2017-12-27 08:44am

I've split the hijack regarding Dr Saxton's previous work, and given its nature, relocated it here.
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