How did the AT AT's breach the shield

[texanmarauder]

(Alderaan is the main weapons supplier for the Rebellion? I'd like a source for that...a handful of corvettes hardly makes them Space Boeing .)

its in the novelization. in fact, its the next line after vaders "defense system" line. stated by tarkin in the novel "Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see." plus, alderaan basically started the rebellion.

[seanrobertson]

(Alderaan is the main weapons supplier for the Rebellion? I'd like a source for that...a handful of corvettes hardly makes them Space Boeing .)

its in the novelization. in fact, its the next line after vaders "defense system" line. stated by tarkin in the novel "Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see.".

Interesting -- didn't know about that.

Thanks!

[Khaat]

*snip* so wookiepedia isn't 100% accurate.

I recognize this - but as I said, I don't have deep sources for Rogue One, just what I can find online.

plus, wookiepedia also says that the shield was collapsed when the ISDs went kamikaze on it even though in the movie, the shield was clearly still up when admiral raddus said"Rogue One, may the Force be with you" while looking down at the perpetuating shock wave from the DS shot. that was after the ISDs took out the gate.

Could be. There are a few low-orbit shots where the edge of the atmosphere is hazy and others where it has an "aura", which would suggest shield. But if the gate didn't control the shield, destroying it would only trap everyone (and the signal, "because reasons" ) under it. The last clear indicator (in this clip) of the shield is when the Star Destroyer is going into it off the outside shoulder of the gate, at 2:38 (-ish). Is that ripple effect the shield collapsing? Well, if the gate is closed, and the Star Destroyer is still moving through the shield layer, it looks like the shield is down. At 2:58, we see a "telephoto" shot of the DS rising over the horizon (and no shield lensing effect). Tarkin's view at 3:06 shows atmospheric envelope, no shield lensing. 3:12 - "All ship prepare to jump to hyperspace", no shield lensing. (All these time-stamps are for the video you provided.)

Maybe you found another clip, but this one (yours, below but embedded) doesn't include the DS blast (or following propagation), or "Rogue One, may the Force be with you." Please provide the link for that other video, if you want to use it as evidence.

again, the shield is visible after the gate is taken out. so clearly the gate wasn't generating it and the ISDs provided enough disruption for transmission. or..........

(In the Full Editor, there's a button on the far right side "youtube" - just take the "s" off the end of the "https" in the address to embed the video. The tags around the address are [ youtube][ /youtube], without the spaces).

Would have made more sense for the gate to be jamming the signal than anything else. Plenty of light (EM radiation) was getting through the shield, so what does it stop, other than X-Wings and whatever torpedoes they were shooting (physical stuff)? Does it stop hyperspace comms? Was the comms tower capable of transmitting farther than orbit? Seemed to be a pretty big deal for a simple ground-to-space relay.

rook was able to contact the fleet from inside the shield well before those two ISDs took out the gate. if that could happen, then why not just transmit the data already? the master switch had already been thrown.

Bodhi didn't have the plans, and somehow Jyn and Cassian couldn't have sent them to him. Just as well: the workstation/toggle place hardlinked to Bodhi's ship got blown up after the "take down the gate" message went out.

Yes, one of the many issues with the "get the signal out" mission: how does the shield stop comms, if it doesn't stop comms? The planet still gets sunlight, right? How would it stop the awesome real-time hyper-luminal comms common in-univese? Maybe it's a signal density thing. Pretty much left making excuses for the "why" and "how": under technical analysis, it starts to fall apart. But it's what we have to work with.

[texanmarauder]

Maybe you found another clip, but this one (yours, below but embedded) doesn't include the DS blast (or following propagation), or "Rogue One, may the Force be with you." Please provide the link for that other video, if you want to use it as evidence.

this was also included in one of my posts on the last page that you pretty much ignored entirely.

[texanmarauder]

this one is in reverse but has much better quality. you can clearly see the shield as admiral raddus looks down at the DS blast shockwave. its the blueish looking "aura". that same aura is there right as the ISDs hit the shield gate, before and after. it doesn't actually seem to drop until after the DS blast. so I'm thinking that it wasn't dissipated until well after the DS blast. after all, the planetary shield doesn't HAVE to be generated by the shield gate. it wasn't in ROTJ or TFA. the gate could just be a gate that allows entry/exit without having to lower the whole shield, nothing more.

[Galvatron]

Yes, one of the many issues with the "get the signal out" mission: how does the shield stop comms, if it doesn't stop comms? The planet still gets sunlight, right? How would it stop the awesome real-time hyper-luminal comms common in-univese? Maybe it's a signal density thing. Pretty much left making excuses for the "why" and "how": under technical analysis, it starts to fall apart. But it's what we have to work with.

Maybe it doesn't stop communications so much as it garbles them. In TESB, Vader ordered Piett to move the Executor out of the asteroid field so they could "send a clear transmission" to the Emperor. Maybe they only did that so they could lower the shields without endangering the ship.

[texanmarauder]

Maybe it doesn't stop communications so much as it garbles them. Remember how Vader ordered Piett to move the Executor out of the asteroid field so he could send a clear transmission to the Emperor? Maybe they only did that so they could lower the shields without endangering the ship.

could be. but after the switch was thrown and the signal disrupter deactivated, rook was able to clearly contact the fleet to tell them to shut the shield off so the plans could be transmitted. I have to agree with khaat on one point. the whole "transmit the data" mission is a mess consistency wise. I mean, sending a message to the fleet telling them to take down the shield so that they could send a message? makes no sense.

[Imperial528]

There's a simple reason that's within full plausibility.

The antenna used to the transmit the plans used a frequency absorbed by the shield, whereas standard communications frequencies would get through.

Given the importance of Scarif, that would make sense, as it would prevent any double agents inside the facility from easily transmitting data to a ship waiting at the edge of the system.

[Khaat]

Didn't ignore, it, had already qualified my position on Scarif is going to be limited: only saw Rogue One once, only have crappy resolution online videos to check. The more information I get, I revise my position as needed: so yes, I was incorrect in saying the DS beam editing skipped the part where we would have been shown shield interaction*. What it looks like now, is that the shield was down when the DS fired, so no shield interaction.
Regarding this video:
0:00 - Where's the shield? There's no line across/above the visible atmosphere between the DS and the target site
0:19 - Is that a shield? There is a line across the horizon, but it wasn't there seconds ago. Possibly just the atmosphere, then? (at this point, the DS single-ignition blast has already fired)
0:31 - Is the shield gone again? I don't see that same line at the horizon, again.

After the protagonists have opened/deactivated/penetrated? the shield in order to transmit data by dropping a pair of ships through the shield gate station, after which there is no shield evidence, then maybe shield evidence after getting blasted by the DS, then no shield evidence again (chronologically). "Maybe" starts to look like "not".

Maybe it doesn't stop communications so much as it garbles them. In TESB, Vader ordered Piett to move the Executor out of the asteroid field so they could "send a clear transmission" to the Emperor. Maybe they only did that so they could lower the shields without endangering the ship.

Was the concern the ship's own shields distorting the transmission, or maybe the irregular 2-planets-worth-of-debris flying around them? Would be pretty bad if regular wartime operation (i.e., "shields up") degraded communications for a ship intended to serve as the command-and-control vessel for a fleet. (An SSD could have literally thousands of antennae outside and inside its shields.) And we did see the scratchy holograms during the pursuit conference call, from ships deeper into the field. Insufficient information for me to pick "shield effect on communications" for that instance.

Here, we're given no logical reason, but are told that the shield blocks some transmissions (because Bodhi is able to patch in to the base's system and contact the rebel fleet, yet Jyn and Cassian have set up the Big Transmitter(tm) and it's blocked? Is it a bandwidth thing?) Then the gate is wrecked: this should have cut them off, if the gate was just an opening and the shield was controlled elsewhere.

Is this a shielded planet?

Yeah, no, it isn't shielded. You know this world pretty well, too: it's Earth, as seen from space. But it has a similar appearance.

EDIT: quote attribution

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's speculated on, and inferred, in the film that it's a bandwidth issue: Andor asks what the big dish is for, Rook says something like "must take a lot of bandwidth to send those files."

So we have a planet shield that stops high-bandwidth high-intensity transmission, which makes sense but still allows the much less data-intensive voice transmissions. Which also makes sense.

[Galvatron]

Here, we're given no logical reason, but are told that the shield blocks some transmissions (because Bodhi is able to patch in to the base's system and contact the rebel fleet, yet Jyn and Cassian have set up the Big Transmitter(tm) and it's blocked? Is it a bandwidth thing?)

Maybe the transmission of a large amount of data like the DS schematics requires longer stretches of downtime than a shield's normal refresh rate allows. That same refresh rate may accommodate routine communications, however.

EDIT: Which is pretty much what the post above mine just suggested.

[texanmarauder]

What it looks like now, is that the shield was down when the DS fired, so no shield interaction.

not according to wookiepedia. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Scarif according to this article, it was the blast from the DS that dissipated it. this I actually believe since we see the shield still up after the gate was destroyed. if the gate was generating the shield, then how could it still be up after the gate was destroyed? damn wookiepedia.......

I did post another video under that one that is in reverse with much better quality. on closer inspection, when the ISD hits the shield gate it must have hit the shield under it. more than half the length of that ISD goes through the gate structure yet isn't seen on the other side. it should have been visible had it been intact. the only explanation is that it hit the shield and just splintered like the fighters did. in fact, if you look at this video, which shows that scene in its entirety, you actually see the edge hitting the shield and the hull giving way. so, gate is destroyed, but shield doesn't collapse immediately as it should. the ISD crashing through it, I believe, is what causes the shield to "fluctuate", causing enough interference to allow data transmission. 3:07 the shield is clearly still up, visible as the same blue/greenish "aura" seen at 0:43. that's my opinion anyway. it certainly fits the situation.

[Khaat]

I'm going to call BS on

more than half the length of that ISD goes through the gate structure yet isn't seen on the other side.

Post-It notes on (full screen) screen gives me ~20% (8mm) of the star destroyer (46mm wedge sides) isn't where I would expect it to be, emerging beneath the upper deck of the gate structure.

The gate isn't flat, the articulated 1/4-pipe bits that push into the shield to make the opening are on the bits that angle down (at about 30 degrees from horizontal - the inside pushes down more sharply than the shallow-angled top-side.) The gate is a really big structure! And the gate structure itself isn't on the shield directly, just close (in relative terms):

So did the collision push the "shield paddles" of the gate through the shield? What's the whole story?

Yes, awesome, isn't it, how Wookieepedia can have some really neat stuff, yet still remain suspect?

Found this while looking for any novelization info:

The TIE fighters would concentrate on his flagship once the Empire recognized his intent. But in truth, he didn’t need to hold out long. The shield gate would regenerate swiftly enough; Rogue One’s window of opportunity to transmit would be narrow, and if it closed there would be no other.

and

Locked together by cataclysmic devastation, their entwined wreckage plummeted toward the inner ring of the orbital gate station. Where the Star Destroyers struck the energy field, the shield shimmered and radiated and finally broke, dissipating like foam on the crest of a wave.

From ESB (Hoth theater shield) and RotJ (DSII shield) and TFA (Starkiller base shield), we know that Big Thing Shields don't have to be "glowy" in their resting state. We could even include cap ship shields like the SD in that as a low-end, pushing it back to ANH. With no-aura/aura shots before anything happens to it, I can't rely on the "horizon aura=shield" for Scarif's.

[Khaat]

Also, re: novelization: apparently there was an inner shield that was taken down inside the gate (I guess the gate sat in the shield like a grommet?), the rest of Scarif's shield was still up when the crash brought down just that inner shield.

The film just had the "shield paddles" opening a gap for passage.

[texanmarauder]

I just thought of something. the shield gate couldn't have generated or controlled the entire shield. having your shield generator outside of the shield itself would defeat the purpose. that's why they fighters were attacking the shield and not just all-hitting the gate itself. Its the only thing that makes sense. plus, there is video evidence to support the "glowy" effect being the shield. 1:26 in the following video shows that glow being the exact same color and appearance inside the gate when its closed as you see around the planet.

So did the collision push the "shield paddles" of the gate through the shield? What's the whole story?

that is the best answer so far. if the gate generated the shield itself, then they would have just targeted the gate and and blown it to hell or something instead of probing the shield itself.

Post-It notes on (full screen) screen gives me ~20% (8mm) of the star destroyer (46mm wedge sides) isn't where I would expect it to be, emerging beneath the upper deck of the gate structure.

when it cut away from the scene where the ISD was smashing through the gate the ISD was still maintaining its downward momentum. meaning, whenever you took your post it stuff, it was still going. we still never see anything emerge from the bottom. the only explanation is that its hitting the shield and smashing to pieces, just like the X-wings. we even see the shield react only after the bow of the ISD makes it all the way through the shield gate. clearly shield gate doesn't = generator.

And the gate structure itself isn't on the shield directly, just close (in relative terms)

even more evidence to suggest/imply that the gate doesn't generate the shield itself. which would mean that the shield is still up after the gate goes kablooey.

Also, re: novelization: apparently there was an inner shield that was taken down inside the gate (I guess the gate sat in the shield like a grommet?), the rest of Scarif's shield was still up when the crash brought down just that inner shield.

I am guessing that you just mean the "gate" part of the shield? that would make for a very plausible scenario. the ISD goes through the gate, and in the process, pushes the paddles into the shield. this opens the shield long enough for the plans to get transmitted, then the shield goes back up. that would explain why we see the shield still up after the gate is kaboshed. that still means that the DS fired a low power shot straight through an imperial planetary shield with no interaction.

Locked together by cataclysmic devastation, their entwined wreckage plummeted toward the inner ring of the orbital gate station. Where the Star Destroyers struck the energy field, the shield shimmered and radiated and finally broke, dissipating like foam on the crest of a wave

we see ONE star destroyer strike the ring. the other was disabled and floating above it. that also fits the "only the shield inside the gate goes down, not the whole shield" theory.

With no-aura/aura shots before anything happens to it, I can't rely on the "horizon aura=shield" for Scarif's

we see shots of that "aura" as the rebel fleet exits hyperspace above the gate itself. we also see it as the X-wings are going for the shield gate. we also see the horizon of the shield itself when the poe lookalike smashes into the shield. its the same blue/green aura we see after the shield gate gets rammed. literally the same.

[Khaat]

What we have found is that the novelization shield makes sense: it sits as a hole in the shield, and generates an inner shield gate. The crashing Star Destroyers damage the (inner shield generating) inner ring of the station, destroying the inner gate shield allowing the transmission. (Both quotes were from the novelization, which put both Star Destroyers into the inner gate.)

The cinematic shield makes less sense: the gate station appears to lower paddles into the shield in normal operation from above the shield, opening a hole (somehow that can't be replicated by a slow-moving ship? ), yet when the Star Destroyer crashes into the outer structure, the transmission can escape the shield. The paddles are in the center (at roughly half the total diameter of the station, and on opposite quarters of the inner circumference), and the Star Destroyer is going through the outer supporting braces (not the inner part where the "paddles" are and through the "not paddles" quarters of the inner circumference structure). So as the gate is crashed and if it does not control the shield, the signal would be sealed inside the shield. The station is heavily damaged, but is not shown to lose station-keeping (as would be required to re-open into the shield by dropping the whole station to where the paddles would maybe open the shield on contact in their retracted positions.)

The Post-It note measurements were taken at the very last appearance of the wide shot of the SD going into the gate: the latest the online video allowed, but the SD was also slowing as it impacted the structure. I'm not prepared to "guess" that "more than half the length" will eventually go missing, since we don't see it. I reported factually that 8 of 46mm of the wedge-side measurement was missing at last shown status.

even more evidence to suggest/imply that the gate doesn't generate the shield itself. which would mean that the shield is still up after the gate goes kablooey.

... Which would logically slam the shield closed and lock the transmission in. The entire rebel fleet effort to "open the shield" by destroying the gate station is successful, the transmisson escapes.

The wide shots show aura on the horizon, many of the closer shots (after gate-crash, but before DS blast) don't, then even after gate-crash and DS blast, wide shots have aura on the horizon.

its the same blue/green aura we see after the shield gate gets rammed. literally the same.

But this horizon aura is: there/not there/there/not there/there/gets crashed/there/not there/there/gets DS blasted/not there/there. I certainly accept that when we see interaction, or when we see it close-up, it's there when it's supposed to be, but I can't accept the horizon aura as proof of shield. To that end, I provided a picture of our very own earth with un-shielded atmosphere aura. Here's another (from the ISS):

[texanmarauder]

The crashing Star Destroyers damage the (inner shield generating) inner ring of the station, destroying the inner gate shield allowing the transmission. (Both quotes were from the novelization, which put both Star Destroyers into the inner gate.)

both of these statements are directly contradicted by the movie and therefore disregarded. cinematic still trumps the novels when it contradicts said novel.

The Post-It note measurements were taken at the very last appearance of the wide shot of the SD going into the gate: the latest the online video allowed, but the SD was also slowing as it impacted the structure. I'm not prepared to "guess" that "more than half the length" will eventually go missing, since we don't see it.

but we do. and that ring is not so thick as to hide over half a kilometer of ISD. or three quarters, the only plausible explanation is that its hitting the shield and splintering.

I reported factually that 8 of 46mm of the wedge-side measurement was missing at last shown status.

factually to who? you are the only one who can see that.

Which would logically slam the shield closed and lock the transmission in. The entire rebel fleet effort to "open the shield" by destroying the gate station is successful, the transmisson escapes.

and just how long does it take for the signal to get through? weather you admit it or not the shield was still up after the gate was destroyed. once it was destroyed the shield should have collapsed immediately. it didn't. so the only explanation left is that the ISD disrupted the shield as the gate was destroyed.

The wide shots show aura on the horizon, many of the closer shots (after gate-crash, but before DS blast) don't, then even after gate-crash and DS blast, wide shots have aura on the horizon.

nobody ever accused star wars of being consistent. my point still stands.

With no-aura/aura shots before anything happens to it, I can't rely on the "horizon aura=shield" for Scarif's.

you certainly have funny ways of determining what is and isn't proof. you wont accept the visible shield aura without having seen it being shot or what have you (even with a plethora of shots that show the shield up before it gets shots taken at it) and you wont accept that the shield was up when the DS fired, even though we never see the shield collapse, even when the gate is taken out,but you will accept that alderaan had a shield without knowing how the superlaser works, what the "shield interaction" would look like, what the superlaser effect would look like..... all based on a vague statement in the novel that wasn't in the movie and taken out of context and that you cant even prove had anything to do with shields. the word hypocrite comes to mind.

[texanmarauder]

"You can see the blue sheen surrounding the entire planet" Rogue One co-producer John Swartz says. "The shield gate is the security. As Imperial ships and cargo come through, it punches a hole in the shield so they can pass. The gate officer gives out clearances as they give out their call signs."

from somebody who actually worked on the film confirming that the blue sheen is the shield. it doesn't get any more specific or explicit than that. it also confirms that the gate is just that. a gate. not a generator.

http://ew.com/article/2016/11/21/rogue- ... ield-gate/

[Khaat]

The crashing Star Destroyers damage the (inner shield generating) inner ring of the station, destroying the inner gate shield allowing the transmission. (Both quotes were from the novelization, which put both Star Destroyers into the inner gate.)

both of these statements are directly contradicted by the movie and therefore disregarded. cinematic still trumps the novels when it contradicts said novel.

Yes, but you expressed confusion over what was being discussed, with the novelization quotes being separated (because they were separate where I found them, so I didn't consolidate them): this was clarification for you. I know that cinematic trumps novelization where they conflict, seanroberts explained it to you pages ago over the canon status of the novelizations. Are you even reading what I write, or just building Strawmen?

The Post-It note measurements were taken at the very last appearance of the wide shot of the SD going into the gate: the latest the online video allowed, but the SD was also slowing as it impacted the structure. I'm not prepared to "guess" that "more than half the length" will eventually go missing, since we don't see it.

but we do. and that ring is not so thick as to hide over half a kilometer of ISD. or three quarters, the only plausible explanation is that its hitting the shield and splintering.

Show me. I don't currently have the means of screen-caps to show your video in stills, and the last we see of the collision between SD and gate station, more than half the long side of the SD is still above the shield station. The POV doesn't change, the DS isn't getting significantly closer or farther away from the camera (so no perspective alteration), and its length can be fixed before it even begins colliding with the gate, and checked again at the last we see of that collision before the shot changes.

I reported factually that 8 of 46mm of the wedge-side measurement was missing at last shown status.

factually to who? you are the only one who can see that.

Factually in that it's graphically represented on the screen and we don't see what you said it was. Click the damned button and stop the play-back, doofus! I offer re-capturable data-points and calculations and you say "NUH-UH!" What work have you done to show "more than half smashed on the shield!"? None at all.

Which would logically slam the shield closed and lock the transmission in. The entire rebel fleet effort to "open the shield" by destroying the gate station is successful, the transmisson escapes.

and just how long does it take for the signal to get through?

You provided the video, you count the timer across the bottom for the elapsed time of the transmission. Again, "it happened" trumps "never happened!" Provide your own evidence (and no, the time for the signal to be transmitted has nothing at all to do with whether the shield is merely "disrupted" or "down": the Mon Cal commander gets the completing transmission after the shield ripple effect has ended.)

weather you admit it or not the shield was still up after the gate was destroyed. once it was destroyed the shield should have collapsed immediately. it didn't. so the only explanation left is that the ISD disrupted the shield as the gate was destroyed.

Care to prove that? Because I have an explanation that fits the facts (gate-crash, transmission gets through, distant horizon aura is not "definitely the shield", only "maybe the shield", both before and after shown interactions with the shield) and you don't want to consider it. Hells, I have even found orbital images of Earth where clouds make it look very much like the distant horizon aura on Scarif. What have you provided? Self-righteous indignation? Something explained to you, here, to knock over a Strawman?

The wide shots show aura on the horizon, many of the closer shots (after gate-crash, but before DS blast) don't, then even after gate-crash and DS blast, wide shots have aura on the horizon.

nobody ever accused star wars of being consistent. my point still stands.

If your point is:

nobody ever accused star wars of being consistent.

I can't even agree with that point.

This is why we evaluate each situation on the data available ("data" is a fancy name for "facts" or "evidence"!), build hypotheses, and test them. This is why when I don't know, I find data first, not reasons to disbelieve. I don't write-off data that doesn't fit my preconceptions. I revise my hypothesis and incorporate new data and reevaluate original data in this adjustment.

With no-aura/aura shots before anything happens to it, I can't rely on the "horizon aura=shield" for Scarif's.

you certainly have funny ways of determining what is and isn't proof. you wont accept the visible shield aura without having seen it being shot or what have you (even with a plethora of shots that show the shield up before it gets shots taken at it) and you wont accept that the shield was up when the DS fired, even though we never see the shield collapse, even when the gate is taken out,but you will accept that alderaan had a shield without knowing how the superlaser works, what the "shield interaction" would look like, what the superlaser effect would look like..... all based on a vague statement in the novel that wasn't in the movie and taken out of context and that you cant even prove had anything to do with shields. the word hypocrite comes to mind.

More Strawman. Well, language is a consistent issue for you. Is the far horizon aura ever shot? Do you see the part in the part 2 battle video when they follow the fighter at the beginning, and watch the horizon behind it? When it goes from no aura, to aura as the fighter crosses? do you think that means the shield is down, then up? Or maybe that the far horizon aura is not a reliable indicator of the shield? Yeah, I know your answer already. You made up your mind a long time ago, and just. keep. chanting. it.

My position on Alderaan having a shield has nothing to do with the novel, but that's the second time you've tried to tell yourself what my position comes from the novel, more than once: that's the first strike of dishonesty from you, after I already corrected you on it.

The second strike was your "wild ass guess" that I thought my opinion was first as good as canon, the third: then later revising that strawman (after I corrected you) to thinking that I thought my opinion was better than canon, because you wanted to argue your pet peeve with the wrong language.

You have failed to disprove my interpretations of events (only denied them), have disregarded evidence when provided (planet Earth: no shield, similar distant horizon aura), and otherwise gone out of your way to pick fights over your own word choices. You have constructed and reconstructed a strawman of my position after being corrected, because it suits your agenda. You've drawn on a consensus not reached regarding shield permeability in this very thread, as an Appeal to Authority. You maintain a Wall of Ignorance when data does not support your position, without a counter. You construct a new Strawman when I draw up the differences between novelization and cinematic versions of event, going out of your way to ignore the quote tags, so you can argue canonicity of novelizations in contradiction of the film when the rest of us already agreed to that two pages ago when seanroberts explained the status of novelizations TO YOU.

My position on Scarif's shield fits the story and shows inconsistency in the SFX regarding that distant horizon aura (there/not there), so I can discard that as a reliable indicator of the shield. Hells, I've revised my position as I acquired more data, as is honest. First I held that Rogue One cut POV during the shot of the DS shot and we didn't get to see the shield interaction (from re-sized and cropped online video sources), then I revised my position with new data to conclude that the shield was already down before the DS arrived.

I have outlined my position on Alderaan's shield and NOT inflated my position to canon status (which is what you really want to argue - and it didn't happen that way).

I did some good deeds (quotes, video tags).
I lost my patience and let you have some "not cool" ridicule and sarcasm you still deserve.
I also tried being understanding when you had the displayed mental acuity of a paper-weight.
I made allowances that English wasn't your first language when you had serious issues with comprehending what I was saying.
I was gracious when you conceded (when you were going to walk away or be stupid to continue), then you doubled down on stupid.

You? You want to add special shield-non-interacting properties of the DS superlaser "WHILE STRIKING DOWN WOOLLY THINKING WITH WOOLLIER LANGUAGE!" Oh, and no evidence to support that, just denial of others' conclusions based on data anyone sees when watching the same film. You can't hold up your end. The only thing you have delivered is information you have been provided without understanding it, misused language, and far too much pride to let it go when it has been made clear you aren't even arguing the same thing.

Dislike speculation all you like, but be sure it is when you want to call it that; learn to recognize the difference between speculation and conclusion. Learn what "fact", "data", and "evidence" mean. If you think what someone sees on-screen isn't evidence, I suggest you avoid committing crimes in your future, or a judge will be happy to educate you in what evidence is, and the weight conclusions drawn from it can have.

[texanmarauder]

Yes, but you expressed confusion over what was being discussed, with the novelization quotes being separated (because they were separate where I found them, so I didn't consolidate them): this was clarification for you.

there was no confusion. that was in response to the fact that you stated that the novelization shield made more sense than the cinematic shield. I was just pointing out that in canon the cinematic is going to trump the novel in the event of a contradiction. anybody debating anything star wars these days would point that out as well.

Show me. I don't currently have the means of screen-caps to show your video in stills, and the last we see of the collision between SD and gate station, more than half the long side of the SD is still above the shield station.

I already did. in more than one video. in the wide angle shot of the ISD going through the gate you actually see debris from the hull flying up along the left side of the hull from below the point of impact with the gate itself. yet we never see the tip emerge. we do see the shield fluctuating from the impact. the only logical conclusion is the ISD is hitting the shield and splintering, as I have said before.

What work have you done to show "more than half smashed on the shield!"? None at all

I just posted the videos to show proof of what I was claiming. not to mention pointed out that more than a quarter of the ship had already passed through the gate and it was still moving when it switched scenes. common sense would say that with its momentum, plus the planets gravity, that at least half the ship would hit the shield and pancake.

You provided the video, you count the timer across the bottom for the elapsed time of the transmission. Again, "it happened" trumps "never happened!" Provide your own evidence (and no, the time for the signal to be transmitted has nothing at all to do with whether the shield is merely "disrupted" or "down": the Mon Cal commander gets the completing transmission after the shield ripple effect has ended.)

ok, so a few seconds tops.

Care to prove that? Because I have an explanation that fits the facts (gate-crash, transmission gets through, distant horizon aura is not "definitely the shield", only "maybe the shield", both before and after shown interactions with the shield) and you don't want to consider it. Hells, I have even found orbital images of Earth where clouds make it look very much like the distant horizon aura on Scarif. What have you provided? Self-righteous indignation? Something explained to you, here, to knock over a Strawman?

co-producer John Swartz's word trumps your denial. he says the blue sheen or the "aura" is the shield. point proven.

This is why we evaluate each situation on the data available ("data" is a fancy name for "facts" or "evidence"!), build hypotheses, and test them. This is why when I don't know, I find data first, not reasons to disbelieve. I don't write-off data that doesn't fit my preconceptions. I revise my hypothesis and incorporate new data and reevaluate original data in this adjustment.

if you say so. I just go with what I see on screen and with the novels that isn't contradicted by canon.

More Strawman. Well, language is a consistent issue for you. Is the far horizon aura ever shot? Do you see the part in the part 2 battle video when they follow the fighter at the beginning, and watch the horizon behind it? When it goes from no aura, to aura as the fighter crosses? do you think that means the shield is down, then up? Or maybe that the far horizon aura is not a reliable indicator of the shield? Yeah, I know your answer already. You made up your mind a long time ago, and just. keep. chanting. it.

I made up my mind because of what I saw. you have said nothing that makes me change my mind. you have shown me nothing that makes me change it. 99% of your arguments have been ridiculing me. and I addressed your issues in this quote already. its called inconsistency. look that word up. not to mention the co-producer confirmed the blue aura as the shield. get over it.

You have failed to disprove my interpretations of events (only denied them), have disregarded evidence when provided (planet Earth: no shield, similar distant horizon aura), and otherwise gone out of your way to pick fights over your own word choices.

its your job to prove it, not me to disprove it. you haven't done that either. you outright deny on screen evidence. the only one picking fights over word choices is YOU. you are the one who keeps complaining about my language every other fucking sentence. you don't even know the definitions of the words you like to throw around to make yourself feel like a big man. have fun with that.

My position on Scarif's shield fits the story and shows inconsistency in the SFX regarding that distant horizon aura (there/not there), so I can discard that as a reliable indicator of the shield.

you mean it fits off of what you read on wookiepedia, who have already proven to not be accurate on certain elements. plus, I already stated that it was inconsistent. you said that if that was my point then you couldn't agree. so which is it? consistant or inconsistent?

You? You want to add special shield-non-interacting properties of the DS superlaser "WHILE STRIKING DOWN WOOLLY THINKING WITH WOOLLIER LANGUAGE!" Oh, and no evidence to support that, just denial of others' conclusions based on data anyone sees when watching the same film.

show me where the shield collapses. you cant. we see the shield after the gate is destroyed. therefore since we don't see the shield collapse, and we see it after the gate is destroyed, the shield is still up. after all, we don't need dialogue to establish WHAT WE SEE ON SCREEN. as for denial, grain for the goose my friend.

[Khaat]

*snip* you expressed confusion over what was being discussed *snip*

there was no confusion. that was in response to the fact that you stated that the novelization shield made more sense than the cinematic shield. I was just pointing out that in canon the cinematic is going to trump the novel in the event of a contradiction. anybody debating anything star wars these days would point that out as well.

1. Shift Goal Posts.

Locked together by cataclysmic devastation, their entwined wreckage plummeted toward the inner ring of the orbital gate station. Where the Star Destroyers struck the energy field, the shield shimmered and radiated and finally broke, dissipating like foam on the crest of a wave

we see ONE star destroyer strike the ring. the other was disabled and floating above it. that also fits the "only the shield inside the gate goes down, not the whole shield" theory.

Clearly, your position is that in the cinematic version only one SD hits the shield gate! <- SAD FACE! immediately following an identified novelization quote. Looks to us on the outside that you're confused at this point. And we were all here when you learned about novel canon status, kitten. Were you paying attention?
2. Strawman. Specifically:
For the reading-comprehension-impaired:

novelization shield makes sense

means "the novelization's depiction of the system has internal consistency: it follows rules and does not require added elements to 'make the story work'". I would have to lose over 50 IQ points to really know for sure, but you seem to think that means "I think the novelization is how it works, even though the movie is different". Nowhere is there any "wiggle room" for a reasonable person to assume I was saying this, yet you seem to.

*snip* and the last we see of the collision between SD and gate station, more than half the long side of the SD is still above the shield station.

I just posted the videos to show proof of what I was claiming. not to mention pointed out that more than a quarter of the ship had already passed through the gate and it was still moving when it switched scenes. common sense would say that with its momentum, plus the planets gravity, that at least half the ship would hit the shield and pancake.

Shift Goal Posts:

more than half the length of that ISD goes through the gate structure yet isn't seen on the other side

Lie. You said you posted video of that happening. Not "eventually, with inertia, it would off-screen".

Care to address the point that the shield gate isn't pushed into the shield, so its paddles don't do their thing and make an opening, yet the rebel signal gets through?

*snip* the Mon Cal commander gets the completing transmission after the shield ripple effect has ended.

ok, so a few seconds tops.

Concession?

co-producer John Swartz's word trumps your denial. he says the blue sheen or the "aura" is the shield. point proven.

Shift Goal Posts. Misrepresentation of the producer's quote, possibly. Care to show where he says the distant horizon aura is the shield, and not just the glowy blue up-close aura is the shield? Or where he explains the early part of the space battle (part 2 video for us), when the fighter sweeps across the horizon (west to east) and the horizon aura isn't there? Then is as we follow the fighter, almost like it's an atmospheric effect? Because that's what I've been talking about for, well, since I brought "horizon aura" up: not a reliable indicator of the shield.

I revise my hypothesis and incorporate new data and reevaluate original data in this adjustment.

if you say so. I just go with what I see on screen and with the novels that isn't contradicted by canon.

Concession? Strawman, definitely. When I said the same last week (except the novels part), you could not deny it fast enough.

99% of your arguments have been ridiculing me.

Strawman, definitely. But you're worth it, baby!

the only one picking fights over word choices is YOU.

Your word choice. I already backed away from your word "speculation", and corrected my position two days ago. And it didn't cost me anything to admit that mistake. Huh. Maybe a lesson for others to consider....

you outright deny on screen evidence.

Strawman, definitely.

you mean it fits off of what you read on wookiepedia

Lie. Nowhere am I sourcing Wookiepedia, in this bit. Your bias is showing, kitten!

we see the shield after the gate is destroyed.

We don't "see the shield still up", we see a ripple effect as the DS goes into the shield gate structure and that's the last of the shield we see close-up. We DON'T see the aura in front of the DS as it rises over the eastern horizon. We DO see the aura on the western horizon when the rebel ships start zipping off. As I already explained to you: the horizon aura is not a reliable indicator of the shield being up. Odd, too, in that this dovetails with your position about inconsistency. It's good enough for you, but not good enough for me, kitten?

[Khaat]

As much fun as the quote-spaghetti is as a technical exercise, just restate your point in something short and we can work from there?

[texanmarauder]

Lie. Nowhere am I sourcing Wookiepedia, in this bit. Your bias is showing, kitten!

what do you think the star wars wiki is genius? you yourself used that. I assume by "in this bit" you are referring to this debate. and on a side note, not all of the info in that article was accurate.

Clearly, your position is that in the cinematic version only one SD hits the shield gate! <- SAD FACE! immediately following an identified novelization quote. Looks to us on the outside that you're confused at this point. And we were all here when you learned about novel canon status, kitten. Were you paying attention?

in the cinematic version, only one ISD DOES hit the gate. do you have a point here? the only one that looks confused is you. you didn't actually answer anything. what does it matter if it followed a novelization quote? the movie directly contradicted that quote making it unusable. you love to write volumes but say nothing. and obviously I was paying attention since I just pointed out a contradiction between the movie and the novel. duh.

I would have to lose over 50 IQ points to really know for sure, but you seem to think that means "I think the novelization is how it works, even though the movie is different".

I have already answered this.

Care to address the point that the shield gate isn't pushed into the shield, so its paddles don't do their thing and make an opening, yet the rebel signal gets through?

care to address the point that you cant make up your mind if the SFX are consistent or not? or that you haven't proven any of your claims on the alderaan shield? you seemed to reply(?) to everything in my last post but those. and according to rook, they had to take down the shield gate, not the shield itself. he specifically says "shield gate" not just the shield. so knowing that, along with what the co-producer said (which I'm sure you will create a reason to disregard) its the gate that is stopping the signal, not just the shield. destroy the gate, no more signal blocking.

Lie. You said you posted video of that happening. Not "eventually, with inertia, it would off-screen".

I already explained my position on that.

[Khaat]

Lie. Nowhere am I sourcing Wookiepedia, in this bit. Your bias is showing, kitten!

what do you think the star wars wiki is genius? you yourself used that. I assume by "in this bit" you are referring to this debate. and on a side note, not all of the info in that article was accurate.

No, "this bit" is this specific matter you accused me of sourcing from the wiki. All my listed observations for "this bit" are from online videos of the Battle of Scarif. (When I mean "this thread" in its entirety, I will write "this thread".) Were did I quote Wookieepedia for my there/not there line of reasoning? Nowhere. But Wait! Back here I brought up a story summary from the wiki! Then immediately following, was this exchange:

*snip* so wookiepedia isn't 100% accurate.

I recognize this

Huh, looks like I already allowed that the wiki wasn't a reliable source. Nice Strawman!

you mean it fits off of what you read on wookiepedia, who have already proven to not be accurate on certain elements. plus, I already stated that it was inconsistent.

Which is code for "your conclusion and reasoning violates my prejudice! Let me set up this Strawman about the wiki again! Vanquished the Strawman!"

you said that if that was my point then you couldn't agree.

Lie:

If your point is:

nobody ever accused star wars of being consistent.

I can't even agree with that point.

I had originally written something about absolutes like "nobody" and "ever" make it difficult to prove or disprove (which would fall to you, since it was your exceptional claim), but that's something for a remedial debate class. I'm not going to walk you through that...

Clearly, your position is that in the cinematic version only one SD hits the shield gate! <- SAD FACE! immediately following an identified novelization quote. Looks to us on the outside that you're confused at this point.

in the cinematic version, only one ISD DOES hit the gate. do you have a point here? the only one that looks confused is you.

you didn't actually answer anything.

You didn't actually ask anything: In response to a source identified as coming from the novelization (to establish that yes, the novelization gate makes more sense - purely an academic observation), you responded with the "SEARING REVELATION!!one!1! that it was not the cinematic version of events!" You look confused, since that's all you made REALLY IMPORTANT in your response. When this error in your fit is pointed out, you shift to "but novelization<cinematic!" (that you had just learned) which noone had misunderstood, nor confused. "SMOKEBOMB!"

I have already answered this.

All you have done is prove you didn't understand what you were reading, or the follow-up explanation.

care to address the point that you cant make up your mind if the SFX are consistent or not?

Well, I'd love to give you stills captured from the videos we have, but the string of time-stamps I already provided have already shown "no aura/aura" for the shield in the early stages of the battle, and the middle, and the end (like when the DS arrives and there isn't an aura on the horizon in front of it.) Moreso, I provided my conclusion that this indicates that the horizon aura is not a reliable indicator of the shield. <--This is the part you don't understand and means "the SFX do not reliably show us horizon aura=shield". I may be once again presuming your level of comprehension is sufficient, but I've very specifically said the SFX are inconsistent regarding the horizon aura.

I can see that the nose of the SD is missing, that isn't in dispute. I had Post-Its on both sides of the wedge to work out where the missing nose should have been, just to get "8mm missing" estimate (before I had a 'duh!' moment and just measured it before it went into the gate.) I even called it out as missing when I provided the measurments. You claimed more was missing than has reached the shield gate structure at the last frame of the video of that collision: that makes you a liar.

Since, y'know, he was involved in the finished product that has the inconsistent horizon aura issues....

Misrepresentation of the producer's quote, possibly.

You buzzed right past this. I can only write it, it's up to you to read the words and hopefully understand them. I would like to amend my previous statement, though: the producer's quote is an oversimplification, in a pre-release interview. Disregard? No. Qualify? Yes, in light of his work containing there/not there horizon auras.

[texanmarauder]

sorry, you put so much ridicule in the posts that I do tend to ignore them. ridiculing somebody that much, while it may be allowed by forum standards, just makes you that much bigger of an asshole and a hell of a lot harder for anybody to take you seriously or pay attention to you.

just restate your point in something short and we can work from there?

my whole point from the start was that you cant prove that alderaan had a shield. you made that claim when you included it in that little list of planets that had one. if you had said it was only speculation from the beginning, I wouldn't have taken issue with it. but your "proof" is nothing more than your opinion based on your interpretation of what you saw in a few frames of the original version of the movie. have we ever seen a superlaser hit a planetary shield before R1? no. (I say R1 because its not confirmed that the shield was down when the DS fired) had we ever seen a superlaser before? no. then you have no basis for comparison to "test" anything. you based your opinion on the turbolaser/shield interactions between the devastator and tantive iv. that's not even close to the same as a planet busting superlaser/planetary shield interaction. that's like the difference between a .22 and a tomahawk missile. and FYI, I have never seen a turbolaser react to a deflector shield like your alderaan pics. its always been a burst on impact with the shields, not encompassing the ship and shields all. I pointed out that the you used the original version, which is no longer the canon version (before I wasn't sure if it was the 2004 dvd or the 2011 blu ray versions, but every article I have read on it confirms the 2011 blu ray version being the canon version as it is the most recent incarnation) to which you replied with a Wikipedia page giving the original release date and saying that "unca lucas doesn't make the rules anymore" or something like that. the problem is that the holocron, which was used until 2014, gave the 2011 blue ray version the official canon status. Disney didn't change that. if they had, we would have known about it. so your original "conclusion", "speculation", or whatever word you decide to create a new definition for, no longer applies. hell, since lucas retains the distribution license for the unaltered original edition of ANH, it cant even be sold until 2020 or until lucas decides to. not short, but oh well.