Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Patroklos » 2017-05-04 02:45am

Galvatron wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if many disloyal Imperials remained in the military and simply did their jobs badly, like Admiral Ozzel. It's been my belief for a long time that he was sympathetic to the rebellion and everything he did in TESB was done with the intention of helping the rebels.
I think you are badly misjudging the nature of people in these positions.

Our own history is full of people who after losing everything or having their world dramatically changed, a la surviving a devastating galactic war followed by the wholesale rearrangement of the galactic order, are left with nothing but their work. The prospect of returning to post war life is daunting for veterans under normal circumstances, but even worse when home is unrecognizable. When all you have left is your professionalism and status maintained through your position, you become a functionary obsessed with careerism. There are lots of stories about such people from post war Soviet Russia. With no home to go back to they throw themselves wholesale into government service.

I imagine most of the Imperial navy, officers in particular, have their identities inextricably linked to their careers. This is so normal to the human condition it can make otherwise normal people turn a blind eye to the Holocaust, or just work themselves to death in corporate limbo while their families fall apart because that's where they derive their value. I have run into many of the latter in my lifetime.

Surely we have all heard the stories of the job obsesses person who dies shortly after retirement. Unmoored from the anchor of most of their life they waste away.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Galvatron » 2017-05-04 01:28pm

I get what you're saying, but my head canon just prefers to regard Ozzel as an unsung rebel hero.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-05-04 04:00pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:

So,
ROUND SEVEN
One Executor Class battleships (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor/Legends), versus
Six Bellator Class battlecruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bellator ... readnought)

Alright, I think this can be safely called for the Bellators.

ROUND EIGHT
Three Venators (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator- ... er/Legends)
vs. One Impstar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... er/Legends)
The consensus seems to be that the Venators would win.

ROUND NINE

So, an Arquitens class light cruiser (http://starwarsrebels.wikia.com/wiki/Im ... ht_Cruiser) vs.
An Fulgor class pursuit frigate (http://fractalsponge.net/?p=307)
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-04 04:17pm

Is the Fulgor a fan made one....? I can't find it on wikipedia.


Anyway, the Fuglor is literally twice the size. Even though it sounds like it's focused on speed, that applies to both, that should be an easy win.

The only way a ship is going to win again a major size difference is if there's a notably era advantage or specialization advantage.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Darth Tanner » 2017-05-04 04:43pm

The Arquitens is 2.5 times shorter and significantly less thick... I'd imagine she is outpaced in shields, firepower and speed according to the Fulgor notes. The quad ion cannons on the Fulgor would likely disable her in one round... we see a pair of proton torpedoes tear one in two so she isnt exactly a sturdy design.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-05 05:35am

If you want a Small vs Big, something like a Scythe or Tri-scythe would be a better choice, they're designed to punch above their weight class.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-05 05:47am

I believe I've said before that I'd like to see Subjugator vs. Executor (or another dreadnought would do), though that's less Small vs. Big than Big vs. Obscenely Big.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Adam Reynolds » 2017-05-05 06:56pm

Darth Tanner wrote:The Arquitens is 2.5 times shorter and significantly less thick... I'd imagine she is outpaced in shields, firepower and speed according to the Fulgor notes. The quad ion cannons on the Fulgor would likely disable her in one round... we see a pair of proton torpedoes tear one in two so she isnt exactly a sturdy design.
If you are referring to the action over Geonosis, I was under the impression that its shields were down.

Though the B-wing attack is similar enough in any case, and presumably a reason we don't see the Arquitens in use in the film era, as they are too vulnerable to be worth it as the Alliance is getting better equipped. I wonder if the Nebulon B was intended to be capable of beating them as its primary function, leading to star destroyers being more frequently used by the Empire.

Though Battlefront 2 indicates that the even smaller Raider class corvette is still in use, I suspect it is a somewhat unique special operations vessel, sort of the Imperial version of Wraith Squadron.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-05-05 07:26pm

The Arqs are obviously for lightweight patrol and occupation duties. Since until Scarif and other rare occasions pre-Endor, the Rebels never really used their capships in major offensives, things like Arqs that have TIE complements are pretty well suited for responding to typical Rebel raids that're done with X-Wings, Y-Wings and weaponized freighters or sub-frigate and corvette-level craft.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-08 03:05pm

If we have our own matchups, do we put them here or make other threads?

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-05-08 07:16pm

Q99 wrote:If we have our own matchups, do we put them here or make other threads?
I think having people PM me to put them up is the best way to go about that.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Rhadamantus » 2017-05-10 02:54pm

Rhadamantus wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:
Rhadamantus wrote:

So,
ROUND SEVEN
One Executor Class battleships (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor/Legends), versus
Six Bellator Class battlecruisers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bellator ... readnought)

Alright, I think this can be safely called for the Bellators.

ROUND EIGHT
Three Venators (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Venator- ... er/Legends)
vs. One Impstar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... er/Legends)
The consensus seems to be that the Venators would win.

ROUND NINE

So, an Arquitens class light cruiser (http://starwarsrebels.wikia.com/wiki/Im ... ht_Cruiser) vs.
An Fulgor class pursuit frigate (http://fractalsponge.net/?p=307)
Okay, Fulgor wins.

ROUND TEN
A subjugator class cruiser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Subjugat ... er/Legends) vs.
A bellator class battlecruiser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bellator ... readnought)
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Galvatron » 2017-05-10 03:12pm

Here's a thought that just occurred to me: is it possible that the larger class Imperial warships have gravity well projectors like the interdictors do? I mean, a standard interdictor downright is minuscule compared to an Executor. Surely the big ships could accommodate the same machinery and power requirements as a frigate-sized vessel.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-10 03:17pm

It would make sense, but I'm not aware of any canon evidence for it. Interdictor cruisers seem to tend to be a dedicate thing, though to some extent that's probably a game-play mechanic.

Although, actually, wasn't Malik's command ship in KotOR (basically the Executor-equivalent for that game) also an interdictor?

As to Subjugator vs. Bellator... well I don't know that much about the Bellator, but I would tend to think that it would come down to how effective the Subjugator's ion canons were- if it could line up a shot before the Bellator pounded it into scrap, and if a canon that could one-shot disable a squadron of Venators could inflict crippling damage on a star dreadnought with one hit (or, failing that, get off multiple hits fast enough).

For the first question, I think that the Subjugator being smaller might actually help, lending it greater maneuverability.

For the second, their seem to be two main factors: how effective the canons are themselves, and what their recharge rate/rate of fire is. I'm not certain of either.

Could go either way.

Edits: I wonder how the fact that the Subjugator seems to have almost entirely a droid crew (based on The Clone Wars) would factor into it. The Bellator's crew might well be qualitatively superior, but also more easily killed (and parts of the vessel more easily rendered inoperable) by battle damage.

I will add that the Subjugator, based on its Clone Wars performance, seemed to be a highly durable ship. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it withstand a prolonged bombardment by a Venator squadron with shields down, following a successful bombing run on its main weapon by a Y-wing squadron, and still manage to be basically functional/easily repairable?
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-10 03:35pm

The Bellator/Subjugator discussion aside, in Legends-Canon some large ships did have gravwell projectors - the two Eclipse class vessels for instance. And later on, Wedge Antille's flagship during the latter part of the Yuuzhan Vong War, the Mon Mothma has gravwell generators that didn't even protrude from the hull or apparently impair her ISD-level combat power.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-05-10 04:55pm

Problem is, its all Legends canon now.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-10 05:09pm

True, but as Galvatron said, the volume and power required is small enough to be a rounding error for something like a Dreadnought. So I would say they could carry them if needed.

Of course, something like an Executor could probably just slip an Interdictor into it's hanger bay if needs be.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Q99 » 2017-05-10 06:08pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:It would make sense, but I'm not aware of any canon evidence for it. Interdictor cruisers seem to tend to be a dedicate thing, though to some extent that's probably a game-play mechanic.

Although, actually, wasn't Malik's command ship in KotOR (basically the Executor-equivalent for that game) also an interdictor?
Yes, but Essential Guide to Warfare iirc basically said that improvements in hyperdrives made that kind of interdiction not work so there was a wide period when it wasn't really a thing until improved methods got developed.


Some of these ships may be older than the modern interdiction technology started really rolling out.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Adam Reynolds » 2017-05-11 07:04am

That also fits what we see in Rebels, that it appears to be a new and mostly untested technology. It is also likely that there was almost no demand for it until the Clone Wars, at which point research intensified and we were left with a situation in which the technology was still too immature for front line warships and was thus installed in a frigate hull.

There is also something odd about the nature of the explosion as shown in Rebels. If there is something exotic about the technology, there is even less reason to install it in something the size of a star destroyer or larger. Tactically the dedicated and vulnerable nature of these vessels is a major flaw, but it is not without precedent in modern air combat with things like AWACS aircraft.

As a side note, personally I preferred the concept of space tactics without interdictors. That it was a question of physically positioning your ships in the way of enemy ships, as we saw over Coruscant and Endor. It also helps explain why smaller ships like the Millenium Falcon are so well liked by smugglers, in that they are much harder to physically stop. Oh well.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-05-11 03:51pm

Plus while the grav well may not be energy intensive, the esoteric mechanisms may get in the way with shields (that may be why the Mandos were able to just get on the Interdictor and shoot it up with small arms...) or sensors or FTL drives, or all of the above, defeating the purpose of having a massive weapons-festooned capital killship that can find and chase prey across the galaxy. So putting the gravwell projector on another platform might make sense.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Galvatron » 2017-05-11 05:57pm

In that case, I wonder why the Empire doesn't just equip unmanned satellites with gravity well projectors and deploy them like mines.

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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-05-11 06:02pm

Galvatron wrote:In that case, I wonder why the Empire doesn't just equip unmanned satellites with gravity well projectors and deploy them like mines.

In Legends they did. Wraith Squadron has grav well/ emp/ion mines.Knocks them out of hyperspace with the grav well. Then disables them ready for a follow up attack,
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-11 06:02pm

Galvatron wrote:In that case, I wonder why the Empire doesn't just equip unmanned satellites with gravity well projectors and deploy them like mines.
At least one Warlord did just that - they were called Empion mines, they had a gravwell generator, a wide angle one-shot ion cannon and EMP projector and a comm set to signal the warlord when the mines detonated.

Drag enemies out of hyperspace, disable them then signal for reinforcements. Wraith Squadron encountered one while escaping from Folor/Commenor.

Also, the Yuuzhan Vong used dovin basal mines as you suggest, and by mid-way through the war the NR/GFFA had developed their own versions.

The problem, as was pointed out in the Wraith Squadron book, was that unless the mines also disable the enemy ships it's of questionable use - the ships dragged from hyperspace could simpy destroy the satellite then jump again. So you had to use them on known routes when you knew enemy forces would be traveling.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Crazedwraith, damnit.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-05-11 06:07pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
EDIT: Ninja'd by Crazedwraith, damnit.
But I appreciate the extra detail. I'd forgotten the NJO Era examples.

And of course the EMPIONS wouldn't have been effective on anything much bigger than the a subfighter squadron anyway.

Although they'd affected repairs and did over come their attacker if it had been anything much bigger than the Corellian Corvette they faced, they would have been done it.
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Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars (Revived)

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-11 06:12pm

The NJO era ones only came to mind because I recently re-read Destiny's Way where such mines on both sides play a significant roles.

There are also the giant dovin basal satellites deployed around Coruscant/Yuuzhan'tar as a substitute or planetary shields - funky-acting giant black hole generators....fun...
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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