Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-16 04:25pm

The whole tracker thing is painful. Leia is actually wearing a tracking device and hasn't heard from Rey for some time- a reasonable assumption would be that Rey was captured and they got the tracker. Certainly it's more believable than a stunning, revolutionary piece of never before seen tech being created.

Maybe it's my RPG background, but I actually thought Rose' first action should have been to deeply distrust Finn. For a start, he was with the First Order like, two days ago. Now he's trying to sneak off? Who does he think is going to pick up that escape pod? Why would a defector want to go back to the FO? And now he's showing you a tracker!? After you've just been inexplicably tracked? Jebus, how do you trust this guy?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-16 11:26pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-16 04:25pm
The whole tracker thing is painful. Leia is actually wearing a tracking device and hasn't heard from Rey for some time- a reasonable assumption would be that Rey was captured and they got the tracker. Certainly it's more believable than a stunning, revolutionary piece of never before seen tech being created.
That's not really a reasonable assumption. Rey has been gone for a few days, tops, and went to the one location the First Order 100% definitely does not know the position of. There'd be no reason to assume she's been captured.
Maybe it's my RPG background, but I actually thought Rose' first action should have been to deeply distrust Finn. For a start, he was with the First Order like, two days ago. Now he's trying to sneak off? Who does he think is going to pick up that escape pod? Why would a defector want to go back to the FO? And now he's showing you a tracker!? After you've just been inexplicably tracked? Jebus, how do you trust this guy?
This only makes sense if you ignore everything he's done for the Resistance, of which she's obviously aware. You'd have to be deliberately choosing to ignore that he was instrumental in destroying Starkiller Base (which is just automatic disqualification for being a spy) to be that paranoid.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-17 03:41am

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-16 11:26pm
That's not really a reasonable assumption. Rey has been gone for a few days, tops, and went to the one location the First Order 100% definitely does not know the position of. There'd be no reason to assume she's been captured.
Bullshit. Rey has to go make a trip- in a ship Han said needed to be ditched because the FO could potentially spot it (hence his whole trip to Maz' instead of just taking them to the Rebel base). Plus the FO has the first part of the map. Who's to say they don't have some Interdictor like ship sitting on the part they do know now the last piece has escaped their hands? So the movie has given us one way for the Falcon to be located and lore gives us at least one other. Before this chase is over Rey will actually turn herself in, which is as good as being captured. There's plenty of ways Rey can (and fucking DOES) end up in FO hands. Fuck, maybe they just detected the tracker signal when they rocked up in some routine area scans?

In fact, not a lot changes if the FO show up at hour 12 of their trip to Crait instead of 0.
This only makes sense if you ignore everything he's done for the Resistance, of which she's obviously aware. You'd have to be deliberately choosing to ignore that he was instrumental in destroying Starkiller Base (which is just automatic disqualification for being a spy) to be that paranoid.
Or just think critically about it. He appears to be running back to the First Order (ain't nobody else gonna pick up his escape pod) and admits to having a tracker on him and oh yeah, they just got tracked. The best Rose has are a few stories about him- certainly nothing she has first hand knowledge of- while here he is in front of her, lying, fleeing to the FO and with a perfectly good explanation for how they were tracked. Rose isn't so stupid she swallows it wholesale- she does taser him- but then she goes through a bizarre about face once she learns about the tracker. The tracker makes him infinitely more suspicious given the circumstances, not less, and she should be weighing up dramatic stories she's heard vs the evidence right in front of her.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-05-17 04:45am

In fact, not a lot changes if the FO show up at hour 12 of their trip to Crait instead of 0.
This is part of the reason why we know using Crait was never a part of Leia's plan. We have seen many examples of ships traveling to planets and I can't think of one where the intentionally decide to exit 18 hours away from that planet when there is no tactical reason to do so.

Also note that in order to get to Crait from where the Raddus and her escorts exited hyperspace, two of the ship ran out of fuel and the Raddus was on fumes. Does that should like something someone would chose intentionally? Sure, you could say that they were being unexpectedly chased and thus were maybe burning at a less efficient higher engine throttle setting than they would have otherwise. But if they were not planning on burning like that, and it was an18 hours transit as seen while doing so, then we are talking about a significantly longer transit from the hyperspace exit point to Crait. Probably days, maybe weeks (whatever the difference is between sublight cruising-and-not-run-out-of-fuel and sublight escape-from-pursues-barely speeds are). Remember the entire nuWars arc is only two days currently, given all that happened in that time span I highly doubt Leia was planning on taking a week off to leisurely coast to Crait while the FO rampages through the rest of the galaxy in whatever ridiculously short time span the opening crawl indicated.

And no, Leia was not planning to use Crait as a comms relay point. Lets set aside the fact that is ridiculous to think that the Raddus can't communicate just fine by itself given all the examples of communicating across the galaxy from simple starfighters in canon media, and that Leia had no reason to think there would be any issues on the other side of the hyperspace jump include jamming because the FO wasn't supposed to be there.

We laid Holdo's claim about being unable to call for help to bed earlier in thread. I have no doubt that that's what Johnson intended but we have the in movie, equally canon to Holdo's statement, example of Poe doing exactly what Holdo said couldn't happen. There is ZERO reason to hold Holdo's mere words over the observed reality of Poe's call when they both enjoy the same canon status. Han said you can't destroy a planet, yet we observe that happening in ANH. The Jedi Librarian says there can't be an unmapped system, yet we observe Obi Wan go to said non-existent system. Vader says they he can't be turned, but he is. Ackbar says they won't last long against those SDs, yet they not only last they clean the floor with them. Observation beats exposition every time. We also know the FO was not jamming communications because besides Poe's conversation with Maz, Poe has no issues at all just casually talking with Finn and Rose.

So why was a random point of vacuum in the Crait system selected to retreat to, that just happens to have an old Rebel base? There is no good reason provided in the movie, but it stinks to high heavens of writers making shit up as the go along instead of have a vision of a coherent story. They had an idea for this stupid chase sequence and just shoe horned whatever random crap they needed to in service to it. This is usually the source of plot breaking coincidences out of universe. In a word, laziness.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-05-17 05:00am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-05-17 04:45am

Also note that in order to get to Crait from where the Raddus and her escorts exited hyperspace, two of the ship ran out of fuel and the Raddus was on fumes. Does that should like something someone would chose intentionally? Sure, you could say that they were being unexpectedly chased and thus were maybe burning at a less efficient higher engine throttle setting than they would have otherwise. But if they were not planning on burning like that, and it was an18 hours transit as seen while doing so, then we are talking about a significantly longer transit from the hyperspace exit point to Crait. Probably days, maybe weeks (whatever the difference is between sublight cruising-and-not-run-out-of-fuel and sublight escape-from-pursues-barely speeds are). Remember the entire nuWars arc is only two days currently, given all that happened in that time span I highly doubt Leia was planning on taking a week off to leisurely coast to Crait while the FO rampages through the rest of the galaxy in whatever ridiculously short time span the opening crawl indicated.
As an addendum to the above musing:

Were they going to jump into Crait's system first, and them micro jump to the planet later? Maybe, but why? And I am not sure how much of a hyperspace jump fuel usage is used up in the jump to versus travel in hyperspace, but its very possible they might have run out of fuel doing that double jump to Crait and being stranded there just like they said was the case if they jumped away from the FO fleet (just to get tracked and pounced on at the other end, this time unable to run at sublight). Its not like there was anything helpful sitting at the abandoned base. Maybe they would call in a tanker, but again why put yourself in that position? This is the problem with shitty writing, nothing makes sense.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 08:04am

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-17 03:41am
Bullshit. Rey has to go make a trip- in a ship Han said needed to be ditched because the FO could potentially spot it (hence his whole trip to Maz' instead of just taking them to the Rebel base). Plus the FO has the first part of the map. Who's to say they don't have some Interdictor like ship sitting on the part they do know now the last piece has escaped their hands? So the movie has given us one way for the Falcon to be located and lore gives us at least one other. Before this chase is over Rey will actually turn herself in, which is as good as being captured. There's plenty of ways Rey can (and fucking DOES) end up in FO hands. Fuck, maybe they just detected the tracker signal when they rocked up in some routine area scans?

In fact, not a lot changes if the FO show up at hour 12 of their trip to Crait instead of 0.
We're inventing interdictors in the movie now? Jesus Christ. Like anyone on Earth (let alone Leia) is sitting there during the movie coming up with this convoluted bullshit series of non-movie lore-based* what-ifs about the Falcon being captured because the First Order hypothetically placing an Interdictor along its hyperspace route which they somehow know the Falcon would be travelling on, purely because Han picked up the Falcon somehow in the previous film?

This isn't picking out obvious plot holes, it's coming up with nitpicky shit after the fact to complain about.

As for "detected the tracker signal", they say in the movie it's a "cloaked binary beacon". We can safely assume it means what it says on the tin.

*Interdictors are clearly not a thing in this period (the Disney canon lore says they were taken out of production pre-OT for reasons I can't recall), just like they weren't in the OT or the PT. If they were, the hyperspace tracker would be totally unnecessary.
Or just think critically about it. He appears to be running back to the First Order (ain't nobody else gonna pick up his escape pod) and admits to having a tracker on him and oh yeah, they just got tracked. The best Rose has are a few stories about him- certainly nothing she has first hand knowledge of- while here he is in front of her, lying, fleeing to the FO and with a perfectly good explanation for how they were tracked. Rose isn't so stupid she swallows it wholesale- she does taser him- but then she goes through a bizarre about face once she learns about the tracker. The tracker makes him infinitely more suspicious given the circumstances, not less, and she should be weighing up dramatic stories she's heard vs the evidence right in front of her.
Jesus Christ, really? So your entire basis for contesting this is making totally unfounded bullshit assumptions about what she actually knows about him, assumptions which have no basis whatsoever in the film*. The Resistance is a force of several hundred people, and you think she's going to be suspicious about what she's heard about him? That his heroism is some unfounded rumor? What the hell for? Because the beacon he's wearing? That might make sense if she was a totally unreasonable conspiracy theorist willing to entertain the notion of the Literal Dumbest Traitor In the Galaxy - except your argument would still fail because Rose has no idea the First Order can track them through hyperspace - only Finn tells her that. After she stuns him. Which is obviously not something a traitor wearing a trackable beacon would ever volunteer. While brandishing a beacon in her face.

The reasonable person would assume that Rose knows a cloaked binary beacon when she sees it and thinks no more about it because she knows that this isn't a relevant factor.

*I have to harp on this because it's just basic story-telling. Rose's initial reaction to Finn tells us literally everything we need to know about how well Finn's actions are known. She's in awe of him and can't even talk straight. It's totally reasonable to assume that everyone knows that Finn was instrumental in setting off for the mission on SKB - he was in the briefing, Poe would've told everyone how Finn completed his mission for him, Rey would've told of his heroism, and his injuries were self-evident. It is totally unreasonable to assume that Rose doesn't really have any idea who Finn is supposed to be.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-05-17 08:13am

The obvious plot whole is not that they need to capture the MC, but that they dame things are communicating with each other. They just need to detect the signal. In fact capturing the MC might be counter productive, as Rey may very well think to destroy the device on her end, though presumably Leia's will still be broadcasting, and for the purposes of this exchange that's the one that matters because you can't track where a signal is being broadcast only where it is coming from. The way I understood it the point was for Rey to be able to find her way back, not for Leia to be able to find Rey (as I understood it, I could be wrong), so Rey's may be receive only.

Can we note how stupid it is to believe these two hand held doohickeys can communicate across the galaxy, but we are supposed to believe the the Raddus can't get a message off without Crait?
This isn't picking out obvious plot holes, it's coming up with nitpicky shit after the fact to complain about.
Wow, I can think of a few SW situations were that would be suuuuuuper useful. Its probably totally believable that this technology would only ever be introduced to us as a glorified cell phone finder app. Great writing there.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 08:19am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-05-17 08:13am
The obvious plot whole is not that they need to capture the MC, but that they dame things are communicating with each other. They just need to detect the signal. In fact capturing the MC might be counter productive, as Rey may very well think to destroy the device on her end, though presumably Leia's will still be broadcasting, and for the purposes of this exchange that's the one that matters because you can't track where a signal is being broadcast only where it is coming from. The way I understood it the point was for Rey to be able to find her way back, not for Leia to be able to find Rey (as I understood it, I could be wrong), so Rey's may be receive only.

Can we note how stupid it is to believe these two hand held doohickeys can communicate across the galaxy, but we are supposed to believe the the Raddus can't get a message off without Crait?
A simple homing beacon is not the same as sending a wide-beam distress call, I guess?
Wow, I can think of a few SW situations were that would be suuuuuuper useful. Its probably totally believable that this technology would only ever be introduced to us as a glorified cell phone finder app. Great writing there.
Rembmer that time that Obi-Wan threw a moderate-stone-sized tracking device at Slave I and tracked it from Kamino to Geonosis? Or the homing beacon the Empire secured to the Falcon back in ANH? How is a wrist-held beacon any different? It's the exact same principle.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-17 09:54am

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-17 08:04am
We're inventing interdictors in the movie now?
No, we're allowing for Leia to consider the possibility that, along with all the other designs they duplicated, the FO also duplicated their own version of the Interdictor. They have part of the map, they know part of the route and they have a lot of copied Imperial tech. The idea they might have and use an Interdictor analogue is hardly crazy.
This isn't picking out obvious plot holes, it's coming up with nitpicky shit after the fact to complain about.
You're the one claiming it's unreasonable to assume Rey has fallen into the First Orders clutches (even though she puts herself in that very situation), I'm just giving possible ways it could happen. I mean shit, it's the Falcon and it's been sitting in a scrap yard badly maintained for years. It's not even implausible it just broke down (it did wear a few hits in TFA before Rey got the shields up and it didn't have the greatest landing at Starkiller- something could easily be damaged. Repairs haven't exactly been easily available) and Rey and Chewie had to limp somewhere for repairs where they get spotted, just like at Maz's place.
As for "detected the tracker signal", they say in the movie it's a "cloaked binary beacon". We can safely assume it means what it says on the tin.

Like cloaked shuttles right? Or perhaps the Resistance doesn't know the full sensor capabilities of the FO? I mean, Finn should possibly know the FO sensors can do 'de-cloaking' sweeps... :lol:
*Interdictors are clearly not a thing in this period, just like they weren't in the OT or the PT. If they were, the hyperspace tracker would be totally unnecessary.
Who gives a shit? They're canonical, established tech. If one shows up in IX and someone complained it was a handy plot device you'd be the first person pointing out their history and canon status.

Having rewatched it just now, it does seem that Rose does believe lightspeed will get them to safety and is unaware of the FO ability to hyperspace track. Which to my mind would mean she probably believes there's a traitor, beacon or both as the explanation for how they were just tracked (and might explain why Holdo hasn't told everyone the plan). The real problem here is that Finn hasn't just turned the beacon off and he's running into what must be FO custody (which is exactly where it'd lead Rey if she followed it). It makes his story so shady that he's left it on all this time and they just happen to have been tracked. If you don't think that looks dodgy... well ok then. *shrug*

I much prefer the more parsimonious explanation- traitor, beacon or both- than the requirement of inventing unprecedented new tech.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-05-17 10:14am

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-17 08:19am
A simple homing beacon is not the same as sending a wide-beam distress call, I guess?
No its actually not. homing beacons are basically just broadcasting ones and zeros to give you a code to recognize. Sure, you could just transmit a generic signal, but then how many millions of homing beacons are active in the galaxy at any one time? Its got to be a recognizable, identifiable signal.

Which means it can be used just like any telegraph Morris code machine Only with computers working at the speed of SW tech. In the end all modern communications signals work this way at heart. How complicated of a message is "COME HELP ME! CORRDINATES XXXXXXXXX, CODE WORD HONEY BADGER!!!" to key out on a CB radio? Its like what, a couple hundred bits?
Rembmer that time that Obi-Wan threw a moderate-stone-sized tracking device at Slave I and tracked it from Kamino to Geonosis? Or the homing beacon the Empire secured to the Falcon back in ANH? How is a wrist-held beacon any different? It's the exact same principle.
1.) Using the prequels as a defense is always an own goal.
2.) It critisism is not that the little hand held intergalactic pagers exist (well that is a critisism but not what we are critisising right here), its that they exist and work but we are expected that the entire flagship comms sweet of the Raddus can't do the same damn thing at the same damn place.
3.) So if you are a particularly undemanding viewer, you accept this, and then we see Poe do exactly what we were just told cant happen.

On a separate note, in the Falcon's case (both times) we have no idea how substantial the tracking device was. Each time the MC was in the Empires pocession for a good stretch of time. But again we know starfighter sized vessels can communicate at galactic distances routinely, the question is why the hell can't the Raddus if taht's the case. Or any of its surviving small craft it has that presumable can do that too? You can't have it both ways.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 10:38am

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-17 09:54am
No, we're allowing for Leia to consider the possibility that, along with all the other designs they duplicated, the FO also duplicated their own version of the Interdictor. They have part of the map, they know part of the route and they have a lot of copied Imperial tech. The idea they might have and use an Interdictor analogue is hardly crazy.
If the First Order had interdictors, they'd be at D'Qar.
You're the one claiming it's unreasonable to assume Rey has fallen into the First Orders clutches (even though she puts herself in that very situation), I'm just giving possible ways it could happen. I mean shit, it's the Falcon and it's been sitting in a scrap yard badly maintained for years. It's not even implausible it just broke down (it did wear a few hits in TFA before Rey got the shields up and it didn't have the greatest landing at Starkiller- something could easily be damaged. Repairs haven't exactly been easily available) and Rey and Chewie had to limp somewhere for repairs where they get spotted, just like at Maz's place.
Of course it's unreasonable - you've had to construct a Rube Goldberg series of contrivances to make it happen. If Rey were to put herself in that situation, she can be safely assumed to be under orders to ensure the beacon doesn't fall into FO hands. Which would be as easy as stepping on the thing. And that's assuming it just tells you where the other person is without any action (say, a code) for that information to actually be provided to the user.
Like cloaked shuttles right? Or perhaps the Resistance doesn't know the full sensor capabilities of the FO? I mean, Finn should possibly know the FO sensors can do 'de-cloaking' sweeps... :lol:
So the script expressly tells you they're wrong and you immediately make up reasons why the script is dumb for contradicting the thing you were wrong about? Ok sure: so you think the more reasonable explanation than hyperspace tracking is that the First Order might have technology to decode binary tracker beacon signals? Why would anyone assume someone had bothered developing such a radically obscure technology? Because that's a thing that would be really tactically useful in so many situations? Did they read the script for this film ahead of time?

After all - they picked up cloaked shuttles when they were told to expressly look for them - therefore of course they can somehow latch onto the signal of a cloaked beacon. Even though those two things are nothing at all alike.

More generally - what is all this nitpicking even for? Do you want to have a character sit around for five or ten minutes of screentime and painstakingly eliminate possibilities by which the First Order could've followed them other than a hyperspace tracker to satisfy people who will refuse to take the movie at its word unless it holds their hand and walks them through their entire field of tactical and technological knowledge and decision making process in real time? That will be really exciting and add so much to the story. Totally not a complete waste of time.
Who gives a shit? They're canonical, established tech. If one shows up in IX and someone complained it was a handy plot device you'd be the first person pointing out their history and canon status.
So what? If they appeared in IX that wouldn't change anything about the tactical situation in the previous films, where they're obviously not a factor.
Having rewatched it just now, it does seem that Rose does believe lightspeed will get them to safety and is unaware of the FO ability to hyperspace track. Which to my mind would mean she probably believes there's a traitor, beacon or both as the explanation for how they were just tracked (and might explain why Holdo hasn't told everyone the plan). The real problem here is that Finn hasn't just turned the beacon off and he's running into what must be FO custody (which is exactly where it'd lead Rey if she followed it). It makes his story so shady that he's left it on all this time and they just happen to have been tracked. If you don't think that looks dodgy... well ok then. *shrug*

I much prefer the more parsimonious explanation- traitor, beacon or both- than the requirement of inventing unprecedented new tech.
The 'traitor' idea only makes sense if you ignore TFA entirely. The Resistance is compromised by the First Order, yet this traitor didn't think to ever tell the First Order where D'Qar was? What was this traitor doing all this time? He thought the time to spring into action was after Starkiller Base was destroyed?

The 'beacon' idea is just as bad. It assumes Rose has no idea what a cloaked binary beacon does, or worse, assumes she does but requires her to go through a convoluted decision making process where she contrives incredibly-useless-except-for-this-movie First Order beacon hacking technology.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-05-17 11:00am

So the script expressly tells you they're wrong and you immediately make up reasons why the script is dumb for contradicting the thing you were wrong about? Ok sure: so you think the more reasonable explanation than hyperspace tracking is that the First Order might have technology to decode binary tracker beacon signals? Why would anyone assume someone had bothered developing such a radically obscure technology? Because that's a thing that would be really tactically useful in so many situations? Did they read the script for this film ahead of time?
You are thinking this backwards, which is understandable because there is so much heinous abuse of technobable in this movie that some bad tech appears good because it is up against bad tech.

I hope I don't have to explain to you how valuable tactically a completely undetectable, non-decodable, handheld galactic wide communication system is. This is like the end all be all of military C4I systems. So your question about "why would someone develop the ability to decode a binary tracking beacon that is so obscure?" is jumping the gun. The real question is (just like the transport cloaks) is why the fuck is this ridiculously useful and militarily disruptive uber technology obscure?! Its not like anyone treated their existence (in either case, communicators or transport cloaks) as some really out there amazing capability. In both cases everyone is just like "eh" in the presence of these setting breaking technologies.

So yeah, it makes perfect sense for the FO to figure out how to defeat this tech. Ironically, the idea that they already did so is the only real explanation why the tech is not more prolific. In the case of the sensor cloaks apparently all the FO had to do is flip a switch to defeat it. Its like when the sensor operator was flipping the circuit board to turn the sensor systems on that morning he forgot one knob and somehow the Rebels knew it.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 11:33am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-05-17 10:14am
No its actually not. homing beacons are basically just broadcasting ones and zeros to give you a code to recognize. Sure, you could just transmit a generic signal, but then how many millions of homing beacons are active in the galaxy at any one time? Its got to be a recognizable, identifiable signal.

Which means it can be used just like any telegraph Morris code machine Only with computers working at the speed of SW tech. In the end all modern communications signals work this way at heart. How complicated of a message is "COME HELP ME! CORRDINATES XXXXXXXXX, CODE WORD HONEY BADGER!!!" to key out on a CB radio? Its like what, a couple hundred bits?
Refer below. Nothing in the film prevents the plot from working as presented.
1.) Using the prequels as a defense is always an own goal.
That they're poor movies has absolutely nothing to do with technological nitpicking.
2.) It critisism is not that the little hand held intergalactic pagers exist (well that is a critisism but not what we are critisising right here), its that they exist and work but we are expected that the entire flagship comms sweet of the Raddus can't do the same damn thing at the same damn place.

3.) So if you are a particularly undemanding viewer, you accept this, and then we see Poe do exactly what we were just told cant happen.
No we don't - we see Poe communicating with Maz Kanata, this is clearly not the same thing as sending a signal to the Resistance's allies in the Outer Rim, which is what they're stated as needing Crait for. Whether that has to do with the nature of the transmission, distance, or medium through which its travelling through is unknown. Its also irrelevant - nothing in the film prevents the plot from working as presented.
On a separate note, in the Falcon's case (both times) we have no idea how substantial the tracking device was. Each time the MC was in the Empires pocession for a good stretch of time. But again we know starfighter sized vessels can communicate at galactic distances routinely, the question is why the hell can't the Raddus if taht's the case. Or any of its surviving small craft it has that presumable can do that too? You can't have it both ways.
The Raddus can obviously communciate at distance, hence the communication with Maz (wherever she was). But sending a transmission to their Outer Rim allies is deemed too far / too much.
Patroklos wrote:
2018-05-17 11:00am
You are thinking this backwards, which is understandable because there is so much heinous abuse of technobable in this movie that some bad tech appears good because it is up against bad tech.

I hope I don't have to explain to you how valuable tactically a completely undetectable, non-decodable, handheld galactic wide communication system is.
That's not what the beacons are, as far as the setting is concerned. If they were a substitute for a proper communications sytem to undertake military command and control, they would do so. How they should work and what they should do is plainly different from what is.

To be honest, if military tactics and technology is your thing, maybe Star Wars isn't for you. The notion that the setting was some militarily and technologically logical thing where the implications of every piece of technology were interrogated to the nth degree until the prequels and sequels) apparently came along and ruined it ("setting breaking") is obviously nonsense unless you impart mass stupidity upon every single person in the setting. It's an incredibly tedious mode of judging a film.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-05-17 11:38am

Your argument seems to be 'the way communications are presented in the film is not stupid because that's the way it's presented in the film', it's circular. The tech can do this and not this because... why? We just have to take it as read.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 11:43am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-05-17 11:38am
Your argument seems to be 'the way communications are presented in the film is not stupid because that's the way it's presented in the film', it's circular. The tech can do this and not this because... why? We just have to take it as read.
There's two issues here:

1). The way communications is presented in the film is stupid because [insert a bunch of stuff that should be true but is clearly not the case]; and
2). The communications in the film make tracking the cloaked binary beacon a more logical source for the Resistance's troubles than a hyperspace tracker.

2) is only the case if you insert [bunch of stuff that should be true but is clearly not the case] referred to in 1). I'm not particularly interested in what communications should or shouldn't be possible in the film as such. It's technological nitpicking that has no bearing on the plot of the film as presented.

Conceptually, its no different from arguing that Star Wars should be lobbing rail gun shells at each other from thousands of kilometres away because they'd obviously be so much more effective than turbolasers based on literally all available canonical evidence. True, and whoopdeeshit?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-05-17 11:51am

I wouldn't call it technological nitpicking though, I'd call it calling out bad writing. When you include to plot points 'I have a tracker here so X character can find me' and 'Imperials tracking us through hyperspace in a way that should be impossible' close together, It's not unreasonable for an audience to think that may be a clue and there's a connection.

Likewise when you include both 'we can't talk to people far away' and 'talking this far away person' with not even a handwave people are going to be puzzled by the contradiction. Yeah this is [insert a bunch of stuff that should be true but is clearly not the case] but avoiding that kind of thing is what good writing is about.

It's not really technological minutia because it's a big in your face contradiction.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by tezunegari » 2018-05-17 12:25pm

I wonder who knew about Leias CBB?
There were only two scenes they were mentioned.
When Leia told Finn and showed it to him.
And when Finn told Rose about the CBB.

It would kind of be a delicious irony if the film established that Holdo thought there was a tracker aboard, and maybe even suspected Finn to be a traitor after all... just to find out that it was Leias beacon that allowed the Supremacy to track them.
It wouldn't even change too much of the canon-film...
It keeps the whole "There's a new tracking technology" but instead of tracking ships in hyperspace, it identifies and tracks cloaked binary beacons that are used by the Resistance (as a Republic Intelligence technology "loaned" to them and "liberated" by patriotic First Order sympathisers in the Republic).

It would still be a "Fuck, they can track us now" moment and force them to decide between rescuing the fleet of cutting of Rey (who as the last Jedi and link to Luke is a wee bit important).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-17 03:07pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-17 10:38am
If the First Order had interdictors, they'd be at D'Qar.
Based on what? Their stunning military tactical acumen of shooting the base first? Of not jumping fighters in with them? Of having unshielded point defense? Of having several Resurgents just sit back and watch a seven stories tall bomber cruise up? Of entertaining a prank call? Of launching a maybe 5% of their available fighters? Yeah, all tools used to maximum advantage. And that's before you consider how long it took them to get there.
Of course it's unreasonable - you've had to construct a Rube Goldberg series of contrivances to make it happen.
Having to take the Falcon somewhere instead of going directly to a location and being spotted, and thus bringing the First Order down on them is too far fetched for you eh? You realise that's exactly how Rey got captured in TFA?

Or using a blockade ship to... blockade? That's what you call a Rube Goldberg set up?

Again, the FO has part of the map, they know part of the route. If they can display the intelligence of this captain they could intercept anyone sent to find Skywalker. It's really not that complex.
So the script expressly tells you they're wrong and you immediately make up reasons why the script is dumb for contradicting the thing you were wrong about
I don't even know what you're referring to here exactly. Please elaborate.
Ok sure: so you think the more reasonable explanation than hyperspace tracking is that the First Order might have technology to decode binary tracker beacon signals?
I never said decode- you don't need to decode a signal to triangulate it. All they have to do is detect it. Clearly it can be detected- that's the entire point of it- so it's only a matter of whether FO hardware is up to the task. This is of course hand waved as 'cloaked' but that makes fuck all sense.

Can you tell me how a cloaked beacon works? How it can put out a galaxy spanning signal a bracelet sized device can detect yet remain undetectable to top of the line military sensors?
More generally - what is all this nitpicking even for?
I was only relaying the thoughts and ideasI had when I first watched the film.
Do you want to have a character sit around for five or ten minutes of screentime and painstakingly eliminate possibilities by which the First Order could've followed them
Ideally I'd like information conveyed quickly and naturally to the audience, that's actually a thing you can do in a good film that's well constructed.
So what? If they appeared in IX that wouldn't change anything about the tactical situation in the previous films, where they're obviously not a factor.
So what indeed. This has zero relevance to the point made, which was about their canon status.
The 'traitor' idea only makes sense if you ignore TFA entirely....
Or if you don't assume Rose has the perfect knowledge of an audience member, but is instead a tech who spends most of her days behind pipes hearing stories and rumours.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-05-17 04:18pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-17 03:07pm
Can you tell me how a cloaked beacon works? How it can put out a galaxy spanning signal a bracelet sized device can detect yet remain undetectable to top of the line military sensors?
Most sci-fi series that want to accomplish that would use quantum entanglement, especially since it seems to operate as a point-to-point beacon. Not saying that's necessarily how they intended it here, since AFAIK no source in-universe or otherwise says exactly how the beacon works, but it works as a retroactive head-canon justification absent any other information.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-17 08:35pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-17 03:07pm
Based on what? Their stunning military tactical acumen of shooting the base first? Of not jumping fighters in with them? Of having unshielded point defense? Of having several Resurgents just sit back and watch a seven stories tall bomber cruise up? Of entertaining a prank call? Of launching a maybe 5% of their available fighters? Yeah, all tools used to maximum advantage. And that's before you consider how long it took them to get there.
So your basis for assuming they exist somewhere other than at D'Qar is substantially based on the existence of assets assets that were - notwithstanding how poorly they were used - clearly and unequivocally all present at D'Qar?
Having to take the Falcon somewhere instead of going directly to a location and being spotted, and thus bringing the First Order down on them is too far fetched for you eh? You realise that's exactly how Rey got captured in TFA?
So if we imagined that if for some unexplained reason what happened in TFA - which has no bearing whatsoever on her intentions at the end of TFA at all - happened all over again, that would mean it'd be reasonable to believe she was captured?

If they were at all concerned that the Falcon could not get them there, they could've just taken a Resistance transport from D'Qar.
Or using a blockade ship to... blockade? That's what you call a Rube Goldberg set up?
Why would any reasonable person infer the existence of one in the absence of any evidence?
Again, the FO has part of the map, they know part of the route. If they can display the intelligence of this captain they could intercept anyone sent to find Skywalker. It's really not that complex.
Prove that the part of the map that they have (from the old Imperial archives) provides them with sufficient information to anticipate the route of and then intercept and capture someone traveling to Ach'To from D'Qar.
I don't even know what you're referring to here exactly. Please elaborate.
You complain that the beacon could be detected, I point out we're told the beacon uses a cloaked signal, which is the end of that issue. But then you complain about that instead - see below where you complain that it "makes fuck all sense".
I never said decode- you don't need to decode a signal to triangulate it. All they have to do is detect it. Clearly it can be detected- that's the entire point of it- so it's only a matter of whether FO hardware is up to the task. This is of course hand waved as 'cloaked' but that makes fuck all sense.

Can you tell me how a cloaked beacon works? How it can put out a galaxy spanning signal a bracelet sized device can detect yet remain undetectable to top of the line military sensors?
Who cares? It works very well, and that's all that the plot requires. You can make up any completely unnecessary technobabble explanation for it you want in your head, it's totally irrelevant to anything of import in the film.
Ideally I'd like information conveyed quickly and naturally to the audience, that's actually a thing you can do in a good film that's well constructed.
No well constructed film would waste its time on this - it would accomplish nothing but to waste a bunch of time before arriving at where the movie needs the story to get to anyway.

When you're making up complaints like this in your head, you should really wonder if literally any scriptwriter in the universe would ever go through the following decision making process.

"Hmm, so why couldn't the First Order track the beacon Leia has? I'll just say its a cloaked binary beacon, that's fine to convey that it's only trackable by its pair. Ah, but what if someone doesn't believe it when the script says it's only trackable by its pair? I know - I'll have the characters spout exposition at each other about why its only trackable by its pair."

What a scriptwriter would actually do - if he even bothered to consider the possibility of the audience not believing something he's telling them at all - is refuse to waste his time pandering to someone who won't engage with the film except from a position of adversarial nitpicking.
So what indeed. This has zero relevance to the point made, which was about their canon status.
Their canon status is irrelevant- there's no reason to assume the existence of interdictors in the First Order fleet at this time.
Or if you don't assume Rose has the perfect knowledge of an audience member, but is instead a tech who spends most of her days behind pipes hearing stories and rumours.
You don't need 'perfect knowledge of the audience', you just need to not have terribly paranoid reasoning skills.
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-05-17 11:51am
I wouldn't call it technological nitpicking though, I'd call it calling out bad writing. When you include to plot points 'I have a tracker here so X character can find me' and 'Imperials tracking us through hyperspace in a way that should be impossible' close together, It's not unreasonable for an audience to think that may be a clue and there's a connection.
In the absence of any other evidence, yes. But if you're expressly told before any of this is a factor that its a "cloaked binary beacon" and the conclusion the character reaches after it happens is that they're being tracked through hyperspace, that should be the end of the issue.
Likewise when you include both 'we can't talk to people far away' and 'talking this far away person' with not even a handwave people are going to be puzzled by the contradiction. Yeah this is [insert a bunch of stuff that should be true but is clearly not the case] but avoiding that kind of thing is what good writing is about.

It's not really technological minutia because it's a big in your face contradiction.
I really don't see the contradiction. The line in the movie re: "talking to people far away" is "We need to find a new base. One with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies scattered in the Outer Rim."

At no point does anyone ever say that they can't communicate with anyone, anywhere, or that Maz Kanata is an ally they have in the Outer Rim.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-17 09:48pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-17 08:35pm
So your basis for assuming they exist somewhere other than at D'Qar is substantially based on the existence of assets assets that were - notwithstanding how poorly they were used - clearly and unequivocally all present at D'Qar?
Here's what I said: No, we're allowing for Leia to consider the possibility that, along with all the other designs they duplicated, the FO also duplicated their own version of the Interdictor.

All this started because you couldn't accept the suggestion that Rey or the beacon could possibly be compromised. I've presented you with a few ways that could have occurred, certainly ideas Leia could also have thought up, and I'm sure others could be dreamt up with time but ironically, all you want to do is nitpick any proffered narrative all the while bemoaning nitpicking. :lol:

Allow me to restate my position:

If I were Leia and I'd just been impossibly tracked, I'd wonder if the beacon broadcasting my location had something to do with it. I'd worry that Rey has been captured because I can imagine several scenarios by which that could happen and it would explain how I was tracked. Better?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-18 01:15am

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-17 09:48pm
Here's what I said: No, we're allowing for Leia to consider the possibility that, along with all the other designs they duplicated, the FO also duplicated their own version of the Interdictor.

All this started because you couldn't accept the suggestion that Rey or the beacon could possibly be compromised. I've presented you with a few ways that could have occurred, certainly ideas Leia could also have thought up, and I'm sure others could be dreamt up with time but ironically, all you want to do is nitpick any proffered narrative all the while bemoaning nitpicking. :lol:
Pointing out that a proferred narrative would require anyone thinking of it to make a pile of assumptions upon assumptions isn't nitpicking.

Worse, we're both forgetting that if Leia actually thought it was a possibility that Rey's beacon had been captured - the first step would be simply checking her beacon to see if Rey's signal has either a. shifted from Ach'To or b. never arrived at Ach'To. Nevermind how unlikely it would be that the FO, in following this signal, would immediately assume it must lead to the Resistance fleet and send 30 Resurgents and the Supremacy instead of checking first with scout ships.
Allow me to restate my position:

If I were Leia and I'd just been impossibly tracked, I'd wonder if the beacon broadcasting my location had something to do with it. I'd worry that Rey has been captured because I can imagine several scenarios by which that could happen and it would explain how I was tracked. Better?
Better, yes, but see above. It's still something Leia has the means to check.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by tezunegari » 2018-05-18 04:10pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-18 01:15am
Worse, we're both forgetting that if Leia actually thought it was a possibility that Rey's beacon had been captured - the first step would be simply checking her beacon to see if Rey's signal has either a. shifted from Ach'To or b. never arrived at Ach'To. Nevermind how unlikely it would be that the FO, in following this signal, would immediately assume it must lead to the Resistance fleet and send 30 Resurgents and the Supremacy instead of checking first with scout ships.
Why would Rey have a locator beacon? The Resistance knows exactly where she is going: to Luke Skywalker on Ach'To.
She would only need to brind the Locator for the beacon Leia has in her possession.
And she only needs the Locator device because the Resistance is evacuating D'Qar without knowing where they are going to establish their new base, so they couldn't tell Rey to go there instead. (Why they didn't just tell her to go to a neutral system and meet a Resistance sympathiser there to facilitate contact... I blame the monkey)



I think the pursuit story would have been better if it was about the tracking itself and the hyperdrives being overused and not the fuel running out.

BSG 2003s episode '33' demonstrates how to do this.
It would limit the time for evacuations from the escorts, allow for one of the escort Captains to die while talking to Holdo ("Evacuation complete. I'm heading..." [explosions] "Hyperdrive overloads! All transports launch! May the..." Holo disappears) and it would make the First Order look at least somewhat competent (no TIE fighters to harrass the Resistance because it would take too long to get them back)

It would also allow for scenes were Holdo orders more and more risky plans to evade the First Order... just for them to appear again 30 seconds later.
Nebulas, the Maw, atmospheric hyperdrive jumps... blind jumps, electronic warfare measures to obfuscate their hyperspace vector.
Have Holdo pull out he Resistance playbook and let her pull insane ideas on the fly - and it all fails.

Until Finn reminds everyone that there is the cloaked binary beacon of Leia.
"They are cloaked. No one but the Locator device slaved to the beacon can find them."
Holdo orders the beacon deactivated.
And at the next jump... nothing. 30 seconds pass and the command crew and signal techicians stare at each other.
"They found a way to track our cloaked beacons..."

And at the 2 minute mark... the Supremacy fleet arrives.
Deactivating the beacon only bought them time (instead of 30 seconds to arrive the Supremacy now needs more but the engines are still getting roasted, that and constant bombardment while in normal space)

Essentially I would have preferred if they had toned down the subversions to no more than one, or two at the most.
While I think subversion can work well, IMO they were overused in TLJ.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-05-18 05:27pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-18 01:15am
Nevermind how unlikely it would be that the FO, in following this signal, would immediately assume it must lead to the Resistance fleet and send 30 Resurgents and the Supremacy instead of checking first with scout ships.
Why? The First Order fleet was sitting around D'Qar staring at the Raddus for several minutes. It's not too much of a stretch for one of their sensor or communications techs to notice that the Raddus is emitting a locator signal, which must be strong if it works over interstellar distances. At that point they don't need to do anything else but profile the tracking signal and start tracking it. Such a scenario would make Hux's statement that they have the Resistance on the end of a string make much more sense.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-18 06:26pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-18 01:15am
Worse, we're both forgetting that if Leia actually thought it was a possibility that Rey's beacon had been captured - the first step would be simply checking her beacon to see if Rey's signal has either a. shifted from Ach'To or b. never arrived at Ach'To.
See I got the impression they weren't able to communicate in such detail, and the beacon was, to use your expression, exactly what it said on the can. Not a relay or communicator but a simple beacon. It makes little sense, as I cannot believe Leia would not, having found him, at least want to talk to Luke. But there is zero communication between Rey and the fleet and Finn seems to think the only way to stop Rey returning to a 'doomed ship' is to get the beacon away. It doesn't seem to occur to him he can transmit a 'do not follow' code or for that matter, simply turn the thing off. To me that implies the device is on the simpler side and is just a beacon.

Cloaking in general seems poorly handled though. The transports are 'cloaked' although we see the FO has telescopic lenses that can easily spot them, as well as sensors that are capable but simply not used to the full ability for unexplained reasons. The beacon is, well, stated to be a beacon and yet cloaked, a seemingly paradoxical device, like an intangible barrier. And of course DJ, who manages to somehow rig up a cloak on some pleasure yacht by plugging in his hackerbox. It's all a bit too technobabble for my liking.

DJ is actually one of the most dangerous guys we've ever seen in SW. The ability to remotely drop a ships shields is potentially devastating, as is the ability to stealth board a ship.
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