Patroklos wrote: ↑2018-05-13 08:23amI feel this has been answered in spades, but as a former real world DH on US Navy DDGs and on several senior staffs (and currently), there was never a time where anything serious was going on where I was not 100% informed as to the commander's intent and plans pertinent to the present situation. Usually, the entire crew was. Unless there was some sensitive information involved the likely way this took place was an all hands call or a speech over the 1MC, and even then whatever could be shared was.
The simple fact is command is a matter of trust up and down the chain of command. If you want me to die for you had better give be a good reason to feel its for a reason. And in the case of officers, which Poe is, if you want me to put my credibility on the line with my subordinates I have to know for what and why. Its one thing for a senior who is one or two levels above you to tell you they can't give you all the details and to trust their lives to your word because you have hopefully built a more personal senior/subordinate bond, while a remote and unknowable commander back in HQ or sequestered in the bridge has a more tenuous connection. Sure, there is the hard control of orders and hierarchy, but that only gets you so far in extreme situations, which is why an organization that just perpetually leans on collar brass insignia and threats of punishment vice building and maintaining human connections fails in the crunch.
In the case of Holdo, who is essentially a stranger to everyone on Raddus and has no connection with anyone except the few who came over with her from hers ship, her primary purpose should be to coopt the established in crowd leaders from the Raddus in order to borrow their credibility. She does the opposite from the get go.
Thank you for clarifying this, and for your service.
It is possible, of course, that the Resistance operates on different principles and procedures than the real-life US Navy, but your explanation as to the reasoning for such procedures makes sense.
In the real world Poe would know. And while I have said over and over again a mole or inside threat would have been a great mechanic for the claustrophobic and hopeless situation within the Raddus and MAYBE been played to justify not telling him, the movie never provided this so its no excuse. Poe would have known in the real world. Everyone would have known.
I would contend that while the film does not explicitly state that they fear a mole, it is a logical inference, and a justification in-universe for Holdo's actions.
That said, out-of-universe, it should absolutely have been stated in the film, as I've said before.
That's not the issue. The issue is that in those twelve hours everyone not in on Holdo's plan, so the majority of those present on Raddus, just watched two of their ships get destroyed by the FO after running out of fuel with the sure knowledge they will be next shortly and the only think Holdo has told them is to have hope. She told those crews the same "hope" story too...
This is analogus to having three dudes under descending swinging pendulum blades of different lengths. Your lawyer tells all three of you "I don't know how to get you out of this dungeon, but trust me I am going to make it happen! Somehow..." After three hours you watch your buddy Ninka on your right gets sliced in half, his entrails spilling onto the floor. Eight hours in your stare helplessly while your brother Medfrig gets noisily eviscerated on your left, mouthing voiceless pleas to you as the light dies in his eyes. You can see the clock, and you know what you just witnessed will happen to you in exactly four more hours, but when you scream out your lawyer just says "trust me!," meanwhile the pendulum swings ever so closer to your belly. You see what you think is a key to your shackles juuuuuuuuust in reach on the floor....
This is what Holdo did to those she didn't tell. This is what those she didn't tell had to endure. She was literally torturing them for no good reason.
As above, I'd say that there was a good argument for keeping that information quiet- but one that the film failed to articulate.
I'd actually draw a comparison to the Janeway/Caretaker situation from Voyager (another case where a female commander received a lot of hostility from the audience). In that case, Janeway made a decision (the destruction of the Array) which caused great hardship for her crew. I would contend that there were excellent reasons to destroy the Array that the episode could easily have provided- but the writers failed to articulate them clearly to the audience.
You have got this entirely backwards. It is her job, as a superior, to inspire confidence and provide guidance and security to her subordinates, not the other way around.
Its her job to inspire confidence, yes. But I'd presume that it is also Poe's job not to challenge her authority or disobey orders unless necessary.
Dealing with frightened, angry, disillusioned and frustrated subordinates is the primary job of a senior leader. Its the #1 thing they are there to do, to inspire people to be better and accomplish more than they think they can. To be blunt, anyone can come up with plans, and commanders rarely do that themselves. They are there to execute, through the inspiration and management of people.
Fair enough.
I'm not saying anyone (Holdo or Poe) handled the situation ideally. I'm just saying that there are reasons for that given the situation (both explicite and implied) other than "Holdo is evil" or "Holdo is stupid." And that Poe bears some of the blame.
FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2018-05-13 01:57pmPatroklos handled this well, so I'll only add that if Holdo was given a 30 second line about worrying about spies, saboteurs, listening devices, etc, she would come off as having better reasons for her level of secrecy.
Agreed.
And add that another reason to explain what's going on is to make better subordinates, as they'll understand your line of thinking, and help you achieve your goals. Or point out areas you haven't thought of. Or if you have thought of them, explain why their ideas won't work.
In the rewrite in my head, I'd have gone more for this:
Imagine if the film had a mentor and apprentice relationship between Holdo and Poe, with her guiding him to being a better leader, which is what we get between Leia and Poe to an extent. Contrast this with Rey's tutelage under Luke, to show where Luke has given up, Leia and Holding are keeping the fight going. Have Poe making suggestions, Holdo showing him the methods to her madness, and revealing that she's eccentric but brilliant. Hence the cocktail dress in a room full of uniforms. A seemingly odd person who shouldn't be judged by her appearance. A Star Wars style Dumbledore. This way, she leads the flotilla through until the very end, keeping the fleet alive through smarts and her wits. Until, at the end, when all she's out of schemes, we can have a moment like this:
Holdo: One last trick to try, never been done before. Even I knew it was crazy. Hopefully it'll buy everyone the time they need.
Poe: Admiral, what are you doing?
Holdo: Gotta get the engines perfect. There.
Poe: Admiral?
Holdo: Pilot flyboy like you should appreciate this. Poe, it was fun.
Poe: Holdo?
(Cue hyperspace ramming sequence)
It makes Holdo seem easier to empathize with the audience, gives Poe a road to go on regarding his development as a Resistance leader, and explains why people don't do something like the Holdo manuever all the time. While also potentially making a Star Wars moment that will be repeated forever.
Ah well, that's just my spitballing.
As you noted, that's kind of the relationship Poe has with Leia, but giving him that relationship with Holdo would have been arguably redundant, and would have required a major re-write, as ray noted.
I think the problem is two-fold: one, the need for secrecy is never clearly stated. It makes sense as a justification after the fact, but it should have been stated in the film. It would have cleared up a number of plot issues that have been raised in this thread, while still leaving enough to make the audience think Poe was right about Holdo.
Secondly, we don't really get a chance in the film to find out much about Holdo, or see things from her perspective. So we just get half a film of Poe (as previously noted in this thread, a character the audience has already gotten to know and presumably identify with) saying she sucks, followed by a twist. Holdo's goodbye to Leia and her final sacrifice help to make her more sympathetic and give her more depth, but it would have probably helped the audience to sympathize with her if we'd found out a bit more about her.
I might have played up the idea that it was some of Holdo's people that Poe's stunt at the start got killed- given her a stronger personal reason to dislike and distrust him. Hell, maybe even have Holdo blame Poe for Leia being incapacitated, since his stunt wiped out their fighter cover and exposed the Raddus to Kylo's fighter attack. Give her more of a reason for a personal animosity towards Poe. The latter would tie it into her other main relationship in the film (her friendship with Leia), and Leia's recovery could then provide a stronger reason for her to reevaluate her opinion of Poe.
tezunegari wrote: ↑2018-05-13 05:10amHis "fuckup" removed a powerful asset of the First Order at the cost of 8 bombers and a few fighters.
Without an incompetent in command of the FO fleet the losses for taking down a Siege dreadnought are implied to be far higher, maybe even measured in fleets.
The remaining Defense fleets of the Republic Remnant now don't have to worry about the Fulminatrix.
I've been over this before as well, but:
The point is not that the Resistance paid a heavier price than the FO in absolute terms in that engagement. They very clearly didn't.
The point is that directly engaging enemy capital ships when you don't have to is not the tactics of an insurgency- especially when you're so badly outnumbered to begin with. Even if the Resistance kills a dreadnought for the price of one or two fighter/bomber squadrons, the Resistance may well have suffered proportionately heavier losses, because they don't have reserves to call on to the extent that the FO does. That was their
entire fighter and bomber force that Poe lead into that battle- force that they have no immediate means to replace. The loss of those forces meant fewer fighters/bombers to defend the fleet in the next engagement, leaving them more vulnerable to enemy attack, giving them fewer tactical options.
If they had been fighting a conventional war with roughly equivalent forces, Poe's attack on the dreadnought would probably have constituted a stunning success, Leia would likely have okayed it, and he likely would have got a meddle afterward.
For an insurgency- seeking out an open battle with the enemy's heaviest units when you don't have to fight one is idiocy. You think Leia of all people doesn't know about fighting as a guerilla?
Uh, have we watched the same movie? He never questions her leadership until later in the movie; AFTER the Medical frigate and the Ninka have been destroyed and they are down to six hours of fuel.
Poes first interaction with her starts with him summarizing the situation and asking for orders.
Holdo then pulls her flyboy speech.
He is professional, she isn't.
Its possible that I remembered Poe's actions in a more negative light. That said...
00:37:13
Poe: "Vice-Admiral? Commander Dameron. With our current fuel consumption, there is a very limited amount of time tbat we can stay out of range of those Star Destroyers. "
Holdo: "Very kind of you to make me aware." Holdo to Commander D'Acy, apparently ignoring Poe: "Let's get me those fuel projections"
Poe: "And we need to shake them before we can find a new base, so, what's our plan?"
Holdo: "Our plan, Captain?" *walks away from him* "Not Commander, right? Wasn't that Leia's last official act to demote you for your dreadnought plan where we lost our entire bomber fleet?"
Poe: "Captain." "Commander." "You can call me whatever you like." *she grins/smirks at him* "I just wanna know what's going on."
Holdo: "Of course you do. I understand. I've dealt with plenty of trigger-happy flyboys like you." "You're impulsive. Dangerous." "And the last thing we need right now. So stick to your post and follow my orders." *Holdo then leaves*
I will note that while Poe is not openly insulting or hostile (at least not in the words he uses- I'm not sure about things like expression and tone of voice, since you only referred to Holdo's tone or expression when it makes her seem more offensive or unprofessional), that text you quoted does have him interrupting her while she's talking to another officer about the very problem he's asking her about. I will also note that he falsely states his rank to her as "commander" rather than captain (which she corrects).
Both Poe and Holdo make mistakes, certainly. But the Holdo bashers insist that Poe is faultless, and that everything is Holdo's fault. This is bias.
And yet we are never shown how Poe receives any orders!
And all the time between Poes "call me whatever you like" and her "And the last thing we need right now" Holdo had a smirk and demeanor of someone flirting, especially during the 'impulse/dangerous' part. (The german voice actress doens't help there, her voice acting even increases the 'I want to jump your bones right now' vibe for me)
I never got the impression that Holdo was "flirting" as far as I can recall, and "demeanor of someone flirting" seems pretty subjective, anyway. And if you're inserting that subtext as a way of saying "Oh, she was unprofessional toward Poe because she secretly wanted to fuck him", and your basis for that is "I think she sounds sexy"...
Well, let's just say that I'm trying
really hard not to jump to the conclusion that the Holdo bashers are sexist, but you ain't making it easy. Dismissing the professionalism/competency of a female authority figure because you think they're sexy is kind of bog-standard sexism.
Also, what "voice actor"- pretty sure it was the same actor playing Holdo's body and voice.
tezunegari wrote: ↑2018-05-13 08:00amA correction:
The quoted scene was the first public incident.
His first time questioning Holdos leadership is during the scenes where Finn and Rose tell him about the tracker and they hatch their plan.
He agrees with C3POs opppinion that Holdo will not go with the plan.
So its all really C3PO's fault?
I was referring to right after Holdo's initial speech, when Poe says something like "She's not what I expected" and then goes up and asks her about her plan (when she responds by calling him "flyboy"). At least, that's what I recalled. It is possible my memory is in error, in which case disregard.