Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-27 09:15am

If I may add something to the Poe Holdo debate
Was it really Poe's plan or just one he just ok an plan
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-03-27 10:42am

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-27 09:15am
If I may add something to the Poe Holdo debate
Was it really Poe's plan or just one he just ok an plan
Can you rephrase that, please? I'm not sure what you mean.

Poe's plan was really more of brainstorm between him, Rose and Finn but I'm pretty sure he proposed the steal a craft and do an end run around Holdo part of it. He was also the one that blabbed over the radio.

Holdo meanwhile, I'm not sure she formulated 'her plan' either. Leia was in charge for the jump to the system and the initial dash towards Crait. IIRC all Holdo really did was hold the course on Leia's plan.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2018-03-27 12:50pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-03-27 10:42am
PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-27 09:15am
If I may add something to the Poe Holdo debate
Was it really Poe's plan or just one he just ok an plan
Can you rephrase that, please? I'm not sure what you mean.

Poe's plan was really more of brainstorm between him, Rose and Finn but I'm pretty sure he proposed the steal a craft and do an end run around Holdo part of it. He was also the one that blabbed over the radio.

Holdo meanwhile, I'm not sure she formulated 'her plan' either. Leia was in charge for the jump to the system and the initial dash towards Crait. IIRC all Holdo really did was hold the course on Leia's plan.
Rephrase that: I was asking was it Poe's plan or he 'just run with it'
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-03-28 11:36am

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2018-03-27 12:50pm
Rephrase that: I was asking was it Poe's plan or he 'just run with it'
He probably just ran with it. Finn came up with the idea to infiltrate the FO flagship to disable to tracker. Maz referred them to the slicer on Canto Bight, but Finn was probably the one who thought to call Maz since there's nothing to suggest that Poe or Rose ever met her. Poe's only real role is that he stayed behind to keep an eye on what was going on with the fleet and possibly cover for Rose and Finn (though that last part wasn't apparently needed in practice, since no one seemed to notice that they were gone). It's probably closer to say that it was Finn's plan.

As a side note, the fact that no one on the fleet seems to notice Rose's absence, implying that she's regarded as some invisible grunt by the organization, doesn't really mesh well with the supplemental material crediting her with basically inventing the cloaking tech on the transports. You'd think the Resistance would at the very least want to keep an eye on her, to make sure nothing bad happens to her.

Also, Honest Trailer for The Last Jedi dropped yesterday. The main theme is using the current and original voice guys to illustrate how the fandom is split over the movie.


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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-04-15 05:09pm


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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-22 07:18pm

I popped back in thanks to the hyperdrive ramming thread, and since I'm here, and this thread hasn't been dead for too long, I suppose its only fair that I address your points reg. Holdo.
Kojiro wrote:
2018-03-26 06:43pm
I would just like to point out a few things.

First, the film gives us no indication Holdo has a record of success, only that she was present at a given battle. I don't know if that means she won a great victory or just got more people out when a slaughter was expected. I don't even know if she's not being mentioned for an infamous act or not. Had he survived, people could have said 'Oh yeah that's Porkins, from the Battle of Yavin' but if all he did was get clipped and bug out that means jack shit.
I'm basing that conclusion on two things: first, that Poe recognizes her name from a prior engagement, in a manner that at least suggests that she did something notable. And second, that he expresses disappointment (I forget his exact words- something along the lines of her not being what he expected?) after seeing her in person, which suggests that whatever she did, it wasn't "Fuck things up spectacularly". So at the very least, she has a combat record Poe is familiar with, and not one that would immediately lead him to think "Yeah, she's a fuck up."

She could be an idiot who lucked out, I suppose, or her notability might be due to something other than tactical/strategic/leadership skill (like she was a junior officer who engaged in some act of courage/heroism in combat, but not one necessarilly denoting great intelligence). But the most straightforward and likely interpretation is that the film intended her to be a seasoned commander.
Secondly, she's clearly not making an effort to preserve her personnel.
Her entire plan (or, as noted subsequently in the thread, possibly Leia's plan) throughout the film amounted to "Sacrifice the ships to buy time to save the personnel."
This is, I think, one of the most dishonest parts of the storytelling. The captain of the medical frigate is left behind to die for absolutely no good reason. No autopilot is set, no droid is left to pilot the ship isn't even just left unattented- he stays behind because....? This is really just exploiting the 'captain goes down with the ship' trope, which makes sense when the chance for survival is limited. Not enough room on the lifeboats? Fine, captain stays, whatever. But this is intentionally used to trick us, because in this instance that's simply not the case. The Raddus is grotesquely undermanned and experienced captains are a valuable resource. This is where Holdo's depiction turns really stinky to me. She could have easily ordered that captain to jump on one of the transports and head over, but she let him die. It's hard to see that as 'preserving personnel'.
I've gone over this already with Fax_Modem, I believe, but I might as well readdress it.

From what I recall of the film's dialogue for that scene, I think that they had only just finished the evacuation when the ship went up, so its not like the captain stayed and pointlessly died after his crew was safe. Now, they could have left the bridge running on drone mode, maybe- but what happens if there's a malfunction and someone needs to take manual control? In addition to the general cultural wariness Star Wars seems to have of relying on drone ships (they certainly have the technology for them, yet nearly all ships are manned).

So someone has to stay on the bridge. The captain doing it himself, rather than abandoning ship and ordering a subordinate to stay and die in his place, is expected. If he had been shown to have abandoned his post, the audience would rightly interpret that as cowardice and dereliction of duty.

It can also be taken, out of universe, as possibly foreshadowing Holdo staying behind on the Raddus while her crew evacuates.

No, we don't see all those reasons for the captain to stay play out on-screen, but its a logical inference. The audience is given partial information, yes. That may lead to a false conclusion, yes. But I don't see that in itself as "dishonest", really. In fact, its basically the only way to make a plot twist happen without actually lying to the audience.
More over, this is done in service to fooling the audience (and to some degree no doubt Poe) who are naturally going to assume the captain died because there was no better alternative. Holdo was so dead set on keeping her OpSec she let this guy die to preserve the illusion there was no plan. That's at least the medical frigate- there's another death on her hands if her old ship the Ninka likewise went down with a captain. We don't get a goodbye scene, only some transports arriving at the Raddus so who knows there. Point remains there was no good reason to let the captain die other than to fool Poe/the audience into believing there was no plan.
This is what I mean about people taking the most negative possible interpretation of the film.

I'm willing to bet that in almost any other film, the captain's death would have been accepted as a heroic, tragic sacrifice by an officer who stayed at his post until his crew was safe. Not as an example of incompetence. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, certainly... but I rarely, if ever, have seen a film subjected to such relentless nitpicking and hair-splitting.

"Captain goes down with his ship while his crew are evacuated, therefore Holdo has no concern about preserving the lives of her personnel" is a really tenuous interpretation, even before you get into the fact that it directly contradicts more explicit on-screen evidence of Holdo's/Leia's intent.
As a side note, Rose is supposedly the one who creates and fits the shuttles with cloaks- something she clearly did before heading to Canto Bight (or being stuck on deserter watch). This is, however, never mentioned or brought up, not even when Poe 'spills the bean' over the communications. Which means a few things. One, DJ has no way of knowing the ships are cloaked or to inform the First Order of such.
If it is correct that DJ had no way of knowing it, then that's a questionable plot point, yeah. I'll have to re-watch the film to check weather that is the case.

He could still have said "There are ships here, better do a high-intensity scan/check for cloaked ships". But it is a little weaker, yeah.
Two, Rose is a fucking idiot for not telling Poe "oh she had me rig up cloaks on those" because that is a MAJOR fucking change in circumstance- more importantly it implies Holdo has a plan. But we can't have the audience thinking that, so we get Holdo saying nothing, captains dying, Rose remaining silent and DJ pulling shit out of his ass.
I'm not sure how much I'd fault Rose, really, given that a) she had a lot of other shit on her mind and spent very little time communicating with Poe, and b) more importantly, that information was likely classified (and pretty clearly something Poe was not authorized to know).
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-26 06:47pm
TRR, shame that you're taking a break from the forum. Hopefully we can continue this when you return.

Regarding Holdo's background:

Going by the film itself, unless it's meant to be a cultural or planetary thing, all we know is that she was in a previous battle, and that visually, as used to convey things in Star Wars, she wears non-practical clothing, has time to dye her hair (unless that's supposed to be her natural color), and doesn't brief her officers. That's the reason it gives off a bad impression. She comes off as more of a foil to Leia, in how not to lead, when we were given examples of Leia's leadership at the beginning, where she addressed her people's concerns immediately, which made them move on to being productive.

Yes, this is all set up for the twist regarding Poe's lack of perspective, but as stated, it makes the audience regard her plan as not well thought out.
I agree that the film was giving partial information to mislead the audience, in order to set up a twist. That's obvious. The problem, in part, is that people are taking the set-up as canon and ignoring the subsequent twist.

As to Holdo's appearance, if "wears non-practical clothing" is a measure of poor command ability, then Leia is incompetent as well. Granted, Holdo's outfit is not what I would recommend for an admiral, but at the same time, and admiral is generally not going to be engaging in strenuous physical activity. They're going to be sitting/standing on a starship bridge.

This is also sensitive ground, because while you've made it clear that this is not your motivation, there is a long history of female leaders being denigrated based on their appearance. So its easy to stray into "unfortunate implications" territory when using Holdo's clothing and hair to critique her as a leader or character.

I will also reiterate that we don't know that Holdo briefed none of the officers, and in fact have some reason to believe that she did brief some people (the crews prepping the transports) on at least part of her plan. She didn't brief Poe, and I would contend she had no good reason to under the circumstances (at least from her point of view). But this is another example of the audience being given partial information, so I'm not sure we can really say how many people were kept in the loop, unless the EU deigns to comment on it.
Now, as you are pointing out, Starfighter escort.

We see Finn and Rose leave without taking one of the escorts. If they're really needed to cover the Raddus, as mentioned, Finn and Rose are able to bring in refueling and reinforcements without taking them.
Yes, although the ship they took was fairly small, and the fuel and personnel it could have taken were quite limited, and the vessel might have been better used to evacuate personnel and equipment with the other transports.

Its not a bad plan, though, or at least it has no obvious glaring flaws.
Even if Mon Mothma's peace at any price plan was her way to re-election, it thematically ruins what the heroes accomplished. It also makes both the heroes and the villains seem less dangerous due to idiocy.

Sure, in-universe, there might be a wave of peaceniks screaming to disarm the New Republic military, but thematically, it points to the heroes having failed at saving the day. And the only reason this is a factor is to justify Holdo's plan of being fired on for a day to hide. Its not a logical progression of story, but one used to justify bad writing.
I'm pretty sure that the NR being gone was going to happen either way, in order to facilitate a return to the Empire vs. Rebels type of conflict. That's a questionable decision, but its not a product of the Holdo plotline (which has some questionable plot-points, but no more than a lot of SF battles, I think).

And yes, I think an NR peace movement makes sense in-universe, especially given the pressure the NR would be under to differentiate itself from the Empire's style of government. Nor do I think that this means that the OT heroes failed to save the day. They just failed to save it permanently. History doesn't end. That's life. Its shitty, but its life. And also an inevitability if you want to have sequels. :wink:
There should be something left of the New Republic to run to. But since the ST is so bad at world building, it comes off as either the New Republic being idiots, or the Resistance leadership.
Clearly there are some factions that aren't completely subjugated by the FO- that's who Leia calls to for help. But in Leia's place, I'd be really wary about running to NR worlds for aid, given that the government pretty much has to be riddled with collaborators, as well as those who would view the Resistance as terrorists who fought an unsanctioned war and brought the FO's wrath down on the Republic.
Regarding morale:

Yes, Holdo had less than a day, Leia seemed to have less than fifteen minutes, and addressed morale better. I understand that we're being bamboozled by the film, but as I stated, it leaves the impression that she doesn't know what she's doing.

Even if Poe is a moron when it comes to tactics, delegation of some responsibility, even if it's clearing the loading bays, or working triage, would keep him busy, and take weight off her shoulders. Even if those are already covered, sending him there would help speed things up.

A simple: 'Poe, get us reinforcements, I don't care how, I'll work on the rest' would have worked.

It could also be argued that Poe was working on Leia's original plan of disabling the tracking, and Holdo and Poe never communicated about it due to them butting heads.
Again, we don't really see how Holdo interacted with the crew in general. We see how she interacted with Leia (briefly), and with Poe.

I'll acknowledge she made no real effort to address Poe's concerns, and treated him dismissively at times. I'll also point out that most admirals in a crisis would likely have little concern for soothing a single insubordinate, recently demoted officer who questions their leadership.

I do like the idea that both Poe and Holdo were working on different aspects of Leia's plan, and clashed due to a failure of communication.
This is why morale and relations are important in a militia. And I understand that things are chaotic, but a 30 second general brief might have worked. Old plan and new plan fighting each other to the detriment of the planners.
A general briefing would have been a security risk, unless it was so vague that it would have been unlikely to allay Poe's concerns.
Regarding FO stupidity:

If having the villains HAVE to be idiots for the heroes to not die is a plot requirement, then the story needs a redraft. Poe's little 'prank call' sabotages the idea that the First Order is a threat, as Leia should have broadcast to the First Order fleet that she has their collective noses, and they better surrender if they want them back.

As shown in my previous posts, you can have the First Order outwitted by the Resistance, without making both sides look bad for not grasping obvious solutions.
The villains should not be utter buffoons in a film where they are meant to be threatening, but if your villains have significantly more resources than the heroes, then the only way the heroes can win is luck, or greater competency. The latter, to me, is generally more satisfying. So there has to be some competency gap.

The call to Hux was taking it too far, I agree. It was ham-fisted filmmaking, and a poor note to start the film on.

Kylo is handled better- he is often inept due to his emotional instability and insecurities, but is also allowed to show moments of genuine creativity and savvy- like his successful assassination of Snoke, or having the sense to throw all available firepower at Luke rather than pull his punches or immediately resort to a one-on-one duel.

That said, I like that the ST generally avoids making fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass". That's not a message society needs to hear.
Regarding theme:

Luke rectifying the belief that it's the poor dying while the rich gamble. If that's the intention, it didn't connect with me. Instead, it came off as a failed Hail Mary, and that instead, at best, we'll get a children's Jedi crusade. Maybe it's a failure of mine to pick it up, but I also believe that the various subplots were supposed to connect to each other in theme, as opposed to just sit by each other, and sabotage each other.

Maybe IX will tie things together better.
I didn't take the kid using the Force at the end as "The next film is going to have an army of little kid Jedi emerging because of Luke's sacrifice." Because that would be insane. I take it simply as a symbolic nod to (in-universe) Luke's death inspiring future generations, and (out-of-universe) an acknowledgement of Star Wars as a franchise that is beloved by children, and hopes that the films will be appreciated by a new generation of fans. Its symbolism, not a plot point.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-04-22 09:22pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-22 07:18pm
So at the very least, she has a combat record Poe is familiar with, and not one that would immediately lead him to think "Yeah, she's a fuck up."
What it fails to establish though is why Poe should trust her in light of her actions. He's not instantly mutinous, he certainly gives her a chance, but she doesn't deliver. He is the one who just destroyed Starkiller base yesterday- his credit is good, as is his standing with the character we know is a good guy- Leia. Hers is much more dubious and Poe's mutiny should indicate her record is not that impressive. It's part of the bait and switch.
But the most straightforward and likely interpretation is that the film intended her to be a seasoned commander.
The Resistance isn't so big that Leia's top operative, their best pilot and their starfighter commander shouldn't have met her. Again, more bait.
Her entire plan (or, as noted subsequently in the thread, possibly Leia's plan) throughout the film amounted to "Sacrifice the ships to buy time to save the personnel."

From what I recall of the film's dialogue for that scene, I think that they had only just finished the evacuation when the ship went up, so its not like the captain stayed and pointlessly died after his crew was safe. Now, they could have left the bridge running on drone mode, maybe- but what happens if there's a malfunction and someone needs to take manual control? In addition to the general cultural wariness Star Wars seems to have of relying on drone ships (they certainly have the technology for them, yet nearly all ships are manned).

So someone has to stay on the bridge. The captain doing it himself, rather than abandoning ship and ordering a subordinate to stay and die in his place, is expected. If he had been shown to have abandoned his post, the audience would rightly interpret that as cowardice and dereliction of duty.
Sorry but that's all incorrect.

They have at least one astromech on board that can certainly pilot a ship assuming the ships can't be left to just fly straight (like when we see Holdo watching the shuttles leave. And remember, these ships are supposed to be heavily automated as well.

NOTHING prevents them from evacuating the Ninka before it runs out of fuel, or from the captain abandoning ship on Holdo's orders. The ship doomed, he's ordered to move to the Raddus. Done, he's following orders- you know saving lives that don't have to needlessly die? I'm sure that came up somewhere in this film... not throwing lives away or something... Following your commanding officer is the very antithesis of dereliction of duty and no one things leaving a doomed ship is cowardice, it's 2018, not 1918. And shit, it's not like Leia stayed behind right?

But Holdo doesn't tell him to come over or leave it to a droid. She let's him die to preserver the impression there is no better option. I do not know how you can say, with a straight face, she's trying to preserve valuable crew while simultaneously allowing her XO to die. And let's actually address that for a moment- the guy is *not* the captain of the Ninka, that's Holdo. If Holdo wanted him off the bridge, it's her bridge, even if she is currently on the Raddus.
It can also be taken, out of universe, as possibly foreshadowing Holdo staying behind on the Raddus while her crew evacuates.
Foreshadowing dumb doesn't make it not dumb.
No, we don't see all those reasons for the captain to stay play out on-screen, but its a logical inference. The audience is given partial information, yes. That may lead to a false conclusion, yes. But I don't see that in itself as "dishonest", really. In fact, its basically the only way to make a plot twist happen without actually lying to the audience.
Because there is no reason- that's why the XO dying is dishonest. With no reason for it given, a man *dies*, gives his life and Holdo does nothing to prevent it when she clearly could have. We know people don't die for shits and giggles and we're supposed to be seeing the heroes. If they let someone die they had no other options. Johnson rests on that simply concept to deceive the audience into thinking there are no options. It's not a twist unless you want to say 'heroes don't let heroes die without reason' is an assumption the audience shouldn't be making.
I'm willing to bet that in almost any other film, the captain's death would have been accepted as a heroic, tragic sacrifice by an officer who stayed at his post until his crew was safe. Not as an example of incompetence. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, certainly... but I rarely, if ever, have seen a film subjected to such relentless nitpicking and hair-splitting.
Don't backslide into this. Argue the points, please. The XO's death was seen as a heroic, tragic sacrifice while people believed there was no better option. Once it's revealed a better option exists- and not one that if found later but planned all along- his actions become tragic and wasteful.
"Captain goes down with his ship while his crew are evacuated, therefore Holdo has no concern about preserving the lives of her personnel" is a really tenuous interpretation, even before you get into the fact that it directly contradicts more explicit on-screen evidence of Holdo's/Leia's intent.
Sorry but you can't have her concerned about saving her people and letting her people (and herself!) die when they don't need to. We see that the Raddus can happily fly along without anyone at the helm and we know from basic physics that it doesn't take a whole fucking lot to just keep going straight in space. Or you know, astromechs? Autopilots are a thing too. The ships absolutely do not need a living person on them, unless you can provide some evidence of this?
I'm not sure how much I'd fault Rose, really, given that a) she had a lot of other shit on her mind and spent very little time communicating with Poe, and b) more importantly, that information was likely classified (and pretty clearly something Poe was not authorized to know).
She's in on the whole planning and vid call to Maz. Hell she helps form the plan, as well as consenting to go on it. She's abandoning her post, going behind Holdo's back and supporting Poe. I think we can safely say she's thrown in with Finn and Poe at this point. Consider also that the same transports were used to ferry personnel to the Raddus without being picked off (a task we know the FO are quite capable of).
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-24 02:05am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-22 07:18pm
I popped back in thanks to the hyperdrive ramming thread, and since I'm here, and this thread hasn't been dead for too long, I suppose its only fair that I address your points reg. Holdo.
First off, welcome back. I enjoy our discussions.
I've gone over this already with Fax_Modem, I believe, but I might as well readdress it.

From what I recall of the film's dialogue for that scene, I think that they had only just finished the evacuation when the ship went up, so its not like the captain stayed and pointlessly died after his crew was safe. Now, they could have left the bridge running on drone mode, maybe- but what happens if there's a malfunction and someone needs to take manual control? In addition to the general cultural wariness Star Wars seems to have of relying on drone ships (they certainly have the technology for them, yet nearly all ships are manned).

So someone has to stay on the bridge. The captain doing it himself, rather than abandoning ship and ordering a subordinate to stay and die in his place, is expected. If he had been shown to have abandoned his post, the audience would rightly interpret that as cowardice and dereliction of duty.

It can also be taken, out of universe, as possibly foreshadowing Holdo staying behind on the Raddus while her crew evacuates.

No, we don't see all those reasons for the captain to stay play out on-screen, but its a logical inference. The audience is given partial information, yes. That may lead to a false conclusion, yes. But I don't see that in itself as "dishonest", really. In fact, its basically the only way to make a plot twist happen without actually lying to the audience.
Kojiro handled this well, but I will reiterate, they had better options, which makes the 'heroic sacrifices' an utterly pointless waste of resources.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-03-26 06:47pm
TRR, shame that you're taking a break from the forum. Hopefully we can continue this when you return.

Regarding Holdo's background:

Going by the film itself, unless it's meant to be a cultural or planetary thing, all we know is that she was in a previous battle, and that visually, as used to convey things in Star Wars, she wears non-practical clothing, has time to dye her hair (unless that's supposed to be her natural color), and doesn't brief her officers. That's the reason it gives off a bad impression. She comes off as more of a foil to Leia, in how not to lead, when we were given examples of Leia's leadership at the beginning, where she addressed her people's concerns immediately, which made them move on to being productive.

Yes, this is all set up for the twist regarding Poe's lack of perspective, but as stated, it makes the audience regard her plan as not well thought out.
I agree that the film was giving partial information to mislead the audience, in order to set up a twist. That's obvious. The problem, in part, is that people are taking the set-up as canon and ignoring the subsequent twist.

As to Holdo's appearance, if "wears non-practical clothing" is a measure of poor command ability, then Leia is incompetent as well. Granted, Holdo's outfit is not what I would recommend for an admiral, but at the same time, and admiral is generally not going to be engaging in strenuous physical activity. They're going to be sitting/standing on a starship bridge.

This is also sensitive ground, because while you've made it clear that this is not your motivation, there is a long history of female leaders being denigrated based on their appearance. So its easy to stray into "unfortunate implications" territory when using Holdo's clothing and hair to critique her as a leader or character.

I will also reiterate that we don't know that Holdo briefed none of the officers, and in fact have some reason to believe that she did brief some people (the crews prepping the transports) on at least part of her plan. She didn't brief Poe, and I would contend she had no good reason to under the circumstances (at least from her point of view). But this is another example of the audience being given partial information, so I'm not sure we can really say how many people were kept in the loop, unless the EU deigns to comment on it.
For all we know, she only briefed a few people, and that's why it took the course of a day for them to make progress to fuel a few transports. Everyone else was panicking and running to escape pods because their leaders didn't brief them and instead danced around each other.

As for Holdo's attire. What is our nearest cultural comparison for her? No one else in Star Wars, a rather martial setting, is dressed like her, except for the the Senators from the Prequel era, and the rich snobs from Canto Bight.

Even Leia's clothing in this film is purposeful, and looks, uncontemporary and stylish, still seems functional.

Leia, while wearing a dress, looks like she could fit in on the trenches with that jacket.Leia in badass coat

And let's talk costuming visual language:

As discussed here, Leia is modeled to be regal, a queen. But it still looks functioning. Holdo was specifically made to look pretty, and the costume designer notes that this was on purpose:

Fashionista
Fashionista wrote:General Leia Organa is in a less tactical look with regal cape-outfits and very notable jewelry. Where did you look for inspiration for the looks, and what does the change from Episode VII tell us about her?

She was very rough and tumble [in VII] and J.J. [Abrams, "The Force Awakens" director] had his point of view of how he wanted her to [look] as a general commanding the ship, and he loved the idea of her wearing coveralls. Rian wanted her to look more regal, as you said, and more like a princess. So I thought capes were good, especially when she's in the cave and on the battlefield. There are pictures of Queen Elizabeth II wearing a military cape that inspired me. We made all the jewelry. She's wearing one ring from Episode VII, but the rest of the jewelry is all new for Episode VIII. I wanted her to look as beautiful and regal as possible and I think the shape and the cloak she's wearing is very "Star Wars," but very elegant, as well.

She has two costumes that are somewhat similar because they're both capes. One is metallic woven fabric and the other one which is much more simple — a gray-green cape that she wears until the end of the film. I love how it frames her face. Rian loved how it looked when [the camera] hit her face and you just saw her eyes. Toward the end of the film, there's a beautiful shot of her looking above the cape, with just her eyes, with the the collar spiraling around her head and face. It's a beautiful moment.
Leia is modeled off royalty, but military royalty. She has jewelry and makeup, but is still in a commanding role. It gives us the image that while she is a person of power wealth, she is still their leader.

Now here's the image of Holdo: Holdo briefing the troops

More importantly, here's what it looks like from the back: back view

Here's what the costume designer has to say:
Why does Vice Admiral Holdo wear a more high-fashion gown [which, editor's note looks amazing from the back], as compared to the rest of the Resistance?

Rian wanted to see her body language and wear something that was close-fitting and yet elegant. I thought we were just going to put her in a uniform, but Rian said, 'No, I want her in a gown.' So, I looked back to the beautiful clothes that Madame Grès did in the '30s and '40s and used this beautiful jersey fabric in this crazy color, which I think is called puce. There's something a little Grecian about it and she was very happy. I think she looks very beautiful
Now here's the citizens of Canto Bight:https://cdn.movieweb.com/img.news.tops/ ... sino goers

The director did this on purpose, and we subconsciously connect Holdo to the wealthy on Canto Bight. Or at least I did.

Now, while Leia is also wearing a dress, she looks like she belongs with the Resistance members much more than the casino gamblers, and has a history of wearing a uniform when necessary. Holdo looks like she doesn't belong with the group she's in charge of. And since in every film in Star Wars, costuming has given us a sense of who these characters are, we get a negative impression.

This is why, even in Attack of the Clones, teenage Anakin had black leather in his Jedi robes, while every other Jedi just used cloth. This was also visual foreshadowing that he would become Vader, a villain dressed in an all black leather and metal armor.

This is also why Luke and Leia are in almost all white in A New Hope, showing their heroic natures and innocence.
Now, as you are pointing out, Starfighter escort.

We see Finn and Rose leave without taking one of the escorts. If they're really needed to cover the Raddus, as mentioned, Finn and Rose are able to bring in refueling and reinforcements without taking them.
Yes, although the ship they took was fairly small, and the fuel and personnel it could have taken were quite limited, and the vessel might have been better used to evacuate personnel and equipment with the other transports.

Its not a bad plan, though, or at least it has no obvious glaring flaws.
Thank you. This is why refueling and bringing extra for everybody else seems like a better idea than a slow March of death. And since the plot requires the slow March of death, we have to wonder if they had better options, which they did, and didn't pursue, because Holdo doesn't talk to Poe, and maybe her other subordinates. Enough to which she had to face a mutiny.
Even if Mon Mothma's peace at any price plan was her way to re-election, it thematically ruins what the heroes accomplished. It also makes both the heroes and the villains seem less dangerous due to idiocy.

Sure, in-universe, there might be a wave of peaceniks screaming to disarm the New Republic military, but thematically, it points to the heroes having failed at saving the day. And the only reason this is a factor is to justify Holdo's plan of being fired on for a day to hide. Its not a logical progression of story, but one used to justify bad writing.
I'm pretty sure that the NR being gone was going to happen either way, in order to facilitate a return to the Empire vs. Rebels type of conflict. That's a questionable decision, but its not a product of the Holdo plotline (which has some questionable plot-points, but no more than a lot of SF battles, I think).

And yes, I think an NR peace movement makes sense in-universe, especially given the pressure the NR would be under to differentiate itself from the Empire's style of government. Nor do I think that this means that the OT heroes failed to save the day. They just failed to save it permanently. History doesn't end. That's life. Its shitty, but its life. And also an inevitability if you want to have sequels. :wink:
Again, this is where I point out my South Korea example, in that unilateral disarmament to the point that a terrorist group is threatening without allies while neighbors with a hostile power is dangerous and suicidal. And that there's a difference between making peace with your enemy, and being an Idiot who sells out to the enemy.

It runs counter to sense. And yes, shit happens. But you can make shit happen without making your heroes accomplishments pointless and for nothing. Thematically, it means our heroes' actions led to nothing.
There should be something left of the New Republic to run to. But since the ST is so bad at world building, it comes off as either the New Republic being idiots, or the Resistance leadership.
Clearly there are some factions that aren't completely subjugated by the FO- that's who Leia calls to for help. But in Leia's place, I'd be really wary about running to NR worlds for aid, given that the government pretty much has to be riddled with collaborators, as well as those who would view the Resistance as terrorists who fought an unsanctioned war and brought the FO's wrath down on the Republic.
If Rey is correct, and the Republic only has a matter of weeks left in it, then time for holding your cards in reserve is pointless. Any port in a storm would be a better option than hoping they don't notice you. Or pursuing the above mentioned 'courier grabbing supplies, fuel, and reinforcements' plan.

Though, maybe that would have gotten in the way of the crucial scene where Rose and Finn are freeing animals but leaving the slave children to rot.
Regarding morale:

Yes, Holdo had less than a day, Leia seemed to have less than fifteen minutes, and addressed morale better. I understand that we're being bamboozled by the film, but as I stated, it leaves the impression that she doesn't know what she's doing.

Even if Poe is a moron when it comes to tactics, delegation of some responsibility, even if it's clearing the loading bays, or working triage, would keep him busy, and take weight off her shoulders. Even if those are already covered, sending him there would help speed things up.

A simple: 'Poe, get us reinforcements, I don't care how, I'll work on the rest' would have worked.

It could also be argued that Poe was working on Leia's original plan of disabling the tracking, and Holdo and Poe never communicated about it due to them butting heads.
Again, we don't really see how Holdo interacted with the crew in general. We see how she interacted with Leia (briefly), and with Poe.

I'll acknowledge she made no real effort to address Poe's concerns, and treated him dismissively at times. I'll also point out that most admirals in a crisis would likely have little concern for soothing a single insubordinate, recently demoted officer who questions their leadership.

I do like the idea that both Poe and Holdo were working on different aspects of Leia's plan, and clashed due to a failure of communication.
This is why morale and relations are important in a militia. And I understand that things are chaotic, but a 30 second general brief might have worked. Old plan and new plan fighting each other to the detriment of the planners.
A general briefing would have been a security risk, unless it was so vague that it would have been unlikely to allay Poe's concerns.
This is why, as I have stated before, crisis management is important. Telling everyone you have a plan, but it's compartmentalized for security might not go over well, but at least it's better than saying that you have no plans at all, which inspired panic and mutiny. Holdo doesn't do anything like that. She's telling the Hero of Starkiller base to shut up and go away, when he could be settling the crews' nerves. It's a waste of resources, and backfired on her hard.

And if he can get followers for a mutiny, others must worry about her leadership as well, because her stated 'Have hope' plan is costing them ships and maybe people.
Regarding FO stupidity:

If having the villains HAVE to be idiots for the heroes to not die is a plot requirement, then the story needs a redraft. Poe's little 'prank call' sabotages the idea that the First Order is a threat, as Leia should have broadcast to the First Order fleet that she has their collective noses, and they better surrender if they want them back.

As shown in my previous posts, you can have the First Order outwitted by the Resistance, without making both sides look bad for not grasping obvious solutions.
The villains should not be utter buffoons in a film where they are meant to be threatening, but if your villains have significantly more resources than the heroes, then the only way the heroes can win is luck, or greater competency. The latter, to me, is generally more satisfying. So there has to be some competency gap.

The call to Hux was taking it too far, I agree. It was ham-fisted filmmaking, and a poor note to start the film on.

Kylo is handled better- he is often inept due to his emotional instability and insecurities, but is also allowed to show moments of genuine creativity and savvy- like his successful assassination of Snoke, or having the sense to throw all available firepower at Luke rather than pull his punches or immediately resort to a one-on-one duel.

That said, I like that the ST generally avoids making fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass". That's not a message society needs to hear.
Okay, answer me this. Would Raiders of the Lost ark have been better if the Nazis in that film were the bad guys from Hogan's Heroes? Would we have been worried about Indy surviving serious peril if he's dealing with the likes of Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz?

I would think not, because it would be impossible to take seriously. Same issue here.

I agree that we don't want the First Order to be too invincible, or too cool that the fans want to be them. At the same time, we want our heroes to be capable of dealing with a serious threat that the audience cants immediately see a way out of. Having the hero trying to get out of a burning building, while desperately pulling on the door that says 'Push', while next to a fire axe, water hose, and fire extinguisher isn't exciting, it's goofy.

And to me, and a lot of others, that's what a non-serious threat means if they're only winning because the good guys are dumb, but the bad guys are even dumber. That's not exciting drama, It's a farce.

Sidenote: I've been to Disneyland, and First Order troops are available for photo opportunities, so not making them cool to avoid inspiration is clearly not a priority for Disney.
Regarding theme:

Luke rectifying the belief that it's the poor dying while the rich gamble. If that's the intention, it didn't connect with me. Instead, it came off as a failed Hail Mary, and that instead, at best, we'll get a children's Jedi crusade. Maybe it's a failure of mine to pick it up, but I also believe that the various subplots were supposed to connect to each other in theme, as opposed to just sit by each other, and sabotage each other.

Maybe IX will tie things together better.
I didn't take the kid using the Force at the end as "The next film is going to have an army of little kid Jedi emerging because of Luke's sacrifice." Because that would be insane. I take it simply as a symbolic nod to (in-universe) Luke's death inspiring future generations, and (out-of-universe) an acknowledgement of Star Wars as a franchise that is beloved by children, and hopes that the films will be appreciated by a new generation of fans. Its symbolism, not a plot point.
Maybe, but it wasn't executed well, and leftus with contrasting themes in all the subplots. A good story has the various plots wrap together, tie in together, or contrast each other, in theme and action. Otherwise, we're just wasting time that could be spent better elsewhere.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Patroklos » 2018-04-24 06:52am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-22 07:18pm

I've gone over this already with Fax_Modem, I believe, but I might as well readdress it.

From what I recall of the film's dialogue for that scene, I think that they had only just finished the evacuation when the ship went up, so its not like the captain stayed and pointlessly died after his crew was safe. Now, they could have left the bridge running on drone mode, maybe- but what happens if there's a malfunction and someone needs to take manual control? In addition to the general cultural wariness Star Wars seems to have of relying on drone ships (they certainly have the technology for them, yet nearly all ships are manned).

So someone has to stay on the bridge. The captain doing it himself, rather than abandoning ship and ordering a subordinate to stay and die in his place, is expected. If he had been shown to have abandoned his post, the audience would rightly interpret that as cowardice and dereliction of duty.

It can also be taken, out of universe, as possibly foreshadowing Holdo staying behind on the Raddus while her crew evacuates.

No, we don't see all those reasons for the captain to stay play out on-screen, but its a logical inference. The audience is given partial information, yes. That may lead to a false conclusion, yes. But I don't see that in itself as "dishonest", really. In fact, its basically the only way to make a plot twist happen without actually lying to the audience.

...

This is what I mean about people taking the most negative possible interpretation of the film.

I'm willing to bet that in almost any other film, the captain's death would have been accepted as a heroic, tragic sacrifice by an officer who stayed at his post until his crew was safe. Not as an example of incompetence. There are legitimate criticisms to be made, certainly... but I rarely, if ever, have seen a film subjected to such relentless nitpicking and hair-splitting.

"Captain goes down with his ship while his crew are evacuated, therefore Holdo has no concern about preserving the lives of her personnel" is a really tenuous interpretation, even before you get into the fact that it directly contradicts more explicit on-screen evidence of Holdo's/Leia's intent.
You are again running face first into the shitty story telling of this movie. I agree with you whole heartedly that in another film the "Captain Goes Down With The Ship" trope would be accepted. I will go further that this trope would be accepted in SW if it was made to conform to the universe. The problem is that its not, as we know the level of technology available and the movie makes no excuse to massage the drama mechanic into the setting.

Additionally its all in service to this stupid ticking clock chase scene plot that makes no sense and is tonally inappropriate, but that's the movie so there is no undoing that

It goes further than that though, because even if they had crafted the medical frigate scene perfectly so that the audience accepts it, twenty minutes later the movie cuts the legs out from under that captains sacrifice by telling us having a warship auto piloted after evacuation without the need of a human pilot, and this time with the necessity of fooling the FO that the ship hadn't been evacuated, was exactly what they were going to do for the Raddus!

The movie, explicitly, tells us that what the medical frigate captain did was unnecessary. Pretty in Pink had no intention of staying behind on the Raddus until she sought suicide in the face the shame of her failed plan and assumed pending unnecessary but 100% predictable death of all her charges. Sure you can claim her ramming maneuver might require a human helmsmen, but Vice Admiral Versace confirms the capabilities of autopilot for what the Raddus was expected do post 100% evacuation is canon. Autopilot works. The Rebels have no issue using is for very critical things.
If it is correct that DJ had no way of knowing it, then that's a questionable plot point, yeah. I'll have to re-watch the film to check weather that is the case.

He could still have said "There are ships here, better do a high-intensity scan/check for cloaked ships". But it is a little weaker, yeah.
More importantly, if finding them means you need some sort of scan warships in actual combat are not currently implementing, these ships are essentially unstoppable super weapons. Coupled with the facts that these cloaks can be cobbled together from random parts present on a cruiser, and that any random HAXOR can now hack through shields with whatever laptop is handy and five minutes, the setting is completely broken.
I'm not sure how much I'd fault Rose, really, given that a) she had a lot of other shit on her mind and spent very little time communicating with Poe, and b) more importantly, that information was likely classified (and pretty clearly something Poe was not authorized to know).
Yeah, I am pretty sure that once Rose is engaging in mutiny because of a lack in confidence in anyone other than Poe being able to save the entire Resistance, classification levels are sort of out the window.

And yeah, when racking your brain on ways to save the lives of literally everyone and believing those everyone are the only hope for saving the entire galaxy, forgetting to mention this superweapon you casually cobbled right together right over there is a big deal.
As to Holdo's appearance, if "wears non-practical clothing" is a measure of poor command ability, then Leia is incompetent as well. Granted, Holdo's outfit is not what I would recommend for an admiral, but at the same time, and admiral is generally not going to be engaging in strenuous physical activity. They're going to be sitting/standing on a starship bridge.
You see this is a very good point on your part. As my boy Ackbar will tell you. Hey A-dog tell TRR about how safe starship bridges are...

Fish Face, where you at ?...

Shit, where did Leia go? Oh no, NIEN NUNB!!!!
This is also sensitive ground, because while you've made it clear that this is not your motivation, there is a long history of female leaders being denigrated based on their appearance. So its easy to stray into "unfortunate implications" territory when using Holdo's clothing and hair to critique her as a leader or character.
This line of preemptive self-consciously defensive position staking failed the last three times you tried it, it doesn't work any better this time. Wardrobe and the world building that partially relies on it are valid to criticize. There are whole awards categories that rely on it for a reason. Until you prove someone questioning the character appearance choices are not related to story telling or practicality, you are just betraying your lack of confidence in your water carrying.
I will also reiterate that we don't know that Holdo briefed none of the officers, and in fact have some reason to believe that she did brief some people (the crews prepping the transports) on at least part of her plan. She didn't brief Poe, and I would contend she had no good reason to under the circumstances (at least from her point of view). But this is another example of the audience being given partial information, so I'm not sure we can really say how many people were kept in the loop, unless the EU deigns to comment on it.
The problem is the reason Poe is not briefed is not an in world reason, its because the director has to keep him in the dark so the audience is kept in the dark. When you don't hide these real world decisions with the smoke and mirrors of a story and visuals, also known as making a movie, the audience is taken out of the movie. This was as simple to avoid as having Holdor throw Poe in the brig based on knowing Leia chastised him earlier.
I'll acknowledge she made no real effort to address Poe's concerns, and treated him dismissively at times. I'll also point out that most admirals in a crisis would likely have little concern for soothing a single insubordinate, recently demoted officer who questions their leadership.
Number of actual Admirals TRR knows : 0.

No TRR, when a senior officer of your staff, one of the few surviving, who also happens to be a hero character who just blew up a fucking world sized super weapon AND a dreadnought in 24 hours (so fucking stupid), each of which dwarf anything DressedToKill could have possibly done for her reputation, you listen. If not, you need to provide a damn good reason, which this movie does not.
A general briefing would have been a security risk, unless it was so vague that it would have been unlikely to allay Poe's concerns.
Like it was in AHH? Or do you mean like it was in RotJ? No no no I got it, like it was in TLJ, which was just yesterday...

If, IF, they had established an insider threat suspicion plot line this would make sense. I think this would have been a great idea and would have played to the paranoia of such a situation. Its certainly a better idea that what they actaully shot, chasing down a mole being infinetly more interesting that anything they did with Casino Royale. The problem is the idea that Poe would be that insider threat is stupid given he again just destroyed Star Killer base and a dreadnought, that's a shit tone of damage to inflict on yourself as the FO just to place a mole.

Essentially what the Raddus subplot was attempting was some sort of Crimson Tide scenario where two completely well meaning personality within a crew were both doing what they thought was their duty, but with irreconcilable opinions on what that entailed, and being isolated from help or further information to appeal to authority. The problem is this scenario, if you don't want one side to be an evil imbecile (Holdor) relies on both sides being 100% open on what they intend to do and disagreeing, not one side just holding all the cards and letting most everyone else fear for their lives with no ready alternative to have any input into their fate.
The villains should not be utter buffoons in a film where they are meant to be threatening, but if your villains have significantly more resources than the heroes, then the only way the heroes can win is luck, or greater competency. The latter, to me, is generally more satisfying. So there has to be some competency gap.
No, a smart film accomplishes this via clever devices and circumstances. What writers are paid to do. In the real world the winners are not automatically smarter. And in movies, its often the opposite of what you suggest, the underdog beating the superior threat via some unique and well thought out non obvious twist.

The "I was always better than you at everything anyways, so obviously I won" probably fits into a certain portion of a modern audiences wish fulfillment, the hallmark of today's narcissism and assumption of superiority over all those sheeple, but most people don't show up to heavy weight vs welter weight fights for a reason. They want to be surprised, they want to be in suspense until the actual resolution, and being obviously superior in every way from the opening crawl to the ending credits does nothing but provoke yawns.
That said, I like that the ST generally avoids making fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass". That's not a message society needs to hear.
They need to be good at whatever makes them threatening. If its a slasher flick and the murder kills by convincing hot coeds to follow him back to his house of horrors, he needs to be cool or charismatic so the audience believes sorority girls will willingly follow him. If your enemy is a overbearing military juggernaut, then they need to be good at military things or the audience will wonder why anyone is concerned about them doing military things. In the case of Star Wars, the FO/Empire need to be perceived as being "badasses", because our heros beating badasses via martial means makes them BIGGER badasses.

And if you are doing a subversion, ie you beat the military badass via being a badass as something else not readily assumed by the audience, this doesn't absolve you from having your enemy be military badasses. The point is that them being baddasses in that way was a folly and you didn't need to beat them toe to toe. RofJ sort of fails at this because it had this whole Luke vs Emperor thing where he wins by not fighting on the Emperor terms, but then the Rebels still beat the Imperial fleet and ground forces and blow up the death star anyway without anything Luke does impacting the situation. The Rebels were able to beat the Imperials conventionally the whole time.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-24 04:38pm

Kojiro wrote:
2018-04-22 09:22pm
What it fails to establish though is why Poe should trust her in light of her actions. He's not instantly mutinous, he certainly gives her a chance, but she doesn't deliver.
It does at least establish that she has a not-obviously-terrible combat record.

And does Poe really give her much of a chance? He expresses disappointment in her after one short speech, and does an end-run around her in favor of his own plan very shortly after she assumes command. Which is all the more baffling because Poe does think well of her initially. The only explanation I can see in-universe for this sudden reversal is that Poe is acting on emotion, not reason- that he is being driven by his fears to act impulsively. Out-of-universe, of course, its to set up the plot twist.

The claim that Holdo "doesn't deliver" rests entirely, so far as I can see, on her not giving Poe, or the crew in general, a briefing on her battle plans. In which case, I ask again why an admiral should be obligated to either a) give a general brief of their plans in a situation where the secrecy of those plans is vital to any chance of success, or b) go out of her way in a crisis to pacify a single officer who was just demoted for insubordination.

These points have come up again and again, but I have yet to see anyone satisfactorily answer them.
He is the one who just destroyed Starkiller base yesterday- his credit is good, as is his standing with the character we know is a good guy- Leia. Hers is much more dubious and Poe's mutiny should indicate her record is not that impressive. It's part of the bait and switch.
Minor quibble: Do we know exactly how much time passed between the destruction of Starkiller Base and Holdo taking command? It doesn't really affect this point one way or the other- I just don't recall it being stated. It obviously wasn't very long, but could have been more than a day, depending on when Rey left to find Luke, how long the evacuation took, and weather Rey's scenes line up with the Raddus scenes exactly chronologically.

In any case, Poe may have recently blown up Starkiller Base, but he was even more recently demoted for reckless and insubordinate actions. You can't use the one to defend his credibility, while ignoring the other.

The argument that the mutiny proves Holdo's incompetence has been gone over again and again, and its frankly a circular argument. "Poe mutinied because Holdo was incompetent." How do we know she's incompetent? "Because Poe mutinied."

I'll just reiterate that no one has demonstrated (because it cannot be demonstrated unambiguously based on on-screen evidence) that the crew generally supported the mutiny. Nor does the mere fact of a mutiny prove that the mutineers' complaints were necessarily justified.
The Resistance isn't so big that Leia's top operative, their best pilot and their starfighter commander shouldn't have met her. Again, more bait.
This is admittedly a questionable plot point. If I were to try to justify it (barring an EU explanation of which I am unaware), I would say that Holdo was likely acting as an emissary of Leia's to the NR, and possibly serving in the forces of an NR member state, and thus had been away from Resistance HQ for some time, until the collapse of the NR made her prior assignment moot. That is, of course, based on nothing in the film- its just how I would explain the omission if I were in charge of canon.
Sorry but that's all incorrect.

They have at least one astromech on board that can certainly pilot a ship assuming the ships can't be left to just fly straight (like when we see Holdo watching the shuttles leave. And remember, these ships are supposed to be heavily automated as well.
No one is denying the existence of droids in Star Wars. What I am saying is that droids are very seldom given control of a ship without a human pilot/commander also in attendance (the only major exception I'm aware of being CIS droid fighters in the Clone Wars). There is no technical reason for this to be the case that I can see- their AIs are quite up to the task. It is presumably a cultural reluctance to rely on droids. It may be illogical, but it is consistent with what we see throughout canon, and Holdo's actions are in no way anomalous here.
NOTHING prevents them from evacuating the Ninka before it runs out of fuel,
Because the film gives us a clear timeline for how long the evacuation should have taken, and does not explicitly state that the evacuation had just been wrapped up before the ship was destroyed.

Oh. Wait.
or from the captain abandoning ship on Holdo's orders. The ship doomed, he's ordered to move to the Raddus. Done, he's following orders- you know saving lives that don't have to needlessly die? I'm sure that came up somewhere in this film... not throwing lives away or something... Following your commanding officer is the very antithesis of dereliction of duty and no one things leaving a doomed ship is cowardice, it's 2018, not 1918. And shit, it's not like Leia stayed behind right?
No one thinks leaving a doomed ship is cowardice, but a captain acting to save themselves before their crew is safely evacuated? Yeah.

Yes, Holdo could have ordered him to evacuate. But there are legitimate reasons why a captain might remain at his post on a doomed ship, and even the most conscientious officer accepts that there are times when a subordinate may have to lay down their life in the course of their duty.

I'd say the fact that Holdo volunteered to personally stay behind on the Raddus to cover the escape, even against Leia's wishes IIRC, speaks volumes about her concern for the lives of her subordinates.
But Holdo doesn't tell him to come over or leave it to a droid. She let's him die to preserver the impression there is no better option. I do not know how you can say, with a straight face, she's trying to preserve valuable crew while simultaneously allowing her XO to die. And let's actually address that for a moment- the guy is *not* the captain of the Ninka, that's Holdo. If Holdo wanted him off the bridge, it's her bridge, even if she is currently on the Raddus.
See above.

"Captain goes down with his ship" is a very old trope that does not immediately signify incompetent or callous superiors sending said captain to his death, especially when there is a reason given (as I recall, the evacuation was still in-progress until right before the ship was destroyed) for the captain to remain at their post. There is room for multiple interpretations of a scene, of course, but this is a very tenuous one to take, much less to insist that it is the only possible valid one, even when it contradicts the film's obvious intent.

You can say that the contradiction is due to it being deliberate misdirection to fool the audience, but even then... the first time I saw this film, I expected that they would go for "Holdo is incompetent/a traitor" (and was pleasantly surprised when I was proven wrong), but I don't think I for a moment thought that this particular scene was evidence of Holdo's indifference to the lives of her subordinates.

Even if you think Holdo is a terrible officer, or that TLJ is a terrible film, it just seems like this is some really shaky ground on which to base your argument.

Also, another minor quibble, but if Holdo is an admiral, then she wouldn't be captain of the Ninka, would she? She'd have a captain under her commanding the ship, not just an XO. Or am I mixing up naval ranks?
Foreshadowing dumb doesn't make it not dumb.
Are you saying it was stupid foreshadowing, or that the thing it was foreshadowing (Holdo's death) was stupid?
Because there is no reason- that's why the XO dying is dishonest. With no reason for it given, a man *dies*, gives his life and Holdo does nothing to prevent it when she clearly could have. We know people don't die for shits and giggles and we're supposed to be seeing the heroes. If they let someone die they had no other options. Johnson rests on that simply concept to deceive the audience into thinking there are no options. It's not a twist unless you want to say 'heroes don't let heroes die without reason' is an assumption the audience shouldn't be making.
So is Johnson trying to trick the audience into thinking that Holdo is a horrible officer who callously let an officer die for no good reason, or is he trying to trick them into thinking that there were no other options but for the captain to sacrifice himself?

And yeah, I don't think there's a big twist here. I'm not sure that there's supposed to be. I'm taking this scene more or less at face value: The captain died by remaining at his post while his crew was evacuating. Holdo (presumably) didn't order to him to abandon ship because he was doing his duty. It shows the desperation of the Resistance's situation. We are given incomplete information, yes- we are lead to think that Holdo has no larger plan to save her people throughout much of the film. But the captain's death, I think, is exactly what it appears to be, and I don't think that the subsequent revelations about Holdo's plan changes that.

The film does try to misdirect the audience as to Holdo's character, but this isn't the best example of that, in my opinion.
Don't backslide into this. Argue the points, please.
I don't think its unreasonable to say that TLJ is subjected to a level of hostile examination and criticism beyond what most films are subjected to. To some extent, of course, that's an inevitable consequence of how high-profile Star Wars is, and how passionate a fan base it has. But I am skeptical that 95% of Hollywood SF would stand up any better to the same level of scrutiny.

Which isn't to say that we should just accept whatever we are shown without criticism, of course. But there has to be some willingness to suspend disbelief; to, if not take a film on its own terms, then at least extend it the benefit of the doubt.

As to points, the thing is that the point you are trying to make here is based on an exceedingly tenuous interpretation of the evidence. Hell, there are much stronger arguments that can be made both for Holdo being a bad officer and for the film being "dishonest", even if I don't personally agree with them.
The XO's death was seen as a heroic, tragic sacrifice while people believed there was no better option. Once it's revealed a better option exists- and not one that if found later but planned all along- his actions become tragic and wasteful.
Huh? So your argument now is that because Holdo actually turned out to have a plan, that means that she pointlessly threw her officer's life away?

In what way would Holdo's plan have rendered the death of the Ninka's captain unnecessary? Holdo clearly wasn't ready to launch the transports that far out from Crait. The Ninka was running out of fuel. Its personnel had to be evacuated to the Raddus. From what I recall of the on-screen dialogue (please correct me if I'm wrong on this point), the evacuation was only just concluded before the ship ran out of fuel. The captain stayed at his post during said evacuation, and then went down with his ship, presumably because he had no time to evacuate himself. None of this changes in light of Holdo's plan being subsequently revealed.
Sorry but you can't have her concerned about saving her people and letting her people (and herself!) die when they don't need to.
This seems to me the key point of this debate: your main argument rests entirely on the claim that these deaths were unnecessary and pointless.

I have given reasons, consistent with on-screen dialogue and how ships are normally operated in the Star Wars universe, for why there would be a living person at the helm. You have not actually refuted either of these points, except to assert that the ships could have been auto-piloted. Which is technically true, but also contrary to routine practice in the Star Wars universe. The reluctance to leave a ship entirely in droid hands is nothing remotely peculiar to Admiral Holdo.
We see that the Raddus can happily fly along without anyone at the helm and we know from basic physics that it doesn't take a whole fucking lot to just keep going straight in space. Or you know, astromechs? Autopilots are a thing too. The ships absolutely do not need a living person on them, unless you can provide some evidence of this?
Strictly speaking, of course its possible to have an autopiloted ship in Star Wars. That is not under contention, and I have no intention of defending an argument I never made. But that is not how ships are generally operated in Star Wars. If Holdo doesn't care about the lives of her personnel because she doesn't rely on droid-operated ships, what of the commanders at Yavin, or Endor, or any other battle, who ordered thousands of sapient beings into harm's way when they could have conducted the battle with drones (of course, this isn't even getting into the question of whether Star Wars droids are intelligent enough to be considered people as well). Nor is the practice of keeping a living pilot aboard entirely irrational. Suppose the autopilot malfunctions, and someone has to assume manual control?

When do we see the Raddus fly without anyone on the bridge, by the way? Aside from when the bridge was bombed, which was obviously not anything like an ideal or intended situation.
She's in on the whole planning and vid call to Maz. Hell she helps form the plan, as well as consenting to go on it. She's abandoning her post, going behind Holdo's back and supporting Poe. I think we can safely say she's thrown in with Finn and Poe at this point. Consider also that the same transports were used to ferry personnel to the Raddus without being picked off (a task we know the FO are quite capable of).
Fair enough.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-04-24 06:20pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-04-24 02:05am
First off, welcome back. I enjoy our discussions.
Thanks.
Kojiro handled this well, but I will reiterate, they had better options, which makes the 'heroic sacrifices' an utterly pointless waste of resources.
I'll admit, I don't really get where Kojiro is coming from on this.

I mean, if you want to substitute an entire alternate battle plan from very early in the film, maybe you could come up with a scenario in which those deaths are avoidable. But once things got to the point where they were cornered by an FO fleet and running out of fuel, I don't think the death of the Ninka's captain could have been averted, short of having him abandon his post before the evacuation was completed.

As to Holdo- her death was technically avoidable, but it probably wouldn't have ended well for anyone. Had she left the Raddus unmanned, then she would presumably have died with everyone else on the transports. Had she left another in her place, the Resistance might or might not have survived, but then she would have been consigning someone else to death or capture in her place. Had she not rammed the FO fleet, the Resistance would have been wiped out, excluding possibly Rey, Chewie, R2, and maybe Holdo herself (as an FO captive).

The only way to avert that would have been to come up with an entirely different battle plan from the start. We've argued various alternatives back and forth. Now, I think Holdo's plan has its merits, and likely would have saved most of the personnel at the cost of the ships if not for Poe's idiocy and DJ's treachery (well, unless Snoke or Kylo sensed the hidden transports through the Force). That said, I will acknowledge that any plan has room for improvement, especially since most SF battle plans are written by professional writers, not professional soldiers. I'll be damned if I can come up with a better overall plan, though (perhaps because I am likewise an actor/writer by profession, not a soldier or military theorist), presuming the primary goal is to save the personnel, not the ships (if the primary goal is to save as many ships as possible, then have the escorts scatter and sacrifice the Raddus and any personnel that can't be evacuated from it to the smaller ships in time).

Let's review the options that have been raised: Sending small ships/distress calls out to summon aid might get the word out without having to reach Crait first, but it won't save the fleet, unless said aid shows up very quickly with a capital ship fleet. Sending out ships to bring more fuel is a big question mark- how quickly could they return, and how much fuel could they carry for the Raddus, even assuming they could find a safe harbor? Sending out the escorts will leave the Raddus open to enemy fighter attack. I doubt that there would be time to evacuate the Raddus to the escorts and have them scatter (though that might be the optimal plan if possible), given that as we saw, there was barely time to evacuate the Ninka's presumably smaller compliment to the Raddus before the Ninka ran out of fuel.

In any case, as long as the Raddus was being tracked, it was doomed. Unless they can get rid of the FO's tracking, then wherever the Raddus goes, it will be followed by a force it cannot defeat in battle. If it goes to a friendly world, it will bring that fleet down upon it. Short of summoning a capital ship fleet that can match the FO in open battle, the Raddus had to be abandoned.

The Resistance simply have very limited options here. If Hux/Snoke had shown more initiative and tactical creativity, then they could have mopped up the fleet before Holdo even had a chance to take command, and her abilities or lack thereof would have been irrelevant.
quote]For all we know, she only briefed a few people, and that's why it took the course of a day for them to make progress to fuel a few transports. Everyone else was panicking and running to escape pods because their leaders didn't brief them and instead danced around each other.
I agree that its likely that Holdo only briefed a few people.

What I disagree with is that this is in any way a sign of poor leadership on her part. A plan on which the survival of your faction depends, which relies on secrecy to succeed, should not be general knowledge. Especially if the loyalty of much of your crew is in question. This is "need to know"- Holdo's job was to brief the people who needed to be briefed for the plan to be carried out. Its possible that Holdo underestimated the seriousness of the morale situation, but we also don't really know how general dissatisfaction with her command was. And frankly, asking your crew to keep their shit together for one day so that you can execute your battle plan without leaking it to the entire force is not unreasonable.

I mean, Holdo could have said "Yes, I have a plan, honest." But without specifics that it would be dangerous to divulge, would Poe have accepted that at face value? His on-screen actions lead me to suspect that the answer is "no".
As for Holdo's attire. What is our nearest cultural comparison for her? No one else in Star Wars, a rather martial setting, is dressed like her, except for the the Senators from the Prequel era, and the rich snobs from Canto Bight.
Again, Leia wears dresses and fancy hairstyles all the time (particularly in the OT era). And don't even get me started on the odd bikini-wearing female Jedi. Frankly, Leia gets a pass on a lot of the same criticisms that are leveled at Holdo.

Going off on a tangent, I'd also dispute that Star Wars is "a rather martial setting", or at least notably more so than the real world is. I mean, compared to the TNG Federation or something, sure, but there are plenty of people just living ordinary peaceful lives on quiet worlds. We just see more of the military side of the galaxy because that's the focus of the films.
Even Leia's clothing in this film is purposeful, and looks, uncontemporary and stylish, still seems functional.
Eh, she and Holdo both wear dresses. I admit that I'm pretty much fashion-blind, but I don't see much difference there.
Leia, while wearing a dress, looks like she could fit in on the trenches with that jacket.Leia in badass coat
Leia's coat is cool, no argument there. But contrast that to her various princess dresses over the course of the franchise. No one argues that Leia is incompetent as a result.
And let's talk costuming visual language:

As discussed here, Leia is modeled to be regal, a queen. But it still looks functioning. Holdo was specifically made to look pretty, and the costume designer notes that this was on purpose:

Fashionista
Fashionista wrote:General Leia Organa is in a less tactical look with regal cape-outfits and very notable jewelry. Where did you look for inspiration for the looks, and what does the change from Episode VII tell us about her?

She was very rough and tumble [in VII] and J.J. [Abrams, "The Force Awakens" director] had his point of view of how he wanted her to [look] as a general commanding the ship, and he loved the idea of her wearing coveralls. Rian wanted her to look more regal, as you said, and more like a princess. So I thought capes were good, especially when she's in the cave and on the battlefield. There are pictures of Queen Elizabeth II wearing a military cape that inspired me. We made all the jewelry. She's wearing one ring from Episode VII, but the rest of the jewelry is all new for Episode VIII. I wanted her to look as beautiful and regal as possible and I think the shape and the cloak she's wearing is very "Star Wars," but very elegant, as well.

She has two costumes that are somewhat similar because they're both capes. One is metallic woven fabric and the other one which is much more simple — a gray-green cape that she wears until the end of the film. I love how it frames her face. Rian loved how it looked when [the camera] hit her face and you just saw her eyes. Toward the end of the film, there's a beautiful shot of her looking above the cape, with just her eyes, with the the collar spiraling around her head and face. It's a beautiful moment.
Leia is modeled off royalty, but military royalty. She has jewelry and makeup, but is still in a commanding role. It gives us the image that while she is a person of power wealth, she is still their leader.

Now here's the image of Holdo: Holdo briefing the troops

More importantly, here's what it looks like from the back: back view

Here's what the costume designer has to say:
Why does Vice Admiral Holdo wear a more high-fashion gown [which, editor's note looks amazing from the back], as compared to the rest of the Resistance?

Rian wanted to see her body language and wear something that was close-fitting and yet elegant. I thought we were just going to put her in a uniform, but Rian said, 'No, I want her in a gown.' So, I looked back to the beautiful clothes that Madame Grès did in the '30s and '40s and used this beautiful jersey fabric in this crazy color, which I think is called puce. There's something a little Grecian about it and she was very happy. I think she looks very beautiful
Now here's the citizens of Canto Bight:https://cdn.movieweb.com/img.news.tops/ ... sino goers

The director did this on purpose, and we subconsciously connect Holdo to the wealthy on Canto Bight. Or at least I did.
The background information on costumes is highly interesting, but nothing I see there definitely establishes that Holdo's look was chosen to make the audience think that she was incompetent or to associate her with Canto Bight. Its possible, and I wouldn't put it past Johnson, who drops a lot of subtle hints and misdirection throughout the film, but its pretty much speculation at this point.

And even if it was deliberate misdirection to make the audience think Holdo was incompetent or corrupt, it wouldn't demonstrate that Holdo is a poor commander in-universe. It would, rather, be playing on real-world prejudices to make the audience think that Holdo is inept, which is ultimately revealed not to be the case.
Now, while Leia is also wearing a dress, she looks like she belongs with the Resistance members much more than the casino gamblers, and has a history of wearing a uniform when necessary. Holdo looks like she doesn't belong with the group she's in charge of. And since in every film in Star Wars, costuming has given us a sense of who these characters are, we get a negative impression.

This is why, even in Attack of the Clones, teenage Anakin had black leather in his Jedi robes, while every other Jedi just used cloth. This was also visual foreshadowing that he would become Vader, a villain dressed in an all black leather and metal armor.

This is also why Luke and Leia are in almost all white in A New Hope, showing their heroic natures and innocence.
Of course a director can use a character's costume to symbolically say something about that character, or to create a certain impression of them. You may be right about the intent behind Holdo's costume, or you may not. Either way, however, it doesn't say anything about her actual ability in-universe. At worst, it shows that the misdirection was too effective, so that audiences took the misdirection at face-value and ignored the subsequent revelation.

I'd also note that Star Wars has a history of female characters in princess attire being portrayed as competent and heroic fighters and leaders. Leia in the OT being the most obvious, but Padme comes to mind as well (even if she admittedly did tend to ditch the dresses in combat).
Thank you. This is why refueling and bringing extra for everybody else seems like a better idea than a slow March of death. And since the plot requires the slow March of death, we have to wonder if they had better options, which they did, and didn't pursue, because Holdo doesn't talk to Poe, and maybe her other subordinates. Enough to which she had to face a mutiny.
Its simply not reasonable to suggest that a commander provoked a mutiny because she didn't reveal a plan which depended on secrecy to a single disgruntled officer who didn't need to know the plan and was recently demoted for reckless insubordination. Frankly, if she made a mistake with Poe, it was accomadating him as much as she did. I'd have brigged the jackass.

As to whether your plan is ultimately better, that hinges on a number of unknowns: How much fuel could the small ships bring back? How quickly could they do so? Was there a safe port they could go to within range to fuel up? It might work. It might not.

Arguably the film should have done a better job of establishing why Holdo's plan was the best option. But I'm willing to largely give it a pass on this, because at the end of the day, its a Star Wars film, not a tactical manual, and we wouldn't want it to get bogged down in exposition.
Again, this is where I point out my South Korea example, in that unilateral disarmament to the point that a terrorist group is threatening without allies while neighbors with a hostile power is dangerous and suicidal. And that there's a difference between making peace with your enemy, and being an Idiot who sells out to the enemy.

It runs counter to sense. And yes, shit happens. But you can make shit happen without making your heroes accomplishments pointless and for nothing. Thematically, it means our heroes' actions led to nothing.
I'm not saying that the NR's actions are smart. Just that they are explicable within the context of the setting.

I don't think, however, that this invalidates the actions of the OT heroes. They defeated the Empire and bought the galaxy years of peace and freedom. That does not change simply because others' ineptitude ultimately squandered those gains. The fight goes on, but the only reason it can go on is because of the efforts of the OT heroes.

I do not share the view that because a victory is not permanent, it is pointless. By that standard, all of human history is pointless. And yes, some people would argue that, but its a bit too cynical and nihilistic a view for me.
If Rey is correct, and the Republic only has a matter of weeks left in it, then time for holding your cards in reserve is pointless. Any port in a storm would be a better option than hoping they don't notice you. Or pursuing the above mentioned 'courier grabbing supplies, fuel, and reinforcements' plan.
In point of fact, laying low in the face of massed conventional firepower is pretty much how insurgencies operate. Leia undoubtably knows this from personal experience. And laying low and hoping you aren't noticed is definitely a better option than going to a port full of possible collaborators.

Again, this is something Leia has personal experience in. Remember Empire Strikes Back, where the Falcon was running from the Empire on a disabled hyperdrive, and they took a chance on a dubious ally by going to Lando at Cloud City? Remember how that ended? I can bet you that Leia remembers. She remembers being captured by the people who tortured her and blew up her home world. She remembers being used as bait to lure her brother into a trap. She remembers watching the man she loved being tortured and frozen in carbonite. Hell, even Cloud City ended up getting screwed over because of their presence there.

That's the kind of hard lesson one is not likely to quickly forget.
Though, maybe that would have gotten in the way of the crucial scene where Rose and Finn are freeing animals but leaving the slave children to rot.
The plight of the slave children vs. the plight of the animals probably should have gotten more attention (though that would have made for a considerably more depressing film), but I don't really see what Rose and Finn could have realistically done about it under the circumstances.
This is why, as I have stated before, crisis management is important. Telling everyone you have a plan, but it's compartmentalized for security might not go over well, but at least it's better than saying that you have no plans at all, which inspired panic and mutiny. Holdo doesn't do anything like that. She's telling the Hero of Starkiller base to shut up and go away, when he could be settling the crews' nerves. It's a waste of resources, and backfired on her hard.
Could she have done more to appease Poe? Yes. Is she obligated to pander to the concerns of a single disgruntled, recently-disgraced subordinate? No, and its not an obvious conclusion that failing to do so will result in a mutiny.

If she did have reason to believe that Poe might mutiny, she should have brigged his ass.

And as I said to Kojiro, you can't cite Poe's actions at Starkiller Base in his defense, while ignoring his more recent demotion for recklessness and insubordination. Both are a part of his record.

Yes, Holdo could have said, and maybe should have said "There's a plan, but its compartmentalized." I'm not convinced that that would have made any difference with Poe, however, based on his actions on-screen. I mean, does one normally assume that a commander has no plan unless they immediately state that they have one?
And if he can get followers for a mutiny, others must worry about her leadership as well, because her stated 'Have hope' plan is costing them ships and maybe people.
It is frustrating to have to keep debating the same points over and over again.

The fact that a handful of people are shown participating in the mutiny does not in any way prove a general dissatisfaction with Holdo's leadership. Granted, the fact that most of the crew appeared to sit it out isn't a resounding endorsement of Holdo's leadership, but I get the sense that most of the crew basically said "Screw this" and got on with their jobs. Though there's really insufficient evidence to say for certain.
Okay, answer me this. Would Raiders of the Lost ark have been better if the Nazis in that film were the bad guys from Hogan's Heroes? Would we have been worried about Indy surviving serious peril if he's dealing with the likes of Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz?

I would think not, because it would be impossible to take seriously. Same issue here.

I agree that we don't want the First Order to be too invincible, or too cool that the fans want to be them. At the same time, we want our heroes to be capable of dealing with a serious threat that the audience cants immediately see a way out of. Having the hero trying to get out of a burning building, while desperately pulling on the door that says 'Push', while next to a fire axe, water hose, and fire extinguisher isn't exciting, it's goofy.

And to me, and a lot of others, that's what a non-serious threat means if they're only winning because the good guys are dumb, but the bad guys are even dumber. That's not exciting drama, It's a farce.
I don't get the impression that the heroes are stupid in TLJ (well, Poe aside), though the FO is definitely more inept. As I said, I think that this was more or less necessary, to a point, and I think that you are overstating somewhat the ease with which the heroes could have escaped the FO, or their reliance on FO incompetence. But I agree that the villains need to be somewhat threatening, and while there were points in the film where we got that, there was some stuff (most notably the Hux phone call scene, as I already noted) which was just excessive. A lot of directors and writers have problems introducing humor to a dramatic film in a manner that allows them to compliment, rather than clashing with, each other. The Prequels had the same problem, notoriously.
Sidenote: I've been to Disneyland, and First Order troops are available for photo opportunities, so not making them cool to avoid inspiration is clearly not a priority for Disney.
I think its fair to say that the writers/directors may have different priorities from the marketing/merchandising people. In fact, I'd be pretty disappointed if they didn't.
Maybe, but it wasn't executed well, and leftus with contrasting themes in all the subplots. A good story has the various plots wrap together, tie in together, or contrast each other, in theme and action. Otherwise, we're just wasting time that could be spent better elsewhere.
I think that a certain amount of thematic ambiguity was to some extent a deliberate choice in TLJ. Weather that works for you or not is somewhat a matter of personal taste. I'm not unsympathetic, because there are points that I wish the film had been more clear and less deceptive on myself.

I'm not certain how the particular bit with the kid at the end contradicts the films' themes, though.

Oh, by the way, is it alright with everyone if I just let Patroklos's post be? I'm already arguing this topic with two other posters, and a lot of Patroklos's post appears to be just rehashing the same points.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Kojiro » 2018-04-24 09:04pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-24 04:38pm
It does at least establish that she has a not-obviously-terrible combat record.
I disagree. It establishes nothing but her presence at a certain event. Now if she'd some out in uniform, covered in medals or had someone refer to her as 'the hero of X and Y' you'd have a point. But we don't get that. We get 'The line of succession is clear, it's Vice Admiral Holdo.' which is immediately commented on by Poe in what is expositional code for 'I don't know this person'. Those are choices by the director, do downplay her achievement (if any) and to make Poe, our established proxy, unfamiliar with her. Imagine if, instead of Holdo it has been announced that Akbar was now in command? Or Lando? Fuck it, even Nien Nub would have come in with more established trust than Holdo. Surely you can see how such writer/director choices are intended to deceive the audience?
And does Poe really give her much of a chance?
Yes, he does. He gives her multiple chances to explain. In the end his mutiny is only staged to buy them time.

1:27:00 "We had a fleet and now we're down to one ship, and you've told us nothing. Tell us you have a plan! That there's hope!" Holdo has been in command for at the least 10 hours at this point, probably closer to 16. This is where Poe finds the transports are being fuelled after Holdo gives him the bullshit about hoping through the night.
"We're abandoning ship? That's what you got? That's what you've brought us to? Those transport ships are unarmed and unshielded! We abandon this cruiser and we're done, we don't stand a chance!"
That right there is the perfect time to tell him 'Oh by the way the transports are cloaked AND WE HAVE A SECRET BASE JUST OVER THERE.' Perfect. Time. But no, she doesn't. She let's Poe, and by extension the audience, remain ignorant. Cloaks are never mentioned. Again, this is to deceive the audience.
The claim that Holdo "doesn't deliver" rests entirely, so far as I can see, on her not giving Poe, or the crew in general, a briefing on her battle plans. In which case, I ask again why an admiral should be obligated to either a) give a general brief of their plans in a situation where the secrecy of those plans is vital to any chance of success, or b) go out of her way in a crisis to pacify a single officer who was just demoted for insubordination.
She's a new character clashing with an established hero character the audience trusts. In universe, sure she's no obligated to brief anyone (leaving aside that Rose must know about the cloaks) but part of leadership is morale and boy, she failed spectacularly there. Poe isn't a 'single officer'. Rose and Finn are with him, as are several others and we know that a guard is needed on the escape pods. So no, she doesn't 'have' to tell anyone, let alone the trusted hero. But if you want to go that path you have to accept she's a terrible leader who can't manage her own people- evidenced by the mutiny.
Minor quibble: Do we know exactly how much time passed between the destruction of Starkiller Base and Holdo taking command? It doesn't really affect this point one way or the other- I just don't recall it being stated. It obviously wasn't very long, but could have been more than a day, depending on when Rey left to find Luke, how long the evacuation took, and weather Rey's scenes line up with the Raddus scenes exactly chronologically.
Given a shitty, cobbled together hyperdrive (such as the one on the shuttle Finn and Rose take) can get across the galaxy in 5-6 hours it's a short time span. The directorial decision to link Ach-To, via Force projection, strongly implies a sense of linked continuity- nothing appears out of sequence at the least. But in this case it simply can't be that long unless someone is deliberately stalling, which is doubtful.
In any case, Poe may have recently blown up Starkiller Base, but he was even more recently demoted for reckless and insubordinate actions. You can't use the one to defend his credibility, while ignoring the other.
You're conflating audience credibility with in universe authority. Even if the audience believes Poe to be in the wrong, they still trust he's a good guy and was doing what he felt was best for the Resistance.
The argument that the mutiny proves Holdo's incompetence has been gone over again and again, and its frankly a circular argument. "Poe mutinied because Holdo was incompetent." How do we know she's incompetent? "Because Poe mutinied."
At the very least, in terms of caring for your troops morale, she was incompetent, and yes, mutiny is a pretty good indicator that your crew is either a) treacherous and evil or b) has their morale in the toilet, and we know it's not a).
I'll just reiterate that no one has demonstrated (because it cannot be demonstrated unambiguously based on on-screen evidence) that the crew generally supported the mutiny. Nor does the mere fact of a mutiny prove that the mutineers' complaints were necessarily justified.
This is somewhat of a problem as it seems most of the crew were ambivalent about it, with only those close enough to Poe or Holdo bothering to do much while everyone else just continued doing what they were doing. Personally I think this is unlikely, I think a crew who has been given no hope, no plan, has their trusted leaders taken and finds themselves at deaths door is far more likely to be desperate than stoically proceed to their deaths.
This is admittedly a questionable plot point. If I were to try to justify it (barring an EU explanation of which I am unaware), I would say that Holdo was likely acting as an emissary of Leia's to the NR, and possibly serving in the forces of an NR member state, and thus had been away from Resistance HQ for some time, until the collapse of the NR made her prior assignment moot. That is, of course, based on nothing in the film- its just how I would explain the omission if I were in charge of canon.
There's a ton of potential ways to explain it but we don't get any of them. We don't even get to see Leia and her speak prior to Leia's return, to establish there's any friendship there at all. There are so many ways a writer/director could establish Holdo but it seems she's literally plucked out of thin air- no prior mention of her before she assumes command.

No one is denying the existence of droids in Star Wars. What I am saying is that droids are very seldom given control of a ship without a human pilot/commander also in attendance (the only major exception I'm aware of being CIS droid fighters in the Clone Wars). There is no technical reason for this to be the case that I can see- their AIs are quite up to the task. It is presumably a cultural reluctance to rely on droids. It may be illogical, but it is consistent with what we see throughout canon, and Holdo's actions are in no way anomalous here.
What? This is the perfect time to give over control to a droid! Or just the autopilot. Or just to leave the controls entirely. Holdo was able to come down to the hangar and say her goodbyes to Leia- who was piloting then? Either way, 'cultural reluctance' would have to be epic in order for someone to let themselves or others die for it and I really don't think SW is there.
Because the film gives us a clear timeline for how long the evacuation should have taken, and does not explicitly state that the evacuation had just been wrapped up before the ship was destroyed.

Oh. Wait.
Yeah sure, but that's fucking retarded. Do they not have a fuel gauge? Why the fuck have they waited until the last possible moment to evacuate? We're immediately told after it's destruction that fuel reserves are at 6 hours- meaning this is roughly 12 hours into the chase, which is ample time to clear out its crew of 170.
No one thinks leaving a doomed ship is cowardice, but a captain acting to save themselves before their crew is safely evacuated? Yeah.
Sure, but as I said, 12 hours to evacuate. Get the crew off then let a droid take over- that ship has it's own freaking droid bay even so they're definitely present. By all means, be the last one off but get off.
Yes, Holdo could have ordered him to evacuate. But there are legitimate reasons why a captain might remain at his post on a doomed ship, and even the most conscientious officer accepts that there are times when a subordinate may have to lay down their life in the course of their duty.
And you're yet to provide one of these reasons why simultaneously claiming she's trying to save lives. No, a distrust of droids is not sufficient.
I'd say the fact that Holdo volunteered to personally stay behind on the Raddus to cover the escape, even against Leia's wishes IIRC, speaks volumes about her concern for the lives of her subordinates.
Almost like she knew they'd be betrayed and require some special, never before seen move that would just coincidentally happen to perfectly work! Or she was an idiot who chose to deprive the Resistance of a valuable officer because she couldn't trust the autopilot or BB-8 to keep the ship flying in a straight line like it already was.
Also, another minor quibble, but if Holdo is an admiral, then she wouldn't be captain of the Ninka, would she? She'd have a captain under her commanding the ship, not just an XO. Or am I mixing up naval ranks?
We're not really shown how it all works, but she was a Vice Admiral as the commanding officer (captain) of the Ninka. Presumably her XO was made acting captain in her absence but either way she retains authority.
Are you saying it was stupid foreshadowing, or that the thing it was foreshadowing (Holdo's death) was stupid?
The action itself- stay on board a doomed ship when alternatives exist- is dumb. Showing multiple people doing it renders it no less stupid.
So is Johnson trying to trick the audience into thinking that Holdo is a horrible officer who callously let an officer die for no good reason, or is he trying to trick them into thinking that there were no other options but for the captain to sacrifice himself?
To me it appears he's trying to trick the audience into thinking there's no better option than dying on the doomed ship. In the moment of the film, where the audience has no idea there's a plan, this seems like there's nothing Holdo could do. It's only in retrospect, when you realise she had a plan all along, that you have to question why she let him die. I don't think Johnson is trying to make the audience think she's horrible- I believe it's an unintended consequence of her letting someone die without adequately explaining why he had to die screaming in a fireball.
And yeah, I don't think there's a big twist here. I'm not sure that there's supposed to be. I'm taking this scene more or less at face value: The captain died by remaining at his post while his crew was evacuating.
See above. 12 hours is a long time.
Holdo (presumably) didn't order to him to abandon ship because he was doing his duty. It shows the desperation of the Resistance's situation.
That's screen manufactured desperation. They had plenty of time and it's onerous on the heels of 'Bad Poe! You got people killed!"
We are given incomplete information, yes- we are lead to think that Holdo has no larger plan to save her people throughout much of the film. But the captain's death, I think, is exactly what it appears to be, and I don't think that the subsequent revelations about Holdo's plan changes that.
See above. 12 hours.
I don't think its unreasonable to say that TLJ is subjected to a level of hostile examination and criticism beyond what most films are subjected to. To some extent, of course, that's an inevitable consequence of how high-profile Star Wars is, and how passionate a fan base it has. But I am skeptical that 95% of Hollywood SF would stand up any better to the same level of scrutiny.
I think you'll find people entrenched on both sides. But how would you take it if someone implied you were only interested in defending it for dubious reasons? That's a rhetorical question, mind you.
Which isn't to say that we should just accept whatever we are shown without criticism, of course. But there has to be some willingness to suspend disbelief; to, if not take a film on its own terms, then at least extend it the benefit of the doubt.
I would perhaps be more inclined to extend it that benefit if it weren't a writer/director combo. What we see on screen is going to be 'truer' than a mixed comb where a director puts their own slant on things.
As to points, the thing is that the point you are trying to make here is based on an exceedingly tenuous interpretation of the evidence. Hell, there are much stronger arguments that can be made both for Holdo being a bad officer and for the film being "dishonest", even if I don't personally agree with them.
Bad officer is a broad term and I really only apply it to her managing of personnel and morale. I do not, for example, nor have I mentioned her hair or outfit (other than to say above that a military uniform with awards would help establish her, which I think is pretty obvious). My issue with the film is how she's used as a tool, her function in the plot because throughout the whole film, my SoD was absolutely shot. I only see her as the tool of plot she is and the contradictions that seems to raise. I would, however, love to hear your complaints regarding her.
Huh? So your argument now is that because Holdo actually turned out to have a plan, that means that she pointlessly threw her officer's life away?
Is that so hard to understand? What prevented her from saving him?
In what way would Holdo's plan have rendered the death of the Ninka's captain unnecessary? Holdo clearly wasn't ready to launch the transports that far out from Crait.
Irrelevant. Bring him over with the rest of the crew until you are ready.
The Ninka was running out of fuel. Its personnel had to be evacuated to the Raddus. From what I recall of the on-screen dialogue (please correct me if I'm wrong on this point), the evacuation was only just concluded before the ship ran out of fuel. The captain stayed at his post during said evacuation, and then went down with his ship, presumably because he had no time to evacuate himself. None of this changes in light of Holdo's plan being subsequently revealed.
Again, 12 hours in at this point. You're not wrong that the evacuation was just completed but this is another contrivance.
I have given reasons, consistent with on-screen dialogue and how ships are normally operated in the Star Wars universe, for why there would be a living person at the helm. You have not actually refuted either of these points, except to assert that the ships could have been auto-piloted.
Oh come on, this is poor. We know they have autopilots, we know they have an astromech (if not more). We know that Holdo can be down in the hangar while the ship flies just fine. Are you seriously asserting that having a giant ship continue forward with its momentum is a task requiring a living person present?

I'm going to skip a bit here, because it all comes down to excuses why Holdo had to be on the bridge. Now to me, and I'm sure others, none of this cuts it. We don't even know why you can't just let it keep flying, let alone why the autopilot couldn't be trusted, why a remote couldn't be rigged up (hey they had time to rig up dozens of cloaks!) or why any droid, if not not an astromech, couldn't have done the job. Autopilots and astromechs are routinely trusted with flying ships- it's their fucking purpose- and to imply they're suddenly untrustworthy to the point of suicide is stretching it.
When do we see the Raddus fly without anyone on the bridge, by the way? Aside from when the bridge was bombed, which was obviously not anything like an ideal or intended situation.
When Holdo is down in the shuttle bay and everyone leaves (1:37:00 or so).

I think we're honestly analysing it differently, with me coming from a more writing/constructing type angle while you seem more intent on enjoying the flow. I'll state I'd prefer to be looking at it from your side, but with SoD broken that's not really an option. Too many things pulled me out of it (and perhaps too many discussions afterwards about it) but I just can't see anything but badly constructed narrative any more. Holdo to me, is a bad plot device to forward a bad story, nothing more.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-04-25 04:09am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-04-24 06:20pm
Kojiro handled this well, but I will reiterate, they had better options, which makes the 'heroic sacrifices' an utterly pointless waste of resources.
I'll admit, I don't really get where Kojiro is coming from on this.

I mean, if you want to substitute an entire alternate battle plan from very early in the film, maybe you could come up with a scenario in which those deaths are avoidable. But once things got to the point where they were cornered by an FO fleet and running out of fuel, I don't think the death of the Ninka's captain could have been averted, short of having him abandon his post before the evacuation was completed.

As to Holdo- her death was technically avoidable, but it probably wouldn't have ended well for anyone. Had she left the Raddus unmanned, then she would presumably have died with everyone else on the transports. Had she left another in her place, the Resistance might or might not have survived, but then she would have been consigning someone else to death or capture in her place. Had she not rammed the FO fleet, the Resistance would have been wiped out, excluding possibly Rey, Chewie, R2, and maybe Holdo herself (as an FO captive).

The only way to avert that would have been to come up with an entirely different battle plan from the start. We've argued various alternatives back and forth. Now, I think Holdo's plan has its merits, and likely would have saved most of the personnel at the cost of the ships if not for Poe's idiocy and DJ's treachery (well, unless Snoke or Kylo sensed the hidden transports through the Force). That said, I will acknowledge that any plan has room for improvement, especially since most SF battle plans are written by professional writers, not professional soldiers. I'll be damned if I can come up with a better overall plan, though (perhaps because I am likewise an actor/writer by profession, not a soldier or military theorist), presuming the primary goal is to save the personnel, not the ships (if the primary goal is to save as many ships as possible, then have the escorts scatter and sacrifice the Raddus and any personnel that can't be evacuated from it to the smaller ships in time).
They had 18 hours, that's more than enough time to come up with alternate solutions. Especially since I came up with a few while sitting there in the theater. Hell, Poe and company come up with one after an hour. However, Holdo wasn't open to discussing anything with anyone, that we know of. That Holdo couldn't discuss things immediately is fine, considering they were going through a crisis. That she refused to speak with Poe multiple times over the course of a day speaks of dismissing an asset without considering what he has to say. Even if you don't like the source, if someone has a point, it's a good idea to listen.

It was only at the tail end, when two ships were lost, after a mutiny, and Poe forgot about Commsec and Opsec that they ran were out of options.

That is the problem. Holdo already gave up on the rest of the fleet, followed a plan that might only work if everything goes right, and didn't try alternate plans in the meantime with her plan being a fallback.
Let's review the options that have been raised: Sending small ships/distress calls out to summon aid might get the word out without having to reach Crait first, but it won't save the fleet, unless said aid shows up very quickly with a capital ship fleet.
18 hours to have a fleet rally up at Crait, meet them in the chase, do a pincer tactic of their own against the First Order, or get bombers for hit and run attacks to discourage the enemy from pursuing. Or a dozen different things I haven't even thought of. Someone might have the contacts, like Maz for instance. I'm sure a lot of her clientele might be happy to give the First Order a black eye.

Point is, Holdo didn't even try. She hoped her Hail Mary of a plan works. To use a metaphor from SFDebris, betting the entire pot on 00 in Roulette isn't a sound strategy, and even if you do win, it's not because of great strategic thinking, it's because you got lucky.

Holdo bets the mortgage money on the roulette wheel landing on 00 several times in a row.
Sending out ships to bring more fuel is a big question mark- how quickly could they return, and how much fuel could they carry for the Raddus, even assuming they could find a safe harbor? Sending out the escorts will leave the Raddus open to enemy fighter attack.
Please prove that the escorts were necessary for fighter defense. As it was, there has been no proof that they were needed to stop fighters. Especially as the Raddus went hours without them and wasn't facing fighters attacking them.

Having one of the fleet escorts or Hyperdrive capable ships (like the one Rose and Finn we're on for example) stop at a fleet yard and purchase some ships, whether fuel tankers, transports, fighters, or a wing of bombers, enabling the fleet to either abandon ship (Holdo's plan), get reinforcements so that they could fight the First Order (Poe's 'blow stuff up' plan), or refuel so that they can run longer, giving them more time to call for help or run to a friendly place.
I doubt that there would be time to evacuate the Raddus to the escorts and have them scatter (though that might be the optimal plan if possible), given that as we saw, there was barely time to evacuate the Ninka's presumably smaller compliment to the Raddus before the Ninka ran out of fuel.
It they refuel, or stop the First Order with a few more bombers, or they just refuel all the transports I'mmediately, since Holdo doesn't give a crap about preserving any of their fleet, and just run away while the Raddus is on autopilot, they could have saved more lives and potentially, ships.
In any case, as long as the Raddus was being tracked, it was doomed. Unless they can get rid of the FO's tracking, then wherever the Raddus goes, it will be followed by a force it cannot defeat in battle. If it goes to a friendly world, it will bring that fleet down upon it. Short of summoning a capital ship fleet that can match the FO in open battle, the Raddus had to be abandoned.
Or a wing of bombers, see above.
The Resistance simply have very limited options here. If Hux/Snoke had shown more initiative and tactical creativity, then they could have mopped up the fleet before Holdo even had a chance to take command, and her abilities or lack thereof would have been irrelevant.
No, she had 18 hours to pursue other plans with her 'hide on Crait and hope we're not noticed to be used as a fall back. Especially since we see Poe and company trying their own failed plan.
For all we know, she only briefed a few people, and that's why it took the course of a day for them to make progress to fuel a few transports. Everyone else was panicking and running to escape pods because their leaders didn't brief them and instead danced around each other.
I agree that its likely that Holdo only briefed a few people.

What I disagree with is that this is in any way a sign of poor leadership on her part. A plan on which the survival of your faction depends, which relies on secrecy to succeed, should not be general knowledge.
Many hands make light work. Imagine if all transports were fueled and ready to go by hour 4 of the chase. They could have abandoned the Raddus immediately and the First Order couldn't find them.

Also, since the topic of traitors or spies was never brought up by Holdo, only how she dislikes Poe for being a trigger happy pilot, it didn't seem to be a concern for her. Especially since Poe was able to make outgoing calls twice, once to Maz, and once to Finn, and she, or the crew of the Raddus never noticed. Shame on Poe for getting his friends killed due to incompetence, but shame on Holdo and company for not monitoring comms.
Especially if the loyalty of much of your crew is in question. This is "need to know"- Holdo's job was to brief the people who needed to be briefed for the plan to be carried out. Its possible that Holdo underestimated the seriousness of the morale situation, but we also don't really know how general dissatisfaction with her command was. And frankly, asking your crew to keep their shit together for one day so that you can execute your battle plan without leaking it to the entire force is not unreasonable.

I mean, Holdo could have said "Yes, I have a plan, honest." But without specifics that it would be dangerous to divulge, would Poe have accepted that at face value? His on-screen actions lead me to suspect that the answer is "no".
When is it in question? Holdo never brings it up. Competence, yes, but never loyalty.

And remember that once the plan was explained to Poe, he fell into line and did as asked. He still disregarded Opsec, but he was loyal.

So your observations of his on-screen actions are faulty.
snip fashion and costume talk
The point I'm trying to make is that the cost of the audience misdirection is that, Holdo's actual capability and loyalties aside, the framing is that she doesn't seem to belong here, and belongs more with the weapon sellers and slavers at Canto Bight. When Star Wars, for the entirety of the franchise, has had significance behind it's costume design to signal who is what, this is betrayed in this film, and is a big reason why Holdo seems so off putting. It punishes audience members for using their ability to spot patterns, rather than reward them as they did before.

Or in simpler terms....
[image]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... 0105194513[/image]
One of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong....
Thank you. This is why refueling and bringing extra for everybody else seems like a better idea than a slow March of death. And since the plot requires the slow March of death, we have to wonder if they had better options, which they did, and didn't pursue, because Holdo doesn't talk to Poe, and maybe her other subordinates. Enough to which she had to face a mutiny.
Its simply not reasonable to suggest that a commander provoked a mutiny because she didn't reveal a plan which depended on secrecy to a single disgruntled officer who didn't need to know the plan and was recently demoted for reckless insubordination. Frankly, if she made a mistake with Poe, it was accomadating him as much as she did. I'd have brigged the jackass.
It is when her big plan seems to be let's let everyone die, because we have hope. That is a rather dangerous morale killer that makes it lucky she wasn't fragged, and only had weapons set on stun pointed at her. At best, it seems like you have no plans for surviving. And at worst, you're sacrificing everyone's lives to try and rally the galaxy Into action. Both are worrying for a crew who wants to see tomorrow.
As to whether your plan is ultimately better, that hinges on a number of unknowns: How much fuel could the small ships bring back? How quickly could they do so? Was there a safe port they could go to within range to fuel up? It might work. It might not.

Arguably the film should have done a better job of establishing why Holdo's plan was the best option. But I'm willing to largely give it a pass on this, because at the end of the day, its a Star Wars film, not a tactical manual, and we wouldn't want it to get bogged down in exposition.
Better than praying that a multitude of things go right and that the crew is okay with pointless deaths until you go, 'Psych, I wasn't actually to have you all die pointlessly, only the captains of the other ships.' this is why her run and hide plan should have been the fallback, not the main course of action. Her entire plan hinged on everything working.
Again, this is where I point out my South Korea example, in that unilateral disarmament to the point that a terrorist group is threatening without allies while neighbors with a hostile power is dangerous and suicidal. And that there's a difference between making peace with your enemy, and being an Idiot who sells out to the enemy.

It runs counter to sense. And yes, shit happens. But you can make shit happen without making your heroes accomplishments pointless and for nothing. Thematically, it means our heroes' actions led to nothing.
I'm not saying that the NR's actions are smart. Just that they are explicable within the context of the setting.

I don't think, however, that this invalidates the actions of the OT heroes. They defeated the Empire and bought the galaxy years of peace and freedom. That does not change simply because others' ineptitude ultimately squandered those gains. The fight goes on, but the only reason it can go on is because of the efforts of the OT heroes.

I do not share the view that because a victory is not permanent, it is pointless. By that standard, all of human history is pointless. And yes, some people would argue that, but its a bit too cynical and nihilistic a view for me.
No, I'm pointing out that it seems, even with Leia as part of the Republic leadership, and Luke as leader of the new Jedi, our heroes ruined everything they fought for. It could work, if the point of the story is that it's a tragedy over time, like King Arthur's Britain. But it's not, it's what they chose in order to have the sequels resemble the original trilogy, no matter the cost. It's destructive to the theme of Star Wars.
If Rey is correct, and the Republic only has a matter of weeks left in it, then time for holding your cards in reserve is pointless. Any port in a storm would be a better option than hoping they don't notice you. Or pursuing the above mentioned 'courier grabbing supplies, fuel, and reinforcements' plan.
In point of fact, laying low in the face of massed conventional firepower is pretty much how insurgencies operate. Leia undoubtably knows this from personal experience. And laying low and hoping you aren't noticed is definitely a better option than going to a port full of possible collaborators.

Again, this is something Leia has personal experience in. Remember Empire Strikes Back, where the Falcon was running from the Empire on a disabled hyperdrive, and they took a chance on a dubious ally by going to Lando at Cloud City? Remember how that ended? I can bet you that Leia remembers. She remembers being captured by the people who tortured her and blew up her home world. She remembers being used as bait to lure her brother into a trap. She remembers watching the man she loved being tortured and frozen in carbonite. Hell, even Cloud City ended up getting screwed over because of their presence there.

That's the kind of hard lesson one is not likely to quickly forget.
Remember when being a peaceful world on the sidelines, and not joining together with those already fighting grants your world survival, until the fascist empire blows up your world to set an example? I bet Leia also remembered that one too, and how a couple decades later, the same thing happened to the galaxy again from the First Order due to the New Republic and the Resistance not working together and putting an end to it immediately by joining forces, but instead hiding away hoping not to get noticed.

I bet she remembers that one especially well.

Besides, Leia is in a coma for most of the film, and isn't making decisions until Act 3.
Though, maybe that would have gotten in the way of the crucial scene where Rose and Finn are freeing animals but leaving the slave children to rot.
The plight of the slave children vs. the plight of the animals probably should have gotten more attention (though that would have made for a considerably more depressing film), but I don't really see what Rose and Finn could have realistically done about it under the circumstances.
Mostly it's a gripe that the film makes our heroes into Greenpeace while there's freaking child slaves wanting help. It shows that the film needed rewriting and someone to point out that the scene was saying oppression matters more for animals than for kids to our protagonists. Especially since Canto Bight was a bit of a plot cul de sac taking away screentime and didn't use the story it was developing.
This is why, as I have stated before, crisis management is important. Telling everyone you have a plan, but it's compartmentalized for security might not go over well, but at least it's better than saying that you have no plans at all, which inspired panic and mutiny. Holdo doesn't do anything like that. She's telling the Hero of Starkiller base to shut up and go away, when he could be settling the crews' nerves. It's a waste of resources, and backfired on her hard.
Could she have done more to appease Poe? Yes. Is she obligated to pander to the concerns of a single disgruntled, recently-disgraced subordinate? No, and its not an obvious conclusion that failing to do so will result in a mutiny.

If she did have reason to believe that Poe might mutiny, she should have brigged his ass.

And as I said to Kojiro, you can't cite Poe's actions at Starkiller Base in his defense, while ignoring his more recent demotion for recklessness and insubordination. Both are a part of his record.

Yes, Holdo could have said, and maybe should have said "There's a plan, but its compartmentalized." I'm not convinced that that would have made any difference with Poe, however, based on his actions on-screen. I mean, does one normally assume that a commander has no plan unless they immediately state that they have one?
You do if her briefing is, 'Have hope, we'll get the rest of the Galaxy to take up arms through our glorious deaths.'
And if he can get followers for a mutiny, others must worry about her leadership as well, because her stated 'Have hope' plan is costing them ships and maybe people.
It is frustrating to have to keep debating the same points over and over again.

The fact that a handful of people are shown participating in the mutiny does not in any way prove a general dissatisfaction with Holdo's leadership. Granted, the fact that most of the crew appeared to sit it out isn't a resounding endorsement of Holdo's leadership, but I get the sense that most of the crew basically said "Screw this" and got on with their jobs. Though there's really insufficient evidence to say for certain.
The only other crew response we seem to get is 'Abandon ship'. Mutiny, unless your crew really are pirates and cutthroats, is a sign of bad leadership. That's proof enough that she wasn't up to the job.
Okay, answer me this. Would Raiders of the Lost ark have been better if the Nazis in that film were the bad guys from Hogan's Heroes? Would we have been worried about Indy surviving serious peril if he's dealing with the likes of Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz?

I would think not, because it would be impossible to take seriously. Same issue here.

I agree that we don't want the First Order to be too invincible, or too cool that the fans want to be them. At the same time, we want our heroes to be capable of dealing with a serious threat that the audience cants immediately see a way out of. Having the hero trying to get out of a burning building, while desperately pulling on the door that says 'Push', while next to a fire axe, water hose, and fire extinguisher isn't exciting, it's goofy.

And to me, and a lot of others, that's what a non-serious threat means if they're only winning because the good guys are dumb, but the bad guys are even dumber. That's not exciting drama, It's a farce.
I don't get the impression that the heroes are stupid in TLJ (well, Poe aside), though the FO is definitely more inept. As I said, I think that this was more or less necessary, to a point, and I think that you are overstating somewhat the ease with which the heroes could have escaped the FO, or their reliance on FO incompetence. But I agree that the villains need to be somewhat threatening, and while there were points in the film where we got that, there was some stuff (most notably the Hux phone call scene, as I already noted) which was just excessive. A lot of directors and writers have problems introducing humor to a dramatic film in a manner that allows them to compliment, rather than clashing with, each other. The Prequels had the same problem, notoriously.
Glad you agree that the enemy should be menacing in some fashion, and that the heroes have to be the ones to win somehow, either by outfighting, or outsmarting the enemy. But they can't look like bullies picking on someone too idiotic to fie his own shoes.
Maybe, but it wasn't executed well, and left us with contrasting themes in all the subplots. A good story has the various plots wrap together, tie in together, or contrast each other, in theme and action. Otherwise, we're just wasting time that could be spent better elsewhere.
I think that a certain amount of thematic ambiguity was to some extent a deliberate choice in TLJ. Weather that works for you or not is somewhat a matter of personal taste. I'm not unsympathetic, because there are points that I wish the film had been more clear and less deceptive on myself.

I'm not certain how the particular bit with the kid at the end contradicts the films' themes, though.

Oh, by the way, is it alright with everyone if I just let Patroklos's post be? I'm already arguing this topic with two other posters, and a lot of Patroklos's post appears to be just rehashing the same points.
It's not the kid at the end, it's the entire Canto Bight subplot with the fighters being sold to both sides, showing that the fight is just profiting the rich, Luke calling for the death of the Jedi, the Resistance being wiped out aside from who is on the Falcon, and Ren throwing away any possible redemption, the New Republic losing, Luke dying, etc. leads us to a universe where every decision they've made only fueling the rich upper class, while the poor are dying or mistreated as cattle slaves.

Maybe the kid will become a Jedi. Maybe, with Kylo Ren around, he'll become like Anakin, a former slave turned powerful force user who wipes out anyone in his way, because that's the way the Star Wars galaxy rolls when it comes to it's cycles.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-04-25 09:53am

Not really a response to anyone, but just a thought regarding the "how much is Holdo obligated to tell her subordinates (specifically Poe) of the plan" debate.

Now, obviously a commander is not obligated to tell every subordinate every detail of every plan (because of compartmentalization, Opsec, etc), but I think we can all agree that they are under an obligation to make sure each subordinate is up-to-date on all of the details they need in order to carry out their orders.

Where things get tricky in TLJ's case is that Poe's place in the chain of command is rather nebulous for most of the movie's run time. He's explicitly named as being in charge of the Resistance's fighter wings, which puts him pretty high up there, but he's not able to do much with that because it's hard to be in charge of the fighters after they all get destroyed. He butts heads with Holdo (and Leia to a lesser extent early on), and gets locked out of the planning process, but he never gets officially relieved. When Holdo sacrifices herself, he's almost immediately put in charge of the remaining forces, but a lot of that is Leia's influence and by that point every other viable candidate is dead, but the movie also never really shows anyone other than Holdo outranking him after most of the command staff is wiped out in the attack on the bridge.

So I guess the big question for me is whether Poe was still considered part of the line of succession prior to the mutiny, and if so, how far down the list was he? If he was next in line for command while also being locked out of command consultations, that is actually pretty irresponsible, because it impedes a smooth transition of command if something were to happen to Holdo prior to Poe learning the details of the plan. At best you'd have delays while the new CO gets caught up, at worst you get conflicting orders generating confusion in the ranks. If he wasn't in line for command during that time, then just telling him that a plan existed and then giving him something to do to keep him busy would probably have been plenty.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Galvatron » 2018-04-25 11:38am

Having seen some of his other videos about certain scenes that he's re-edited, I'm looking forward to his version of TLJ quite a bit.


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Elheru Aran
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-04-25 01:23pm

To be quite frank, I see no particular reason to exclude Poe, seeing as apparently the entire damn Resistance was aboard the Raddus, and therefore it's not like they have plenty of officers to go around. It's quite realistic that he might end up being the sole officer in command, and should therefore be in the know. Adhering to a strict chain of command, in this situation, can only hurt them. And I can believe that's what happened. Doesn't make it any less stupid.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-04-25 04:40pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-04-25 01:23pm
To be quite frank, I see no particular reason to exclude Poe, seeing as apparently the entire damn Resistance was aboard the Raddus, and therefore it's not like they have plenty of officers to go around. It's quite realistic that he might end up being the sole officer in command, and should therefore be in the know. Adhering to a strict chain of command, in this situation, can only hurt them. And I can believe that's what happened. Doesn't make it any less stupid.
That is a little bit of what I was trying to get into with my post. If he's next in line to command, or close to it, it is irresponsible to not keep him up to date on the plan, or at least make sure he knows the general outline and who he needs to talk to if he has to take over.

It reminds me of something that happened in the state I live in over a decade ago. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor were from different parties, and the Governor and his people mostly just shut the Lieutenant Governor out of day-to-day operations as a result. Then, one day, there was a nasty snowstorm that blew through. Problem is, the Governor was out of the country at the time, and his staff were still locking the Lieutenant Governor out of the process even though she was supposed to be taking over in the Governor's absence. The whole thing turned into a massive clusterfuck, of the "school buses full of kids stranded in the snow for 5 hours because they didn't let school out early enough" kind of clusterfuck.

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