Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 09:38pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 09:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 08:52pm
Then again, Leia doesn't get flak for not wearing a uniform (or at least not nearly as much), so the uniform criticism at least comes off more as OT bias than gender bias.
Leia proved herself in combat though, while Holdo was a complete unknown to us.
So was Leia in Episode IV.

Granted, it was a different time. A female action hero in pants in the late '70s probably would have been pretty revolutionary.
Leia also wore more practical attire when she was actually stationed on Hoth and Home One.
True, though an admiral shouldn't really expect to have to fight or perform manual labour on the bridge of her ship unless things have gotten beyond fucked.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 09:47pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 09:38pm
Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 09:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 08:52pm
Then again, Leia doesn't get flak for not wearing a uniform (or at least not nearly as much), so the uniform criticism at least comes off more as OT bias than gender bias.
Leia proved herself in combat though, while Holdo was a complete unknown to us.
So was Leia in Episode IV.

Granted, it was a different time. A female action hero in pants in the late '70s probably would have been pretty revolutionary.
Leia was captured while she was acting in her capacity as an Imperial Senator, not a soldier. Her attire throughout ANH made sense.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 09:38pm
Leia also wore more practical attire when she was actually stationed on Hoth and Home One.
True, though an admiral shouldn't really expect to have to fight or perform manual labour on the bridge of her ship unless things have gotten beyond fucked.
I'm not talking about fighting or manual labor, just basic military professionalism.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 10:05pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 09:12pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 09:01pm
As pointed out, her lack of morale building, delegation, tactics, and most importantly, crisis management, lead to the allegations that she is incompetent. The lack of uniform, and seeming inability to keep discipline or structure with her crew without getting the majority of her fleet destroyed, her crew mutinying, or having a sizable portion attempting to desert presents other proof of incompetence.
Alright, let's take those charges one at a time:

Lack of morale building. She delivers a speech to try to inspire the crew when she takes over (the reasons for not revealing the specifics of her plans have been gone over and over). Subsequently she fails to address Poe's concerns, but we don't really know how she interacted with every member of the crew. I'll acknowledge that she may not be the most naturally charismatic or inspiring officer. But its a long way from that to "incompetent".

I will also acknowledge that she did little to defuse the situation with Poe. But will point out that she had no reason given the circumstances to humour him, was probably busy with other shit, and that Poe did little to try to defuse the situation either.
She had 18 hours, and multiple meetings to correct his assumption, and give him something to do. Repeatedly.
Lack of delegation. This seems to come out of nowhere, unless you are simply assuming/asserting (without proof) that Holdo informed no one of her plans and passed no instructions on to any of her subordinates. This is, at best, unproven due to insufficient evidence.
Poe is her XO unless he was properly relieved. This means that he could have advised her, took some of the tasks she needed done, or worked on morale since that seemed to be beneath her. Keeping him in the dark and losing two ships and her big plan is to abandon ship without telling him makes her look either like an incompetent or a coward.
Poor tactics. We've debated this point at length. You have proposed possible alternative strategies, and I have raised potentially fatal objections to all of them.

The only thing we do know for certain, based on on-screen evidence, is that Holdo's plan was working until DJ turned his coat. Do you acknowledge that?
No. She lost two out of her three ships when they could have gone somewhere else, and your claims of Starfighter cover are irrelevant, as due to the what we see, it was unnecessary for their running away, and her plan hinged on her plan not running into anything going wrong, which it did due to Poe's incompetence, but could have also gone wrong due to the First Order having functioning brain cells, see my point about a pincer tactic.
What I wrote two pages ago wrote:Her plan was stupid, and relied on the First Order not doing a pincer tactic, their stealth transports actually working, their stealth tech being up to snuff against the better equipped First Order sensors, the First Order wondering why there aren't any bodies as they sweep the Raddus debris, or not sweeping the debris at all, not noticing the settlement on the planet, the engine trail to the planet, not sweeping the planet at all, Leia's big broadcasting ring, etc.
Her plan is a house of cards that would have fallen to pieces anyway if her opponents knew what they were doing at all.
Poor crisis management. Since you emphasize this as your most important point, I'd appreciate it if you define in more specific detail what you mean by a lack of crisis management, and why you feel Holdo is guilty of it.
What I wrote two pages ago wrote:it would have given him something to do. It's hard to plan a mutiny when you're busy keeping morale up, finding allies, repairing systems, plotting places to resupply, etc. As I said below, it's basic crisis management, in the event of a battle, natural disaster, etc, you keep people busy, especially when they're panicking. That Holdo doesn't do this presents her as more of a paperpusher who has never had to lead troops before.

Here's a tip for you. If someone is panicking in an emergency, you're in the leadership position, and because they don't think you have a plan, they are going to react as if you don't have a plan. You should instead make them feel valuable, and give them a job that they can handle, so that they are both A. Out of the way, and B. Being productive.

This is why, in the military, in Crisis situations, if the head leadership person on site is unable to take command, the person next in line does so. In fact, if people in command know they aren't fit for duty, they're supposed to step aside. Holdo came off as not having a plan, so Poe relieved her of duty, as he had a plan.

His plan was very flawed and blew up in his face, but he(and the bridge crew) knew he had one, and thought she didn't. The fact that she didn't correct anyone on this is why she was facing her own crew members pointing guns at her.

If Poe still flies off the handle because he's an idiot, then he gets tazed like Finn did, as everyone else will listen.
Lack of uniform. Virtually a tradition in the Rebellion/Resistance (which as you claim, is not a professional military). This is not a valid point against her competency unless you want to level similar accusations against Leia, Han, the protagonists of Rebels, Luke Skywalker, etc.
As said by others, Leia has worn uniforms when in command, and since Holdo has 18 hours to grab a uniform, or have been wearing one while in command of another vessel before the events of the film, it seems odd.

Not a major point though, for all I know, cocktail dresses are a uniform from where she comes from.
Lack of maintaining discipline/loyalty among the crew. You appear to be portraying the mutiny as a general uprising by the crew, rather than the actions of a few disgruntled individuals that was quickly put down. That contradicts on-screen evidence, as I already have gone over repeatedly in this thread.

We also have no clear idea of the number of desertions overall, or as a percentage of the total crew.
Enough to where Rose, a non-security officer, was stationed at the escape pods to stop deserters. This means that security for the ship was busy with other things, making desertions seem like a pressing problem.
Her being a political appointee and/or paperpusher is the most probable reason for her lack of ability. However, she is not alone in lacking competence, as demonstrated by Hux's stupidity and Poe's lack of ComSec.
And Poe's blatant insubordination, and Poe's lack of understanding of the priorities of an insurgency, and Poe's lack of emotional self-control...

Edited to add underlining and address the point about crew discipline.
[/quote]

Like I said, idiot plot:
again, two pages ago wrote:Note that this is Poe's plan in principle, not in practice. Instead of picking up one hacker, based off the rumors of a bartender, they go to a New Republic base or whatever, and grab hackers in addition to a fleet.

Note that Poe is an idiot, Holdo is an idiot, Hux is an idiot, Finn and Rose are idiots etc. It's what TVTropes calls an Idiot Plot.

And I've pointed out why those are minor concerns, or things that are miniscule compared to 'Hopefully someone hears us and gives a damn, otherwise we're eating Ackbar's corpse with dipping sauce first.'

Again, idiot plot here, and internally inconsistent.

I hope everyone likes Calamari with crystal dog because Holdo AND Poe didn't send one of their ships to a gas station to fill up and bring extra back for the other two ships. Or extra ships.

Regarding only going straight to planet and nothing else:

Again, extra Ackbar servings for everybody, because they gave up on refueling, finding allies, going to a well defended New Republic system, etc, on the off chance that they get picked up before their broadcast is detected and they get killed for revealing their location, or before they run out of food.

Regarding running somewhere safer:

Hence the refuel, or go to a well defended system options. If those aren't feasible, hiding in a place where you can keep your medical frigate in case of medical emergency or not gamble everything on the First Order being idiots.

Regarding New Republic idiocy:

Okay. I am NOT advocating genocide. Okay?

What I'm saying is that Mon Mothma's disarmament was asking for trouble, and is akin to South Korea completely disarming it's military after the Korean war if they had no allies whatsoever, and everyone going along with it. Anyone who thinks that utterly disarming next to an aggressive military neighbor to the point that a terrorist group can threaten you militarily shows that you don't care about your people's survival, and are asking for death. And is so hard to believe that suspensions of disbelief gets broken, and one has to ask if the people behind the films are trying to imply that the people siding with freedom are wrong, because in such a situation, they'll be horribly killed. That's what the sequel trilogy seems to be suggesting, that or that it's all pointless, as it's all controlled by the rich people who gamble away the money while the poor plebes fight and die.

Regarding Holdo's plan to wait it out:

See above on how that's riding on a lot to go right, and dooms them all if even one thing goes wrong., Like for example, being told that they're on their own, which happened in the movie, and the First Order having a few brain cells to sweep the area and look for survivors on the nearest habitable planet.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 10:06pm

Stepping away from the Holdo debate for a moment, I'd like to talk a bit more about how the Force is portrayed in TLJ, in particular three main points:

First off, there's the "balance" thing, suggesting an equivalency between Light Side and Dark Side. That is something that I very much disagree with, and believe is very much at odds with the OT. However, its minor and ambiguous enough that I think its open to interpretation. Fortunately, as this otherwise might have been a deal-breaker for me with this film.

Secondly, there is Snoke's claim that when a strong Dark Sider emerges, a Light Side champion will rise to oppose them. Some have argued that this makes the Force a sinister force that is setting Light and Dark Side Force users against each other endlessly, though I think that that's drawing a rather large conclusion from very thin evidence. After all, we only have Snoke's word to go on here, for the most part, and even he doesn't state weather the Force creates both Light and Dark Side champions, or simply brings forward Light Side champions to correct a Dark Side imbalance. If the latter, then this is really just a restating of the Prequels' Chosen One concept.

There is an obvious KotOR 2 parallel here, though. I've heard that Johnson acknowledges KotOR as an inspiration, and I'm inclined to believe it (I think the influence of KotOR on the ST in general doesn't get nearly enough attention).

What's more interesting here to me, though, is the implication that there have been multiple "Chosen Ones", and that Rey is, if not a blood descendent of Anakin, possibly a reincarnation, spiritual successor, or new Chosen One in the same vein. That is likely partly my bias, because I felt that Rey claiming Anakin's lightsaber from Kylo in TFA set her up symbolically as Anakin's rightful successor, and I grew to like the "Rey is a reincarnated Chosen One" theory. But it would explain some of her more high-end abilities (remember who piloted an unfamiliar star fighter to victory at nine?) in a manner that fits so neatly with established canon.

The third point is the subtle repositioning of how the nature of the Light and Dark Side are depicted.

In the PT, the Old Republic Jedi shunned attachment as leading to fear, thus to anger, and thus to the Dark Side. This is an interpretation that I strongly disagree with (so I am doubtless biased here as well), and I feel that the OT showed a progression by the Jedi away from this attitude.

On the one hand, Luke's failures with Ben, and Ben's fall, could be seen as reconfirming the Prequel Jedi view somewhat. But I don't think so, ultimately. Look at Rey: She is passionate, attached, often seems angry when she fights. She's tempted- but she doesn't fall. Throughout TLJ, Rey retains hope- she never gives up, no matter how hopeless the situation seems. She tries to persuade Luke to keep fighting. She believes Kylo can be saved, and while she's wrong about that, she doesn't despair when she is proven wrong. When Yoda says that she has what she needs to be a Jedi, it is immediately after she refuses to abandon hope that Kylo can be saved, and walks out on Luke for doing so. When Snoke describes her as a true Jedi, he notes that it is because she still has hope, even when she is hopelessly outmatched. This all fits with the film's overall theme of retaining hope, as echoed in Holdo's rhetoric, and in Luke's last stand and the Resistance's escape inspiring further resistance, to name the most obvious points.

In contrast, what does the Dark Side offer in Rey's vision in the Dark Side cave? Nothing. Just a reflection of Rey herself.

I would argue that the film is subtly redefining the Light and Dark Side as being defined, not by the presence or absence of attachment, but by the presence or absence of hope. The Light Side is the side of hope. Implicitly, therefore, its opposite the Dark Side is the side of nihilism and despair.

Thoughts?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 10:24pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 10:06pm
I would argue that the film is subtly redefining the Light and Dark Side as being defined, not by the presence or absence of attachment, but by the presence or absence of hope. The Light Side is the side of hope. Implicitly, therefore, its opposite the Dark Side is the side of nihilism and despair.

Thoughts?
Would that mean a clinically depressed force user is doomed to using the dark side?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 10:29pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 10:24pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 10:06pm
I would argue that the film is subtly redefining the Light and Dark Side as being defined, not by the presence or absence of attachment, but by the presence or absence of hope. The Light Side is the side of hope. Implicitly, therefore, its opposite the Dark Side is the side of nihilism and despair.

Thoughts?
Would that mean a clinically depressed force user is doomed to using the dark side?
Well, that might fall under "unfortunate implications", but yes, I expect a depressed Force user would be... not certain to fall, but certainly more vulnerable to the Dark Side.

Then again... I'm not a psychiatrist, but using the Force seems to rely on the strength of will and emotional state of the user. I wouldn't be surprised if severe depression made it harder to use the Force at all, for either good or evil.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 11:31pm


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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Knife » 2018-03-08 12:27am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 10:06pm
Stepping away from the Holdo debate for a moment, I'd like to talk a bit more about how the Force is portrayed in TLJ, in particular three main points:

First off, there's the "balance" thing, suggesting an equivalency between Light Side and Dark Side. That is something that I very much disagree with, and believe is very much at odds with the OT. However, its minor and ambiguous enough that I think its open to interpretation. Fortunately, as this otherwise might have been a deal-breaker for me with this film.
I thought it was pretty clear Lucas had some eastern leanings put into the Force, or at least his interpretation of them. There is only one Force, it has light and dark, you can't have light without dark and cannot have dark without light. I take an almost B5 look at it in that the Light is stable, unchanging, while the dark is change, chaos. They intertwine. Being stable is good, but if you're unwilling to change to new things, new ideas, new realities, then you're not stable, you're stagnant. Change can be good, but it is also painful and to much leads to no core stability. You need both.

But also Starwars is a good versus evil tale, where you can't have good without evil and vice versa. It's a contrast issue.
Secondly, there is Snoke's claim that when a strong Dark Sider emerges, a Light Side champion will rise to oppose them. Some have argued that this makes the Force a sinister force that is setting Light and Dark Side Force users against each other endlessly, though I think that that's drawing a rather large conclusion from very thin evidence. After all, we only have Snoke's word to go on here, for the most part, and even he doesn't state weather the Force creates both Light and Dark Side champions, or simply brings forward Light Side champions to correct a Dark Side imbalance. If the latter, then this is really just a restating of the Prequels' Chosen One concept.
Again, I view it as a contrast and I'm pretty sure Lucas has his idea of eastern philosophy here. You can't have a good unless you can contrast it with evil to set it apart. A slightly evil thing and a slightly good thing still look pretty gray, but a really good thing contrasts with the gray or the black so you can tell it's good.

And, while I'm an atheist, I do think the Force is just the place holder for a God in the SW universe. It has a plan and executed it. It was almost Asmovian. The Republic is broken, the Jedi arrogant and attached to the hip of the Republic that is corrupt. Send in a Darksider with power and just enough visions of the future to sack the whole thing and bring it down, then set up a pressure relief valve in Vader and his kid, to get rid of the grand pooh-bah bad guy and start afresh.

It's a pretty well used theme for... like all of human history in story telling. yeah, some moral problems with it. All the people who died in the conversion, free will, etc...
There is an obvious KotOR 2 parallel here, though. I've heard that Johnson acknowledges KotOR as an inspiration, and I'm inclined to believe it (I think the influence of KotOR on the ST in general doesn't get nearly enough attention).
No comment
What's more interesting here to me, though, is the implication that there have been multiple "Chosen Ones", and that Rey is, if not a blood descendent of Anakin, possibly a reincarnation, spiritual successor, or new Chosen One in the same vein. That is likely partly my bias, because I felt that Rey claiming Anakin's lightsaber from Kylo in TFA set her up symbolically as Anakin's rightful successor, and I grew to like the "Rey is a reincarnated Chosen One" theory. But it would explain some of her more high-end abilities (remember who piloted an unfamiliar star fighter to victory at nine?) in a manner that fits so neatly with established canon.
That causes a problem, at least for me then, in that what is a 'chosen one' supposed to be? Luke was the chosen one because only he could redeem Vader. Thematically, he wanted to be cool like his dad his whole life till he found out his dad was a piece of shit and became something better than his dad. He stepped up and made the choice his father could not make. He choose good for the sake of good, even if it meant sacrificing himself. Then live his life in... well in TLJ we find out his chosen one status was just for that moment.

Anakin was the first to try to make that decision and failed, he chose to do bad for goods sake and ended up fucking everything up.

What's Rey going to do? Chosen to do what? She is the 'grow into a hero' character that they just spent an entire movie doing a deconstruction of hero movies on. Does she save Ren? Who cares, he killed his dad and the actress who played mom is dead so...kind of hard seeing how Leia is going to be in anymore movies. Luke's story was good because he wanted to be adventurous, wanted to fly like his dad, wanted to be a Jedi like his dad when he found out about it, found out his dad was a major ass and decided he was going to be more than his dad, be what his dad should have been and then try to get his dad to become something more as well. Not sure how Rey can do this with Ren or anyone. Not saying they can't come up with something, but thematically it's hard to see where they can go from here. They kind of painted themselves into a corner.
The third point is the subtle repositioning of how the nature of the Light and Dark Side are depicted.

In the PT, the Old Republic Jedi shunned attachment as leading to fear, thus to anger, and thus to the Dark Side. This is an interpretation that I strongly disagree with (so I am doubtless biased here as well), and I feel that the OT showed a progression by the Jedi away from this attitude.
Meh, the PT showed that the Jedi were kind of right. Anakin could not let go, and because of that fell, and because of that the Jedi Order fell. I don't think the Republic is on Anakin's shoulders, but the Jedi Order sure is. Now we can discuss if the Jedi Order needed to or deserved to fall, sure. But you are right that there were other ways they could have institutionally handled it as well. I do believe that in the novel, Yoda admits he was wrong. He was the one who steered the Order to be like this, who continued the traditions of the Jedi from 800 years ago. He saw that the Sith had changed and the Jedi had not and it cost them everything.
On the one hand, Luke's failures with Ben, and Ben's fall, could be seen as reconfirming the Prequel Jedi view somewhat. But I don't think so, ultimately.
Yeah, this was handled so poorly it's hard for me to comment on your point. Luke Skywalker, who stood in front of the Emperor, who stood up to the Emperor, fought Darth Vader and redeemed him, never felt as much evil and power that scared him as he did in his nephew and Rey? :roll:

I guess maybe Luke did read to many old books on Jedi and followed their mistakes.
Look at Rey: She is passionate, attached, often seems angry when she fights. She's tempted- but she doesn't fall. Throughout TLJ, Rey retains hope- she never gives up, no matter how hopeless the situation seems. She tries to persuade Luke to keep fighting. She believes Kylo can be saved, and while she's wrong about that, she doesn't despair when she is proven wrong. When Yoda says that she has what she needs to be a Jedi, it is immediately after she refuses to abandon hope that Kylo can be saved, and walks out on Luke for doing so. When Snoke describes her as a true Jedi, he notes that it is because she still has hope, even when she is hopelessly outmatched. This all fits with the film's overall theme of retaining hope, as echoed in Holdo's rhetoric, and in Luke's last stand and the Resistance's escape inspiring further resistance, to name the most obvious points.
I'm actually a Rey fan, that said she's been a Jedi-ish for like less than a week. Hardly time to develop into a Sith by fighting with aggression. I will agree with you that she is the good for good's sake character. She is the one who kindles hope.
In contrast, what does the Dark Side offer in Rey's vision in the Dark Side cave? Nothing. Just a reflection of Rey herself.

I would argue that the film is subtly redefining the Light and Dark Side as being defined, not by the presence or absence of attachment, but by the presence or absence of hope. The Light Side is the side of hope. Implicitly, therefore, its opposite the Dark Side is the side of nihilism and despair.

Thoughts?
Nah, I don't think it has changed it much at all.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-08 03:53am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:04pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:10pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
Opposite is too strong a word, it's not solely based on merit.

Han Solo was promoted to General due to his affiliation with Leia and Luke, while he was frozen in Carbonite. Leia's own initial rank comes from her adoptive father's founding of the Rebellion, his rank comes from his wife's royalty. Ackbar's supreme rank due to the Mon Calamari bringing in the majority of ships from their world into the Rebel Alliance.

This is due to the cell structure of the Alliance, but it shows that resources and connections count for a lot in the Alliance.
Han was promoted because he volunteered for a dangerous mission where'd be in command of a large number of men and needs it. (Likewise Lando was apparently selected for merit "someone told them about my little manoeuvre at the Battle of Tanaab'') Leia has no high rank in the rebellion, she commands a Corvette that she has a senator and conducts espionage. Neither she nor Bail commands the Rebellion: in Rogue One we see it seems to be ruled by committee (to it's detriment) Raddus and Blue Leader moving forces separately. We have no idea how say Blue Leader gained General's rank.

Admirals appear to often Mon Cal and so do their biggest ships; this seems more practical than anything. Those officers will presumably also have the most experience operating and commanding those ships.

It's an interesting and partially logical supposition but there's little evidence they carry on a policy like that to the detriment of their own forces.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-10 06:18pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-08 03:53am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:04pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:10pm


Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
Opposite is too strong a word, it's not solely based on merit.

Han Solo was promoted to General due to his affiliation with Leia and Luke, while he was frozen in Carbonite. Leia's own initial rank comes from her adoptive father's founding of the Rebellion, his rank comes from his wife's royalty. Ackbar's supreme rank due to the Mon Calamari bringing in the majority of ships from their world into the Rebel Alliance.

This is due to the cell structure of the Alliance, but it shows that resources and connections count for a lot in the Alliance.
Han was promoted because he volunteered for a dangerous mission where'd be in command of a large number of men and needs it. (Likewise Lando was apparently selected for merit "someone told them about my little manoeuvre at the Battle of Tanaab'') Leia has no high rank in the rebellion, she commands a Corvette that she has a senator and conducts espionage. Neither she nor Bail commands the Rebellion: in Rogue One we see it seems to be ruled by committee (to it's detriment) Raddus and Blue Leader moving forces separately. We have no idea how say Blue Leader gained General's rank.
Wasn't Han already a general before he volunteered for the Endor mission?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-10 06:30pm

I don't recall that he was but I've not seen RotJ in a long time. I think he's just referred to as a Captain before the DSII briefing.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-10 06:54pm

Yeah, I think he's just "Captain Solo" (or maybe commander?) in ESB. I'm not sure he even has a formal rank in the Alliance until RotJ.

Luke is referred to as Commander Skywalker in ESB, I believe. But I don't think he's ever given a formal rank higher than commander in the films.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-10 08:40pm

Anyone else notice Lando has outrank the rest of the Hero's of the Rebellion despite being the shortest time span with them?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Batman » 2018-03-10 09:01pm

Yeah, no. Han is referred to as a General too
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-03-11 12:30am

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-10 08:40pm
Anyone else notice Lando has outrank the rest of the Hero's of the Rebellion despite being the shortest time span with them?
I think Leia still has them. She is more of a figure head given her planet and its resources are no longer contributing, but given Mon Mothma's civilian control of the Alliance I think we can assume that if Leia decided to lay down the law her orders will be followed unless she is directly and overtly subordinating herself positional authority wise like the Endor mission.

That may also be how she ends up a military leader (I still dislike this) in the new movies. She hangs on to a moribund organization everyone else abandons post Jakku and then when they become relevant again she is the defacto leader in place and can assume whatever role she wants. Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-03-11 12:38pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-03-11 12:30am
PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-10 08:40pm
Anyone else notice Lando has outrank the rest of the Hero's of the Rebellion despite being the shortest time span with them?
I think Leia still has them. She is more of a figure head given her planet and its resources are no longer contributing, but given Mon Mothma's civilian control of the Alliance I think we can assume that if Leia decided to lay down the law her orders will be followed unless she is directly and overtly subordinating herself positional authority wise like the Endor mission.

That may also be how she ends up a military leader (I still dislike this) in the new movies. She hangs on to a moribund organization everyone else abandons post Jakku and then when they become relevant again she is the defacto leader in place and can assume whatever role she wants. Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.
In Lando's case, it is posible a matter of contribution to the Rebellion. Cloud City was a Tibanna gas extraction operation and, while he may have lost direct ownership, he may still have been able to bring resources and/or contacts.

OT Leia was the unifying factor, both in the small band of heroes, and in the bigger Rebel Alliance, always at the helm of the ship. This is what bugs me about ST Leia, she was written in a way that she only unifies the small Resistance, but that the galaxy as a whole has casted her out.

Per Bloodlines book, Leia is the one building the Resistance after a close encounter with a group of imperialists and noticing there is money being funneled towards some organization (that is mentioned to be the FO, but she still doesn't know that, the FO is not yet public). Ackbar joins right when she creates the Resistance and, I believe, he still holds the rank of Admiral. Guess that, unlike it was in the Rebel Alliance, General outranks Admiral in the Resistance (or maybe the new directors misunderstood that Lando outranked Ackbar on RotJ, which was not true).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2018-03-11 01:00pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-10 08:40pm
Anyone else notice Lando has outrank the rest of the Hero's of the Rebellion despite being the shortest time span with them?
Of course that's why there's the dialogue about the Battle of Tanaab to establish that Lando has previous experience as a combat leader to justify his rank. A very excellent piece of exposition.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-11 01:03pm

General and Admiral are generally equivilent ranks, just in different fields. Fleet Command vs Starfighter command vs ground forces. (Ackbar/Lando/Han at Endor respectively)

It wouldnt be about rank as much as seniority or postitional authority.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-11 02:09pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-03-11 12:30am
Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.
Out of universe, the reason for this is because Ackbar's voice actor passed away before filming.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-03-12 01:27am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-11 01:03pm
General and Admiral are generally equivilent ranks, just in different fields. Fleet Command vs Starfighter command vs ground forces. (Ackbar/Lando/Han at Endor respectively)

It wouldnt be about rank as much as seniority or postitional authority.
I think it is a mistake to think of the Rebellion/Alliance as a more or less conventional force with the trappings of an insurgency rather than the other way around. I feel it robs the universe of a certain depth of story telling potential, though I freely admit the authors and now directors waffle back and forth between the two at will. Maybe there is indeed a core of more conventional, high end capable materially, Alliance forces nestled in among the disparate and colorful Rebel cells scattered everywhere. Especially post Yavin where the victory prompted some more overt and respectable support to throw in with the Rebels. The development of the forces we see from Yavin to Endor suggest that, though Scarrif sort of torpedoes that notion.

That being said, I would be cautious assuming that General is some overarching rang, uniform in grade/qualification/experiance, across the media we see. It could simply be the Glorious People's Front of Tanaab declared Lando a General, and the Alliance as a whole just has to accept that as a price of keeping that cell within the fold. Not unlike how Estonia has general officers running around and they are accorded the same respect and courtesy as a US or German or UK flag officer, even though their entire military could fit under one of those other officer's personal commands.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-12 05:48pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-11 02:09pm
Patroklos wrote:
2018-03-11 12:30am
Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.
Out of universe, the reason for this is because Ackbar's voice actor passed away before filming.
Yeah. Ackbar's absence was pretty much the only option, unless they chose to recast the party (which many doubtless would have seen as disrespectful to the original actor).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-03-13 02:35pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-11 02:09pm
Patroklos wrote:
2018-03-11 12:30am
Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.
Out of universe, the reason for this is because Ackbar's voice actor passed away before filming.
They recasted Mon, which was far more difficult than recasting Ackbar (who, basically, is a dude in a custom). Seems the new book states he is senile (lovely nuCanon).

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-13 04:54pm

CaoCao wrote:
2018-03-13 02:35pm
Rogue 9 wrote:
2018-03-11 02:09pm
Patroklos wrote:
2018-03-11 12:30am
Though the fact Ackbar is sidelined is curious, even if he returned late to the party.
Out of universe, the reason for this is because Ackbar's voice actor passed away before filming.
They recasted Mon, which was far more difficult than recasting Ackbar (who, basically, is a dude in a custom). Seems the new book states he is senile (lovely nuCanon).
Then why the everloving holy fuck would he be in command of a starship at all? :wtf:
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf » 2018-03-13 04:57pm

Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-13 09:35pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-03-13 04:57pm
Same reason people like Reagan were in charge of the US militaries; politics and popularity?
Admiral isn't typically an elected position. :P
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