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Nephtys wrote: ↑2018-01-09 02:57pm That's the difference between meaningful discussion, and just being a really cringe-worthy-fancreature.

An interesting discussion could be:

If you say so. I will admit there are arguments that I'm not interested in, but that doesn't make it invalid.

What is Leia's purpose as a character in the movie? So much of her plot is more or less being tired and looking to just retire to someone else. That may or may not be a good thematic

She really doesn't have one which is why they side lined her. It's a cop out while still having an OT cast in to draw fans. If they were honest and didn't want her in, all they had to do is have General Organa take a time out due to grief. Grief over Han and her son is more than fair enough to sideline her character.

But they didn't, they tried to both distance us from her and connect with her at the same time, let alone the mind numbingly dumb floating princess scene which pretty much ruined her character. To boot, the character is still alive even though now the actress is dead, so now they have to ad hoc something in Ep IX.

Or: "Does the fact that Rose knocks Finn's sled away to stop a sacrifice underscore the fact that Admiral Wholefoods saved everyone with a sacrifice?"

Rose's move was so hamfisted, added on top of Finn's out of character move in the first place. It was horrible set up to deliver her one good line. That said, Admiral Dern (I'm assuming this is Admiral Wholefoods) sacrificed only herself and needlessly for a dumb plan, but it was her dumb plan. Her final move was just as reckless as she accused Poe of being.

Or: "Was Canto Bight a waste of time?"

Yes.

Those are entirely valid discussions that I think add to a community.
Asking 'Why do bombs fall out of the ship' is stupid and inane in a setting where interstellar starfighters pull immelmans to laser machine gun space BF-109s, particularly when so much of what disbelief needs to be suspended has been long established.

I actually think those are valid problems considering what we've seen in this galaxy. If this was the first movie ever in SW, then fine. But we've seen way better,logical, and consistent weapons delivery in SW before. This is a major step backwards, both in scope and in theme.

It was placed in there so unnamed character can have a tense moment and kick the ladder to push the button to launch the bombs to destroy the ship to prove Poe was... wrong I guess.

I find it so fascinating that this movie is divisive: I think it had to be, because TFA took so few risks. Without TLJ basically doing something very different, the franchise is doomed to repeat mistakes of that marvel movies era from a few years ago, where each successive superhero sequel was indistinguishable and formulaic.

Yes, because for some reason a 'standard' Star Wars wouldn't make good money, they had to make one where lots of people thought was really bad. LOL.

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-09 09:46am Get off your high horse, Vympel. There are perfectly legitimate reasons why people find some scenes jarring. Some of us simply don't like the use of technology as a Deus Ex Machina.

... And some of those 'legitimate' reasons are just cover for really ugly emotions and prejudices. Which is why I said some reasons for hating the movie were a lot uglier than others.

Knife wrote: ↑2018-01-09 08:38pm I actually think those are valid problems considering what we've seen in this galaxy. If this was the first movie ever in SW, then fine. But we've seen way better,logical, and consistent weapons delivery in SW before. This is a major step backwards, both in scope and in theme.

Again, TIE Bombers were observed dropping bombs that way in TESB. If the internet had existed back when SW or TESB had come out nerds would've had a field day with both of them. The idea that SW and TESB are somehow unimpeachably or even substantially 'better' in terms of weapons and tactics is just rose-colored glasses talking.

- Why isn't the Death Star's thermal exhaust port particle shielded? The Empire are so incompetent. This movie's dumb.
- Why didn't the Death Star send out TIE Fighters to shoot down the Rebel fighters well before they arrived at the Death Star? The Empire are so incompetent. This movie's dumb.
- Why did the Death Star launch so few fighters when they did launch? The Empire is so incompetent. Vader's an idiot. This movie's dumb.
- Why didn't the Empire just send Star Destroyers to Yavin IV before the Death Star got there, blow it to bits with their TIE Fighters, and then destroy it with the Death Star? This movie's dumb.
- AT-AT's suck. They can be tripped over by a cable. This movie's dumb.
- The rebels are so stupid. They're flying straight at the walkers for no reason. This movie's dumb.
- How did the Falcon get to Bespin from Anoat without a hyperdrive? This movie's dumb.
- LOL, the Imperials are so stupid they almost crashed three Star Destroyers together. This movie's dumb.

And on, and on, and on, and on. One could literally go on all day with this stuff. The only reason they don't is because people engaged with the fiction beyond surface level "look how much smarter I am than this dumb script" complaining.

And frankly, given how SW space combat has always drawn on WW2 motifs, especially from famous WW2 films, that people are complaining that Rian Johnson decided to get his 12 O'Clock High on, like its some sort of betrayal of the setting, is hilarious. WW2-in-space is Star Wars.

But no, I'm not saying you don't "get" it. I'm saying that if you liked the movie's actual story then you'd be more inclined to extend good faith to the plot. You don't. It is what it is.

Yes, because for some reason a 'standard' Star Wars wouldn't make good money, they had to make one where lots of people thought was really bad. LOL.

A 'standard' Star Wars would make good money, sure. And hey, the one after that too. And maybe the one after that. Maybe.

Geezuz. H. Fucking. Christmas.

I don't even know where to begin...

Vympel wrote: ↑2018-01-09 10:24pm ... And some of those 'legitimate' reasons are just cover for really ugly emotions and prejudices. Which is why I said some reasons for hating the movie were a lot uglier than others.

I take offense at your implication that there can be no legitimate criticism of the movie and lump people who have issues with this movie as basically neo-nazis.

Fuck off Vympel. And that's me speaking as someone who thinks that TLJ is a better movie than TFA.

Ray, you seem to not be parsing the word 'some' there.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-01-10 05:15am Ray, you seem to not be parsing the word 'some' there.

What's the point of bringing up neo-nazis when none of us here are making any arguments of theirs?

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 05:13am I take offense at your implication that there can be no legitimate criticism of the movie and lump people who have issues with this movie as basically neo-nazis.

Fuck off Vympel. And that's me speaking as someone who thinks that TLJ is a better movie than TFA.

Oh get fucked - like Crazedwraith said, "some" isn't there for no reason. I never said - or implied - that there can be no legitimate criticism.

What's the point of bringing up neo-nazis when none of us here are making any arguments of theirs?

"Neo-nazis"? While it's undoubtedly true that cesspools like RT's audience reviews are lousy with one or two sentence 1/2 star reviews sprinkled with rhetoric about "SJWs" and "political agendas" and "feminisation" that does't run the full gamut of uglyness. In any event, pointing out that some dislike for the movie comes from an ugly place is legitimate - why should you be defensive about that? I was talking to Nephtys in general terms, not accusing anyone.

Vympel wrote: ↑2018-01-10 05:48am Oh get fucked - like Crazedwraith said, "some" isn't there for no reason. I never said - or implied - that there can be no legitimate criticism.

And why did you even bring them up in the first place? The way I see it, you want to take some sort of moral high ground over your movie preference.

"Neo-nazis"? While it's undoubtedly true that cesspools like RT's audience reviews are lousy with one or two sentence 1/2 star reviews sprinkled with rhetoric about "SJWs" and "political agendas" and "feminisation" that does't run the full gamut of uglyness.

Who gives a crap about what random youtubers posters are saying or what users on RT are posting?

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 05:55am And why did you even bring them up in the first place? The way I see it, you want to take some sort of moral high ground over your movie preference.

Like I already said in my post above - I was talking to Nephtys, not accusing anyone. Stop being so damn defensive.

Who gives a crap about what random youtubers posters are saying or what users on RT are posting?

I do, given how much people are trying to derive popular legitimacy for their views by pointing at the RT audience score.

Vympel wrote: ↑2018-01-10 06:21am I do, given how much people are trying to derive popular legitimacy for their views by pointing at the RT audience score.

And why should that matter in this forum?

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 06:22am And why should that matter in this forum?

Because it's part of the Last Jedi discourse and this is the release thread? Stop being obtuse.

Vympel wrote: ↑2018-01-10 07:42am

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 06:22am And why should that matter in this forum?

Because it's part of the Last Jedi discourse and this is the release thread? Stop being obtuse.

I don't see anyone in this thread making any criticism even remotely similar to those neo-nazi idiots. So there's no need to even bring them up as a way to invalidate those of us having legitimate issues with this movie.

Having concerns about world-building consistency is just as legitimate as having issues with the plot and themes of the movie.

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 09:17am I don't see anyone in this thread making any criticism even remotely similar to those neo-nazi idiots. So there's no need to even bring them up as a way to invalidate those of us having legitimate issues with this movie.

Having concerns about world-building consistency is just as legitimate as having issues with the plot and themes of the movie.

It can be. And it can also be a barely disguised cover for much uglier things. I know this statement of the obvious irrationally upsets you for some reason, but it is still self-evidently true.

Vympel wrote: ↑2018-01-10 09:35am

ray245 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 09:17am I don't see anyone in this thread making any criticism even remotely similar to those neo-nazi idiots. So there's no need to even bring them up as a way to invalidate those of us having legitimate issues with this movie.

Having concerns about world-building consistency is just as legitimate as having issues with the plot and themes of the movie.

It can be. And it can also be a barely disguised cover for much uglier things. I know this statement of the obvious irrationally upsets you for some reason, but it is still self-evidently true.

And how is that not accusing us of being irrational or being in the same boat as them?

Vympel wrote:The only reason that was a risk within the film's narrative was because Hux was offered the opportunity to shift fire to Raddus as she changed course (which necessarily would've closed the distance to where her shields wouldn't protect her) and declined, thinking she was just making a course change to distract them.

As we saw when Supremacy destroyed the Vigil (that one almost immediately after they pounced) Anodyne and Ninka, if any of those ships had turned around earlier they would've been obliterated in a few shots well before they executed a jump.

If Hux had fired on Raddus the moment he had the chance as opposed to when it was obviously too late, things would have turned out differently.

The films' narative was that ramming another ship using hyperspeed was some new genius move on the part of the rebel admiral not that Hux specifically is dumb. Even Poe needs a few beats to realize the genius of the act. Of course the moment you establish that it is indeed possible to hurt a ship with hyperspeed ramming it becomes the most obvious thing in the world. It is such a devastating and obvious tactic that it should be the primary concern of every single space soldier to the point that they should be waking up in cold sweat thinking about it. I mean even the escorting star destroyers were cut into ribbons by the debris resulting from the impact.

It would be like chasing an elderly woman in a wheelchair and a guy with a lightsaber and then the guy with a lightsaber ignites it and starts turning towards you but you start punching the elderly woman in a wheelchair because you are "incompetent". Huh? I mean do First Order dudes have any instinctive self preservation skills?

Vympel wrote:It really shouldn't - that would serve to cement it as some sort of new tactic, which I think they should avoid. Heck, if the First Order had the equivalent of interdictor cruisers the entire plot of the movie would be different.

Oh of course, I was only joking. Taking the hyperspeed ramming to its logical conclusion would've completely changed the visuals of SW combat. Which is why they shouldn't have introduced it in the first place.

Vympel wrote:https://i.imgur.com/tkTMo7K.jpg

A sneaky strawman that is yess yess hehehehe.
This is not about wanting to see Rey have a 20 minute Rocky Balboa training montage nor are most people that say she's a Mary Sue saying that Luke's 2 day journey from "want to go to Toshi station to get some power converters" to "yes that was me blowing up the death star" was more realistic in mathematical terms but people still expect certain internal consistency and narrative logic.
All we needed in the original Star Wars was a short scene on board the Millenium Falcon where Obi Wan introduces Luke to the Force. Where is that scene in the Force Awakens? Imagine if Obi Wan and Luke drove into Mos Eisly and it's Luke that says "these aren't the droids you're looking for" while Obi Wan gazes at him with a bewildered expression. Would that make any fucking sense?

No one (Well I'm sure there is always someone out there...) had the slightest problem with Trinity from Matrix being a badass from the very first scene of the movie. No one said "durrr how come she beat up cop but Neo can't beat up cop and can't jump over building durrr Mary Sue feminizm". The movie establishes that the run in with the cops wasn't the first tango for her and that she's experienced while Neo is a complete fish out of water neopyhte. Therefore it makes sense that Trinity is a battle hardened combat expert and Neo doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. Woman or man don't enter into it.
The scene where Rey turns the force on Kylo during interrogation would be like Neo sewing Agent Smith's mouth shut during the interrogation scene from the first Matrix movie.
Even in the Last Jedi it's not her that has an arc on the training island it's Luke. She has no change in perspective and no new understanding of the Force whereas Luke is the one that actually has to learn what he learned and lived 30 years ago. What the fuck?
She's a Mary Sue. It's that simple.

Now there's an interesting question. Are the TIE "Bombers" seen in Empire Strikes Back really the same as the Resistance "Bombers" seen in The Last Jedi?

On a side note, I forced myself to re-watch TFA recently and it establishes, with a throwaway line of dialogue (those things cover a multitude of sins) that you can bypass planetary shields through the use of hyperspace, though it's incredibly dangerous & risky. One wonders if there is some unspoken "Geneva Convention" in Star Wars banning the use of hyperspace missiles.

Kurgan wrote: ↑2018-01-10 11:02am Now there's an interesting question. Are the TIE "Bombers" seen in Empire Strikes Back really the same as the Resistance "Bombers" seen in The Last Jedi?

An F-22 can drop iron bombs, but I know it has other ways to deliver payloads to a target. We give the bombers the same benefit of the doubt because we only see them 'dropping' charges in a deep space asteroid field to flush a quarry out of hiding, and there's no indication that was their only purpose.

We see inside the Resistance bomber and it does seem dedicated to gravity-propelled charges, and used inside a planetary gravity well (the strength of which I underestimated previously in this thread)

On the TIE bomber there are also two visible weapon ports, one forward and a downwards chute. Presumably it can carry payloads suited to either one or to both, giving it a wide range of engagement options.

So, I finally saw the film, and having had some time to digest it, a little... well, I'll just copy my mini-review from
Facebook:

I found The Last Jedi a deeply frustrating film. There were some aspects of it I loved (some of the visuals, Luke's closing scene, some interesting concepts regarding the technology and the Force, the building of suspense over a single drawn-out battle, the revelation about the new admiral character), and some I loathed (the often forced and out-of-place humour, typical action movie clichés, the excessive and manipulative plot-twists, the overly-ambiguous themes, the dropped plot-lines, the missed opportunities for character development, and especially the creepy romantic/sexual undercurrents that I felt were present in some of Rey and Kylo Ren's interactions). And the Leia scenes were often hard to watch in light of Carrie Fisher's death, though I don't know how much of that was written/filmed before her death. Above all, the film felt... inconsistent, like a really great Star Wars movie and a really awful Star Wars movie intercut awkwardly together. Its a very frustrating film to me, and I still can't make up my mind on it. I do think that it would have been better to see it without spoilers, particularly as it relies so heavily on plot twists. I don't THINK it does irreparable harm to the franchise, but I get why people would hate this film. And I get why people would love it.

Speaking of STAR WARS RUINED BY FEMINISTERIZERS or whatever I'll add that a great part about the Raddus-Supremacy collision, aside from the visuals, is how Imperial fanboys get their duper-uber warship ruined by a hair-dyed tumblr member. A Spaceship Junking Woman if you will.

Kojiro wrote: ↑2018-01-08 08:58pm That's if we ignore the Malevolence *punching through a moon*.

huuuh?

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2018-01-08 08:21pm I'm not certain they weren't on combat alert. They did just strike at the New Republic so a military response isn't absurd. Plus they're draining a sun- power should absolutely not be in an issue.

Who knows, just because its weapons systems can funnel sun-energy (and it looks like a lot of that tech was used to literally channel and propel the sun-matter), doesn't necessarily mean its defense systems can totally harness that stuff. Just because the Hoover Dam can harness water doesn't mean if there's a mega flood that maximizes its turbines, it's air conditioners or toilets or flatscreen TVs will get a magic boost of performance.

For all we know, Starkiller's tech could be new so it might have had a lot of unmentioned kinks to work out.

As to the accuracy... the new Battlefront 2 game (which is canon) has a ship jump in with enough precision to literally catch a person blown out an airlock in their own shuttle bay. In this film, the Falcon jumps in and drops off an escape pod extremely close (and probably only so far away to avoid capture). Amazing precision is possible- with 30+ year old tech. When you're talking about targets that are kilometers long, that kind of accuracy is more than sufficient.

Maybe the Falcon jumped and deposited the escape pod while being vectored in by the Supremacy, or Rey's Force abilities or Chewbacca being a fuck awesome pilot, those aren't unreasonable extraneous factors since Kylo knew Rey was coming and the Supremacy's defenses didn't blow up her pod and she was escorted into the flight deck.

That just forces the shields to be permanently on 'high' setting. Even if accuracy was an issue, just throw a dozen at the target and saturate it. Hell, maybe even knock the shield down. With Starkiller, send a few X-Wings with droids in them only. Just have them hyperspace down that fuck off huge barrel. Sure they're small comparatively, but it's a fuck off huge target and I'm guessing unleashing the power of a sun requires some decent engineering. Engineering that a 10 ton fighter hitting could throw out of balance- even before you consider lightspeed into the mix (however the fuck that works with physics). Maybe you don't destroy Starkiller- that probably does require something larger- but you can sure as hell stop it firing. One does not unleash the power of a star through damaged equipment if one has... you know what? They might still try firing it with catastrophic results. It is the FO after all.

Well, given that even when they brought down the shields, their preferred attack vector for the X-Wing was that weirdo power conduit bunker thing to provide fans with obligatory ANH references, there must've been some reason that THAT was their target and not the ginormous hyper-technobabbulating sun-sucking gun barrels you suggested. Eh meh.

The problem is going to be with things like Vulture Droid MK2, which does exactly what a Vulture Droid does until it finds itself in the right position to hyperdrive into something. Capital ships just don't move that fast relative to fighters, which can already fly through their shields. The Trade Federation would gladly trade 100 droid fighters for a Venator or other ISD sized target and they probably only need a handful to hit. Not that such a droid fighter exists, but that's the issue. If this were possible, it absolutely would have been made.

Hmm... maybe the Supremacy was just soft for its size. Under-shielded for its size? Maybe other craft have better shield-to-size ratios like ISDs that might swat off droid-fighter kamikazes. Maybe jamming messes this up, just like how jamming leads to in-visual-range ship exchanges as we rationalize it. Bleh.

Sidewinder wrote: ↑2018-01-08 09:50pm I've yet to see the movie, but most reviews I see are negative. One guy is even petitioning to have The Last Jedi removed from the canon.

For fuck's sake. I think it was great and a lot of people think it's great, a lot of people who I concur with are basing it on cinematic and thematic and narrative-ic merits, whereas I noticed the tend of nerd hangups being related to others' sourness towards it - a lot of the dislike stems from that, focusing on that, rather than the movies' actual cinematic flaws (I can get dislike based on that, sure OK).

And jeez, that petition is just some eye rolling triviality from some rando with no life. My god, that person could spend their time more wisely, like making up nonsense lightsaber martial arts with ridiculous style-names like Form XX32 Vapaaretaratussutaad used by Darth Haytraeg that combined not only saber movements but also attacks using enormous shoulderpads and armoring that sports enormous spikes and skulls on top of skulled spikes and spikeskulls, as well as distractions and blinding sweeps of fluttering banners mounted atop said skullspikes, a technique that he imagined when he huffed holocrons made out of the crystalized/coagulated blood of orphans he squeezed into juice in some trash compactor. Or whatever.

Oh, I will have to say that I do enjoy how this film showed how skilled Kylo Ren was... while still revealing him as ultimately utterly pathetic.

Edit: And while the road to get there was long and sometimes torturous, which undermined the scene somewhat on first viewing- as a Luke fan, Luke's final stand was pretty much all I could have hoped for.

I do think that while Rey's characterization is arguably not harmed much (in a way, even strengthened) by having her be a "nobody", who is special because she is Rey, rather than because she's a Skywalker/Kenobi/Solo/Palpatine/whatever, I also think that having Rey not be Luke's daughter was to the detriment of Luke's character, and the thematic cohesiveness of the franchise.

For the former, having Rey be Luke's daughter would have given more depth to their interactions (for both of them, really), and would have fit with the progression of the Jedi Order under Luke from one that shunned love and attachment to one that embraced it. I think it would have also given Luke's death a bit more weight for Rey, potentially.

For the latter, it would have fit with the aforementioned progression of the Jedi over the course of the first two trilogies, and nicely echoed the theme of a child redeeming their father from the OT (especially since this film seems to have closed the door pretty firmly on a Kylo Ren redemption).

Rey and those kids were all having spontaneous visions relating to Luke Skywalker, so in the sense that by being the Last Jedi, and then ensuring that he won't be the Last Jedi, Luke really WAS all of their father. And all of them his children. In the non-genetic, non-muhduhchlowrian, and more luminous beings are we fashion.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 04:30pmWho knows, just because its weapons systems can funnel sun-energy (and it looks like a lot of that tech was used to literally channel and propel the sun-matter), doesn't necessarily mean its defense systems can totally harness that stuff. Just because the Hoover Dam can harness water doesn't mean if there's a mega flood that maximizes its turbines, it's air conditioners or toilets or flatscreen TVs will get a magic boost of performance.

For all we know, Starkiller's tech could be new so it might have had a lot of unmentioned kinks to work out.

One of my thoughts on Starkiller's shield is that it needs so much power just to charge up that it can't run its shield at full strength during the procedure or while charged. It sucks down an entire star for ammunition, but you need to spend energy to keep something like that contained actively, and I'm pretty damn sure there are no passive ways to keep an entire star inside a planetary volume barring collapsing it into a neutron star. IIRC from the film it sucked down a Sol-like main sequence star, which do not naturally achieve the mass or makeup to collapse into a neutron star.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2018-01-10 05:04pm Rey and those kids were all having spontaneous visions relating to Luke Skywalker, so in the sense that by being the Last Jedi, and then ensuring that he won't be the Last Jedi, Luke really WAS all of their father. And all of them his children. In the non-genetic, non-muhduhchlowrian, and more luminous beings are we fashion.

Huh. I didn't take the closing scene as the children having visions of Luke, so much as of just the story of Luke's last stand spreading rapidly.

But yeah, that's one way to look at it, I suppose.

Though, if I were Abrams, I'd be half-inclined to retcon Rey being Luke's daughter, and Kylo's story as just him playing mind games with Rey. But that would probably feel contrived at this point, and it would force the issue of why Luke never acknowledge it to Rey (unless he didn't know either).

Also in missed opportunities:

Phasma is dead but you kept Hux? Really?

Oh, well, I guess Kylo needs a punching bag.