Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-03-13 09:37pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-13 09:35pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 04:57pm
Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
No, but it could easily be an appointed one in a group like the Resistance.

Ackbar was popular for his past work, and making him an admiral might get a few more recruits or something.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-14 12:00am

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-13 09:35pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 04:57pm
Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
Compared to Poe and Holdo, a senile Mon Calamari was the best Leia could get? :P
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-14 11:11am

Mon Cals could have an average lifespan of centuries for all we know.

Speaking of which, the new issue of the comic series is finally showing us how Leia and Ackbar managed to bring the Mon Cals into the rebellion after TESB. It's an interesting read so far.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-03-14 01:56pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 09:37pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-13 09:35pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 04:57pm
Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
No, but it could easily be an appointed one in a group like the Resistance.

Ackbar was popular for his past work, and making him an admiral might get a few more recruits or something.
Ackbar is quite successful as an admiral in the Aftermath series. They wanted to make a cameo, space the cameo and be done with it. But people noticed so they had to fix it in the book, and had no better idea than to make him senile.

Can't understand why people defend so hard this movie, when they couldn't handle even a cameo right.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-14 02:12pm

I may said it before but it really baffles me that Ackbar and Nein Numb are Ackbar and Nein Numb the same characters not just a random MonCalamari and Sullustian.

In fact them and Chewie seem to be the only original Trilogy aliens in the ST. That bugs me. The prequels had a nice balance of new and old species.

Same thing in old Trek barely any of the history used at all.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-14 07:09pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 09:37pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-13 09:35pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 04:57pm
Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
No, but it could easily be an appointed one in a group like the Resistance.

Ackbar was popular for his past work, and making him an admiral might get a few more recruits or something.
That would be my guess, yes.

But then, I've always felt that Ackbar was overrated, and that the EU hyped him beyond what his film performance justified.

If you watch his on-screen performance at Endor, he comes off as basically competent, by-the-book, with a slight tendency towards indecisiveness and timidity.

The Clone Wars gave him a role as a Mon Calimiari general in the Clone Wars. But that just makes it more confusing, because while he performed fine as a general, to my recollections, and certainly proved himself loyal and courageous, the point remains that he was a general, fighting on a planetary surface (or, rather, underwater), not an admiral.

My guess is that he was a fish out of water (pun absolutely intended) as an admiral, who got the post because the Rebels needed Mon Cal support, and Ackbar was a hero of his people for his past services in the Clone Wars. He was good enough to be competent as an admiral under most circumstances, but was actually more suited to ground-side command.

Similar deal as with Daala, actually- a supposedly capable general, who was misplaced by putting her in command of capital ships.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by amigocabal » 2018-03-14 11:35pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-14 07:09pm
Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 09:37pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-13 09:35pm

Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
No, but it could easily be an appointed one in a group like the Resistance.

Ackbar was popular for his past work, and making him an admiral might get a few more recruits or something.
That would be my guess, yes.

But then, I've always felt that Ackbar was overrated, and that the EU hyped him beyond what his film performance justified.

If you watch his on-screen performance at Endor, he comes off as basically competent, by-the-book, with a slight tendency towards indecisiveness and timidity.

The Clone Wars gave him a role as a Mon Calimiari general in the Clone Wars. But that just makes it more confusing, because while he performed fine as a general, to my recollections, and certainly proved himself loyal and courageous, the point remains that he was a general, fighting on a planetary surface (or, rather, underwater), not an admiral.

My guess is that he was a fish out of water (pun absolutely intended) as an admiral, who got the post because the Rebels needed Mon Cal support, and Ackbar was a hero of his people for his past services in the Clone Wars. He was good enough to be competent as an admiral under most circumstances, but was actually more suited to ground-side command.

Similar deal as with Daala, actually- a supposedly capable general, who was misplaced by putting her in command of capital ships.
I am guessing that Acjkbar had a very competent staff assisting him.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 » 2018-03-15 08:48am

I mean, in RotJ, somehow the rebels beat the Imperial fleet too!

Plus it's like, at that point they have one admiral, who gets all the experience?

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-16 03:23pm

Q99 wrote:
2018-03-15 08:48am
I mean, in RotJ, somehow the rebels beat the Imperial fleet too!

Plus it's like, at that point they have one admiral, who gets all the experience?
There was Admiral Raddus, but he died as Scarif, presumably (or in an Imperial prison, afterwards).

Hmm, I wonder if that's part of the reason Ackbar got the post. The previous admiral was a Mon Calimari, and died a hero, so maybe there was political pressure to satisfy the Mon Calimari by putting another of their peoples' heroes in as Raddus's successor? Though I guess this would depend on when exactly Ackbar got the admiral post.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-03-16 06:23pm

Realistically though I don't see a particular reason to have a rigid division between space Admiral and land General in an universe with cheap space travel like Wars. When you can go from ground to orbit and beyond in literally minutes, it could mean an improvement in efficiency to have the number of top commanders in your military be fewer multi-taskers, particularly in a smaller force like the Alliance/Resistance.

After all, even in the Clone Wars era the Jedi routinely commanded both space combat and ground combat. Is it that farfetched that an officer who starts out as a groundside General may be cross-trained in basic space combat and gain experience in space fighting over time, when the two can be so closely linked in Wars?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-16 06:30pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-03-16 06:23pm
Realistically though I don't see a particular reason to have a rigid division between space Admiral and land General in an universe with cheap space travel like Wars. When you can go from ground to orbit and beyond in literally minutes, it could mean an improvement in efficiency to have the number of top commanders in your military be fewer multi-taskers, particularly in a smaller force like the Alliance/Resistance.

After all, even in the Clone Wars era the Jedi routinely commanded both space combat and ground combat. Is it that farfetched that an officer who starts out as a groundside General may be cross-trained in basic space combat and gain experience in space fighting over time, when the two can be so closely linked in Wars?
Possibly, but space combat and fighting on the ground are two extremely different environments, where different tactics and technologies come into play.

Of course, given the greater scope of space combat, and the advantages conferred by orbital superiority, its tempting to think that the big picture strategic command roles should be held by admirals, with the ground forces being merely an extension of the space forces.

But on the tactical level, at least, I think you need different people with different training and experiences and skillsets for those roles.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-03-16 06:55pm

Tactically, arguably that's what you have officers for, no? Your Captains and such, commanding troops or ships closer to the front lines?

Again, perhaps this is more of a thing in a smaller force like the Alliance, where they don't have nearly as large of a 'General Staff' to utilize. Certainly in a large force like the Empire or the Old Republic, there could be more specialized higher-level commanders.

At least the Clone Wars example of Jedi multi-tasking seemed applicable to me, but I'll cheerfully admit it was a mostly a spitball...
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-16 08:32pm

Well, yes- though I don't think that the Jedi were exactly ideal material for Generalship either. Neither their training, their philosophy, nor their likely experience made them suited to the post. Jedi were a weird combination of special forces and ambassadors, pretty much. They were simply used because the Republic lacked an existing military command structure, and because it put them in positions where the clones could easily turn on them when Palpatine gave the order.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-17 08:05am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-16 03:23pm
Hmm, I wonder if that's part of the reason Ackbar got the post. The previous admiral was a Mon Calimari, and died a hero, so maybe there was political pressure to satisfy the Mon Calimari by putting another of their peoples' heroes in as Raddus's successor? Though I guess this would depend on when exactly Ackbar got the admiral post.
This was Ackbar's first appearance in the new EU, set immediately after the end of ANH during the evacuation of the rebel base.

Image

Notice how Ackbar also seems to be functioning as Dodonna's second-in-command here as well.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-03-17 08:47am

Ben's blue lightsaber (very similar to his cross-guard saber, and possibly it's original form)

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First Order AT-AT:

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First Order AT-ST:

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First Order stormtrooper gunner, deployed blaster:

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Praetorian armor vs lightsaber:

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Supremacy heavy turbolaser:

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Easter egg:

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Best view of Fulminaxtrix's bridge tower:

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Snoke's force lightning bounce:

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Fulminatrix auto-cannons:

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T-70 control column / FCS:

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TIE Silencer missiles:

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Supremacy HTL again, note Stormtroopers in vacuum:

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Resurgents, looking whiter than they did in TFA:

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Nice TIE pilot shot:

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-17 04:09pm

Nice.

Though I still say that it makes zero sense to call the Supremacy's weird arcing energy weapons HTLs, as they perform nothing like any previously-seen HTLs beyond having a green-colored bolt.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CetaMan » 2018-03-17 04:39pm

I doubt they are actually HTL's. They don't perform like them by having arcs and smaller ranges then what we have seen before.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2018-03-17 05:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-17 04:09pm
Nice.

Though I still say that it makes zero sense to call the Supremacy's weird arcing energy weapons HTLs, as they perform nothing like any previously-seen HTLs beyond having a green-colored bolt.
Yeah, I don't like them either, but the E8 ICS does specifically point them out / call them that.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-17 05:46pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-03-17 05:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-17 04:09pm
Nice.

Though I still say that it makes zero sense to call the Supremacy's weird arcing energy weapons HTLs, as they perform nothing like any previously-seen HTLs beyond having a green-colored bolt.
Yeah, I don't like them either, but the E8 ICS does specifically point them out / call them that.
Yeah, this is a problem with the EU at times- they try to "explain" something, or elaborate on something, from the films, and just end up making it more confusing.

They should have designated those weapons as something other than HTLs.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-24 12:15pm

Has anyone mentioned the novel of Last Jedi here
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-24 12:16pm

Okay, TRR, it's been two weeks, I'd like your refutations on my post concerning Holdo.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-24 12:21pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-17 05:46pm
Vympel wrote:
2018-03-17 05:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-17 04:09pm
Nice.

Though I still say that it makes zero sense to call the Supremacy's weird arcing energy weapons HTLs, as they perform nothing like any previously-seen HTLs beyond having a green-colored bolt.
Yeah, I don't like them either, but the E8 ICS does specifically point them out / call them that.
Yeah, this is a problem with the EU at times- they try to "explain" something, or elaborate on something, from the films, and just end up making it more confusing.

They should have designated those weapons as something other than HTLs.
I want to point out that there has been known errors on books to that's been out in mass print
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-26 04:41pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-24 12:16pm
Okay, TRR, it's been two weeks, I'd like your refutations on my post concerning Holdo.
My sincere apologies for the delayed reply reg. Holdo (although some of this stuff ended up being covered in other posts, and is therefore now redundant).

Here's my response to what I believe was your last post in this exchange. Just to let you know though: it is my intention to take a break from this board for a while (for reasons entirely unrelated to this discussion). I'll do my best to answer your points here, but if there are any points which this post does not satisfactorily answer, then I hope you will excuse me for withdrawing.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-05 03:47am
I mean their lack of military professionalism, which is fitting in a volunteer militia, but militias also work by bringing people you know personally in, regardless of capability if they bring something else to the table, such as ships, guns, troops, etc.

We don't get Holdo as either a brilliant tactician, or someone who leads by example, so we're left with aristocratic dilettante.
Addressed elsewhere, but this is a bit of an assumption, I think (unless its backed up in EU materials). We don't get anything on Holdo's background in the film, beyond her having been at some prior battle which impressed Poe, and her being friends with Leia.

I think the film mean to portray her as a capable tactician. We can argue about weather it succeeds in that (but then, tactics in SF films often seem a bit screwy). But her tactics are generally effective (or would have been in all probability without bad luck and Poe running his own op on the side). I can at least see where people are coming from on her having poor interpersonal skills, but I don't see much of an argument for "bad tactician" unless one literally takes Poe's rant about her at face value.
As others have noted in the thread, Poe's actions took out a First Order dreadnought for the cost of a wing of bombers. Considering how poor the ranges on Star Wars ships are thanks to this film, it's plausible that the dreadnought had better range with it's weaponry, and saved the Resistance's flotilla.
Perhaps, with the benefit of hindsight that Poe did not have at the time.

But I don't think anyone's questioning the lopsided cost-to-benefit ratio of trading a bomber wing for a dreadnought, in absolute terms. The point is that the engagement never should have happened in the first place. An insurgency/guerilla force is supposed to avoid stand-up fights with enemy capital ships unless they truly have no other choice.

Had the Resistance and First Order been fighting a conventional war with near-equal forces, Poe's choice would in all likelihood have been the tactically and strategically correct one. But they were fighting a different kind of war, and one Leia has immense experience in fighting and leading at this point. So I'm inclined to trust her call here over Poe's.

Though I will also acknowledge that Leia's judgement in the film is likely clouded by the fact that she is clearly having difficulty dealing with the personal losses she has suffered.
Or not, maybe it would have made no difference in the 18 hour slow crawl through empty space. Or, just like Holdo being unable to think about long term assets while in a ship, Poe is too dumb to think about long term survival of their assets, same way that Holdo was.
I don't think either of them is unable to understand the need for long term survival of their assets, based on what we see on-screen. But I do think that Poe is too driven by his emotions, and was using the wrong kinds of tactics for the kind of war they were fighting. Moreover, it wasn't his call to make.

To claim that Holdo is "unable to think about long term assets while in a ship", however, is in my opinion directly contradicted by on-screen evidence. She made a strategic decision to sacrifice some ships to preserve the personnel aboard them. You can agree or disagree with that call, but its pretty much the opposite of throwing away assets.

The worst you can argue about Holdo's goals in terms of resources-preservation is that she wasn't cold-blooded enough to make the cold hard call to sacrifice men to preserve ships (and even then, I question weather the ships could realistically have been saved).
Hence why in my version, Rose and Finn go to Maz and she's one of their stops.
That might well have worked better, but its something of an aside to the debate over Holdo's performance as admiral.
The Raddus's bridge crew, those who would be able to see the whole board, joined in the mutiny. Either Holdo wasn't briefing the bridge on what they were supposed to be doing besides kissing their butts goodbye, I mean, 'having hope', or they viewed her plan as so suicidal that they joined in.
Or, having served with Poe longer, they felt more personal loyalty towards him. Or they felt (rightly or wrongly) that his plan was more likely to succeed (which, I repeat, was not their call to make).

You can certainly interpret the bridge crew's actions in that light, but I feel that this is taking the interpretation that most negatively reflects on Holdo out of multiple possible interpretations, and then assuming it is the correct one.
That, and while we don't have a scene of the entire ship's crew running to the escape pods, we can infer from Rose's duties and comments that it was a sizable enough problem for them to put non-security people guarding the escape pods.
As to this, the desertions Rose referred to occurred either before or almost immediately after Holdo took command given the time frame, and thus cannot fairly be attributed to her poor leadership. I believe this point was covered previously.

Also, again, we don't know how many people ultimately tried to desert as a percentage of the total force, or for that matter weather Rose was stationed to stop deserters or took that duty upon herself. There is simply insufficient data.
Will you address those points?
Even if she tells them a false plan, it would give her crews something to do and focus on that rather than panicking and either mutinying, or abandoning ship.
A false plan is indeed a good idea, if only to throw off any possible spies. But considering that finding out part of her actual plan is what prompted Flyboy McJackass to mutiny, I'm not sure it would have done much good.
He objected because she came off, both in-universe and out, as way over her head and unwilling to entertain other options. I'm reasonably sure Poe wouldn't have mutinied if she gave him something to do that wasn't just tweedle our thumbs until we die. Giving people busywork that might even pay off later is a common tactic in a crisis. Telling them to shut up and act as if you're doing something will cause a crisis, as we see in a film.
We don't see how Holdo interacts with the rest of the crew. We see only how she interacts with Poe, who she had no reason to humor or regard as anything but a trouble-maker undermining her authority in a crisis.
Or, you know, it would have given him something to do. It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. As I said below, it's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

Here's a tip for you. If someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.

His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.[/quote]

You're still making an assumption about the motives of the bridge crew.

The truth is, we don't really know a lot about how Holdo interacted with the rest of the crew, because we see things mainly from Poe's point of view (presumably to set up the plot twist). A systematic failure to address moral problems would reflect poorly on her as a commander (though it would obviously not prove that she is incompetent in all other aspects of warfare, such as tactics or logistics). But it is not fair to judge her too harshly for not taking time to pacify one malcontent in the middle of a crisis, when far more pressing concerns would have been weighing on her (like the imminent lack of fuel, prepping the transports, repairing damage to critical systems, evacuating wounded personnel, etc.).

Remember that less than a day is supposed to elapse between Holdo assuming command in the middle of an absolutely nightmarish and chaotic situation, in which the entire chain of command has been effectively decapitated, and Poe's mutiny.

I question how well any commander could handle such a situation. That anyone survived is bordering on miraculous, and only due even then to the First Order pissing away their overwhelming advantage through a complete lack of tactical innovation.
Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.
If the First Order had competently executed a pincer tactic, the fleet would have died. End of story. This is not a reflection of Holdo's ability. It is simply the reality of her being hopelessly outmatched.

At best, she might have saved the escorts if she ordered the fleet to scatter, and even that is dubious. The command ship and anything on it or in its vicinity would have been destroyed. If the FO had brought interdictors, even that would not have been an option.

Obviously, the plan presumes that their stealth tech. is up to snuff. On-screen evidence suggests that that is the case.

Sweeping the planet would only have been an issue if they had reason to believe that the fleet had escaped. If they blew up the Raddus without detecting any ships leaving it, then they'd have no reason to believe that. I doubt, incidentally, that blown up starships tend to leave a lot of bodies. Not much survived close proximity to a reactor breach.

Yes, there are ways that the plan could have failed (and indeed did fail). In fact, you've missed what in my opinion is the biggest one- Kylo or Snoke detecting the ruse through the Force. But that is true of any alternative as well. There is no plan that is sure to succeed, especially when facing such monumental odds.
They were without Starfighter cover for 18 hours, they could apparently risk it. Though again, that's if the First Order doesn't just trap them in a pincer and kills them all.
Um, no?

The escorts presumably carry anti-starfighter guns. The Raddus's starfighter compliment was destroyed. But that's my point- in the absence of starfighters, their only cover against starfighter attack was the point defense guns, including those on the escorts. Apologies if I was unclear on this point.

In any case, sacrificing (or withdrawing) the escorts would strip the Raddus of that cover.

Once the last escort went up, admittedly, the FO probably should have swarmed the Raddus with fighters. Its almost baffling why they didn't. Shear complacent overconfidence, I guess (since they believed that they could track the Raddus anywhere and that it would eventually be run down, they exerted no especial effort to destroy it faster or more efficiently).
Holdo's plan relies on being able to survive without fighters for about a day, so this point is moot.
See above.
See above. :wink:
Note that this is Poe's plan in principle, not in practice. Instead of picking up one hacker, based off the rumors of a bartender, they go to a New Republic base or whatever, and grab hackers in addition to a fleet.
A "bartender" who has proven to be a valuable source of information in the past, and was known to Han (and presumably Leia?).

As to going to the NR- the NR is pretty much dead already. Is that pathetic? Yes. Is that the situation the Resistance has to deal with? Also yes. And given how fast the NR folded, it probably has a lot of First Order sympathizers, so I question the wisdom of going to it for help unless you know the people in question very well.

That said, it is a fairly good alternative plan you've got here, as I said before, but my prior criticisms reg. sending another ship to bring reinforcements stand (loss of anti-fighter cover, possible lack of time, and that I'm not sure weather the point of the Crait distress call was to call in reinforcements to help in a pitched battle with the FO at Crait, so much as it was to provoke a larger uprising across the galaxy).
Note that Poe is an idiot, Holdo is an idiot, Hux is an idiot, Finn and Rose are idiots etc. It's what TVTropes calls an Idiot Plot.
I wouldn't say Finn and Rose are idiots, so much as out of their depth. Finn is an infantry grunt by training, Rose a mechanic. Neither of them has any business playing intelligence operative- another point against Poe's plan.

Holdo- possibly somewhat lacking in the morale/interpersonal skills department (too little evidence to say definitively), but otherwise reasonably capable.

Poe- competent within a narrow field, but too hot-headed for larger responsibilities.

Hux- Yeah, he's an idiot. Basically no redeeming qualities there.
And I've pointed out why those are minor concerns, or things that are miniscule compared to 'Hopefully someone hears us and gives a damn, otherwise we're eating Ackbar's corpse with dipping sauce first.'

Again, idiot plot here, and internally inconsistent.

I hope everyone likes Calamari with crystal dog because Holdo AND Poe didn't send one of their ships to a gas station to fill up and bring extra back for the other two ships. Or extra ships.
Stripping the escorts from your fleet when you have no starfighters to protect against a possible bombing run is not a trivial concern, in my opinion.
Regarding only going straight to planet and nothing else:

Again, extra Ackbar servings for everybody, because they gave up on refueling, finding allies, going to a well defended New Republic system, etc, on the off chance that they get picked up before their broadcast is detected and they get killed for revealing their location, or before they run out of food.

Regarding running somewhere safer:

Hence the refuel, or go to a well defended system options. If those aren't feasible, hiding in a place where you can keep your medical frigate in case of medical emergency or not gamble everything on the First Order being idiots.
I'll reiterate- if the First Order had been written for maximum competency, the Resistance would have died, regardless of weather it was Holdo, Leia, Ackbar, Thrawn, or Captain Kirk in command. That the fleet would have died if the FO was more competent is not evidence of Holdo's incompetence- its simply a consequence of the disparity in forces available, and the complete clusterfuck that Holdo inherited when she assumed command.

For that matter, a competent FO fleet could have ended that battle before Holdo even had a chance to take command.

The rest of these points are basically addressed above- I'll acknowledge that this alternative plan has some merits, but it also has some very serious drawbacks. Though these are not really discussed in the film (and frankly, it would have probably bogged the film down if they had been).
Regarding New Republic idiocy:

Okay. I am NOT advocating genocide. Okay?
Yeah, I know.

I just get triggered by internet tough guy type stuff.
What I'm saying is that Mon Mothma's disarmament was asking for trouble, and is akin to South Korea completely disarming it's military after the Korean war if they had no allies whatsoever, and everyone going along with it. Anyone who thinks that utterly disarming next to an aggressive military neighbor to the point that a terrorist group can threaten you militarily shows that you don't care about your people's survival, and are asking for death. And is so hard to believe that suspensions of disbelief gets broken, and one has to ask if the people behind the films are trying to imply that the people siding with freedom are wrong, because in such a situation, they'll be horribly killed.
Is it stupid? Yes.

Is it unbelievable? I don't know. People can do some very strange things under the right (or wrong) pressures. I expect that this was a cultural backlash/overreaction to the militarism of the Galactic Empire, which they had just escaped.

Its easy as a detached viewer to say "This is stupid". But if you lived through the Clone Wars and twenty-thirty years of militaristic galactic tyranny and civil war? It might seem less certain.
That's what the sequel trilogy seems to be suggesting, that or that it's all pointless, as it's all controlled by the rich people who gamble away the money while the poor plebes fight and die.
That view is addressed in the film, of course, through the character of DJ, who seems to have such a view.

The point of Luke's sacrifice and the Resistance's escape at the end is to show that this view is in fact not correct, in my opinion. Weather you find that convincing or not is going to depend on one's own disposition, and I'm not sure its something that can be objectively proven or disproven.
Regarding Holdo's plan to wait it out:

See above on how that's riding on a lot to go right, and dooms them all if even one thing goes wrong., Like for example, being told that they're on their own, which happened in the movie, and the First Order having a few brain cells to sweep the area and look for survivors on the nearest habitable planet.
Why would they sweep the planet for survivors if their sensors recorded every ship blown up long before they reached the planet, and they detected no escape craft launching?

Even if no one comes to their aid, they probably have enough supplies to lie low for a while, arrange for a smuggler friend like Maz to evacuate them, etc.

The big risk is detection by Kylo or Snoke, but that's true of literally any attempt at deception or escape, given the nature of the Force. Whenever you try to engage Force users, you are to some extent rolling the dice on weather their precog will work today.
See above on how many mistakes Hux's flotilla would have to make in order for this to work. If Poe hadn't killed the only competent officer aboard the dreadnought at the beginning, maybe her plan would have gone up in smoke due to him executing a pincer, or searching the planet, just to be safe. It rides on her enemy making a lot of mistakes.
And again, if the FO had been competent, it wouldn't have mattered who was in command of the Resistance or how good they were- they'd have been fucked.

If even an average commander had lead that attack, it wouldn't have mattered if the FO was lead by a hybrid of Revan and Thrawn. The disparity in resources is just that great.
I hope I have properly addressed them now, and show you why they needed better planning.

Tl:Dr: Holdo's entire plan requires that the enemy fleet is run by absolute morons, and that other people in the Galaxy care about them enough to do something. Otherwise, they are either blown up, or starve to death.
Well, I actually do agree with you that Holdo's plan relies on the enemy being morons, and the rest of the galaxy giving a damn (then again, so does Leia's, and nobody's arguing her competency here).

I just think that would have been the case given the situation regardless of who was in command.
Like I said, I was spitballing, and it doesn't rely on an idiot plot to work. Yes, most of the sequel trilogy's problems seem to rest on JJ Abrams and his lack of competent world building, but this wouldn't show just how bad those problems are and compound them, as TLJ did.
Eh. There's a lot of ways you could have written the ST. Some are better, some are worse. TLJ is in this respect a reasonable extrapolation from TFA.
Your mileage may vary, as it made me think Holdo was being set up as a surprise villain who was profiting off the war due to her aristocratic look and demeanor towards working class people like Poe. And Star Wars was headed in a class warfare direction.
That... honestly never occurred to me.

If that was intended, its actually quite brilliant as a bit of misdirection, because it ties the whole thing in with Rose and Finn's adventure thematically. Although I don't recall anything about Holdo in the film that particularly screams "aristocrat", unless you means simply wearing a dress and being friends with a princess.

It would be hard to do class warfare in Star Wars though, with the whole Leia being a princess thing.
That may be why I dislike Holdo, she thematically comes across as a WWI officer, not caring about her troops' lives, more concerned with how pretty she looks,like while also showing similarly dressed people gambling away on casino world. Until at the last moment we find that it's a badly executed psych out, that she was a hero after all.
Yeah, if that's where you thought the character was going, I can see why you'd dislike her. Doesn't mean I agree, but I get it, sort of.

If I were to summarize my view of Holdo vs. Poe at this point, it would probably be along these lines:

Holdo is an experienced commander with a record of success, who is making an effort to preserve her personnel at the cost of her ships. The wisdom of that tactic can be debated, but it is likely that she was acting in accordance with Leia's wishes (though it is also possible that Leia's judgment was impaired by her recent personal losses, rending her excessively unwilling to risk personnel). Her ability to deal with the situation was likely also hampered greatly by the general chaos, existing morale problems, and lack of resources. However, this would have been true to some extent for any commander in her place.

Poe is reacting on emotion, primarily fear. Holdo admittedly does little to address his fears, but I find it difficult to condemn her, given that Poe is a recently-disgraced and demoted subordinate, in a situation where there is genuine reason (even if never stated in the film) to believe that the fleet has been infiltrated, and that he almost immediately reacts to Holdo with disrespect and hostility and never really gives her the benefit of the doubt.

As to the argument that Poe's mutiny and the desertions reveal a general dissatisfaction with Holdo's leadership, I think that there is simply insufficient evidence. Few of the crew are shown taking an active part on either side of the mutiny, and the discussion of desertions happens too soon after Holdo takes command to confidently attribute it to her leadership.

I do think that in some ways, Poe and Holdo are mirrors of each other. Both are friends/proteges of Leia, but come at the issue from different directions. Poe is recklessly, driven by emotion, and too quick to engage. Holdo is perhaps too hesitant, too inflexible. Both are antagonistic towards the other. However, given that Holdo was the higher-ranked officer and Poe her subordinate, that she had far more to deal with than Poe at the time, that Poe had just gotten himself demoted, and that Holdo was likely acting in accordance with Leia's wishes, I tend to give greater blame to Poe.

The film does give the impression that Holdo is incompetent or a traitor- not because this is actually supported by the evidence or the intent of the film, but because we are initially shown things from Poe's point of view, the audience has already learned to identify with him, and it plays on genre conventions/expectations. This sets up the ultimate reversal, but it is possible that the film could have done a more effective job of conveying that Poe was in error. That's the risk with a plot-twist like that- the set-up can end up overshadowing the ultimate revelation that the filmmakers intended.

As to the question of sexism: I think that, undoubtably, some of those attacking Holdo (I'm talking about the overall response to the character, not specifically the debate on this forum) are driven, consciously or unconsciously, by gender bias. I think some people will tend to be more critical of a female authority figure (this is hardly a secret, or a controversial claim), especially perhaps if she appears overtly "feminine", as Holdo does. Some people will tend to identify with the idea of a male hero being held back by a powerful woman. I don't think the film helps matters either, since some of the dialog between Poe and Holdo can come off as Holdo and Poe's mutual animosity being due to the other's gender (Poe saying he's disappointed almost the moment he catches sight of her, Holdo dismissing him as an arrogant flyboy or some such).

But I also think that there are a number of other factors at play, including OT fanboyism (including resentment over her replacing Ackbar), general hostility to the film, and people being so convinced by the set-up that they found the subsequent twist unconvincing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-03-26 06:43pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-26 04:41pm
Holdo is an experienced commander with a record of success, who is making an effort to preserve her personnel at the cost of her ships.
I would just like to point out a few things.

First, the film gives us no indication Holdo has a record of success, only that she was present at a given battle. I don't know if that means she won a great victory or just got more people out when a slaughter was expected. I don't even know if she's not being mentioned for an infamous act or not. Had he survived, people could have said 'Oh yeah that's Porkins, from the Battle of Yavin' but if all he did was get clipped and bug out that means jack shit.

Secondly, she's clearly not making an effort to preserve her personnel. This is, I think, one of the most dishonest parts of the storytelling. The captain of the medical frigate is left behind to die for absolutely no good reason. No autopilot is set, no droid is left to pilot the ship isn't even just left unattented- he stays behind because....? This is really just exploiting the 'captain goes down with the ship' trope, which makes sense when the chance for survival is limited. Not enough room on the lifeboats? Fine, captain stays, whatever. But this is intentionally used to trick us, because in this instance that's simply not the case. The Raddus is grotesquely undermanned and experienced captains are a valuable resource. This is where Holdo's depiction turns really stinky to me. She could have easily ordered that captain to jump on one of the transports and head over, but she let him die. It's hard to see that as 'preserving personnel'.

More over, this is done in service to fooling the audience (and to some degree no doubt Poe) who are naturally going to assume the captain died because there was no better alternative. Holdo was so dead set on keeping her OpSec she let this guy die to preserve the illusion there was no plan. That's at least the medical frigate- there's another death on her hands if her old ship the Ninka likewise went down with a captain. We don't get a goodbye scene, only some transports arriving at the Raddus so who knows there. Point remains there was no good reason to let the captain die other than to fool Poe/the audience into believing there was no plan.

As a side note, Rose is supposedly the one who creates and fits the shuttles with cloaks- something she clearly did before heading to Canto Bight (or being stuck on deserter watch). This is, however, never mentioned or brought up, not even when Poe 'spills the bean' over the communications. Which means a few things. One, DJ has no way of knowing the ships are cloaked or to inform the First Order of such. Two, Rose is a fucking idiot for not telling Poe "oh she had me rig up cloaks on those" because that is a MAJOR fucking change in circumstance- more importantly it implies Holdo has a plan. But we can't have the audience thinking that, so we get Holdo saying nothing, captains dying, Rose remaining silent and DJ pulling shit out of his ass.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-26 06:47pm

TRR, shame that you're taking a break from the forum. Hopefully we can continue this when you return.

Regarding Holdo's background:

Going by the film itself, unless it's meant to be a cultural or planetary thing, all we know is that she was in a previous battle, and that visually, as used to convey things in Star Wars, she wears non-practical clothing, has time to dye her hair (unless that's supposed to be her natural color), and doesn't brief her officers. That's the reason it gives off a bad impression. She comes off as more of a foil to Leia, in how not to lead, when we were given examples of Leia's leadership at the beginning, where she addressed her people's concerns immediately, which made them move on to being productive.

Yes, this is all set up for the twist regarding Poe's lack of perspective, but as stated, it makes the audience regard her plan as not well thought out.

Now, as you are pointing out, Starfighter escort.

We see Finn and Rose leave without taking one of the escorts. If they're really needed to cover the Raddus, as mentioned, Finn and Rose are able to bring in refueling and reinforcements without taking them. Even if Mon Mothma's peace at any price plan was her way to re-election, it thematically ruins what the heroes accomplished. It also makes both the heroes and the villains seem less dangerous due to idiocy.

Sure, in-universe, there might be a wave of peaceniks screaming to disarm the New Republic military, but thematically, it points to the heroes having failed at saving the day. And the only reason this is a factor is to justify Holdo's plan of being fired on for a day to hide. Its not a logical progression of story, but one used to justify bad writing.

There should be something left of the New Republic to run to. But since the ST is so bad at world building, it comes off as either the New Republic being idiots, or the Resistance leadership.

Regarding morale:

Yes, Holdo had less than a day, Leia seemed to have less than fifteen minutes, and addressed morale better. I understand that we're being bamboozled by the film, but as I stated, it leaves the impression that she doesn't know what she's doing.

Even if Poe is a moron when it comes to tactics, delegation of some responsibility, even if it's clearing the loading bays, or working triage, would keep him busy, and take weight off her shoulders. Even if those are already covered, sending him there would help speed things up.

A simple: 'Poe, get us reinforcements, I don't care how, I'll work on the rest' would have worked.

It could also be argued that Poe was working on Leia's original plan of disabling the tracking, and Holdo and Poe never communicated about it due to them butting heads.

This is why morale and relations are important in a militia. And I understand that things are chaotic, but a 30 second general brief might have worked. Old plan and new plan fighting each other to the detriment of the planners.

Regarding FO stupidity:

If having the villains HAVE to be idiots for the heroes to not die is a plot requirement, then the story needs a redraft. Poe's little 'prank call' sabotages the idea that the First Order is a threat, as Leia should have broadcast to the First Order fleet that she has their collective noses, and they better surrender if they want them back.

As shown in my previous posts, you can have the First Order outwitted by the Resistance, without making both sides look bad for not grasping obvious solutions.

Regarding theme:

Luke rectifying the belief that it's the poor dying while the rich gamble. If that's the intention, it didn't connect with me. Instead, it came off as a failed Hail Mary, and that instead, at best, we'll get a children's Jedi crusade. Maybe it's a failure of mine to pick it up, but I also believe that the various subplots were supposed to connect to each other in theme, as opposed to just sit by each other, and sabotage each other.

Maybe IX will tie things together better.
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