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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 11:21am
by streetad
The stuff with Poe is a bit like that time in ASoIaF where Robb Stark doesn't tell any of his subordinates his battle plan, then flips his lid when one of them does something entirely predictable and in character which inadvertently ruins said plan. Except that time the whole purpose was to illustrate his inexperience at managing his people.

Poe appears to be a known Maverick With A Hero Complex Who Doesn't Play By Your Rules; and one who enjoys the respect of a lot of the other members of the Resistance. I mean sure, he is in a military of sorts and should be following the directives of his superior; but if she'd at least hinted there was a plan other than 'sit here and wait to die' he might not have done what he did.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 12:48pm
by Eternal_Freedom
I saw this this afternoon. I enjoyed it, not as much as I enjoyed Rogue One but still good. The technical bits...eh, I can forgive weirdness like that in the name of a compelling story/characters (like how I overlook the weirdness of Space: 1999, Thunderbirds or Doctor Who).

I will point out that the "ships lose fuel and immediately start slowing" is not what's happening. Their engines shut down, so they aren't still accelerating like the cruiser, which mean the pursuing ships can catch up. Because the FO ships and the cruiser are apparently accelerating at the same rate, it looks like the light ships lose power and slow, but that's just a visual thing.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 01:13pm
by Terralthra
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 06:50am
Terralthra wrote:
2017-12-16 11:16pm
The dice were hanging in the Falcon's cockpit since ANH. They were never pointed out as super important, but they were absolutely there all along.

Also, I don't understand the complaints about the gravity bombs "in space". They were over a planet, remember, not in deep space, and under thrust the whole time, not orbiting stably. Yes, if you are over a planet under thrust, and you drop something, it will in fact fall toward the planet. That's how gravity works.
The ship will drop towards the planet at the same rate toward as the things on it.

In orbit there is microgravity not because the space station/capsule is completely away from all planets, but because everything aboard is falling toward the planet at the same rate, this is why we call it freefall.
That's if the bombers were in orbit, which they aren't. They're over a planet, but they aren't orbiting the planet. The physics of objects released from such a craft are essentially identical to those governing bombs falling out of a bomber at any altitude. All that is necessary is that some of the Resistance bombers' thrust be directed downward to counteract the gravity of the planet. On a B-52, that's the lift from the wing. On a Resistance bomber, it could just be some vectored thrust from the main engines.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 01:55pm
by GuppyShark
I think the idea is that the bombs were propelled by the artificial gravity in the bomb bay. Planetary gravity should be too weak at that altitude to be meaningful.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 02:10pm
by ray245
Apparently, they worked like magnets.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 02:11pm
by Terralthra
I don't think you've done any sort of math to back that assertion about the strength of planetary gravity. Assuming an Earth-like planet, the gravitational force at 2,000 km above the surface is still ~60% of the force at the surface. Earth's moon orbits at nearly 400,000 km, and is still quite securely bound gravitationally to Earth.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 02:19pm
by GuppyShark
You're right, I haven't done the math. The use case for a space weapons system that relies on planetary gravity against targets directly beneath it seems rather narrow. If the bombs were being mag/grav forced out of the bomb bay then at least they are projectile weapons.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 02:52pm
by Eternal_Freedom
The thought occurs that maybe they were designed as ground-support craft that Poe repurposed for his hairbrained scheme.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 04:09pm
by CetaMan
As debatably stupid as the bomb deployment is, perhaps they are purely explosives. They forgo any propulsion to have the maximum destructive yield per volume, and rely on the superfortress analog to throw them into the target with magnetic or gravitic stuff.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 05:46pm
by Mr Bean
Saw the movie, you can very much chop it into 5-10 minutes scenes and say "This is horrible" and "This is amazing". Go down farther to 30 second clips and you have a great movie.

Watch the entire thing you get something that you will enjoy but something that is... kinda terrible in places. So I enjoy the parts I enjoyed but man the parts were terrible.

That said Chewbacca once again A-list actor here.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:03pm
by eMeM
Okay, hyperspace is really fast.

Finn's side quest was literally on the other side of the Galaxy from the main plot:
Image

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:11pm
by KraytKing
Mother fuckers. I guarantee no one thought that through.


I guess it does give Star Wars a conclusive advantage in the versus debate, whether they get biggatons, gigatons, or kilotons.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:17pm
by The Romulan Republic
Eh, fairly casual pan-galactic travel was already well-established in canon. Nothing new here.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:19pm
by eMeM
But why would they put that there, nothing in the movie requires the remote location, quite the opposite. Back in the day Geonosis, Tatooine and Naboo ended so close to each other for the plot to make sense, are they putting planets on the map randomly now?

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:22pm
by KraytKing
No, before it took weeks to cross the galaxy. Now it takes hours. This is a major change. First Order reinforcements could have come from anywhere in the galaxy. Starfighters are even more capital ship killers simply because they can operate out of bases fucking anywhere. This makes the "stateless" tactic uncombatable. It has fucked everything up.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 07:48pm
by NecronLord
KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 07:22pm
No, before it took weeks to cross the galaxy. Now it takes hours. This is a major change. First Order reinforcements could have come from anywhere in the galaxy. Starfighters are even more capital ship killers simply because they can operate out of bases fucking anywhere. This makes the "stateless" tactic uncombatable. It has fucked everything up.
You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
Terralthra wrote:
2017-12-17 01:13pm
That's if the bombers were in orbit, which they aren't. They're over a planet, but they aren't orbiting the planet. The physics of objects released from such a craft are essentially identical to those governing bombs falling out of a bomber at any altitude. All that is necessary is that some of the Resistance bombers' thrust be directed downward to counteract the gravity of the planet. On a B-52, that's the lift from the wing. On a Resistance bomber, it could just be some vectored thrust from the main engines.
Image

Except the ships were boosting up from the planet with it behind them, so their momentum would at the very least keep the bombs traveling upward toward the apogee of their ballistic arc (assuming the ships hadn't achieved an orbital velocity) which would result in the bombs... continuing in roughly the same direction of travel as the ship.

The momentum they'd used to thrust away from D'qar doesn't go away. While yes, the bomber will continue to accelerate after the bombs leave it, they will both be traveling upward relative to D'qar still until the bombs hit the apogee of whatever ballistic arc they're on. They need to be spring-loaded, essentially.

D'qar is behind them, not below them.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:00pm
by Rhadamantus
eMeM wrote:
2017-12-17 07:03pm
Okay, hyperspace is really fast.

Finn's side quest was literally on the other side of the Galaxy from the main plot:
Image
And clearly the film creators fucked up their math. They state they're 4 parsecs away about 10 minutes before they drop out, which would indicate a hyperspace speed of 2.5 million. That would imply their trip took two weeks (which would make sense of the relativistic issues, but probably not). And that wasn't even that difficult to fucking fix. Just say 400 parsecs instead, none of the audience members would complain, and you'd have remotely correct numbers.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:03pm
by NecronLord
Or ships decelerate for their final approach before coming out of hyperspace.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:07pm
by Nephtys
If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:13pm
by NecronLord
Nephtys wrote:
2017-12-17 08:07pm
If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.
This is of course, correct.

The aesthetic choices made by the content-creators however, are deliberately evocative of free-fall bombs.

This is why it has come up in the conversations about the film that I have seen on this board, on other boards, on chat channels, and in real-life even with nongeeks. Design matters to build suspension of disbelief, a storytelling tool; I find that making things look incongruous makes them look laughable.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:15pm
by KraytKing
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 07:48pm

You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.

Anyway, Roleplaying Game, canon during time period "always", put the travel time at weeks or days between major worlds.

Too old? ICS gave the ARC-170 five days supplies for a maximum range of five thousand light years. At class 1.5 hyperdrive, mind you. For a space superiority fighter, that's a lot of wasted space if it could only be in hyperspace for an hour or two.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:19pm
by ray245
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 08:13pm
Nephtys wrote:
2017-12-17 08:07pm
If we're still on the subject of mysterious black space orb bombs, this is a universe with repulsor technology. It's entirely possible those bombs were self-propelled by reactionless means. You can literally come up with any answer. They don't seem any less self-propelled than 90 degree turning photon torpedos are.
This is of course, correct.

The aesthetic choices made by the content-creators however, are deliberately evocative of free-fall bombs.

This is why it has come up in the conversations about the film that I have seen on this board, on other boards, on chat channels, and in real-life even with nongeeks. Design matters to build suspension of disbelief, a storytelling tool; I find that making things look incongruous makes them look laughable.
I think it's important to strike some balance between harking back to WW2 films and actually taking some physics into account. I'm not sure if the new directors got the memo. I feel like the "rule of cool" has been taken to some extreme by the younger director.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:34pm
by NecronLord
KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 08:15pm
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.
No.


Vader turns around, and Padme's ship is shown coming in to land on the screen behind him. At that point, Palpatine is in his office. They have just conversed real time, meaning that neither message was pre-recorded.

Swords are drawn on the platform outside, then that fight is intercut with Yoda vs Palpatine, definitively establishing that they are both simultaneous events.
Anyway, Roleplaying Game, canon during time period "always", put the travel time at weeks or days between major worlds.

Too old? ICS gave the ARC-170 five days supplies for a maximum range of five thousand light years. At class 1.5 hyperdrive, mind you. For a space superiority fighter, that's a lot of wasted space if it could only be in hyperspace for an hour or two.
Your sources aren't canon, mine are. That said, should you be interested the ICS gives Palpatine's shuttle a limited range. I asked Curtis about that around the time it was published and he mentioned that he believes Palpatine boarded an offscreen capital ship to go to Mustafar.

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:36pm
by Ender
KraytKing wrote:
2017-12-17 08:15pm
NecronLord wrote:
2017-12-17 07:48pm

You think Anakin/Vader spent 'weeks' on Mustafar ("On the outer rim") after being set on fire while Palpatine flew to rescue him from Coruscant? It's always been hours.

A new canon book "A New Hope: The Princess, the Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy" also reconfirms that the Ep IV trip from Tatooine to Alderaan is 'a few hours.'
No, I think Sidious, who was prescient, came to Mustafar early and waited for Kenobi to leave.
Anakin's body was still smoking when they arrive back on Coruscant though.

And in ANH the Death Star went from Alderaan to Yavin 4 inside a day, Vader remarks "this will be away long remembered, if has seen the death if Kenobi, now it will see the end of the rebellion"

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Posted: 2017-12-17 08:41pm
by Scottish Ninja
Can I just remind everyone that we first saw "freefall" space bombs back in Empire?