How did the AT AT's breach the shield

[Eternal_Freedom]

On shield interaction on the Mon Cals at least the Liberty has 2 explotions, 1 when the superlaser hits that looks more like a glow and another a split second later that takes out the whole ship, I suspect that the first "explotion" was either the shield interaction or was hiding it from view.

And as for the second ship we see get insta-splatted, we view it from in front of the ship and the superlaser hits the ship's aft, so we wouldn't see the interaction in that case anyway.

[RogueIce]

Why does it even matter if Alderaan had a shield?

I was tempted to say "because vs. debate bullshit" but...I'm not even sure it matters? IIRC back in the day, people who rejected the EU would quibble over this to try and say that SW didn't have full planet encompassing shields because reasons, but now between TFA and R1 that has been definitively put to rest.

So what's even the point to denying Alderaan had a shield, aside from sheer disagreeableness? Well, maybe some kind of 'rargh biggatons!' thing. Like, in theory the Death Star would have had to pump out more than those 1E38 joules or whatever the magic number was, because it had to punch through the shield. Also I guess a "feat" for the shields to have resisted that amount of energy at all?

As far as DS firepower goes though, these days AFAIK it's less of a big deal thanks to the well established space magic Kyber crystals amplyfing the shot because somehow that's a thing they do, so you can't scale down directly. But IIRC Dr. Saxton didn't use that to come up with the infamous AOTC ICS 200GT number anyway, so...who cares? (not saying 200GT is still canon, but in theory if you accept his methodology those numbers "still exist" even if never directly stated in a canon source)

IDK maybe he just really, really cares at the thought of a Star Wars shield of any type holding out against a minimum 1E38 joule blast, no matter how briefly it may have been?

[Galvatron]

That's what I thought. Thanks, Rouge.

[Imperial528]

Since you mention the kyber crystals, here's a thought:

Presumably, with the destruction of the first Death Star, the vast majority of these crystals procured by the Empire were destroyed as well.

So did they find another source for the second Death Star, or find a way to power it conventionally? If the latter, that may be justification for the larger size of it.

Oh, and as far as the biggatons go, while I'm not sure of the book's canon status, the TFA ICS states that some First Order vessels have their weapons enhanced using kyber crystals as well, especially those belonging to units or commanders of high prestige or importance.

[Galvatron]

I don't care about biggatons or versus bullshit. All I know is that the Hoth shield was powerful enough to "deflect any bombardment" from Vader's fleet, which is what I've always based my assertions on when I've said that the Death Star was built to overwhelm such planetary defenses.

[JI_Joe84]

Since you mention the kyber crystals, here's a thought:

Presumably, with the destruction of the first Death Star, the vast majority of these crystals procured by the Empire were destroyed as well.

So did they find another source for the second Death Star, or find a way to power it conventionally? If the latter, that may be justification for the larger size of it.

Oh, and as far as the biggatons go, while I'm not sure of the book's canon status, the TFA ICS states that some First Order vessels have their weapons enhanced using kyber crystals as well, especially those belonging to units or commanders of high prestige or importance.

At the beginning of R1 we see the empire pulling Kyber Krystal's out of Jedha and a short while later we see Tarkin standing on a bridge gawking at his new command as the super laser was being installed, in one big module too.
Either the space of time between the two scenes was long enough to refine and install the Krystal's or they were taking all the Krystal's they could get their hands on.
The latter is what I favor as it seems they planned a weapon field test before setting Tarkin loose on the Galaxy.
Also unless the empire could build thing's, nevermind one off design's, as big as the death Stars regularly I doubt the second death star was started after the first was destroyed. It makes sense they would want all the Kyber Krystal's if they had other projects for them to be used in.

[texanmarauder]

well, I'm not gonna quibble over the supposed planetary shield for alderaan. agree to disagree on that one. on to another point about kyber crystals, AFAIK its never outright stated, but isnt there a theory that turned Illum into starkiller base? Illum was an ice planet located in the unknown regions that was full of kyber crystals.

[Sea Skimmer]

At the beginning of R1 we see the empire pulling Kyber Krystal's out of Jedha and a short while later we see Tarkin standing on a bridge gawking at his new command as the super laser was being installed, in one big module too.
Either the space of time between the two scenes was long enough to refine and install the Krystal's or they were taking all the Krystal's they could get their hands on.
The latter is what I favor as it seems they planned a weapon field test before setting Tarkin loose on the Galaxy.
Also unless the empire could build thing's, nevermind one off design's, as big as the death Stars regularly I doubt the second death star was started after the first was destroyed. It makes sense they would want all the Kyber Krystal's if they had other projects for them to be used in.

They may have simply wanted to collect all other krystals so that nobody else could use them to build an anti death star gun, which logically could be a whole lot smaller then the Death Star itself. All the more so if it was engineered to only withstand one or two full power shots, all it would need to do the job in a coup attempt or similar event.

[Khaat]

well, I'm not gonna quibble over the supposed planetary shield for alderaan. agree to disagree on that one.

Concession accepted. Shame, I was hoping you actually had a position and a reason for holding it....

[texanmarauder]

Concession accepted. Shame, I was hoping you actually had a position and a reason for holding it....

not arguing about something doesn't mean concession. you have an opinion based on somebody elses opinion based on the usual fanatical die hard warsie MO of "if it isn't clearly contradicted by canon then it must be true". there is no debating or arguing with somebody like that because I could tell you that water is wet and you wouldn't believe it if your opinion differs from mine based on somebody elses opinion. so why would I waste time? I don't believe that alderaan had a planetary shield. nothing that you have said has changed my mind. when ANH was written, they hadn't even come up with the concept of planetary shields yet. so its an unproven opinion created by fans long after the fact. nothing more. but you believe what you want to believe.

[Khaat]

Having no evidence to support your position does mean a concession, though. You have chosen to not supply evidence for your position, and in fact, have withdrawn from the debate (that's what a concession is).

My "opinion" is a conclusion supported by canon evidence (the film), not "someone elses' opinion" with a side of Appeal to Authority.

[texanmarauder]

Having no evidence to support your position does mean a concession, though. You have chosen to not supply evidence for your position, and in fact, have withdrawn from the debate (that's what a concession is).

My "opinion" is a conclusion supported by canon evidence (the film), not "someone elses' opinion" with a side of Appeal to Authority.

your "proof" is your opinion of the superlaser hitting alderaan based off a vague line in the novel years after the fact and the "common sense crap". as for canon, that has changed over the years to the point where your conclusion isnt even valid anymore. and common sense and star wars don't even go in the same sentence. common sense says that something hot enough to melt metal(lightsaber) is going to burn to death whoever is holding it. common sense says that if you walk into a sub zero space vacuum with only a breathing mask, you are still going to suffer the effects of vacuum exposure. common sense also says that if you are trying to take down a huge walking tank that can only fire forward, you don't fly right at it from the front. I could go on all day but even you can see the point I am trying to make. and by the way, appeal to authority relies on "expert opinion" with emphasis on opinion. so by your own admission, your evidence is only unsubstantiated opinion. so as I said before, its not worth arguing with somebody who counts opinion and "common sense" as canon proof.

[Khaat]

I was going to just let this go, but I have decided I don't want to:

not arguing about something doesn't mean concession.

This part of what you said? Yes, it does mean concession.

you have an opinion based on somebody elses opinion based on the usual fanatical die hard warsie MO of "if it isn't clearly contradicted by canon then it must be true".

Actually, I held no opinion on the Alderaan planetary shield until I chose to look into it and found evidence supporting the position was more solidly grounded in the actual film than any other position. Then later, they actually named the reason for that effect in the films as a technology they had in-universe. How meta! A fan "idea" became canon!

there is no debating or arguing with somebody like that because I could tell you that water is wet and you wouldn't believe it if your opinion differs from mine based on somebody elses opinion.

Actually, what you've done is told me "water is one of the immutable five fundimental elements" and I have shown you an example of electrolysis, where water is turned into two kinds of air, and I explain atomic and molecular theory. You choose to disbelieve your own eyes and claim I am a witch Warsie.

so why would I waste time?

Excellent question! I'm betting you don't have a logical answer for why you have taken the position to do just that, either!

I don't believe that alderaan had a planetary shield. nothing that you have said has changed my mind.

Because you hold your post most valiantly, and don't want to explain why you hold that post. But when you say you don't want to explain it, you want a pass. "Why would I ever explain why I wear a little pink dress to the supermarket? They are fools for ridiculing me! Contemptible fools, I say! MUAHAHAHAHA!" (<- seriously, this is where you are right now )

when ANH was written, they hadn't even come up with the concept of planetary shields yet. so its an unproven opinion created by fans long after the fact. nothing more. but you believe what you want to believe.

We didn't get "what was originally written", or Luke Starkiller (who would have borne a striking resemblance to George Lucas himself) would have been fighting stormtroopers with laser-swords instead of blasters, and driving hot-rod spaceships to get the girl, after slaying the space-dragon who killed his father. What we have instead is a film that has visual evidence of something that fits other examples of that thing elsewhere in the "universe" that was created.


But, hey, cute dress!

[Khaat]

your "proof" is your opinion of the superlaser hitting alderaan based off a vague line in the novel years after the fact and the "common sense crap".

Yeah, read the thread again: that wasn't me (even though, yes, the novelizations so long as they don't contradict the movies are cannon). My proof has all the pretty pictures of Alderaan getting blown-up.

so as I said before, its not worth arguing with somebody who counts opinion and "common sense" as canon proof.

Is English your first language? I think you are having some 'language issues' again. Or maybe you're just an idiot with 3rd grade reading comprehension and a short attention span. When I say "no longer canon means only that, not 'denied by canon sources'", it doesn't mean what you think it means.

[JI_Joe84]

At the beginning of R1 we see the empire pulling Kyber Krystal's out of Jedha and a short while later we see Tarkin standing on a bridge gawking at his new command as the super laser was being installed, in one big module too.
Either the space of time between the two scenes was long enough to refine and install the Krystal's or they were taking all the Krystal's they could get their hands on.
The latter is what I favor as it seems they planned a weapon field test before setting Tarkin loose on the Galaxy.
Also unless the empire could build thing's, nevermind one off design's, as big as the death Stars regularly I doubt the second death star was started after the first was destroyed. It makes sense they would want all the Kyber Krystal's if they had other projects for them to be used in.

They may have simply wanted to collect all other krystals so that nobody else could use them to build an anti death star gun, which logically could be a whole lot smaller then the Death Star itself. All the more so if it was engineered to only withstand one or two full power shots, all it would need to do the job in a coup attempt or similar event.

This stand's to reason although knowing palpy why would he knowingly let such a thing get built and have no recourse should Tarkin decide to give him self a promotion?
Also what if the first attempt didn't work as in sabotage, wouldn't it be nice to have a second secret one you could whip out like supprise! Now you're gonna get it!

[texanmarauder]

Yeah, read the thread again: that wasn't me (even though, yes, the novelizations so long as they don't contradict the movies are cannon). My proof has all the pretty pictures of Alderaan getting blown-up.

so have basically said that your whole argument is based on your opinion of the effects of the superlaser on alderaan. how does that make your opinion more or less valid than mine? by the way, the pictures that you used as examples aren't even the current version of canon. that's from the original movie footage. the current version is the 2011 blu ray version which is entirely different and nullifies your argument. plus, the movie makes no mention whatsoever of a planetary shield, and the novel only contains a vague reference to a defense system. at that point, the only defense systems we see are blasters and turbolasers except for deflector shields on ships. so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that there was a planetary shield just based on visuals. especially when the visuals that you used are no longer current or canon.

There is canon, and there is "it certainly makes sense and isn't contradicted by canon", so I'll favor common sense over stupid, pretty much everywhere. Yes, I have been burned more than once by this position.

yes, it was you. you wrote that.

We didn't get "what was originally written", or Luke Starkiller (who would have borne a striking resemblance to George Lucas himself) would have been fighting stormtroopers with laser-swords instead of blasters, and driving hot-rod spaceships to get the girl, after slaying the space-dragon who killed his father. What we have instead is a film that has visual evidence of something that fits other examples of that thing elsewhere in the "universe" that was created.

I didn't say what was originally written. I said written. ill thank you not to put words in my mouth.

Yeah, you're in the wrong place. Until Disney decides to change the canon, we aren't going to find more evidence here. What we have on the screen is what we have to work with, and that supports planetary shield over Alderaan (in the absence of a canon source saying, "Alderaan had no planetary shield").

by that logic I could say pretty much anything and as long as its not stated on screen that it didn't happen/exist then it did happen/exist. false logic, to be sure. not to mention argument from incredulity, agument from ignorance, shifting burden of proof, cherry picking, inductive fallacy, hasty generalizations, and wishful thinking.

[NeoGoomba]

This stand's to reason although knowing palpy why would he knowingly let such a thing get built and have no recourse should Tarkin decide to give him self a promotion?
Also what if the first attempt didn't work as in sabotage, wouldn't it be nice to have a second secret one you could whip out like supprise! Now you're gonna get it!

Well Vader's presence on the Death Star was probably one level of deterrent against Tarkin or another senior officer taking the Death Star to carve out their own private fiefdom. I wouldn't be surprised if a Hand or two, plus a good number of ISB agents, weren't sprinkled in the crew as another contingency.

[Khaat]

so have basically said that your whole argument is based on your opinion of the effects of the superlaser on alderaan. how does that make your opinion more or less valid than mine?

a) it's in the movie (a canon source)
b) analysis of those images are analogous to shield/weapon exchanges we have seen by this point in the movie
c) we don't require dialog to establish a thing is on-screen if it's shown (unless you're blind and need that "descriptive services for the blind" audio track - seriously, those folks must miss so much of a visual medium like film!)
d) you still haven't made a point yet (other than "not a shield" - not entirely accurate, you did say "atmospheric ionization" once, but never again ), or laid out any evidence for your position (that means "say why you think that")

by the way, the pictures that you used as examples aren't even the current version of canon. that's from the original movie footage. the current version is the 2011 blu ray version which is entirely different and nullifies your argument.

"Nullifies my argument" (there isn't a font for "read in a goofy voice") because
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

Post-2014, the official Star Wars canon consists of the eight released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film, the television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, multiple novels and comics, and any other material released after April 25, 2014, unless otherwise stated.
[snip]
List of Star Wars canon works
Release date....Title.......Type of media
May 1977........Star Wars..Film

Huh. Nothing in there about "Special Edition only", no "Blu-ray version FX only". I'm going to have to say the official word about what canon is nullifies your argument cherry-picking.

plus, the movie makes no mention whatsoever of a planetary shield, and the novel only contains a vague reference to a defense system. at that point, the only defense systems we see are blasters and turbolasers except for deflector shields on ships. so there is no reason whatsoever to assume that there was a planetary shield just based on visuals. especially when the visuals that you used are no longer* current or canon.

*fixed it for you! Yeah, going to have to ask you to stop the Wall of Ignorance. Again. Did Han Solo have hair? No one said he did. Or Leia: did anyone comment on what she was wearing? No? Scandalous! Nude the whole time!

There is canon, and there is "it certainly makes sense and isn't contradicted by canon", so I'll favor common sense over stupid, pretty much everywhere. Yes, I have been burned more than once by this position.

yes, it was you. you wrote that.

Yeah, you're having a disconnect again: what I said does NOT mean "it's canon even though it isn't canon because!" I've tried to read it in as many ways as I can, and I still don't see where you're getting that message:

its not worth arguing with somebody who counts opinion and "common sense" as canon proof.

Seriously, maybe you have a learning disability? I'd be happy to recognize that: not judging. Otherwise, I would expect you not to be stupid, but it isn't playing out that way. Me: burned again.

... and I'm still waiting for you to either walk away (like you said you would be stupid NOT to), or provide your theory for what we see, and how any evidence (at all!) that you would provide fits your conclusion better than mine.

I didn't say what was originally written. I said written. ill thank you not to put words in my mouth.

No, when I quote you, you'll know it: I tutored you on the quote boxes, remember? But "the story FX has changed since 1977" doesn't serve you.

...What we have on the screen is what we have to work with, and that supports planetary shield over Alderaan (in the absence of a canon source saying, "Alderaan had no planetary shield").

by that logic I could say pretty much anything and as long as its not stated on screen that it didn't happen/exist then it did happen/exist.

Well, you could say anything. You can!
TRY. IT.
In fact, considering you've spent two pages saying nothing, it might be a good idea to start. Then comes the fun part: provide evidence to support what you say. I have, you haven't. <-- SAD FACE!

[texanmarauder]

if you are done being insulting.......

a) it's in the movie (a canon source)

which version? lucas himself has stated that the 2004 special edition dvd versions are the final and correct version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm1zaTUnoTE there is a 2011 blu ray version with a few minor differences and additional extras.

b) analysis of those images are analogous to shield/weapon exchanges we have seen by this point in the movie

as I said before, the images you used have been superseded in canon and are no longer valid. the current version is the 2004 special edition, as stated by lucas himself, which is the same edition used in the 2011 blu ray. the blu ray edition has more extra material I believe. plus, you are assuming that the superlaser operates on the same principle as a run of the mill turbolaser. it doesn't. that has been proven time and time again. so you are seeing a superlaser hit a planet for the first time. how do you know it reacts the same as a turbolaser hitting shields? you don't. you have nothing to reference it against. plus, a low power shot completely went through the shield on scarif with no interaction at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFOk_yAvbOs so why would a full power shot interact with a supposed shield on alderaan? assuming that the supposed shield is the defense system on par, as stated by vader in the novel, with the shield on scarif?

c) we don't require dialog to establish a thing is on-screen if it's shown (unless you're blind and need that "descriptive services for the blind" audio track - seriously, those folks must miss so much of a visual medium like film!)

aside from the fact that your whole argument is based on interpretation of a single event, backed up by a vague and in no way explicit statement in the novel, NOT the film, I would say that in this case it DOES require some kind of dialog. as I said before, at that point planetary shields didn't even exist. they didn't exist until ROTJ.

d) you still haven't made a point yet (other than "not a shield" - not entirely accurate, you did say "atmospheric ionization" once, but never again ), or laid out any evidence for your position (that means "say why you think that")

my whole point was stated a while ago. that I didn't agree with stating speculation or assumption as hard evidence.

"Speculation" is developing a hypothesis, based on observation, which is then tested. Please be more specific with your language. If you mean "a baseless guess", say that. If you mean "I disagree with your evaluation of the evidence", say that.

per the oxford dictionary..... speculation: The forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. hypothesis: A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence (or in this case, NO evidence) as a starting point for further investigation. please learn definitions before you ridicule somebody for not being specific.

"Nullifies my argument" (there isn't a font for "read in a goofy voice") because
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

again with the ridicule. ad hominem/red herring fallacies. as for your link, at the time the holocron was being used to keep up with everything. according to your link, GWL or G canon consisted of " It included Episodes I–VI (the released films at that time), and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the scripts, filmed deleted scenes, film novelizations, reference books, radio plays, and other primary sources were also G-canon when not in contradiction with the released films.[15] GWL-canon overrode the lower levels of canon when there was a contradiction. In the words of Leland Chee: "George's view of the universe is his view. He's not beholded to what's gone before."[10]" key words "released fims at that time". damned by your own link. George lucas himself stating that the DVD version is the final version and the one that he wants out there. so yes, since you based your images on the original version, which is no longer the accepted canon per lucas himself (Disney even uses the 2011 blu ray version for keeping up with legends stuff) nullified would be accurate since your argument no longer applies. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_ ... e-releases

Post-2014, the official Star Wars canon consists of the eight released Star Wars theatrical feature films, the Star Wars animated film, the television series The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels, multiple novels and comics, and any other material released after April 25, 2014, unless otherwise stated.
[snip]
List of Star Wars canon works
Release date....Title.......Type of media
May 1977........Star Wars..Film

again, key word "released". the latest release has always been the canon version. again, even wookieepedia considers the latest version to be the canon version. all the new canon did was compress G and T canon and make them "cinematic canon" or the "immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align".

No, when I quote you, you'll know it: I tutored you on the quote boxes, remember? But "the story FX has changed since 1977" doesn't serve you.

you did quote me. and somehow the phrase"what was written" became "what was originally written". two entirely different things. and actually it does serve me. the holocron proved that, followed by Disney. and as I said before, the current version that is considered canon is the last version released, which would be the 2004 or 2011 versions. take your pick. either way, the current canon is NOT the 1977 version. it hasn't been for over 2 decades at least.

Then comes the fun part: provide evidence to support what you say. I have, you haven't. <-- SAD FACE!

your evidence is based on visuals from the original version that canonically does not exist anymore and a vague statement from the novel that isn't even in the film. you literally have nothing at this point. most of what you have been posting has just been different versions of sarcasm and ridiculing me for not seeing things your way. not cool.

[Khaat]

1) Unca George doesn't say what's canon anymore (Disney does), and if the canon policy doesn't even mention the special edition, remastered version, etc, etc. If Unca George thinks the original version will "be gone in 100 years", that's his problem: they happened, people saw them, and he doesn't get to say what is or isn't canon anymore. I'm just fine with "eight released Star Wars theatrical feature films" including the images used. If you have a Disney Star Wars canon policy source that outright disclaims the original theatrical release, bring it. Lucas saying so doesn't fly.

2) We weren't shown the interaction on Scarif's shield, I already addressed the editing of this scene (back on page 2?): beam passes by ships above shield in orbit/cut/beam slices through top of facility tower under shield - we aren't shown where the beam interacts with the shield at all. Also: what the fuck does this have to do with Alderaan?

3) A "single event" is grounds for that thing happening, enough to outright dismiss a claim of "never happened!"

4) The images are firm evidence, an event that happened. The conclusion drawn from them is not "without firm evidence". So, sure, "speculation" (you introduced the term) isn't the right term for my position, since I'm using evidence as a foundation for my position.

5) Ad hominem is "your idea is smelly, because you're smelly!" Ridicule is fine here: read the standards. Since I provided a definition of Disney Star Wars canon (that did not disclaim the original theatrical release of 1977), I'm not attempting to undermine any valid argument by mocking you with "goofy voice" - especially since the manner in which I countered your position is right there. Metaphor: as long as there's cake, the frosting is irrelevant. And again: Lucas doesn't define Star Wars canon anymore, so vindicated by my own link.

6) This is a quote:

you did quote me

This isn't:
"I'm going to waffle back and forth on whether the original 1977 release (before explicit mention of planetary shields, so I guess they didn't exist yet in-universe) is going to be the source of my counter-argument or the later, revised versions (released after planetary shields are a thing and thus supporting your position, actually): I'm eating my cake and still having it."
There are very particular rules about honesty in debate here, and the second doesn't violate it, since it is an interpretation of your blatherings. Altering the first (without calling it out) would be a violation of the honesty standards.

You aren't arguing the same issue I am:
- I am arguing for film evidence of a shield on Alderaan. I brought pictures.
- You are arguing against... well, you seem to think I said "my opinion is canon". Who are we kidding: you outright said that:
[quote="texanmarauder']its not worth arguing with somebody who counts opinion and "common sense" as canon proof.[/quote]
You aren't arguing against my conclusion, you are arguing against a strawman of my attitude.

7) And, you have already conceded. For someone who was going to "let it go", "not argue anymore", thinks "it would be stupid to continue", you sure don't know how to let it go, not argue anymore, or recognize how stupid you look after saying you would be stupid to keep going.

[texanmarauder]

If you have a Disney Star Wars canon policy source that outright disclaims the original theatrical release, bring it. Lucas saying so doesn't fly.

show me where Disney says otherwise. you wont find it because they didn't change it. they didn't change the holocron levels, they just condensed it when they did away with the holocron. and a wiki listing the original release dates doesn't fly either.

We weren't shown the interaction on Scarif's shield, I already addressed the editing of this scene (back on page 2?): beam passes by ships above shield in orbit/cut/beam slices through top of facility tower under shield - we aren't shown where the beam interacts with the shield at all. Also: what the fuck does this have to do with Alderaan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFOk_yAvbOs 0:12 you can clearly see the where the beam stops. the only way for that to happen is for it to hit whatever it was aiming at. plus that beam is traveling at thousands of kps. that would mean that it went through the shield since it was fired from orbit and the end of the beam is visible for at least 2 seconds. no shield interaction at all even though the beam had to have passed through the shield while on screen in that shot. so if a low power shot doesn't interact at all with the shield, then why would a full power shot do what you say it did to alderaan? that's two conflicting scenarios.

A "single event" is grounds for that thing happening, enough to outright dismiss a claim of "never happened!"

more like your interpretation of said event. taking the idea of a planetary shield, info that came almost a decade after the fact, and trying to impose it on your interpretation of something doesn't make it proof. plus, see my R1 argument.

The images are firm evidence, an event that happened. The conclusion drawn from them is not "without firm evidence". So, sure, "speculation" (you introduced the term) isn't the right term for my position, since I'm using evidence as a foundation for my position.

firm evidence my ass. you are speculating as to what caused the, for lack of a better term, "splash effect" of the superlaser hitting alderaan. you have no basis for comparison until R1 and you have only a single vague as fuck, cherry picked, and out of context line from the novel to justify your speculations. R1 pretty much debunks your little theory since a low power shot went right through the shield with no effects shown, therefore logically a full power shot would have no shown effects either.

Ad hominem is "your idea is smelly, because you're smelly!" Ridicule is fine here: read the standards.

so its ok to be an asshole to people. got it.

when ANH was written, they hadn't even come up with the concept of planetary shields yet.

you replied with this:

We didn't get "what was originally written"

those are two separate statements. and yes, you were quoting me when you said it, even if you didn't use the quote system. when did I say originally written? you inserted that yourself. so yes, that is dishonesty. call a spade a spade. you have already been an asshole in this debate. dishonesty isn't a far stretch.

"I'm going to waffle back and forth on whether the original 1977 release (before explicit mention of planetary shields, so I guess they didn't exist yet in-universe) is going to be the source of my counter-argument or the later, revised versions (released after planetary shields are a thing and thus supporting your position, actually): I'm eating my cake and still having it."
There are very particular rules about honesty in debate here, and the second doesn't violate it, since it is an interpretation of your blatherings. Altering the first (without calling it out) would be a violation of the honesty standards.

either one supports me. the planetary shield didn't exist at the time the movie was first released. it didn't even exist until ROTJ (not counting the dome shield in ESB as it doesn't even cover the whole planet ). so there was no reason to even think that alderaan had a planetary shield before then. the revised versions of the same film changed the destruction of alderaan completely so that the effect you based your argument on didn't exist anymore. either way, you have no reason to think that alderaan had a shield. plus, again, R1 debunks the shield effect from the superlaser. good cake!

You aren't arguing the same issue I am:- I am arguing for film evidence of a shield on Alderaan. I brought pictures.

you forgot that without that vague as hell line in the novel, that isn't even in the movie, those pictures wouldn't mean jack shit. by the way, the follow up comment by tarkin kind of puts paid to the whole "defenses = shield" theory. "Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see." munitions, AKA weapons, after leia's claim that they had no weapons (or standing armies in the novel). that would argue again that defenses meant weapons of some sort, not a planetary shield. another bit of canon evidence supporting weapons on alderaan instead of shields would be the fact that the alliance was supplied 3 hammer head corvettes from bail organa. plus, the alliance was created and supported by bail organa with alderaan being its main supplier of munitions.

You are arguing against... well, you seem to think I said "my opinion is canon". Who are we kidding: you outright said that

because you said:

There is canon, and there is "it certainly makes sense and isn't contradicted by canon", so I'll favor common sense over stupid, pretty much everywhere. Yes, I have been burned more than once by this position.

the only way I can take that is that you favor common sense over canon. your words.

And, you have already conceded. For someone who was going to "let it go", "not argue anymore", thinks "it would be stupid to continue", you sure don't know how to let it go, not argue anymore, or recognize how stupid you look after saying you would be stupid to keep going.

being new to the forum, I wasn't looking to make enemies or insult people. I was trying to be polite. as you have seen I could argue against it all day.

[Khaat]

the only way I can take that is that you favor common sense over canon. your words.

So now you've shifted from thinking that I think conclusions drawn from the film evidence and canon are the same to thinking that I think my conclusions are better than canon?

I apologize for your critically limited understanding. If you had a more sophisticated grasp of the English language, you would understand that

There is canon, and there is "it certainly makes sense and isn't contradicted by canon", so I'll favor common sense over stupid, pretty much everywhere.

doesn't mean what you think it means. I'll break it down:
1) there is canon
2) there is "makes sense, and in the absence of canon sources saying 'no' to it, I'm good with that."

While the two are related, there is a hierarchical order to it you don't seem to understand, to the point that you have it backwards, by your latest definition.

I was trying to be polite. as you have seen I could argue against it all day.

No, it makes you a liar. Polite would have been to hold your tongue about me dropping Alderaan into a list of planetary shields in the films. Polite would have been to stop posting about the imagined slight you suffered. Polite would have been to recognize that "I'm not going to continue" is a concession and dropping it. A concession costs you nothing, not even pride.

Regarding Rogue One, the shield had collapsed when the Death Star fired on Scarif: the hammerhead had pushed the Star Destroyer into the shield gate and collapsed the shield, or the transmission would have never reached the Rebel fleet. Golly, I wonder if that would be a reason for why we never saw a shield interaction?
http://transcripts.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue ... Wars_Story (Sadly, no full script is available at IMSDb, yet.)

COMPUTER: Antenna alignment. Ready to transmit.
KRENNIC: Who are you?
JYN ERSO: You know who I am. I'm Jyn Erso. Daughter of Galen and Lyra. You've lost.
KRENNIC: Oh, I have, have I?
JYN ERSO: My father's revenge. He built a flaw in the Death Star. He put a fuse in the middle of your machine and I've just told the entire galaxy how to light it.
KRENNIC: The shield is up, your signal will never reach the rebel base. All you ships in here will be destroyed. I lose nothing but time. YOU on the other hand die with the Rebellion.

COMPUTER: Transmitting. Transmitting.

LIEUTENANT: Admiral, receiving transmission from Scarif.

(Not a fan of the transcription errors, but "eh".)
So I have to take it you would believe Krennic when he says the shield is still up (since it is "someone saying something"), yet the transmission reaches the rebel fleet, before the Death Star arrives. Or we could deduce that Krennic does not have real-time tactical information about what has happened in orbit and is just wrong.
How about this:

Noticing the disabled capital ship, Admiral Raddus contacted a Hammerhead corvette and explained his plan to break open the shield.[1]

The corvette he had chosen to carry out his plan was the Lightmaker, commanded by Kado Oquoné. The ship had earlier sustained heavy damage and was covering the line of retreat. Having evacuated all non-essential personnel, leaving a skeleton crew behind including Oquoné himself[5], the corvette rammed the disabled Destroyer and activated its sublight engines, sending it on a collision course for the other one. Admiral Gorin, seeing the incoming hazard, ordered full reverse thrust to avoid the collision, but it was too late. As the two Star Destroyers collided, they broke apart and fell towards Scarif, crashing into the orbital docking station that controlled the deflector shield, disabling it. With the shield down, Erso and Andor were able to successfully transmit the Death Star plans to the Alliance flagship above Scarif.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Scarif Not my usual go-to source, but I've only seen Rogue One once, and online clips don't always have the best resolution.

[seanrobertson]

Texan,

You're arguing with several people in separate threads as-is, so I'm not going to dogpile you. However, no one has addressed the following point, and since you've mentioned it at least twice, you seem to think it is especially germane to the Alderman shield question:

either one supports me. the planetary shield didn't exist at the time the movie was first released. it didn't even exist until ROTJ (not counting the dome shield in ESB as it doesn't even cover the whole planet ). so there was no reason to even think that alderaan had a planetary shield before then. the revised versions of the same film changed the destruction of alderaan completely so that the effect you based your argument on didn't exist anymore. either way, you have no reason to think that alderaan had a shield. plus, again, R1 debunks the shield effect from the superlaser. good cake!

... But to be frank, I gotta ask, so what? In universe, planetary shields existef prior to Alderaan's destruction. It doesn't matter if, in 1977, Lucas actually intended that such shields were viable; that's no better than claiming there were no Sith, ion weapons, Lambda shuttles, U-Wings, heavy walkers, any familial connection between Vader and Luke, et al. infinitum simply because those things were conceptualized at later dates. We take the canon as a whole, and if nothing else, the Scarif shield proves that planet-scale shields did exist circa ANH.

Does that mean Alderaan had them? In and of itself, no. And it could very well be that, even if it did have a massive shield, it was, as you noted, as potentially transparent to a DS blast as Scarif's seemed to be.

I don't have a definite stance on the issue, but I will say this: an Alderaan shield is, effective or no, NOT out of the realm of possibility. The novelization quote leads me to believe it is *more* likely than not ...

The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should think that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough.

... for the simple reason that, in this context, the "demonstration" in question involved violently blowing up an entire planet -- not the Death Star shrugging off the planet's "best defense is a good offense" weaponry you're suggesting. (Alderaan is the main weapons supplier for the Rebellion? I'd like a source for that...a handful of corvettes hardly makes them Space Boeing .)

Again, I am NOT claiming there had to have been a shield; I'm trying to explain why I find lacking some of the reasons you insist that it could not exist.

BTW, the novelization doesn't post-date the film. It was released in 1976.

being new to the forum, I wasn't looking to make enemies or insult people. I was trying to be polite. as you have seen I could argue against it all day.

I can appreciate that, but I would humbly suggest you read a bit more and familiarize yourself with the board's spirit. Aside from the political forum, the forums here are TAME compared to the old days; still, for the uninitiated, Obi-Wan put it well: "Watch your step. This place can get a little rough."

[seanrobertson]

Khatt,

Good point.

I've rewatched my BR a few times, and it does *look like* the shield is up when the DS creams Scarif. Brian thought so, too. But he and I could easily be wrong on that count

[texanmarauder]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Scarif Not my usual go-to source, but I've only seen Rogue One once, and online clips don't always have the best resolution

the star wars wiki, or wookiepedia, also stated that the AT-AT walkers in SWR "Zero Hour" had shield generators, based on the fact that those little thermal charges couldn't bring them down, even though this is never seen or stated in the show or had any reason to think that there was. to my knowledge, walkers have never had shields and relied on armor. so wookiepedia isn't 100% accurate. plus, wookiepedia also says that the shield was collapsed when the ISDs went kamikaze on it even though in the movie, the shield was clearly still up when admiral raddus said"Rogue One, may the Force be with you" while looking down at the perpetuating shock wave from the DS shot. that was after the ISDs took out the gate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHJHUg2SNAQ again, the shield is visible after the gate is taken out. so clearly the gate wasn't generating it and the ISDs provided enough disruption for transmission. or..........

So I have to take it you would believe Krennic when he says the shield is still up (since it is "someone saying something"), yet the transmission reaches the rebel fleet, before the Death Star arrives. Or we could deduce that Krennic does not have real-time tactical information about what has happened in orbit and is just wrong.

rook was able to contact the fleet from inside the shield well before those two ISDs took out the gate. if that could happen, then why not just transmit the data already? the master switch had already been thrown.