Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Patroklos
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2259
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-03-07 01:10pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-03-07 10:11am
I remembered I can buy ebooks on my iPhone, so I grabbed TLJ on my iPhone for $12.99. Pretty reasonable for a new release, way cheaper than a hardcover.

Of course, I went straight to the hyperdrive ramming part to see what Jason Fry wrote about it, given he foreshadowed it in an interview back in January.
Under ordinary operations, the presence of a sizeable object along the route betwen the Raddus' realspace position and its entry point into hyperspace would have caused the heavy cruiser's fail-safes to cut in and shut down the hyperdrive.

But with the fail-safes offline and the overrides activated, the proximity alerts were ignored. When the heavy crusier plowed into the Supremacy's broad flying wing, the force of the impact was at least three orders of magnitude greater than anything the Raddus's inertial dampeners were rated to handle. The protective field they generated failed immediately, but the heavy cruiser's experimental shields remained intact for a moment longer before the unimaginable force of the impact converted the Raddus into a column of plasma that consumed itself.

However, the Raddus had also accelerated to nearly the speed of light at the point of that catastrophic impact - and the column of plasma it became was hotter than a sun and intensely magnetized. This plasma was then hurled into hyperspace along a tunnel opened by the null quantum-field generator - a tunnel that collapsed as quickly as it had been opened.

Both the column of plasma and the hyperspace tunnel were gone in far less than an eye-blink, but that was long enough to rip through the Supremacy's hull from bow to stern, tear a ragged hole in a string of Star Destroyers flying in formation with it, and finally wink out of existence in empty space thousands of kilometres beyond the First Order task force.
So - yeah - it sounds like the Raddus's experimental shields stayed up long enough to ensure that the column of plasma that the Raddus became got thrown into a hyperspace tunnel, it sounds like?
So I appears I guessed it, what we see is a kinetic impact limited to the volume we see because it was all dragged into hyperspace. Which is fine mechanics wise to explain visually what we see (except the Resurgents), but nothing in the technobabble in any way invalidates the consequences to continuity.

1.) The experimental shield technobabble is entirely fluff. It doesn't matter if the mass of the Raddus is plasma or solid. At any significant fraction of c the energies of "hotter than the sun" are rounding errors compared the mass to energy conversions involved. They could have converted the Raddus to pure anti-matter and it would still not-matter. "Intensly magnitized" is just irrelevant.

2.) I do find it interesting that they can use a shield to basically create formed plasma jet perpetrators without the need of explosives. I am not sure how that would be useful in SW, but it is just an author's technobabble line away from exploitation.

3.) In one line we are told the entire mass of the Raddus is turned into plasma. In the next we are told a null quantum-field generator, presumably on the former Raddus, opened up a hyperspace tunnel. A quantum-field generator that is now plasma. Is it that Is the tunnel created before the jump, then left open to jump through? Well no, because they don't say that and they tell us its closed as quickly as its opened....

So we are now still left with SW capital ship shield and armor that is penetrated solely via a kinetic impactor. Maybe the "intensly magnetized" bit is to explain why the plasma ball is not dissipated to the stars at upwards of 5000m/s. I don't think they thought about it that much, so I will just say we have the same volume of mass as plasma in the original volume and shape of the solid state Raddus. Since TRR won't understand this, I will point out this is being charitable to the writer.

All of this is then dragged into hyperspace, which is why we don't see a massive explosion destroying everything in site but instead just what would have been destroyed in the actual hyperspace jump path. This leads me to the following observations.

1.) Kimetic R-bombs are the most effective capital ship weapons in SW. There is no reason they are not and have not been used in the thousands of years of technology stasis given how trivial accelerating objects to large fractions of c is.

2.) The experimental shield and the conversion of Raddus to plasma is irrelevant.

3.) We still don't know what the damage mode is. What I THINK the author wants us to believe is that the plasma impactor "vaporized all the matter it impacted with and simultaneously pushed it into hyperspace with it. However, if we are saying you can just open a hyperspace tunnel and matter within it will just disapear into hyperspace, why does it matter what form that matter is in? Obviously non plasma objects can enter hyperspace. We call them ships. So now the new effective weapon is not accelerating a mass to near c via hyperdrive and having them impact in real space before transitioning to hyperspace (though this is still an effective weapon), its just accelerating a bar bones hyperdrive (specifically a quantum field generator) bus towards a target and having its tunnel blink anything within it into hyperspace no matter what its made of, shielded or not. Sort of like using a laser to pierce through a target rather than a slug to just explode against the first mass it hits.

4.) The Resurgents still remain unexplained. The author describes the resurgent formation accompanying the Supremacy a a "string." And given the tunnel mechanism described should they have been in such a formation it is quite plausible that that tunnel could cover that entire length of them and then some given we are talking large fractions c. Unfortunately in the movie they are not in such a formation, and we explicitly see they are impacted by destructive forces off the line of Raddus's acceleration and impact with the Supremacy. Are we supposed to believe the Raddus quantum field generator opened brand new tunnels not only after already being plasma like before, but now plasma that has also impacted the Supremacy's mass already? I hope not. I still maintain that the best way to pull off what we see and have it make any sense is have this impact with Supremacy accelerate shrapnel into the escorts, but then their damage modes would just be explosions, not the same hyper tunneling effect as we see with Supremacy. It also means that matter would have had to escape from the tunneling through the Supremacy, not something I feel was intended as possible as described or else the Supremacy itself would have suffered the effects throughout its mass. We also have the unfortunate effect decision to have exactly one slice through each Resurgent. Thats way too specific, way to neat, for any plausible explanation.

Conclusions:

1.) This explains the visuals we see, EXCEPT the Resurgent. Which is unfortunate. I appreciate the effort, but like much else with this movie their pathological need gratuitous visuals prevents them from being resolved continuity wise. In an age when you can do anything with computers, I am unimpressed. Though it was pretty.

2.) No continuity issues are resolved with this explanation. Some new ones are created.

3.) I am pretty sure they wanted the experimental shield to be the crux of this explanation, and they failed miserably if that is the case. However, even if they didn't, its pretty clear that this would mean in universe nobody would know that it would lead to the result we see. That makes me wonder what Ms. Overdressed to Unimpress (OH NOES A COMMENT ON A MOVIE CHARACTERS WARDROBE!!!) actually thought would happen? Its quite possible she was just suiciding in an ineffectually selfish escape to avoid facing her failure and the judgment of her peers. BEST. FEMALE. MILITARY LEADER. CHARACTER. EVAR!!!! But seriously, it would solve the entire continuity issue if Holdo was expecting to be a gnat on a windshield and everybody was surprised at what happened. Alas, Holdo apologist would never entertain such sanity.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 04:00pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-06 11:40pm
trr I notice three things about your argument that I have to question first can you Source when Poe was asking for details about the plan not asking if there was a plan
First of all, your grammar is bordering on incoherency. But taking my best shot at what I think you're asking for (and apologies if I've misread you):

Right after Holdo's introductory speech, Poe confronts her asking if there is a plan, yes. Later, when he confronts her again, IIRC, she tells him about loading the crew onto transports, at which point he flips out at her, calls her a traitor, and shortly after mutinies.

He never asks her for details of the plan, no- and that's kind of my point. People are saying "well, Holdo didn't need to tell everyone the whole plan, but she should have told Poe something". My point is that when he finds out part of the plan, he just assumes Holdo is a traitor and never gives her the benefit of the doubt or a chance to even justify herself (not that an admiral is obliged to justify their battle plans to a captain).

This is just going from my recollections of the film. If you want quotes, it'll have to wait until after the DVD is out and someone puts the relevant clips up on Youtube.
second can you source how Poe was challenging and disrespecting and challenging her athority give me Elsa source that he had the details of the whole plan
First time he talks to her

I will not source the claim that he had details of her whole plan, because its not a claim that I ever made.
when Poe first saw transports?
Poe found out about the transports from Holdo on the bridge, IIRC. He then reacted in a predictably knee-jerk fashion.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-06 10:52pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-06 09:09pm
Jesus Christ, CaoCao. Your argument is one of the worst blends of dishonesty, defamation, broken-record debating, circular arguments, unsupported assertions, and flat-out ignoring both your opponent's arguments and canon evidence that I can recall ever seeing in an SF debate on this board.

I'm done. You can (and doubtless will) say that I'm quitting because I can't back up my arguments. But when I have posted multiple points that you have then misrepresented or ignored, while you continue to engage in broken record debating, I think I've done due diligence here.

And the false insinuation of plagiarism against me in the final paragraph makes this a matter for the moderators.

Reported for dishonest debating.
I know my response is a formatted mess, but I would like your response, as we appear to be having a civilized dialogue.
Gladly.

I'm not unwilling to debate the topic of Holdo's performance as an admiral- I'd just prefer to do it with people who don't appear to be debating in bad faith.

I've been busy, but I'll get back to you as soon as I can.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 04:53pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2018-03-06 12:41pm
Makes you wonder if Luke could sense Han's death, it was obviously not something that could be shown in TFA. I don't recall Rey telling Luke that Ren murdered him, such a revelation would have hit him harder since he wouldn't have known exactly how it happened, just that it had.
In TLJ, its revealed that Luke cut himself off from sensing the Force after Ben fell (until Rey showed up). So he probably couldn't feel it. Hence why he was surprised when the Falcon showed up without Han.
Just saw a crappy upload on youtube on the final battle, I couldn't help but notice that when Poe encounters BB-8 again in the base, he fusses over him like a bloody dog!
I can see people having as much affection for their droids as for their pets. Star Wars droids aren't just machines. They have personalities, and some are even sapient.

Plus Poe just seems like an overly-emotional person in general.
The whole run at the siege cannon though... because of the offset cabin (which is horrible design choice to begin with) you could have the body of the speeder disappearing into the barrel of the cannon while the cabin crashes off to one side. Finn travelling along the beam's path is beyond stupid, it's not as though he couldn't simply approach at a slight angle instead.
Yeah, that's a blunder. The only thing I can put it down to is that a) Finn wasn't thinking things through at the time, and b) Finn's training was in infantry, not piloting, so he's lucky he could fly the thing at all. :)
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
tezunegari
Padawan Learner
Posts: 477
Joined: 2008-11-13 12:44pm

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by tezunegari » 2018-03-07 05:03pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:00pm
[...]Right after Holdo's introductory speech, Poe confronts her asking if there is a plan, yes. Later, when he confronts her again, IIRC, she tells him about loading the crew onto transports, at which point he flips out at her, calls her a traitor, and shortly after mutinies.

He never asks her for details of the plan, no- and that's kind of my point. People are saying "well, Holdo didn't need to tell everyone the whole plan, but she should have told Poe something". My point is that when he finds out part of the plan, he just assumes Holdo is a traitor and never gives her the benefit of the doubt or a chance to even justify herself (not that an admiral is obliged to justify their battle plans to a captain).

This is just going from my recollections of the film. If you want quotes, it'll have to wait until after the DVD is out and someone puts the relevant clips up on Youtube.
At the first scene Poe recites the situation, possibly to bring the new commanding officer up to speed or to give her a chance to correct him, and he asks for orders ("I only want to know what's going on." which lead to her "You are impulsive, dangerous. And the last thing we need right now. Stick to your post and follow my orders." monologue). Yeah, which orders again?

We then got the Finn/Rose/Poe scenes where they talk about the hyperspace tracking and the how to evade it to get the fleet away. And I think C3PO was there and pointed out that Holdo won't agree with the plan.


At the second scene, after the last support craft is lost, Poe confronts Holdo.
Poe: "Holdo!"
Holdo: "Flyboy..."
Poe: "Flyboy maybe. We had a fleet. Now we are down to one ship and you told us nothing. TELL US THAT WE HAVE A PLAN! That there is hope."

She placated him with the "hope is like the sun" speech, which almost works until Poe sees a display over her shoulder that the transports were being fueled. That made him go bonkers. She then throws him of the bridge without addressing his reaction.
At this point he, and the audience, think that her plan is to abandon the Raddus... and it is implied that she wants to continue the flight in unshielded transports.

Poe then contacts Finn/Rose and Finn asks for more time.

At the third scene, Poe tells Holdo the Infiltration-plan. She is sceptical... and accuses him of endangering the whole Resistance. She then orders the evacuation of the cruiser. This... leads to Poe committing mutiny. And she never even attempts to tell them the plan.
Poe seals the bridge door only after Holdo starts her counter-mutiny.

Fourth scene... is in the transport with Leia, and Leia finally tells Poe about Krait. And Poe goes immediately: "That could work."
"Bring your thousands, I have my axe."
"Bring your cannons, I have my armor."
"Bring your mighty... I am my own champion."
Cue Unit-01 ramming half the Lance of Longinus down Adam's head and a bemused Gendo, "Wrong end, son."
Ikari Gendo, NGE Fanfiction "Standing Tall"

User avatar
PhoenixKnig
Padawan Learner
Posts: 167
Joined: 2017-08-28 10:34pm
Location: United States of America
Contact:

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-07 05:16pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:00pm
PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-06 11:40pm
trr I notice three things about your argument that I have to question first can you Source when Poe was asking for details about the plan not asking if there was a plan
First of all, your grammar is bordering on incoherency. But taking my best shot at what I think you're asking for (and apologies if I've misread you):

Right after Holdo's introductory speech, Poe confronts her asking if there is a plan, yes. Later, when he confronts her again, IIRC, she tells him about loading the crew onto transports, at which point he flips out at her, calls her a traitor, and shortly after mutinies.

He never asks her for details of the plan, no- and that's kind of my point. People are saying "well, Holdo didn't need to tell everyone the whole plan, but she should have told Poe something". My point is that when he finds out part of the plan, he just assumes Holdo is a traitor and never gives her the benefit of the doubt or a chance to even justify herself (not that an admiral is obliged to justify their battle plans to a captain).

This is just going from my recollections of the film. If you want quotes, it'll have to wait until after the DVD is out and someone puts the relevant clips up on Youtube.
second can you source how Poe was challenging and disrespecting and challenging her athority give me Elsa source that he had the details of the whole plan
First time he talks to her

I will not source the claim that he had details of her whole plan, because its not a claim that I ever made.
when Poe first saw transports?
Poe found out about the transports from Holdo on the bridge, IIRC. He then reacted in a predictably knee-jerk fashion.
Thank you for your reply, sorry on grammar talk to text is a bitch to straight out afterwards
Bullets always at the right away :kill:

User avatar
PhoenixKnig
Padawan Learner
Posts: 167
Joined: 2017-08-28 10:34pm
Location: United States of America
Contact:

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-07 05:24pm

tezunegari wrote:
2018-03-07 05:03pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:00pm
[...]Right after Holdo's introductory speech, Poe confronts her asking if there is a plan, yes. Later, when he confronts her again, IIRC, she tells him about loading the crew onto transports, at which point he flips out at her, calls her a traitor, and shortly after mutinies.

He never asks her for details of the plan, no- and that's kind of my point. People are saying "well, Holdo didn't need to tell everyone the whole plan, but she should have told Poe something". My point is that when he finds out part of the plan, he just assumes Holdo is a traitor and never gives her the benefit of the doubt or a chance to even justify herself (not that an admiral is obliged to justify their battle plans to a captain).

This is just going from my recollections of the film. If you want quotes, it'll have to wait until after the DVD is out and someone puts the relevant clips up on Youtube.
At the first scene Poe recites the situation, possibly to bring the new commanding officer up to speed or to give her a chance to correct him, and he asks for orders ("I only want to know what's going on." which lead to her "You are impulsive, dangerous. And the last thing we need right now. Stick to your post and follow my orders." monologue). Yeah, which orders again?

We then got the Finn/Rose/Poe scenes where they talk about the hyperspace tracking and the how to evade it to get the fleet away. And I think C3PO was there and pointed out that Holdo won't agree with the plan.


At the second scene, after the last support craft is lost, Poe confronts Holdo.
Poe: "Holdo!"
Holdo: "Flyboy..."
Poe: "Flyboy maybe. We had a fleet. Now we are down to one ship and you told us nothing. TELL US THAT WE HAVE A PLAN! That there is hope."

She placated him with the "hope is like the sun" speech, which almost works until Poe sees a display over her shoulder that the transports were being fueled. That made him go bonkers. She then throws him of the bridge without addressing his reaction.
At this point he, and the audience, think that her plan is to abandon the Raddus... and it is implied that she wants to continue the flight in unshielded transports.

Poe then contacts Finn/Rose and Finn asks for more time.

At the third scene, Poe tells Holdo the Infiltration-plan. She is sceptical... and accuses him of endangering the whole Resistance. She then orders the evacuation of the cruiser. This... leads to Poe committing mutiny. And she never even attempts to tell them the plan.
Poe seals the bridge door only after Holdo starts her counter-mutiny.

Fourth scene... is in the transport with Leia, and Leia finally tells Poe about Crait. And Poe goes immediately: "That could work."
That's closest what I thought I got, thank you
PS I found and fixed Krait to Crait for you
Bullets always at the right away :kill:

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 05:30pm

First, thank you for providing a more detailed outline of Holdo and Poe's actions and interactions. There's some stuff in here I'd forgotten, and is worth addressing:
tezunegari wrote:
2018-03-07 05:03pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:00pm
[...]Right after Holdo's introductory speech, Poe confronts her asking if there is a plan, yes. Later, when he confronts her again, IIRC, she tells him about loading the crew onto transports, at which point he flips out at her, calls her a traitor, and shortly after mutinies.

He never asks her for details of the plan, no- and that's kind of my point. People are saying "well, Holdo didn't need to tell everyone the whole plan, but she should have told Poe something". My point is that when he finds out part of the plan, he just assumes Holdo is a traitor and never gives her the benefit of the doubt or a chance to even justify herself (not that an admiral is obliged to justify their battle plans to a captain).

This is just going from my recollections of the film. If you want quotes, it'll have to wait until after the DVD is out and someone puts the relevant clips up on Youtube.
At the first scene Poe recites the situation, possibly to bring the new commanding officer up to speed or to give her a chance to correct him, and he asks for orders ("I only want to know what's going on." which lead to her "You are impulsive, dangerous. And the last thing we need right now. Stick to your post and follow my orders." monologue). Yeah, which orders again?
That's pretty close to what I recall.

As to Holdo not giving him additional orders: Presumably he had standing orders/duties. That said, there's not much he could do within the usual scope of his duties- he's a starfighter pilot and squadron commander, and all the fighters had been destroyed.
We then got the Finn/Rose/Poe scenes where they talk about the hyperspace tracking and the how to evade it to get the fleet away. And I think C3PO was there and pointed out that Holdo won't agree with the plan.
Keep in mind that they never asked Holdo. That was just C3PO's assessment.

You know, they could have asked Holdo, and if she rejected it, still gone ahead on their own. Instead, Poe decides on his own initiative to run a highly-dangerous unauthorized mission without consulting his superior officer. Which leads to the DJ debacle and the loss of most of the transports.

In short, Holdo's plan was actively undermined, in a manner that cost probably hundreds of lives, by Poe's actions.
At the second scene, after the last support craft is lost, Poe confronts Holdo.
Poe: "Holdo!"
Holdo: "Flyboy..."
Poe: "Flyboy maybe. We had a fleet. Now we are down to one ship and you told us nothing. TELL US THAT WE HAVE A PLAN! That there is hope."
That does confirm that Holdo did not inform Poe, or anyone Poe was in contact with (or, presumably, the crew generally) that she had a plan beyond continuing to run.

At the same time, one might argue that an admiral with prior combat experience and the confidence of General Leia deserved more benefit of the doubt, and that Poe leapt to conclusions that were not necessarily shared by the crew generally.
She placated him with the "hope is like the sun" speech, which almost works until Poe sees a display over her shoulder that the transports were being fueled. That made him go bonkers. She then throws him of the bridge without addressing his reaction.
Forgot that he oversaw the transports being loaded rather than being told directly, so I'll concede that particular point.

That said: do you think Poe was in a mood to listen, or that he gave Holdo a chance to explain or justify her plan before being openly combative and insubordinate?
At this point he, and the audience, think that her plan is to abandon the Raddus... and it is implied that she wants to continue the flight in unshielded transports.
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily prove that she is incompetent. Poe obviously thinks that, and because we are shown things from Poe's point of view, and what we are shown presents a partial picture that fits certain genre conventions, the audience is lead in that direction. With hindsight, we know that there was a lot more to Holdo's plan, and that Leia also approved of it.
Poe then contacts Finn/Rose and Finn asks for more time.

At the third scene, Poe tells Holdo the Infiltration-plan. She is sceptical... and accuses him of endangering the whole Resistance.
And we see in hindsight that she was absolutely correct in that assessment.
She then orders the evacuation of the cruiser. This... leads to Poe committing mutiny. And she never even attempts to tell them the plan.
Poe seals the bridge door only after Holdo starts her counter-mutiny.
So Holdo's culpability in the mutiny hinges on weather you feel and admiral is required to justify themselves to an insubordinate captain.

Note also that Poe was actively conspiring behind her back long before then (his plan with Finn and Rose, implemented almost immediately after Holdo took command).
Fourth scene... is in the transport with Leia, and Leia finally tells Poe about Krait. And Poe goes immediately: "That could work."
Yes, though I think Poe's trust in Leia personally probably plays a role there.

I'll acknowledge that Holdo was not as diplomatic as she could have been. And is perhaps somewhat lacking in natural charisma compared to some commanders. But Poe actively escalated and aggravated the situation, was not really willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and worked behind her back in a manner that actively impeded her plans (which likely would have made her less willing to confide in him or trust his judgement). And I maintain that Holdo had no reasonable obligation or responsibility to divulge her plans in such a situation to an insubordinate captain. She frankly had enough on her plate under those circumstances without having to placate captains who didn't understand their duty.

As to her plan itself: it was a long shot, maybe- but not necessarily more of a long shot than the alternatives, and the film shows that it likely would have worked fine without Poe's side plan inadvertently derailing everything.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
PhoenixKnig
Padawan Learner
Posts: 167
Joined: 2017-08-28 10:34pm
Location: United States of America
Contact:

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-07 05:42pm

One-point noting I do remember that Poe did not see the planet until after he was on a transport, and started the mutiny because he thought she was going to deep space the lot
Bullets always at the right away :kill:

User avatar
PhoenixKnig
Padawan Learner
Posts: 167
Joined: 2017-08-28 10:34pm
Location: United States of America
Contact:

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-07 05:44pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-07 05:42pm
One-point noting I do remember that Poe did not see the planet until after he was on a transport, and started the mutiny because he thought she was going to deep space the lot when Poe 1st saw the transports
Bullets always at the right away :kill:

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 05:49pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-07 05:42pm
One-point noting I do remember that Poe did not see the planet until after he was on a transport, and started the mutiny because he thought she was going to deep space the lot
Kind of odd, that. While I could buy Poe being ignorant since he seems to be effectively off-duty, I'd expect that some of the crew would know that there is a planet there- at a certain range, it would be visible out windows to the naked eye, but even before then, it would be easily detectable on scanners- its not as thought the planet's cloaked. :lol:

It does make Poe's conclusion that Holdo is a traitor a little more understandable. But him reaching that conclusion is also realistically going to make Holdo far less likely to try to explain things to him, and him far less likely that he'd listen if she did.

And I don't think that it is unreasonable for Holdo to keep details of her plans close to her chest during an immediate crisis where there is reason to believe that a spy is aboard (no, this is never stated in the film, and it probably ought to have been- but its an obvious conclusion to reach). Much less explain herself to an overtly insubordinate officer.

And I'll note, again, that Poe was deliberately going behind her back and undermining her authority long before that point.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6387
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 05:57pm

I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
Image

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10236
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-07 06:10pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 06:23pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
I too would like to see a stronger case for this assertion.

In any case, I am not basing my conclusions about Holdo's likely record and reputation simply on her rank- Poe refers to her when she first shows up as being a veteran of some prior engagement, and notes that he's disappointed by her in person. Which indicates that she has combat experience, and performed well enough for Poe to have a positive opinion of her reputation.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

CaoCao
Youngling
Posts: 51
Joined: 2017-06-15 08:48pm

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by CaoCao » 2018-03-07 07:32pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-06 09:09pm
Jesus Christ, CaoCao. Your argument is one of the worst blends of dishonesty, defamation, broken-record debating, circular arguments, unsupported assertions, and flat-out ignoring both your opponent's arguments and canon evidence that I can recall ever seeing in an SF debate on this board.

I'm done. You can (and doubtless will) say that I'm quitting because I can't back up my arguments. But when I have posted multiple points that you have then misrepresented or ignored, while you continue to engage in broken record debating, I think I've done due diligence here.

And the false insinuation of plagiarism against me in the final paragraph makes this a matter for the moderators.

Reported for dishonest debating.
And you couldn't end it without insults and trying someone else to shut whom you can't mob with epithets. Calling someone alt-right or sexist is not honest debate, mind you. You even didn't remember key parts of the movie discussed. Oh, well.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27058
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2018-03-07 07:38pm

Both of you simmer the fuck down; that last post, CaoCao, is without content other than discussing TRRs conduct; please don't do that again.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:00pm

As I indicated, it is my intention to ignore any further posts from CaoCao on this subject (unless instructed by a moderator to respond to them). Experience has taught me that continuing that sort of discussion will likely lead to thread derailment, and that the surest way to avoid that outcome is to step away.

I have and will continue to address any critiques of my arguments from others. At the same time, keep in mind that since I am engaged in debate with several people at once, some replies may be delayed or repetitive.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6387
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 08:04pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:10pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
Opposite is too strong a word, it's not solely based on merit.

Han Solo was promoted to General due to his affiliation with Leia and Luke, while he was frozen in Carbonite. Leia's own initial rank comes from her adoptive father's founding of the Rebellion, his rank comes from his wife's royalty. Ackbar's supreme rank due to the Mon Calamari bringing in the majority of ships from their world into the Rebel Alliance.

This is due to the cell structure of the Alliance, but it shows that resources and connections count for a lot in the Alliance.
Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:21pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:04pm
Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-07 06:10pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:57pm
I do need to point out that you are assuming that rank in the Resistance is gained by merit, and not resources brought to the table, which is the opposite of how the Rebellion worked, so logically the Resistance works the same and rank is based on resources brought to the table. So reverence for Holdo's rank may not be a given.
Can you elaborate on this please? I dont think this has been established anywhere.
Opposite is too strong a word, it's not solely based on merit.
While we'd like to think otherwise, I think this is a trait of most human systems and organizations, to one degree or another. Connections count.

That said, the Rebellion tended to promote people who might have had connections, but also had skills to go with them.
Han Solo was promoted to General due to his affiliation with Leia and Luke, while he was frozen in Carbonite.
No doubt his connections played a role, but Han was also an ace pilot, former Imperial officer, a skilled fighter, a hero of Yavin (ie, he literally helped save the entire Rebellion), and had also helped Leia escape from Imperial capture at Hoth. He was a certified hero. The only real point against him was his reluctance to commit to the fight due to his debt to Jabba, a problem which disappeared after Jabba bought it.
Leia's own initial rank comes from her adoptive father's founding of the Rebellion, his rank comes from his wife's royalty.
This appears to be the case, yes. Although I don't think that Leia had a military rank initially. She was just "princess", in a more diplomatic role to which her position and upbringing likely made her well-suited.

Her general-hood in the ST is well-merited by her history, I'd say.
Ackbar's supreme rank due to the Mon Calamari bringing in the majority of ships from their world into the Rebel Alliance.
While I question Ackbar's qualifications for the rank of admiral, he was undoubtably qualified for a high military rank as a general, given his service and combat record in the Clone Wars.
This is due to the cell structure of the Alliance, but it shows that resources and connections count for a lot in the Alliance.
Undoubtably, though there are clearly other factors.

As an aside, this is not (historically, at least) limited to just militias- during the Civil War, for example, Lincoln appointed or retained generals who were less than fully competent for political reasons.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6387
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 08:30pm

I assume you see my point though. They have a track record of promotions based on resources and connections. A political necessity, but one that puts the wrong people in charge, as we witness with Holdo.
Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:39pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:30pm
I assume you see my point though. They have a track record of promotions based on resources and connections. A political necessity, but one that puts the wrong people in charge, as we witness with Holdo.
I still see that you have not actually provided any evidence that Holdo was a political appointee, beyond repeating the assertion that she is incompetent. Which comes off as circular, ie: "She's incompetent because she's a political appointee. We know she's a political appointee because she's incompetent."

That she has aristocratic/political connections (aside from the obvious- being friends with Leia) is not implausible, but it does not prove that she is also unfit for her job, and in any case it should be backed up with more substantive evidence. Almost nothing of Holdo's background is stated in the film.

If its stated in some EU source I haven't read, fair enough, but then, cite it.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5954
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 08:47pm

Holdo's portrayal certainly didn't help my impression of her. She would have immediately been more credible with me if she'd been in uniform and didn't have purple anime hair. Sure, it's a superficial judgment of her character, but we're talking about a work of fiction here and presentation matters.

Maybe the EU will tell us more about her some day.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:52pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:47pm
Holdo's portrayal certainly didn't help my impression of her. She would have immediately been more credible with me if she'd been in uniform and didn't have purple anime hair. Sure, it's a superficial judgment of her character, but we're talking about a work of fiction here and presentation matters.
Oh, I agree that her appearance will pre-dispose a lot of people to think poorly of her leadership. That may even be part of the film's deliberate misdirection of the audience, possibly.

However, I also agree that its a superficial judgement, and that her performance is ultimately the more important criteria.

And, while I don't think there's anything inherently sexist about your criticism here, well... there's a lot of history around appearance being used to attack female leaders (and women generally). So be wary of "unfortunate implications".

Then again, Leia doesn't get flak for not wearing a uniform (or at least not nearly as much), so the uniform criticism at least comes off more as OT bias than gender bias.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6387
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-03-07 09:01pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 08:39pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:30pm
I assume you see my point though. They have a track record of promotions based on resources and connections. A political necessity, but one that puts the wrong people in charge, as we witness with Holdo.
I still see that you have not actually provided any evidence that Holdo was a political appointee, beyond repeating the assertion that she is incompetent. Which comes off as circular, ie: "She's incompetent because she's a political appointee. We know she's a political appointee because she's incompetent."

That she has aristocratic/political connections (aside from the obvious- being friends with Leia) is not implausible, but it does not prove that she is also unfit for her job, and in any case it should be backed up with more substantive evidence. Almost nothing of Holdo's background is stated in the film.

If its stated in some EU source I haven't read, fair enough, but then, cite it.
As pointed out, her lack of morale building, delegation, tactics, and most importantly, crisis management, lead to the allegations that she is incompetent. The lack of uniform, and seeming inability to keep discipline or structure with her crew without getting the majority of her fleet destroyed, her crew mutinying, or having a sizable portion attempting to desert presents other proof of incompetence.

Her being a political appointee and/or paperpusher is the most probable reason for her lack of ability. However, she is not alone in lacking competence, as demonstrated by Hux's stupidity and Poe's lack of ComSec.
Image

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13992
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 09:12pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-07 09:01pm
As pointed out, her lack of morale building, delegation, tactics, and most importantly, crisis management, lead to the allegations that she is incompetent. The lack of uniform, and seeming inability to keep discipline or structure with her crew without getting the majority of her fleet destroyed, her crew mutinying, or having a sizable portion attempting to desert presents other proof of incompetence.
Alright, let's take those charges one at a time:

Lack of morale building. She delivers a speech to try to inspire the crew when she takes over (the reasons for not revealing the specifics of her plans have been gone over and over). Subsequently she fails to address Poe's concerns, but we don't really know how she interacted with every member of the crew. I'll acknowledge that she may not be the most naturally charismatic or inspiring officer. But its a long way from that to "incompetent".

I will also acknowledge that she did little to defuse the situation with Poe. But will point out that she had no reason given the circumstances to humour him, was probably busy with other shit, and that Poe did little to try to defuse the situation either.

Lack of delegation. This seems to come out of nowhere, unless you are simply assuming/asserting (without proof) that Holdo informed no one of her plans and passed no instructions on to any of her subordinates. This is, at best, unproven due to insufficient evidence.

Poor tactics. We've debated this point at length. You have proposed possible alternative strategies, and I have raised potentially fatal objections to all of them.

The only thing we do know for certain, based on on-screen evidence, is that Holdo's plan was working until DJ turned his coat. Do you acknowledge that?

Poor crisis management. Since you emphasize this as your most important point, I'd appreciate it if you define in more specific detail what you mean by a lack of crisis management, and why you feel Holdo is guilty of it.

Lack of uniform. Virtually a tradition in the Rebellion/Resistance (which as you claim, is not a professional military). This is not a valid point against her competency unless you want to level similar accusations against Leia, Han, the protagonists of Rebels, Luke Skywalker, etc.

Lack of maintaining discipline/loyalty among the crew. You appear to be portraying the mutiny as a general uprising by the crew, rather than the actions of a few disgruntled individuals that was quickly put down. That contradicts on-screen evidence, as I already have gone over repeatedly in this thread.

We also have no clear idea of the number of desertions overall, or as a percentage of the total crew.
Her being a political appointee and/or paperpusher is the most probable reason for her lack of ability. However, she is not alone in lacking competence, as demonstrated by Hux's stupidity and Poe's lack of ComSec.
And Poe's blatant insubordination, and Poe's lack of understanding of the priorities of an insurgency, and Poe's lack of emotional self-control...

Edited to add underlining and address the point about crew discipline.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 5954
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 09:35pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 08:52pm
Then again, Leia doesn't get flak for not wearing a uniform (or at least not nearly as much), so the uniform criticism at least comes off more as OT bias than gender bias.
Leia proved herself in combat though, while Holdo was a complete unknown to us. Leia also wore more practical attire when she was actually stationed on Hoth and Home One.

Post Reply