Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Galvatron » 2017-05-11 06:12pm

Interdictors aren't exactly big ships so I can't imagine that these mines would have to be very big either. Yes, they'd be vulnerable to attack, but that's why they should be deployed by warships that can protect them.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-11 07:03pm

Galvatron wrote:Interdictors aren't exactly big ships so I can't imagine that these mines would have to be very big either. Yes, they'd be vulnerable to attack, but that's why they should be deployed by warships that can protect them.
Certainly, but as the book mentioned, they're not something you could use in a defensive manner, they're more like offensive minefields laid off enemy ports in the early 1900's - keep a known enemy escaping.

Although in a fun combination, the GFFA gravwell-mine used so effectively against the Vong was at the centre of a vast conventional minefield - it did not go well for the bad guys, though again that was a way of hurting/slowing/delaying retreating enemies, and it's noted that aside from the first unsuspecting fleet group, many of the Vong ships were able to fight their way out.

EDIT: As for the size of the generators, maybe it's a power thing. The bigger the generator the larger mass-shadow you generate - Interdictor cruisers were mentioned in one NJO book as producing a mass shadow the size of an average planet - presumably smaller mines would only project smaller shadows, they can pull ships out but can only cover smaller areas - hence the need to position them on known routes.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Galvatron » 2017-05-11 07:25pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:As for the size of the generators, maybe it's a power thing. The bigger the generator the larger mass-shadow you generate - Interdictor cruisers were mentioned in one NJO book as producing a mass shadow the size of an average planet - presumably smaller mines would only project smaller shadows, they can pull ships out but can only cover smaller areas - hence the need to position them on known routes.
An Executor could easily accommodate an interdictor cruiser. I see no reason why it couldn't also carry a mine or two of the same size and power capabilities.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-11 07:42pm

Galvatron wrote:
Eternal_Freedom wrote:As for the size of the generators, maybe it's a power thing. The bigger the generator the larger mass-shadow you generate - Interdictor cruisers were mentioned in one NJO book as producing a mass shadow the size of an average planet - presumably smaller mines would only project smaller shadows, they can pull ships out but can only cover smaller areas - hence the need to position them on known routes.
An Executor could easily accommodate an interdictor cruiser. I see no reason why it couldn't also carry a mine or two of the same size and power capabilities.
Yeah, but if you need a mine that size and power, and you're hoping to trap a force that you want a Dreadnought to reliably kill, and said Dreadnought can just carry an Interdictor...why not just carry an Interdictor, that can then go off and do other things afterwards, rather than a immobile mine?

Add to that that the cost is going to increase for larger mines as well - given how common place frigate-sized hulls are, and how apparently rare Interdictors are (remarked upon several times in the X-Wing books) the conclusion is that gravwell generators large enough are the expensive/rare part. At which point you've paid for the big gravwell generators - why not just pay the (relatively) small extra cost and build an Interdictor instead?
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-05-11 08:54pm

Galvatron wrote:In that case, I wonder why the Empire doesn't just equip unmanned satellites with gravity well projectors and deploy them like mines.
Hmmm... the ship that launches the mines can't be too far off. Cause if it's used in a military manner, then the enemy might just adapt and use decoys to trigger the mine. THEN the enemy's actual assets drop out of hyperspace from beyond the interdiction field range and either go in to blow the mine up or actually steal it and reverse engineer the tasty tech. Or even just go around the mine, if it's also festooned in conventional weapons systems (if that's possible, if power requirements, size, esoteric side effects and trade-offs don't prevent the interdictor from being weakly armed...).

If the Empire or whoever just leaves the mines to snag travelers, unless it's dropped on a "choke point" like a planet, I think it'll be less-useful than an Interdictor... again, people can go around the thing once its location is known. The Interdictor is useful because despite its softness... it can still finish the job AND relocate to find other targets.

Is there any indication (hur hur) on whether interdiction fields are AI/droid-friendly? What are the field's side effects? Is its application so delicate that people have to be around to push Important Buttons?
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 12:42pm

Old EU said Dac mined it's hyperspace routes heavily except for a few not known to the Empire...

I think they used a combination of interdiction mines, actual rocks, and explosive mines, so you aren't just pulled out, but you are pulled out into boom.

Also, the old X wing game had mines with blaster cannons. So your interdictor mine need not be unprotected.


---
As for the showdown, I'm unsure if the ion weapon will knock out something that big.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 01:40pm

Its a little flimsy, but I can think of at least one piece of canon evidence with regard to ion canon effectiveness- the Rebels on Hoth seemed pretty confident that their ion canon could clear a path through any opposition (said opposition included a dreadnought).
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 02:19pm

Sure, but that was just 'make them get out of the way' or 'knock them down for a very brief period where you're literally flying by at high speed.'

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 02:57pm

Q99 wrote:Sure, but that was just 'make them get out of the way' or 'knock them down for a very brief period where you're literally flying by at high speed.'
However, being temporarily disabled during a battle isn't something one will necessarily recover from. If, for example, they could drop a section of the shields, while also suppressing enough of the heavy weapons fire to keep from getting blown away while their own guns and fighters take advantage of that gap in the shields...
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 03:59pm

The Romulan Republic wrote: However, being temporarily disabled during a battle isn't something one will necessarily recover from. If, for example, they could drop a section of the shields, while also suppressing enough of the heavy weapons fire to keep from getting blown away while their own guns and fighters take advantage of that gap in the shields...
True, the question is does it disable a big enough section? Especially when the target has way more fighters and a lot more hull.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-13 05:04pm

IIRC, no one on Hoth comments on the Executor being there, it's "a fleet of Star Destroyers."

One can surmise that the reason the Rebels chose the escape routes that they did (past the ISD's that were hit and disabled because that was easier/more effective than firing on Executor. Firing on the command ship when you have the option strikes me as being the most sensible option - unless for some reason it won't work.

Add to that the fact that (in Legends canon at least) that single Ion Cannon was powered by the reactor from a Star Battlecruiser, explaining why it so easily disabled ISD's - it may not (indeed, probably not) have been effective against a Dreadnought.

Logically, Ion Cannons must have some serious power limitations, otherwise you'd see more ships like Subjugator where they're the primary weapon - disable the enemy then blast them to rubble. Instead, even the largest capships use turbolasers (or superlasers) as ultimate anti-ship weapons.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 05:06pm

The high-end for the Subjugator's canons, I believe, is disabling three Venator class cruisers with one shot.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-13 05:37pm

While I cannot recall the exact stats, I'm pretty sure one Bellator has stronger shields/more power available than three Venators.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 05:48pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:IIRC, no one on Hoth comments on the Executor being there, it's "a fleet of Star Destroyers."

One can surmise that the reason the Rebels chose the escape routes that they did (past the ISD's that were hit and disabled because that was easier/more effective than firing on Executor. Firing on the command ship when you have the option strikes me as being the most sensible option - unless for some reason it won't work.
Right, all they need is to disable a way through *one* path, and logically they'd pick the weakest path available.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 05:58pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:While I cannot recall the exact stats, I'm pretty sure one Bellator has stronger shields/more power available than three Venators.
That goes without saying, I should think.

But even if we assume (without much evidence one way or the other) that that's an upper limit for the Subjugator class, it might allow them to partially disable a Bellator, at least temporarily.

Especially since ion canons seem to be fairly effective at penetrating shields.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Batman » 2017-05-13 06:17pm

One should remember that those Venators weren't conveniently sitting on top of each other nor individually fired upon, they were hit by one discharge from the cannon at the same time, while being spread somewhat out. So we can't assume the combined shield strength of 3 Venators is the weapon's upper limit given most of that blast hit empty space and it was still capable of disabling 3 Venators
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-13 06:24pm

That is true.

But one thing that occurs to me is that the Subjugator's main firepower is a fixed forward mounting - if the Bellator starts the fight anywhere outside the ion cannon's fire arc, it can get in several unopposed salvos which may prove decisive.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 06:30pm

Not forward-facing. Side-facing. The Ion canons are mounted one on either side in the middle of the ship (below the bridge tower I think). They fire broadside.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-13 06:34pm

Really? Either way they're fixed mounts, so if the Bellator starts outside their fire arc and/or can move itself out, then I'd say she takes this one.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Batman » 2017-05-13 06:42pm

The ion cannon are amidships, the bridge tower is at the very rear of the ship.
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-13 06:46pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Really? Either way they're fixed mounts, so if the Bellator starts outside their fire arc and/or can move itself out, then I'd say she takes this one.
Hmm, I believe I mentioned previously that the Subjugator's smaller size might give it a maneuverability edge, though I'm not certain.

But yes, its going to hinge entirely on how quickly they can fire the ion canons at the Bellator, and how effective those canons are.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Batman » 2017-05-13 06:49pm

On a completely unrelated note, I find the reversal of the canon/cannon misspelling in this thread quite amusing :)
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 07:25pm

Batman wrote:One should remember that those Venators weren't conveniently sitting on top of each other nor individually fired upon, they were hit by one discharge from the cannon at the same time, while being spread somewhat out. So we can't assume the combined shield strength of 3 Venators is the weapon's upper limit given most of that blast hit empty space and it was still capable of disabling 3 Venators

Though any one of them was only protected by the shields of one Venator- so what we know is it covers X amount of space with enough Ion blast to overwhelm at least 1 Venators shield's worth of shielding to all targets within that area.


I.e. the shield strength wasn't combined, that same amount of power in one space may have been able to weather it. Being spread out, the weapon's whole power isn't delivered to a single target, and it might not even be possible for it to do so.


Also a Bellator would have, what, ten times a Venator's shield strength? More?

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Batman » 2017-05-13 11:08pm

Quite. Though the Bellator is also a much larger target and would thus have to absorb a much larger portion of the blast. Whether that is enough for the blast to overcome her defenses is anyone's guess.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-13 11:35pm

Also true.

Still, my money's on the Bellator's shields. In part because despite it's initial effectiveness, no-one decided to go the super ion route even when bigger ships became more common.

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