Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Mange » 2018-04-28 09:47am

ray245 wrote:
2018-04-28 07:51am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-26 06:19pm
Civil War Man wrote:
2018-04-25 04:40pm


That is a little bit of what I was trying to get into with my post. If he's next in line to command, or close to it, it is irresponsible to not keep him up to date on the plan, or at least make sure he knows the general outline and who he needs to talk to if he has to take over.

It reminds me of something that happened in the state I live in over a decade ago. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor were from different parties, and the Governor and his people mostly just shut the Lieutenant Governor out of day-to-day operations as a result. Then, one day, there was a nasty snowstorm that blew through. Problem is, the Governor was out of the country at the time, and his staff were still locking the Lieutenant Governor out of the process even though she was supposed to be taking over in the Governor's absence. The whole thing turned into a massive clusterfuck, of the "school buses full of kids stranded in the snow for 5 hours because they didn't let school out early enough" kind of clusterfuck.
I forgot about this, but this is actually probably the strongest argument I've seen anyone make yet for why Holdo should have told Poe, and I ought to have addressed it in my last post to Kojiro.

I would still say that there's a strong argument for not telling Poe given that he was just demoted for insubordination and recklessness that got people killed, and persists in being insubordinate. And we don't actually know the whole chain of command. But the possibility that Poe might end up in command creates an argument for putting Poe in the "need to know" category.

That said, I would assume that command would have passed from Holdo to the captains of the Ninka and the medical frigate first, before going to Poe (I'm assuming a frigate's CO ranks higher than a fighter squadron commander). So I can't imagine that he was higher than fourth in the chain of command (third after the Ninka's captain died). And that's a high-end estimate.
Except Poe was basically asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew. For Holdo to not tell everyone about a plan and demoralise the entire crew further ( prompting others to join Poe on his mutiny) is a sign of bad leadership.

What she did was to make Poe look like a reasonable person with a plan in front of everyone, in public.
Another thing to consider is that with so few surviving officers, Poe (who had just destroyed the Starkiller and a Dreadnaught) would've ranked as a senior officer (even perhaps the second in command).

The movie is stupid on so many levels.

EDIT: Sorry, Civil War Man had already pointed that out. Also, if Poe hadn't destroyed the Dreadnaught (with its relatively small cost), the last puny remains of the Resistance would've been destroyed (seriously, Johnson is the worst in SW when it comes to not understanding scale).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-04-28 10:10am

I just get annoyed when people try to judge characters' action in a binary manner. Just because Poe is a complete idiot doesn't make Holdo less of an idiot.

It's possible to accuse both leaders of the Resistance as utterly failing the people under their command. Especially with their stupid dick-waving contest.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-28 11:57am

The difference is we are stuck with the characters inherited from the previous movie so tolerating them is an assumption walking in. We didn’t have to have Holdo, she is a wholesale invention of this movie and this new director so is more illuminating to examine her when getting at a root cause analysis of how this cadre of film makers fucked up.

Holdo and Rose are really the only significant new characters of the film. The only significant thing Rose does happens off screen before the film even starts (which also says something about this cluster fuck), so Holdo’s writing and presentation are thus a unique window into the bones of this film.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-28 03:49pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-04-28 07:51am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-26 06:19pm
Civil War Man wrote:
2018-04-25 04:40pm


That is a little bit of what I was trying to get into with my post. If he's next in line to command, or close to it, it is irresponsible to not keep him up to date on the plan, or at least make sure he knows the general outline and who he needs to talk to if he has to take over.

It reminds me of something that happened in the state I live in over a decade ago. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor were from different parties, and the Governor and his people mostly just shut the Lieutenant Governor out of day-to-day operations as a result. Then, one day, there was a nasty snowstorm that blew through. Problem is, the Governor was out of the country at the time, and his staff were still locking the Lieutenant Governor out of the process even though she was supposed to be taking over in the Governor's absence. The whole thing turned into a massive clusterfuck, of the "school buses full of kids stranded in the snow for 5 hours because they didn't let school out early enough" kind of clusterfuck.
I forgot about this, but this is actually probably the strongest argument I've seen anyone make yet for why Holdo should have told Poe, and I ought to have addressed it in my last post to Kojiro.

I would still say that there's a strong argument for not telling Poe given that he was just demoted for insubordination and recklessness that got people killed, and persists in being insubordinate. And we don't actually know the whole chain of command. But the possibility that Poe might end up in command creates an argument for putting Poe in the "need to know" category.

That said, I would assume that command would have passed from Holdo to the captains of the Ninka and the medical frigate first, before going to Poe (I'm assuming a frigate's CO ranks higher than a fighter squadron commander). So I can't imagine that he was higher than fourth in the chain of command (third after the Ninka's captain died). And that's a high-end estimate.
Except Poe was basically asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew. For Holdo to not tell everyone about a plan and demoralise the entire crew further ( prompting others to join Poe on his mutiny) is a sign of bad leadership.

What she did was to make Poe look like a reasonable person with a plan in front of everyone, in public.
It seems to me slightly misleading to say that Poe was "asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew", as it implies (without offering any real evidence for it) that his views reflected those of the whole crew and/or that he was acting with their endorsement.

Poe doubtless sincerely believed that he was acting on behalf of the rest of the crew. That doesn't mean he was right.

And to turn the question around, how would it have reflected on Holdo's leadership if she had caved to the demands of a blatantly insubordinate officer? Would not that have potentially eroded her authority?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-28 04:01pm

Mange wrote:
2018-04-28 09:47am
ray245 wrote:
2018-04-28 07:51am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-26 06:19pm


I forgot about this, but this is actually probably the strongest argument I've seen anyone make yet for why Holdo should have told Poe, and I ought to have addressed it in my last post to Kojiro.

I would still say that there's a strong argument for not telling Poe given that he was just demoted for insubordination and recklessness that got people killed, and persists in being insubordinate. And we don't actually know the whole chain of command. But the possibility that Poe might end up in command creates an argument for putting Poe in the "need to know" category.

That said, I would assume that command would have passed from Holdo to the captains of the Ninka and the medical frigate first, before going to Poe (I'm assuming a frigate's CO ranks higher than a fighter squadron commander). So I can't imagine that he was higher than fourth in the chain of command (third after the Ninka's captain died). And that's a high-end estimate.
Except Poe was basically asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew. For Holdo to not tell everyone about a plan and demoralise the entire crew further ( prompting others to join Poe on his mutiny) is a sign of bad leadership.

What she did was to make Poe look like a reasonable person with a plan in front of everyone, in public.
Another thing to consider is that with so few surviving officers, Poe (who had just destroyed the Starkiller and a Dreadnaught) would've ranked as a senior officer (even perhaps the second in command).

The movie is stupid on so many levels.

EDIT: Sorry, Civil War Man had already pointed that out. Also, if Poe hadn't destroyed the Dreadnaught (with its relatively small cost), the last puny remains of the Resistance would've been destroyed (seriously, Johnson is the worst in SW when it comes to not understanding scale).
Did it benefit, perhaps even save the Resistance that Poe destroyed the dreadnought? Yes, probably. However, this cannot be used as an argument for why Poe was in the right (and therefore why Holdo was wrong to mistrust him), because the advantages to destroying the dreadnought whatever the cost are only evident with the benefit of hindsight. Based on what they knew at the time, Poe's actions were recklessly, costly, insubordinate, and unnecessary.

Engaging in pitched conventional battles with the enemy's heaviest units is not how an insurgency is supposed to operate. Leia certainly must know that, given her history. She was fighting an insurgency (which makes sense given the disparity in firepower), and Poe was trying to fight a conventional fleet action. So I think Leia was still right to discipline him. Poe made the right call here, but for the wrong reasons and only with the benefit of hindsight.

I've already addressed the point about the chain of command, though I will reiterate that there is not only zero reason to believe that Poe was next in line after Holdo, but that there is considerable reason to believe otherwise. In all probability (and consistent with the rest of canon, I believe), starship captains would outrank a fighter squadron commander, so the COs of the two escorts would have probably outranked Poe. At most, he would likely have been fourth in line (third after the Ninka's captain died). Its entirely possible that whoever was in charge of the ground troops might have outranked him as well, for example (if they held the rank of general).

That said, this is certainly the strongest argument for keeping Poe in the loop.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-04-28 05:02pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 03:49pm
It seems to me slightly misleading to say that Poe was "asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew", as it implies (without offering any real evidence for it) that his views reflected those of the whole crew and/or that he was acting with their endorsement.
What's the plan certainly seem a reasonable question to ask. Poe asked the question in public, and no one seems to dispute his point in public. The fact that people like Rose ( who create the cloaking devices) joined his plan is just a good sign that people do share Poe's thinking.
Poe doubtless sincerely believed that he was acting on behalf of the rest of the crew. That doesn't mean he was right.
Is Poe's question a valid question in that circumstances?
And to turn the question around, how would it have reflected on Holdo's leadership if she had caved to the demands of a blatantly insubordinate officer? Would not that have potentially eroded her authority?
Just because you answered the question of an insubordinate officer does not mean you lose authority and respect. Aren't you a teacher? Just because a misbehaving kid asked a question shared by the rest of the class does not mean you lose respect if you don't answer the question. Moreover, if the question is seen as a way to undermine authority, won't you lose even more authority by refusing to give an answer in front of everyone else?

I'm finding it frustrating that you're becoming an apologist for Holdo rather than judge her independently and fairly. Yes, Poe is an idiot, but that does not mean Holdo is right. The arguments you are throwing in defence of Holdo is becoming more and more absurd as if Holdo can never make a mistake as a leader.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Mange » 2018-04-28 05:07pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 04:01pm
Mange wrote:
2018-04-28 09:47am
ray245 wrote:
2018-04-28 07:51am


Except Poe was basically asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew. For Holdo to not tell everyone about a plan and demoralise the entire crew further ( prompting others to join Poe on his mutiny) is a sign of bad leadership.

What she did was to make Poe look like a reasonable person with a plan in front of everyone, in public.
Another thing to consider is that with so few surviving officers, Poe (who had just destroyed the Starkiller and a Dreadnaught) would've ranked as a senior officer (even perhaps the second in command).

The movie is stupid on so many levels.

EDIT: Sorry, Civil War Man had already pointed that out. Also, if Poe hadn't destroyed the Dreadnaught (with its relatively small cost), the last puny remains of the Resistance would've been destroyed (seriously, Johnson is the worst in SW when it comes to not understanding scale).
Did it benefit, perhaps even save the Resistance that Poe destroyed the dreadnought? Yes, probably. However, this cannot be used as an argument for why Poe was in the right (and therefore why Holdo was wrong to mistrust him), because the advantages to destroying the dreadnought whatever the cost are only evident with the benefit of hindsight. Based on what they knew at the time, Poe's actions were recklessly, costly, insubordinate, and unnecessary.
Yet it was the person who had just destroyed Starkiller Base. What did it cost? A few worthless bombers that seemed to be made out of paper (seriously, one would think that bombers would've been better armored and have better shielding. They had a few A-wing fighters, so what happened to the better Y-wings and B-wings?) and their crews. Looking into the ICS, the Fulminatrix had a crew of 190,000 and carried 22,000 stormtroopers. Any way you slice it its destruction was a major victory. It could not be used against the Resistance nor used to subjagate Republic worlds (the ICS implies it was the only ship of its kind and could punch through planetary shields).

Remember, the Resistance was down to a number of hundreds of people at this point. Of course, the enormous disparity between forces of the First Order, which is stated to employ "legions" in the opening scroll vs the handful of people and ships of the Resistance, makes the whole "getting rich by selling arms to both sides"-point so utterly ridiculous.

What ultimately saved the Resistance ships was that its commander was a moron just like everyone else in this movie and opened fire at the base first rather than on the "fleet" that could jump to hyperspace at any point (and of course that the FO fleet wasn't used to blockade the planet and that the morons didn't launch fighters earlier)
The Romulan Republic wrote:Engaging in pitched conventional battles with the enemy's heaviest units is not how an insurgency is supposed to operate. Leia certainly must know that, given her history. She was fighting an insurgency (which makes sense given the disparity in firepower), and Poe was trying to fight a conventional fleet action. So I think Leia was still right to discipline him. Poe made the right call here, but for the wrong reasons and only with the benefit of hindsight.
I've made my point, but speaking of Leia... When Poe turned off his comms, why didn't Leia recall the rest of the fighters, as well as the bombers, herself (or through Ackbar or whoever), and stating that Poe was acting against orders? She failed to step up and take responsibility herself.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-28 05:44pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-04-28 05:02pm
What's the plan certainly seem a reasonable question to ask. Poe asked the question in public, and no one seems to dispute his point in public. The fact that people like Rose ( who create the cloaking devices) joined his plan is just a good sign that people do share Poe's thinking.
Oh, some certainly do.

I just think there's not much reason to believe that Poe was speaking for the entire crew. As to why others wouldn't dispute it- maybe they had shit to do other than inserting themselves into Holdo and Poe's argument?
Is Poe's question a valid question in that circumstances?
I think its reasonable for him to have concerns at that point, of course. But he could have voiced them more diplomatically, and it doesn't excuse his earlier insubordination and trying to conduct a covert op behind his CO's back.
Just because you answered the question of an insubordinate officer does not mean you lose authority and respect. Aren't you a teacher? Just because a misbehaving kid asked a question shared by the rest of the class does not mean you lose respect if you don't answer the question. Moreover, if the question is seen as a way to undermine authority, won't you lose even more authority by refusing to give an answer in front of everyone else?
I'm not a teacher, I'm an actor/writer. In any case, while I can't speak from personal experience, I'd expect that the role of a teacher (who has to deal with unruly children as a matter of course, and educate them) and the role of a military officer (who is commanding adult professionals who are, generally, expected to follow orders) are somewhat different.
I'm finding it frustrating that you're becoming an apologist for Holdo rather than judge her independently and fairly. Yes, Poe is an idiot, but that does not mean Holdo is right. The arguments you are throwing in defence of Holdo is becoming more and more absurd as if Holdo can never make a mistake as a leader.
This is simply untrue. Did you even read my last post to Kojiro, where I listed a number of points where I felt Holdo could be criticized?

I don't think she's perfect. But I think her failings are exaggerated.

Its hard to be certain, because of the incomplete evidence and limited screen time she receives, but I think that she's a brave officer, personally capable in combat, probably a pretty good tactician, genuinely committed to the well-being of her people, probably somewhat lacking in personal charisma, was needlessly confrontational with Poe (albeit understandably given his own attitude and recent events), and probably should have put him in the brig earlier.

As to weather she should have informed him of her plans: I'd say the answer to that depends on how high he was in the chain of command, which is a question I don't have a definitive answer on.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-04-28 06:00pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 05:44pm
Oh, some certainly do.

I just think there's not much reason to believe that Poe was speaking for the entire crew. As to why others wouldn't dispute it- maybe they had shit to do other than inserting themselves into Holdo and Poe's argument?
They are gathered in a big conference room to listen and talk about what's going to happen next. If they all think Poe is an idiot, don't you think someone would have talked about this? Moreover, even supposedly rational people like Rose think Poe's concern is valid.


I think its reasonable for him to have concerns at that point, of course. But he could have voiced them more diplomatically, and it doesn't excuse his earlier insubordination and trying to conduct a covert op behind his CO's back.
And no one is really excusing him for that. Poe is wrong, that doesn't mean Holdo is doing a correct thing by revealing nothing to the crew and causing morale to collapse even further. ( The novel stated more people tried to flee the ship after Holdo had her talk and took over the resistance).

I'm not a teacher, I'm an actor/writer. In any case, while I can't speak from personal experience, I'd expect that the role of a teacher (who has to deal with unruly children as a matter of course, and educate them) and the role of a military officer (who is commanding adult professionals who are, generally, expected to follow orders) are somewhat different.
Then I think your lack of experience with more leadership setting is being showcased in your arguments. Role of a teacher and officer shares similar traits when it comes to demonstrating good leadership. Being a soldier doesn't turn someone into a robot. They have fears and concerns just like every other human being. Authority is fundamentally the same thing regardless of circumstances.

This is simply untrue. Did you even read my last post to Kojiro, where I listed a number of points where I felt Holdo could be criticized?

I don't think she's perfect. But I think her failings are exaggerated.

Its hard to be certain, because of the incomplete evidence and limited screen time she receives, but I think that she's a brave officer, personally capable in combat, probably a pretty good tactician, genuinely committed to the well-being of her people, probably somewhat lacking in personal charisma, was needlessly confrontational with Poe (albeit understandably given his own attitude and recent events), and probably should have put him in the brig earlier.

As to weather she should have informed him of her plans: I'd say the answer to that depends on how high he was in the chain of command, which is a question I don't have a definitive answer on.
If a brand new boss came into the boardroom and almost immediately get into a piss-fight with a manager (with known subordinate issues), how much respect do you think people are going to pay to her? Especially considering the circumstances they are in. Morale is at rock-bottom, and the first thing you do as a new commander is to get into a verbal fight with another leader?

The most stupid thing has she undermined Poe then needlessly let him wander around the ship recruiting people to undermine her. From her soldiers POV, she has failed them in everyway. She needs to be a leader, earned through her actions and not her rank. Instead she immediately tried to pull her rank and expecting soldiers to be complete robots.

I'm tired of people treating soldiers like robots. Yes, just because they are trained to follow orders doesn't make them any less human. Soldiers are just as much subject to fear and demoralisation as everyone else.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Batman » 2018-04-28 06:13pm

Also, we're talking the Resistance. They're NOT rank and file regular military
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-04-28 06:21pm

Any military leader who walks into his/her command and expecting rank alone to be enough does not deserve to be officers, let alone a senior officer. Rian Johnson is so addicted to subverting expectations that he subverted Holdo beyond redemption as a leader.

Trying to subvert everything is basically Rian Johnson's gimmick, same as JJ Abrams' gimmick. The problem is these two directors are both so obsessed with their trademark gimmick that they will undermine the story along the way.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-04-29 06:46am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 03:49pm
It seems to me slightly misleading to say that Poe was "asking on behalf of the entire surviving crew", as it implies (without offering any real evidence for it) that his views reflected those of the whole crew and/or that he was acting with their endorsement.
Poe does say, gesturing to the rest of the bridge, ' "We had a fleet and now we're down to one ship, and you've told us nothing. Tell us you have a plan!" Bolding mine. He is a senior officer and, over 12 hours, has undoubtedly been asked by various people 'Poe sir, what's our plan?' Certainly any pilots still alive- of which we know they have at least 60, would likely be looking to him as the wing commander and their direct superior for orders.

So this puts us in another bind. Either Holdo told no one else, which makes her an idiot (even as she stands on an equally unsafe bridge that the rest of the command staff were killed on) or she told others but not Poe, in which case she's stupidly petty.

Mind you we still don't know why Poe isn't aware of the cloaks if they're fleet wide.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 03:49pm
And to turn the question around, how would it have reflected on Holdo's leadership if she had caved to the demands of a blatantly insubordinate officer? Would not that have potentially eroded her authority?
That's debatable, but if your crew is at the point of mutiny, or very close to, giving them what they want might actually help you maintain control. Even if it's just saying what they want to hear, such as 'There is a plan.'

That's always going to be a problem with her in my eyes- that she refused to even concede there was a plan. It's such a small concession.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-04-29 07:30am

Wasn't Poe essentially her XO as well?

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-29 08:58am

Galvatron wrote:
2018-04-29 07:30am
Wasn't Poe essentially her XO as well?
Wouldn't the officer who brought up that Holdo was in charge due to the chain of command be the next in line? Or was she just someone in administration who knew the line if succession?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-29 09:25am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-28 04:01pm
I've already addressed the point about the chain of command, though I will reiterate that there is not only zero reason to believe that Poe was next in line after Holdo, but that there is considerable reason to believe otherwise. In all probability (and consistent with the rest of canon, I believe), starship captains would outrank a fighter squadron commander, so the COs of the two escorts would have probably outranked Poe. At most, he would likely have been fourth in line (third after the Ninka's captain died). Its entirely possible that whoever was in charge of the ground troops might have outranked him as well, for example (if they held the rank of general).
Poe is not a squadron commander, but rather a wing commander according to Wookiepedia. In the real world, in the only Navy that still has an analogous shipboard fighter force, the wing commander ranks with but after the ship commander in things not involving his squadrons, and the ship commander has no say over the squadron activity at all. Usually there is a strike group commander on a flagship (which a carrier always is) with his staff including several senior Captains as well, so essentially the wing commander and ship CO rank with each other, and report to the Admiral (which here is analogous to Leia). If you want to get real technical its probably a crap shoot regarding who's lineal number is higher between a wing commander and carrier CO, so that doesn't help. BTW, carrier COs are also aviators. The CVW CO may not always embark himself. Its possible to be both a carrier CO and a CVW CO, but I don't know of any as both qualify as major commands and you want to share the love to develop as many career competitive officers as possible.

Wing commanders are senior O6s, bucking at flag (though the perception is carrier COs are more competitive for flag). Escorts (DDGs, CGs) are either O5s or junior O6s. So in the real world the CSW CO is probably senior to any escorts.

To muddy the waters a carrier probably has a destroyer squadron (DESRON) Commodore embarked, who is usually a post command senior O6, who essentially serves the same role of the CVW CO regarding aircraft, only for everything else. He could be senior to the CVW CO, but again this is a crap shoot. If Ackbar wasn' the actual Raddus CO (I haven't looked it up), he may have served an analogous role here, but he is dead so...

All this to say, if you want to use the real world to suggest Poe is junior to the escort commanders that's a losing strategy. Not only is he probably senior, but by a large margin.

Holdo existing as a Vice Admiral is an anomaly if applying modern standards. There is no reason to have her as a flag officer given the size of their fleet, especially since Ackbar is still active. Unless she was fullfilling a special missions assignment where she needed the gravitas of rank to operate I see no reason for her role to exist. Possibly she was a facilities commander, there is no reason to assume the experience we hear of was from a space battle. Its also possible the Rebel fleet was recently bigger, but the combat we hear her participating in resulted in the majority of her command no longer existing (which is not to say it was a defeat). I will also caution, again, that when dealing with insurgencies or adhoc forces there probably doesn't exist some sort of career path. People are promoted based on what they bring to the table resource and skill wise on a whim. It could be Holdo is a member of a particular strategic cell, and was just given the rank as a way to recognize that and keep that cell in the fold.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-29 10:28am

Patroklos wrote:
2018-04-29 09:25am
Holdo existing as a Vice Admiral is an anomaly if applying modern standards. There is no reason to have her as a flag officer given the size of their fleet, especially since Ackbar is still active. Unless she was fullfilling a special missions assignment where she needed the gravitas of rank to operate I see no reason for her role to exist. Possibly she was a facilities commander, there is no reason to assume the experience we hear of was from a space battle. Its also possible the Rebel fleet was recently bigger, but the combat we hear her participating in resulted in the majority of her command no longer existing (which is not to say it was a defeat). I will also caution, again, that when dealing with insurgencies or adhoc forces there probably doesn't exist some sort of career path. People are promoted based on what they bring to the table resource and skill wise on a whim. It could be Holdo is a member of a particular strategic cell, and was just given the rank as a way to recognize that and keep that cell in the fold.
Possible, we do see that the Rebellion from the Civil War had a Council with people contributing forces in Rogue One.

As to whether or not the Resistance is structured that way is unknown. But given the similarities, I wouldn't be surprised, as was discussed here
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:04pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:10pm


Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
Opposite is too strong a word, it's not solely based on merit.

Han Solo was promoted to General due to his affiliation with Leia and Luke, while he was frozen in Carbonite. Leia's own initial rank comes from her adoptive father's founding of the Rebellion, his rank comes from his wife's royalty. Ackbar's supreme rank due to the Mon Calamari bringing in the majority of ships from their world into the Rebel Alliance.

This is due to the cell structure of the Alliance, but it shows that resources and connections count for a lot in the Alliance.
It's why I wouldn't be surprised if Holdo achieved her rank via contribution of resources.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-01 10:53am

Mange wrote:
2018-04-28 05:07pm
Yet it was the person who had just destroyed Starkiller Base. What did it cost? A few worthless bombers that seemed to be made out of paper (seriously, one would think that bombers would've been better armored and have better shielding. They had a few A-wing fighters, so what happened to the better Y-wings and B-wings?)
Why would we assume 'better' Y-Wings and B-Wings would be effective? There's no reason to think the paltry dozen or so proton torpedoes they carry would be able to acheive what a bomber carrying 1,084 bombs would. Even 10% of those bombs beng sufficient to destroy the dreadnought is more than enough to take an equivalent number of Y-Wings or B-Wing out of contention.

Also, the assertion that the bombers are 'made out of paper' is exaggerated. Paige's bomber survived multiple TIE blasts without getting destroyed.

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Looking into the ICS, the Fulminatrix had a crew of 190,000 and carried 22,000 stormtroopers. Any way you slice it its destruction was a major victory. It could not be used against the Resistance nor used to subjagate Republic worlds (the ICS implies it was the only ship of its kind and could punch through planetary shields).
There's nothing in the ICS that implies Fulminatrix is a unique ship AFAIK.
Remember, the Resistance was down to a number of hundreds of people at this point. Of course, the enormous disparity between forces of the First Order, which is stated to employ "legions" in the opening scroll vs the handful of people and ships of the Resistance, makes the whole "getting rich by selling arms to both sides"-point so utterly ridiculous.
Why? The point is amorality, not the amount you profit from any particular sale.
What ultimately saved the Resistance ships was that its commander was a moron just like everyone else in this movie and opened fire at the base first rather than on the "fleet" that could jump to hyperspace at any point (and of course that the FO fleet wasn't used to blockade the planet and that the morons didn't launch fighters earlier)
A blockade would be pointless though. This isn't Hoth, where evacuation hadn't even begun. They were mid-evacuation.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Mange » 2018-05-02 02:04pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-05-01 10:53am
Mange wrote:
2018-04-28 05:07pm
Yet it was the person who had just destroyed Starkiller Base. What did it cost? A few worthless bombers that seemed to be made out of paper (seriously, one would think that bombers would've been better armored and have better shielding. They had a few A-wing fighters, so what happened to the better Y-wings and B-wings?)
Why would we assume 'better' Y-Wings and B-Wings would be effective? There's no reason to think the paltry dozen or so proton torpedoes they carry would be able to acheive what a bomber carrying 1,084 bombs would. Even 10% of those bombs beng sufficient to destroy the dreadnought is more than enough to take an equivalent number of Y-Wings or B-Wing out of contention.

Also, the assertion that the bombers are 'made out of paper' is exaggerated. Paige's bomber survived multiple TIE blasts without getting destroyed.

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Six out of seven bombers were destroyed by a single event. They were too slow and too unmaneuverable. We don't know enough to compare the yield between the weapons they and the Y-wings were carrying, but we've seen Y-wings performing great in bombing raids (such as in Rogue One).
Vympel wrote:
Looking into the ICS, the Fulminatrix had a crew of 190,000 and carried 22,000 stormtroopers. Any way you slice it its destruction was a major victory. It could not be used against the Resistance nor used to subjagate Republic worlds (the ICS implies it was the only ship of its kind and could punch through planetary shields).
There's nothing in the ICS that implies Fulminatrix is a unique ship AFAIK.
Well, off the top of my head it says to the effect that "The Fulminatrix is the first of a line of ships..." However, Poe does say "These things are fleet-killers" and the Wook infers that there are more ships of the class so I concede the point.
Vympel wrote:
Remember, the Resistance was down to a number of hundreds of people at this point. Of course, the enormous disparity between forces of the First Order, which is stated to employ "legions" in the opening scroll vs the handful of people and ships of the Resistance, makes the whole "getting rich by selling arms to both sides"-point so utterly ridiculous.
Why? The point is amorality, not the amount you profit from any particular sale.
Huh, yes of course. But there must also be a logic to the story.
Vympel wrote:
What ultimately saved the Resistance ships was that its commander was a moron just like everyone else in this movie and opened fire at the base first rather than on the "fleet" that could jump to hyperspace at any point (and of course that the FO fleet wasn't used to blockade the planet and that the morons didn't launch fighters earlier)
A blockade would be pointless though. This isn't Hoth, where evacuation hadn't even begun. They were mid-evacuation.
Perhaps "blockade" wasn't the correct choice of word: They should've been brought to interdict the evacuation (and if the Fulminatrix had opened fire on the fleet first, then probably there wouldn't have been anywhere to evacuate to).. And as the commander of the Fulminatrix noted, the fighters should have been launched much earlier (why is Hux in command of the fleet? Why not an admiral?).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-05-02 03:20pm

Mange wrote:
2018-05-02 02:04pm
Perhaps "blockade" wasn't the correct choice of word: They should've been brought to interdict the evacuation (and if the Fulminatrix had opened fire on the fleet first, then probably there wouldn't have been anywhere to evacuate to)..
The most stunningly stupid thing here is that the FO apparently though that if they fired on the base, the Resistance would sit there for a full five minutes while they powered up again. I'm sure the calculations for a hyperspace jump have been done at this point in the evacuation. But then Leia is also an idiot for not leaving the moment the 'fleet killer' rocked up- she can't possibly have known they'd shoot the base first.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-05-02 11:27pm

Mange wrote:
2018-05-02 02:04pm
Six out of seven bombers were destroyed by a single event.
Well we saw three bombers destroyed by a single event (the extremely unlucky TIE collision) another was expressly shot to pieces and destroyed, and the balance (three IIRC, as they started with eight) were lost off-screen.
They were too slow and too unmaneuverable.
True, but a separate issue from being made of paper.
We don't know enough to compare the yield between the weapons they and the Y-wings were carrying, but we've seen Y-wings performing great in bombing raids (such as in Rogue One).
There's no reason to think that Y-Wing weapons have greater yield than an Starfortress. If anything it would have to be less. Starfortress bombs are much larger than the proton torpedoes a Y-Wing carries, are unburdened with space for either guidance systems or propulsion, and also the handful of bombs the Y-Wings dropped on the shield gate over Scarif had no discernible effect.

Come to think of it, the shield gate at Scarif is somewhere the Starfortresses, with their thousands of bombs, could definitely have a role. Provided they had sufficient fighter cover to both suppress enemy fighters and destroy enemy surface defences. But they're definitely an appropriate tool for a large military with huge resources, not a poorly equipped rebel force that can't afford to commit enough forces to protect these very slow lumbering things.
Perhaps "blockade" wasn't the correct choice of word: They should've been brought to interdict the evacuation (and if the Fulminatrix had opened fire on the fleet first, then probably there wouldn't have been anywhere to evacuate to).. And as the commander of the Fulminatrix noted, the fighters should have been launched much earlier (why is Hux in command of the fleet? Why not an admiral?).
Agreed. The novelization makes it quite clear Hux is an incompetent and is known to be so by both his subordinates (Canady, though this is apparent in the film) and Ackbar - he's obsessed with optics and using his Big Shipz and Big Gunz to destroy things while making a big show out of it, rather than doing what's effective. As to rank - I think he's in command because his rank of 'General' isn't a mere army rank, but a sort of Generalissimo type appelation. He's clearly in charge of all First Order forces by default.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-11 06:28pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-02 03:20pm
Mange wrote:
2018-05-02 02:04pm
Perhaps "blockade" wasn't the correct choice of word: They should've been brought to interdict the evacuation (and if the Fulminatrix had opened fire on the fleet first, then probably there wouldn't have been anywhere to evacuate to)..
The most stunningly stupid thing here is that the FO apparently though that if they fired on the base, the Resistance would sit there for a full five minutes while they powered up again. I'm sure the calculations for a hyperspace jump have been done at this point in the evacuation. But then Leia is also an idiot for not leaving the moment the 'fleet killer' rocked up- she can't possibly have known they'd shoot the base first.
One thing I think we can agree on is that the FO's fleet tactics are worthless.

Part of that, I'd think, is down to Hux not being a space forces commander, "general" typically being an army (or star fighter commander) rank. Hux does seems to be a little more on the ball during the final ground battle, where he's confident enough to directly countermand Kylo Ren, and criticizes him for getting distracted by Luke.

But he's also, as Vymple said, a grandstander. He's used to having overwhelming firepower, likes to show it off, and is basically a frothing fanatic. And unlike Holdo, who the film does not intend to be a poor leader (whatever opinion one may have on the effectiveness of that twist), this is very clearly intentional with Hux- Snoke sneers at him to Kylo and humiliates him in front of his men, Poe basically trolls him, and the FO dreadnought commander pretty clearly regards his tactics as inept. He's pretty much a joke throughout the film, except for that one moment where he starts to reach for his gun to shoot an unconscious Kylo Ren.

As for Leia not leaving... that is questionable, yes. The only thing I can think is that Leia was still in the process of evacuating, and either couldn't go into hyper because transports were still docking, or simply refused to abandon her forces.

This would be in keeping with Leia's conversation with Holdo at the end (she basically says that she can't take losing anyone else when Holdo decides to stay behind IIRC), and with the idea that their goal is less about winning in the end than keeping their people, and hope, alive. Of course, staying risks everyone being wiped out, but it seems that Leia has just lost so much at this point (her son, her lover, her brother, the government she spent the first half of her life fighting to build) that she can't bear the thought of losing anyone else. Its probably the same reason why she didn't jump to hyper and abandon Poe's squadron when he disobeyed orders, and part of why she came down so hard on Poe for those losses.

It may not always lead her to make the right tactical decisions (though as a rule, "trying to keep people alive" is a good goal to start with), but its a very understandable reaction. So character-wise, I'm okay with that. People aren't tactical computers programmed for MAXIMUM PRAGMATISM, after all. They are influenced by their emotions. As long as the characterization is consistent/makes sense based on the circumstances, it works.

This could probably be considered a theme of the film, actually: "Characters making poor choices due to emotion." Poe makes poor choices out of fear and anger. Luke's poor choice driven by fear is responsible for Kylo's fall, and his guilt and shame keeps him on the sidelines until the end of the film. Rey is tempted by Kylo/the Dark Side, and walks blindly into Snoke's trap, because of her insecurities over her family and desire to find a place for herself. Kylo, of course, is a walking bundle of insecurities and resentments. Hux is prideful and arrogant to the point of incompetence. And Leia is afraid of suffering more loss, to the point that it arguably is implied to affect her tactical judgement*.

Does this validate the Old Republic Jedi view that attachment, and the resulting emotions, lead to the Dark Side? Not necessarily. The Jedi weren't wrong when they said that fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, etc. The problem is that they tried to suppress all attachment, rather than find ways to acknowledge those emotions without letting them control you.

*Holdo, oddly enough, doesn't really seem to fit into this theme that I can see. We're given partial information to make us think she's a bad commander, and then she turns out to be a good one. That's about all there is to her. There's not much depth to her, nor much reason given for why she is the person that she is. We know very little about her past. The only thing to really humanize her is her conversation with Leia. I guess she's... a little impatient with Poe? But then, I never claimed that Holdo was an example of great or profound characterization- just that based on on-screen evidence, she's not a bad officer. Character-wise, she's not much more than a plot device/way for Poe to learn a lesson.

Hope the EU fleshes her out more.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-11 06:40pm

On the emotion vs. detachment thing, its interesting to note that the only character in TLJ who takes an explicitly detached and "pragmatic" approach to everything is DJ, who is... not the most sympathetic character, and is arguably a "take that" to whataboutism.

So I don't think the intent is "emotion is bad". More "In the absence of hope, fear/anger/pride can cloud our judgement." Or maybe its just the film being frustratingly ambiguous again.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by tezunegari » 2018-05-11 07:06pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-05-11 06:28pm
Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-02 03:20pm
Mange wrote:
2018-05-02 02:04pm
Perhaps "blockade" wasn't the correct choice of word: They should've been brought to interdict the evacuation (and if the Fulminatrix had opened fire on the fleet first, then probably there wouldn't have been anywhere to evacuate to)..
The most stunningly stupid thing here is that the FO apparently though that if they fired on the base, the Resistance would sit there for a full five minutes while they powered up again. I'm sure the calculations for a hyperspace jump have been done at this point in the evacuation. But then Leia is also an idiot for not leaving the moment the 'fleet killer' rocked up- she can't possibly have known they'd shoot the base first.
One thing I think we can agree on is that the FO's fleet tactics are worthless.

Part of that, I'd think, is down to Hux not being a space forces commander, "general" typically being an army (or star fighter commander) rank. Hux does seems to be a little more on the ball during the final ground battle, where he's confident enough to directly countermand Kylo Ren, and criticizes him for getting distracted by Luke.

But he's also, as Vymple said, a grandstander. He's used to having overwhelming firepower, likes to show it off, and is basically a frothing fanatic. And unlike Holdo, who the film does not intend to be a poor leader (whatever opinion one may have on the effectiveness of that twist), this is very clearly intentional with Hux- Snoke sneers at him to Kylo and humiliates him in front of his men, Poe basically trolls him, and the FO dreadnought commander pretty clearly regards his tactics as inept. He's pretty much a joke throughout the film, except for that one moment where he starts to reach for his gun to shoot an unconscious Kylo Ren.

As for Leia not leaving... that is questionable, yes. The only thing I can think is that Leia was still in the process of evacuating, and either couldn't go into hyper because transports were still docking, or simply refused to abandon her forces.

This would be in keeping with Leia's conversation with Holdo at the end (she basically says that she can't take losing anyone else when Holdo decides to stay behind IIRC), and with the idea that their goal is less about winning in the end than keeping their people, and hope, alive. Of course, staying risks everyone being wiped out, but it seems that Leia has just lost so much at this point (her son, her lover, her brother, the government she spent the first half of her life fighting to build) that she can't bear the thought of losing anyone else. Its probably the same reason why she didn't jump to hyper and abandon Poe's squadron when he disobeyed orders, and part of why she came down so hard on Poe for those losses.
IIRC there was a short scene after the Base was annihilated that showed three transports on the way to the Raddus and the furthest away was the one with Konnix aboard. To me it looked like the transports were close enough to reach the Raddus while Poe and Leia had their "abort mission" dialogue.

The problem with Leia is that X-Wings, A-Wings and the ShittyMcBombers have hyperdrives.
Leaving with the Raddus and the other ships would not have sacrificed these forces at all after the transports had landed.
It might even have forced Poe to follow them, and if not Poe at least the Bomber crews might have taken it as a "The Resistance is not in danger anymore. We leave now."
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-05-11 07:12pm

tezunegari wrote:
2018-05-11 07:06pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-05-11 06:28pm
Kojiro wrote:
2018-05-02 03:20pm

The most stunningly stupid thing here is that the FO apparently though that if they fired on the base, the Resistance would sit there for a full five minutes while they powered up again. I'm sure the calculations for a hyperspace jump have been done at this point in the evacuation. But then Leia is also an idiot for not leaving the moment the 'fleet killer' rocked up- she can't possibly have known they'd shoot the base first.
One thing I think we can agree on is that the FO's fleet tactics are worthless.

Part of that, I'd think, is down to Hux not being a space forces commander, "general" typically being an army (or star fighter commander) rank. Hux does seems to be a little more on the ball during the final ground battle, where he's confident enough to directly countermand Kylo Ren, and criticizes him for getting distracted by Luke.

But he's also, as Vymple said, a grandstander. He's used to having overwhelming firepower, likes to show it off, and is basically a frothing fanatic. And unlike Holdo, who the film does not intend to be a poor leader (whatever opinion one may have on the effectiveness of that twist), this is very clearly intentional with Hux- Snoke sneers at him to Kylo and humiliates him in front of his men, Poe basically trolls him, and the FO dreadnought commander pretty clearly regards his tactics as inept. He's pretty much a joke throughout the film, except for that one moment where he starts to reach for his gun to shoot an unconscious Kylo Ren.

As for Leia not leaving... that is questionable, yes. The only thing I can think is that Leia was still in the process of evacuating, and either couldn't go into hyper because transports were still docking, or simply refused to abandon her forces.

This would be in keeping with Leia's conversation with Holdo at the end (she basically says that she can't take losing anyone else when Holdo decides to stay behind IIRC), and with the idea that their goal is less about winning in the end than keeping their people, and hope, alive. Of course, staying risks everyone being wiped out, but it seems that Leia has just lost so much at this point (her son, her lover, her brother, the government she spent the first half of her life fighting to build) that she can't bear the thought of losing anyone else. Its probably the same reason why she didn't jump to hyper and abandon Poe's squadron when he disobeyed orders, and part of why she came down so hard on Poe for those losses.
IIRC there was a short scene after the Base was annihilated that showed three transports on the way to the Raddus and the furthest away was the one with Konnix aboard. To me it looked like the transports were close enough to reach the Raddus while Poe and Leia had their "abort mission" dialogue.
I'll have to check that scene once I get the DVD.
The problem with Leia is that X-Wings, A-Wings and the ShittyMcBombers have hyperdrives.
Leaving with the Raddus and the other ships would not have sacrificed these forces at all after the transports had landed.
It might even have forced Poe to follow them, and if not Poe at least the Bomber crews might have taken it as a "The Resistance is not in danger anymore. We leave now."
Damn it.

See, this all would work fine if the bombers didn't have hyper drives. Then Leia staying would be understandable, because she would be choosing not to abandon a squadron to their deaths. IIRC, its not stated one way or the other on-screen. But leave it to the EU/background material to double down on a plotting issue. :banghead:

So this basically leaves us with two options: "The transports hadn't had time to dock" (pure speculation I admit), or "Leia froze up".
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-05-11 07:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-05-11 06:28pm


One thing I think we can agree on is that the FO's fleet tactics are worthless.

Part of that, I'd think, is down to Hux not being a space forces commander, "general" typically being an army (or star fighter commander) rank. Hux does seems to be a little more on the ball during the final ground battle, where he's confident enough to directly countermand Kylo Ren, and criticizes him for getting distracted by Luke.

But he's also, as Vymple said, a grandstander. He's used to having overwhelming firepower, likes to show it off, and is basically a frothing fanatic. And unlike Holdo, who the film does not intend to be a poor leader (whatever opinion one may have on the effectiveness of that twist), this is very clearly intentional with Hux- Snoke sneers at him to Kylo and humiliates him in front of his men, Poe basically trolls him, and the FO dreadnought commander pretty clearly regards his tactics as inept. He's pretty much a joke throughout the film, except for that one moment where he starts to reach for his gun to shoot an unconscious Kylo Ren.
Makes me wonder how he got his position, considering his relative youth compared to the ages of the rest of the First Order. Family is the reason he's accepted and has such a high rank in the EU, correct?

Someone like that would only get through via nepotism or party loyalty, but there has to be a limit on how much that can get you before your record puts you in a place where you can't harm anything, as opposed to leading Snoke's military.
*Holdo, oddly enough, doesn't really seem to fit into this theme that I can see. We're given partial information to make us think she's a bad commander, and then she turns out to be a good one. That's about all there is to her. There's not much depth to her, nor much reason given for why she is the person that she is. We know very little about her past. The only thing to really humanize her is her conversation with Leia. I guess she's... a little impatient with Poe? But then, I never claimed that Holdo was an example of great or profound characterization- just that based on on-screen evidence, she's not a bad officer. Character-wise, she's not much more than a plot device/way for Poe to learn a lesson.

Hope the EU fleshes her out more.
Well, as witnessed, and as discussed here, she judges books by their covers(her first statement to Poe is how he's an idiotic flyboy) and gets into a feud with a subordinate officer within five minutes of meeting him while in a crisis, in front of the rest of the Resistance leadership. So I guess we could argue that her falling into the theme is her pettiness affecting her actions and consideration of the crew.
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