Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Ender » 2017-12-18 11:13am

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-18 10:59am
Alright, I'll cede that most evidence points towards hyperdrive being really fucking fast. Can we at least agree, however, that this level of mobility makes warfare exceedingly difficult on a galactic scale?
Why? It doesn't match the model you think it does, but it doesn't have any more problems than any previous FTL warfare model did.

"They can throw all their ships at one fight, instant reinforcements!". Yeah but then you can instantly respond and strike where they pulled them from. Speed of FTL comms means you can just be calling in ISD names to your command who match that against their intelligence database and strike there. And given the power required to fly across the galaxy and the logistics constraints on fuel they will either be weak when they get there, or coasting on fumes when they arrive back.

It makes warfare a calculation and siege, balancing your industrial production and supply chain against theirs. If anything it makes the military prominence of force users (who are guided by the divine to be at the right place at the right time) and the success of insurgencies (who have the initiative to start and withdraw from battle more than an occupying force) make much more sense.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2017-12-18 11:16am

Kojiro wrote:
2017-12-18 10:56am
Speaking of the dice, how did Kylo find them? I mean, you'd think Leia would hold onto them right? A last gift from Luke, intimately linked to Han (who only died like, 2-3 days ago)? You'd think she'd hold on to something like that.
Apparently Leia decided to leave them behind, probably as part of the whole "Let go of the past" theme. Which, when you think about it, is pretty cold-hearted since the symbolism behind objects such as that is usually "As long as you remember them, they are never truly gone."

The weird thing, though, is that the dice were all part of Luke's illusion, which bring up the question of...why? It's rather cruel to give Leia the token of her lost love as a symbol of hope, then, assuming she didn't discard it, take that away once he drops the illusion. Plus...did he focus on maintaining the projection of the dice even after Leia left them behind just so he could rub in the "Psyche! You just got played, sucka!" moment when they evaporate from Kylo's hand?

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Guardsman Bass » 2017-12-18 12:24pm

KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-18 10:59am
Alright, I'll cede that most evidence points towards hyperdrive being really fucking fast. Can we at least agree, however, that this level of mobility makes warfare exceedingly difficult on a galactic scale?
I think it makes warfare fascinating. Combatants can mass fleets rapidly and move them around really quickly, but as Ender pointed out that leaves their own planets exposed to rapid retaliatory attacks. Couple that with the powerful theater and planetary shields from the Original Trilogy, and you end up with warfare centered around fleet-on-fleet actions and long sieges that tie up manpower and logistics (with occasional ground attacks like on Hoth).

Incidentally, that explains why they developed the Death Star.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Me2005 » 2017-12-18 01:29pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:
2017-12-18 12:24pm
I think it makes warfare fascinating. Combatants can mass fleets rapidly and move them around really quickly, but as Ender pointed out that leaves their own planets exposed to rapid retaliatory attacks. Couple that with the powerful theater and planetary shields from the Original Trilogy, and you end up with warfare centered around fleet-on-fleet actions and long sieges that tie up manpower and logistics (with occasional ground attacks like on Hoth).
This also makes the whole plot of the movie extremely bothersome - Why didn't the FO call in reinforcements to cut off the retreating Resistance fleet? Within this move, it is clearly shown that other ships can be called up and jump in and out. It'd have been trivial for them to do the same.

For some reason, after seeing this movie I'm feeling hollow and numb. Not sure why.

Anyway, my thoughts; such as they are:

Good:
As much as I didn't like the direction TFA took or the universe it set up, I like that this movie took that story and ran with it. I also like that this movie wrecked a bunch of the things the other movie set up - I read some complaints about Snoke, and while I agree that he's go no backstory or purpose, this movie took him as a villain and just removed him. If I read it as a credit to the directors, it's because they wanted to get rid of the character to prevent him continuing into other films or being consequential at all. As a discredit, it's lazy elimination without explaining anything about him. The Resistance started out way too small to be really relevant against the FO which started out too big; now the FO is in charge and the resistance is basically whoever could fit on the Millennium Falcon. Poe's X-wing got blown up. Rey/Ren are diametrically opposed (though I don't like the why it's good that they are).

Bad:
I do not like the constant rehashing of the old films in new ways. We didn't need the salt-Hoth scenes, the Downton Abby-Bespin, rocky-island Dagobah or the long sub-light chase (MF in TESB). Especially when all those retellings were extremely contrived situations. Nor did I like how silly they made space combat - never before have blasters fired in space arced, and having them fire straight as they always have wouldn't have taken anything away from the plot or appearance of the film. Ships jumping in and out on a pinpoint and communications across the galaxy are shown to be possible, yet no one calls in reinforcements or properly locates themselves in the first place? Giant, bloated, slow, Resistance heavy-bombers make no sense in light of B- and Y-Wings they (and the rebellion) have used before (and, on reflection, why are they still using A- and X- wings if it's 30 years later and the neo-Empire got all new stuff?), though the points about their bombs 'dropping' didn't bother me (I figured the bombers had some kind of repulsor setup to drop them and the door had a screen we couldn't see). I still don't like the scale disparity between the Resistance and the FO, but at least since the film ran with it it is continuity. Hypertracking - so... if the FO should know the MF saved the resistance, the whole resistance is relying on Chewie's ability to outrun them without also running out of fuel?

Unclear but consequential:
It seems like they clearly defined space combat as never before in SW. The Resistance cruiser was faster (sublight) than the FO ships, and could thus stay out of effective range of their weapons (ok, they've got max range, maybe it's a energy falloff thing NBD). Fuel consumption sublight is a thing, and it is separate from hyperspace fuel as that cruiser jumped with minutes of sublight fuel remaining. Hyperspace ramming is a thing now, but I interpreted what happened not as the cruiser accelerating through the SSD, but rather re-entering space within it (Micro-jump to the space the SSD occupied). Why this tactic wasn't used against other high-value targets in the series (or even just earlier in the chase) when crew are such a valuable commodity I do not understand. Fighters are able to bypass shields (which we thought we knew but now we know), but being too far away from their mother ships is bad for survivability. Again, why in this case fighter survivability was even considered is beyond me - with 3 fighters wrecking the remaining cruiser easily, the FO should have just deployed the few thousand they likely had onboard and been done with it. The old Rebel base had planetary shields, and a wall that could resist the worm-superlaser pretty well. So they landed walkers because the planetary bombardment ship was blown up and the other ships couldn't have done the job, I guess.

All in all, very weird. It's telling a story, but it's like they should've just done a hard reboot. Someone else said; we spent all that time rooting for the Rebellion, just to see the fruits of that time wasted as total failure and nothing to show for it. And I haven't connected with the new characters yet because they're ridiculous superheroes with powers inexplicably beyond anything any character I knew ever did.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2017-12-18 02:12pm

Repeat viewing and the film and it just keeps throwing up more issues.

A) The "fleet killer" decided to shoot at the completely immobile base rather than take the shot at the rebel fleet evacuating. Movie would have ended right there. Sadly, this is a solid knock against the only First Order commander that seemed to actually have some brain.

B) Somehow Snookes ship was the one tracking the Rebel fleet even though it was not present to see them jump. Only logical conclusion is that one of the First Order Star Destroyers was tracking them and then transferred that to Snookes ship. I see no valid reason why Fin and Rose managed to pull the ultra specific information that only ONE of the FO ships would be tracking them at a time and they instantly assume it would be the biggest one that arrived last and was not even part of the initial engagement. It is sketchy enough that they somehow managed to jump to the conclusion it MUST be some sort of new technology rather than a traitor, bug or Force magic.

This is especially dauntingly stupid when the Rebels had multiple ships, so what was stopping them from scattering the escorts away ?
Later in the film they conclude the FO is after the big cruiser so those escorts really died for nothing.

C) Kylo Ren and 3 Escort Tie Fighters is apparently the ENTIRE fighter force sent out to engage the rebel fleet when they initially jump on top of them. Later, we see multiple fighters running patrols around the FO fleet even as it is still chasing the Rebels. Additionally, the dozen that engage on the Hoth Rip off.
Those 3 fighters manage to hammer the cruiser before being called away because "they cannot be covered"
This is the same film that has Poe maul a Dreadnaught on his own so with all of this it is more than reasonable to conclude the FO could have obliterated the entire Rebel fleet with fighters alone within the first 10 minutes of jumping in.

D) The FO literally jumps on top of the Rebel Fleet in weapons range but somehow the Rebels manage to pull away fast enough to get outside that range without getting lit up under a hail of fire. It is really silly that this entire film only shows the Supremacy actually firing and the rate of fire is abysmal for a ship that is gigantic. Even if you handwave the later as being 'long range' artillery cannons, the initial jump in would have had the Rebels being well within weapons range of the entire FO fleet.
The minimalism of the space engagements is simply mind boggling to the point they have ships doing nothing.

E) The Rebel medical frigate captain specifically mentions that all personnel have been evacuated to the cruiser before it fails and he dies. Apparently the Rebels had transport ships that could move fast enough to ferry personnel back and forth even as they are in the middle of a chase ?
Naturally, the FO does not shoot those transports down with the same pin-point accuracy they demonstrate against the later transports.
Naturally the captain of the frigate decides to needlessly die like a moron because auto-pilots are for wimps or someone needs to stay at the helm to keep the ship flying in a straight line.

F) If the Escorts were evacuated and fucked anyway, it seems like a much better option would be to have them jump to anywhere else in the galaxy in the hopes some of the FO chase after them. If the FO do not then you have a ship that might be picked up later.

G) Ray pulls the location of this chase out of nowhere and somehow the Millennium Falcon piloted by Chewie is able to jump across the galaxy straight at the FO fleet to drop off Ray.

H) TFA Luke leaves a convoluted puzzle map to guide people to him and then gets upset when Ray does just that. Luke then claims he went there to "die" - What the fuck did he leave a map to his location for then ?

I) Luke milking a space cow - I dont think I processed this scene properly when I first saw it because it is insanely creepy and pointless. The same goes for Luke jumping across a chasm just to spear a fish on a stupidly long pole. This film has so many of these scenes that are awkward and disjointed.

J) Fin and Rose. Should be dead. It is that simple.
Somehow the super cannon melts Fin's junker skiff but the rest of it is fine despite being in the growing power of the beam.
Rose crashes into Fin at high speed - That would have been fatal
Rose and Fin are literally in front of a tug pulling the siege cannon and one of the AT-ATs is shown looking directly at them.
Additionally, Fin manages to drag Rose all the way back to the base which would have been in full view of the entire advancing force that he somehow manages to outrun unmolested in a flat desert with no cover.
That is by far one of the most gigantic acts of bullshit in this film.

K) Snooke connected the minds of Ray and Ren... okay, so what was with Kylo wiping away water from his face as Ray was getting soaked in rain ?
Even the film cannot seem to decide what was actually going on with how things work.

L) Master Code Cracker - This entire sub-plot was an utter waste of time. Fin and Co. were specifically told to look for a specific person and after they escape they just seem to have forgot because they found someone that made no illusions of being a sketchy scumbag. Further, they happily ignore any common sense and allow the sketchy scumbag to find out about the rebel plan to evacuate to the planet. This goes against Poe as well for being a complete moron in giving that kind of information out freely.

M) Phasma - They turned her into a complete joke in the first film and did so again in this. For a character that was hyped up beyond belief as somehow being a new Boba Fett she has managed to skip being a 'badass' to being a straight laughing stock. Even though she fell into the fiery chasm of doom which should be fatal, I have a sinking feeling she will return again because how else could this character be even more tedious.

N) Luke - Mark Hamil did a good job and he is easily the best part of this film but it is simply crushed under the weight of how poorly contrived the entire plot of this film is. Going from projecting across the galaxy and giving Leia fake dice to "stalling" to give the rebels time.
If Luke knew about the exit then why did he not tell them ?
Luke did not mention he was projecting to the rebels so they have to figure out how he got into the base by themselves in a convoluted way of figuring out another exit existed ?
If Luke did not know another exit was there, the stalling was really pointless.

As far as show downs go, it was a significant let down and it would have been better to have Luke physically be there rather than have a cheap cop out Luke giving the "Strike me down" motif followed by Luke dying anyway. The result is the same.

O) First Order - Overall, the new trilogy is seriously failing at conveying any decent narrative context.
This film is barely days after the events of TFA and the opening crawl claims the First Order will seize military control of the entire galaxy within weeks. However, this film is pretty heavy on the idea the First Order is already in control of the galaxy and seems to completely gloss over the gigantic shift in depiction from the first film.

The FO somehow has enough military power that it is going to seize "military control" over the galaxy - If they are invading, that is really kinda silly. This film is seriously implying the FO can take on the ENTIRE galaxy and no one is going to resist despite the FO literally committing the largest atrocity since the Death Star.
The Republic had every last ounce of its organisation located on the planets it hit without a single outpost, base or assets elsewhere...

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Ender » 2017-12-18 02:57pm

Me2005 wrote:
2017-12-18 01:29pm
This also makes the whole plot of the movie extremely bothersome - Why didn't the FO call in reinforcements to cut off the retreating Resistance fleet? Within this move, it is clearly shown that other ships can be called up and jump in and out. It'd have been trivial for them to do the same.
Because a big part of the theme of this new trilogy is that the FO is a bunch of entitled idiot posers, insecure and reckless as hell who make dumb decisions.

Tarkin, he'd calculate out exactly how many genocides he would need to commit by brunch to enforce his will, and he'd do it while debating "mimosa or bloody Mary?". Vader conquered the galaxy, first as Anakin and then mopping up as the man in black. Palpatine toppled a regime older than human civilization and got them to erect a throne for him.

Hux would shit his pants if you slapped him. Kylo is literally a Vader wanna be. Snoke lists crushed velvet slippers and manipulating an angsty teen as his great accomplishments.

I mean good, go back to the big speech in TFA, Hux is near at the point of tears he is so worked up and scared, and then he lashes out like a fucking school shooter and billions die.

These aren't cold calculating frightening men. These are kids playing with their father's tools and because they got handed this stuff that they dream they are entitled to, instead of earning it, they freak the fuck out and do stupid shit. They are making mistakes, but those aren't plot holes, they are fucking up because they are fuckups.

I continue to hold that Gleeson and Driver are what make these decent films because their performances in selling that theme are so compelling.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Simon_Jester » 2017-12-18 03:13pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
2017-12-18 02:12pm
H) TFA Luke leaves a convoluted puzzle map to guide people to him and then gets upset when Ray does just that. Luke then claims he went there to "die" - What the fuck did he leave a map to his location for then ?
Well, he clearly didn't eat his own lightsaber or anything, so insofar as he went off to a remote place to "die," it was clearly in the sense of "die of old age as an old hermit," not "die right the hell now." He may well have had enough sense of responsibility to want to make it possible for a few of the most important people in his life to find him, but still make it difficult enough that they wouldn't try unless it was a matter of galaxy-shaking importance... And be grumpy and old enough to kvetch about being dragged out of retirement when someone actually does (to his surprise) try to enlist him.
O) First Order - Overall, the new trilogy is seriously failing at conveying any decent narrative context.
This film is barely days after the events of TFA and the opening crawl claims the First Order will seize military control of the entire galaxy within weeks. However, this film is pretty heavy on the idea the First Order is already in control of the galaxy and seems to completely gloss over the gigantic shift in depiction from the first film.

The FO somehow has enough military power that it is going to seize "military control" over the galaxy - If they are invading, that is really kinda silly. This film is seriously implying the FO can take on the ENTIRE galaxy and no one is going to resist despite the FO literally committing the largest atrocity since the Death Star.

The Republic had every last ounce of its organisation located on the planets it hit without a single outpost, base or assets elsewhere...
To be fair, if the New Republic of the new films is anything like the New Republic of the old EU, there may be a lot of uncoordinated flailing and fuckups going on with the capital blown up.

Wasn't there a notion that the Resistance/First Order conflict was a proxy war between the New Republic and various remnant imperial loyalist states? If that were true, it would explain things- because if the balance of power tipped far enough, suddenly the New Republic is overwhelmed by imperial loyalist states whose collective armed force is heavily represented by the First Order.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2017-12-18 03:25pm

Simon_Jester wrote:
2017-12-18 03:13pm
Wasn't there a notion that the Resistance/First Order conflict was a proxy war between the New Republic and various remnant imperial loyalist states? If that were true, it would explain things- because if the balance of power tipped far enough, suddenly the New Republic is overwhelmed by imperial loyalist states whose collective armed force is heavily represented by the First Order.
Why not simply give it to the audience with some lines explaining why the Republic is so easily decapitated? Because otherwise, it makes the entire galaxy feels minimalistic.

How on earth did Disney make the GFFA feels smaller than what we got in the old Legends EU is kinda beyond belief. At least with the OT, we get the sense that the empire was stretched all over the galaxy trying to hunt down the rebels.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Ace Pace » 2017-12-18 04:36pm

ray245 wrote:
2017-12-18 03:25pm
At least with the OT, we get the sense that the empire was stretched all over the galaxy trying to hunt down the rebels.
How so?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Guardsman Bass » 2017-12-18 04:50pm

Me2005 wrote:This also makes the whole plot of the movie extremely bothersome - Why didn't the FO call in reinforcements to cut off the retreating Resistance fleet? Within this move, it is clearly shown that other ships can be called up and jump in and out. It'd have been trivial for them to do the same.
I thought so, too, but now I think it's all Hux. He wants the credit for wiping out the remaining rebels, rather than letting a back-up fleet potentially get it (and Snoke lets him because he figures the rebels are doomed anyways as long as they can be tracked through hyperspace). He's a pompous, arrogant, scenery-chewing monster (and thus fantastic to watch).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-12-18 05:13pm

I have a thought that a lot of the weirdness/oddness/poor decisions of bad guys in TFA and TLJ make more sense when you consider the above point: Hux, Ren, perhaps even Snoke are wannabe bad guys. They are not well-trained and experienced officers like the Empire had (many of whose commanders served in the Clone Wars so have at least some experience of galactic-scale conflict), nor are they natural leaders like Leia, brilliant pilots like Poe, or living legends like Luke.

They're basically slightly grown up angsty teens raised on the glories of their dead fathers and now have all the fancy toys to play with after their father died in an unfortunate boating accident. Combine that with a massive sense of entitlement and a belief they can do no wrong...

Hell, the First Order are what you get when you combine "affluenza" with big spaceships and Force powers. It nicely answers the question of "why are they doing dumb things?" Because they genuinely don't know any better. The only reason they got as dangerous as they were, besides the collection of fancy military tech, was because everyone else in the galaxy was tired of a generation of war and tyranny and wanted peace.

In fact, there might be an interesting comparison to make between the New Republic vs the First Order and the UK vs Nazi Germany in the 30's, complete with appeasement, lack of military preparedness and the lone dissenting voice of Leia/Churchill.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Ender » 2017-12-18 05:18pm

Ace Pace wrote:
2017-12-18 04:36pm
ray245 wrote:
2017-12-18 03:25pm
At least with the OT, we get the sense that the empire was stretched all over the galaxy trying to hunt down the rebels.
How so?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-18 05:23pm

Ender wrote:
2017-12-18 05:18pm
Ace Pace wrote:
2017-12-18 04:36pm
ray245 wrote:
2017-12-18 03:25pm
At least with the OT, we get the sense that the empire was stretched all over the galaxy trying to hunt down the rebels.
How so?
"We know the weapon systems of this Death Star are not yet operational. With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected."
This plus the opening crawl and probe droid sequence at the start of ESB.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 05:38pm

If it's now possible for a small 3 km long cruiser that's a converted pleasure liner (the Raddas) to one-shot cripple a 60 km wide x 18 km long doom-naut with hyperspace ramming, why didn't the Rebellion posit equipping those old hammerhead ramming ships from Rogue One, or even Correllian Corvettes with droid crews and ramming them into the Death Star to defeat it?

Why would the Death star even be needed if you could just ram a ship into a planet?

While it gave Admiral Dressed-for-Dinner-Party a heroic demise, it fucked up a lot of previous plot points in SW.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2017-12-18 05:43pm

Ender wrote:
2017-12-18 09:55am
Oh come on, Luke's character was absolutely assassinated here, and Hamill is completely right to be pissed about Johnson's choices for the character.
Hamill's not 'pissed' at anything - people have been spreading this bullshit neo-mythology that Hamill is somehow unhappy with Johnson's choices - complete with weird Kremlinology-eseque "look at his face in this interview", for a few days now, and its truly bizarre. Hamill has been very clear on what he felt about Johnson's choices. He completely disagreed until he didn't. He's not 'pissed' at all.
It is a complete break from the OT and throws not only Luke's growth out the window, but also annihilates the entire point of the series and it's theme of the lamb's victory.
IMO Luke's growth in the OT had absolutely nothing to do with precluding him from being damaged by a failure. Why does Luke's character, in order to have value, need to be one where he doesn't make any major mistakes?
MKSheppard wrote:
2017-12-18 05:38pm
If it's now possible for a small 3 km long cruiser that's a converted pleasure liner (the Raddas) to one-shot cripple a 60 km wide x 18 km long doom-naut with hyperspace ramming, why didn't the Rebellion posit equipping those old hammerhead ramming ships from Rogue One, or even Correllian Corvettes with droid crews and ramming them into the Death Star to defeat it?

Why would the Death star even be needed if you could just ram a ship into a planet?

While it gave Admiral Dressed-for-Dinner-Party a heroic demise, it fucked up a lot of previous plot points in SW.
Raddus is a decommissioned New Republic warship obtained by the Resistance, not a converted pleasure-liner.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark » 2017-12-18 05:45pm

Now that we're solidly into the detail phase of the discussion:

I can't have been the only one who found the tracking thing odd, not because the attempted solution was derived within a few sentences of dialogue, but because a better answer to 'How is the First Order tracking us' was already in the story:

Leia was constantly broadcasting the fleet's position to Rey.

If that was instead how the First Order was tracking the Resistance, that delivers an interesting dilemma. If they destroy the beacon, the Resistance can escape, but they also can't expect help from Rey and Luke Skywalker.

They'd need a new subplot to give Poe/Finn something to do, but I don't think anyone actually thinks the casino subplot was beneficial to the story.
Last edited by GuppyShark on 2017-12-18 05:46pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 05:46pm

Ender wrote:
2017-12-18 02:57pm
Because a big part of the theme of this new trilogy is that the FO is a bunch of entitled idiot posers, insecure and reckless as hell who make dumb decisions.
And this is why I can't really enjoy the new trilogy's bad guys. Adam Driver got a lot of new backstory and lines to work with, but he can only do so much with the pile of shit he's been handed so far.

General Hux...is not credible.

I mean, look at Rogue One's Imperials:
KRENNIC: All Imperial forces, have been evacuated, and I stand ready to destroy the entire moon.

TARKIN: That won't be necessary. We need a statement, not a manifesto. The Holy City will be enough for the day.

KRENNIC: Target Jedha City, prepare single reactor ignition.

OFFICER: Sir, we're in position, ready to...

KRENNIC: Fire!

OFFICER: Commence primary ignition.
versus General Hux in TFA:
Today is the end of the Republic!

The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder!

At this very moment, in a system far from here the New Republic LIES to the GALAXY while secretly supporting the treachery of the loathsome Resistance.

This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand, will bring an end to the Senate!

To their cherished fleet!

All remaining systems will bow to the First Order!

And will remember this...

....as the last day of the Republic!
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Me2005 » 2017-12-18 05:48pm

Ender wrote:
2017-12-18 02:57pm
Because a big part of the theme of this new trilogy is that the FO is a bunch of entitled idiot posers, insecure and reckless as hell who make dumb decisions.
...
These aren't cold calculating frightening men. These are kids playing with their father's tools and because they got handed this stuff that they dream they are entitled to, instead of earning it, they freak the fuck out and do stupid shit. They are making mistakes, but those aren't plot holes, they are fucking up because they are fuckups.
If this were the case, fine, but the movies do a poor job supporting that. Or any conclusion really. If they're wannabe bad guys, where and how did they get all the stuff? Wannabe bad guys don't run uprisings successfully. And it's 30+ years after the Empire was defeated, so the help can't be just remnants of that that aren't also really powerful in their own right.

Just in this tread, I've seen a half-dozen better scenarios for how these movies could have played nicer with the OT.

Shoot, even just rewriting the opening crawl (and maybe changing some lines, I've only seen TFA and TLJ the once each) to say something like "The once-powerful New Republic is struggling against the resurrected remnants of the old Empire; reorganized as the First Order, and have been gathering what little is left of their fleets at XYZ planets..."

Just that, just a textural change makes the whole story make way more sense. We went from what we knew to be a galaxy-spanning Empire, to a New Republic that is supposed to be running the show but is of unknown quality, to this First Order that seems to just be Empire 2.0. If these guys are bumbling fools running a machine they don't understand, fine; but set that up to be true. If they're brilliant tacticians making use of what little they're given to make massive strokes against an enemy that should be able to overwhelm them, fine, but back it up with the actual depicted events. If they've inherited all this from secret plot by the long-dead emperor involving penny stocks and interest earnings, show me that. Just... make the story make sense with the universe we know and the information we're given.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 06:27pm

Vympel wrote:
2017-12-18 05:43pm
Raddus is a decommissioned New Republic warship obtained by the Resistance, not a converted pleasure-liner.
Appears the original name for Raddus was Dawn of Tranquility in the NR Navy, then renamed Raddus by the "resistance"; which gives some confusion.
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"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 06:34pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2017-12-18 05:13pm
I have a thought that a lot of the weirdness/oddness/poor decisions of bad guys in TFA and TLJ make more sense when you consider the above point: Hux, Ren, perhaps even Snoke are wannabe bad guys. They are not well-trained and experienced officers like the Empire had (many of whose commanders served in the Clone Wars so have at least some experience of galactic-scale conflict)
The problem is the First Order has a lot of older guys who are just as stupid.

Image

Does this guy look like he's callow and inexperienced? The actor playing him is 52~.

That means he was in his 20s during the events of ROTJ, and had some of the last combat experience in the Galactic Civil War.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 06:41pm

Also, did nobody tell the LFL head writer shed that the only reason we had a ground battle in Empire was because Vader was obsessed with Luke after finding out Luke was his son.

You can't get Luke if you bombard Hoth into slag on the part of the planet not protected by a theater shield, cooking the rebels in their base alive indirectly. Plus, you will not be definitely sure Luke is dead/alive if you do the whole BDZ thing -- because what's stopping you otherwise? Hoth is a nothing planet; a statistic in some database that would be ideal for a live fire exercise.

That's the official reason. The random EU reason (both new and old) would be that Vader also saw a bonus chance to one-up his rivals in the Imperial hierarchy by capturing a good portion of the core rebel leadership -- if you don't get general rieekan, you can still get his ops lieutenant or radioman who can tell you much about how the rebellion is organized and roll up other groups....

....by contrast, in TLJ Kylo explicitly says "no survivors".

If you are doing that, why even land?
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-12-18 06:42pm

And he pointed out, several times, that the orders of Hux were poorly thought out. But given that the FO appears to be even more fascist/tyrannical/dictatorial than the Empire was, didn't go against his superior's orders.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by MKSheppard » 2017-12-18 06:50pm

The thing really that irritates me the most about TLJ is how tons of people in-universe were so stupid.

"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" -- Ellen Ripley.

Image

A game from 1993 with a cheesy cut scene using a shot straight from ESB has more tactical sense than The First Order -- you get your screening craft out to prevent precisely what Poe Dameron does -- and there's a reason you have smaller craft other than SuperDoomShip™ and SuperDoomShipEvenBiggening™, so that you can issue an order like:

"Detach our screening ships from the main body for independent action to run down the rebel scum™"

Or hell, I don't know, call someone else up on the HoloNet and have a squadron of ships drop out of hyperspace in front of the fleeing rebels, given the speed boost hyperdrives have apparently gotten in TLJ?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2017-12-18 06:55pm

Ace Pace wrote:
2017-12-18 04:36pm
ray245 wrote:
2017-12-18 03:25pm
At least with the OT, we get the sense that the empire was stretched all over the galaxy trying to hunt down the rebels.
How so?
The line said by Mon Mothma? "The Imperial fleet spread throughout the Galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it( DS II) is relatively unprotected."

Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Me2005 » 2017-12-18 07:04pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2017-12-18 06:41pm
Also, did nobody tell the LFL head writer shed that the only reason we had a ground battle in Empire was because Vader was obsessed with Luke after finding out Luke was his son.

You can't get Luke if you bombard Hoth into slag on the part of the planet not protected by a theater shield, cooking the rebels in their base alive indirectly. Plus, you will not be definitely sure Luke is dead/alive if you do the whole BDZ thing -- because what's stopping you otherwise? Hoth is a nothing planet; a statistic in some database that would be ideal for a live fire exercise.

....by contrast, in TLJ Kylo explicitly says "no survivors".

If you are doing that, why even land?
In his defense, someone (Finn?) did say they'd gotten the planetary/base shields up (and that whatever power was left *after that* would go to the message they wanted to send).

Also, the BDZ thing is only ever in EU stuff AFAIK, so that's all conjecture and non-cannon at this point. For all we know now, an ISD could *not* do a BDZ at all and they landed because that was the best and only option when shields are up. The big planetary bombardment ship that *would have done that* got blown up in the first scenes.

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