Last Jedi first trailer.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-18 05:32pm

Star Wars has at least two benevolent monarchies on Naboo and Alderaan. Why couldn't Rey's Empire just follow their model?

After all, what sort of governments produced all those Disney princesses?

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-18 05:49pm

Eh, Naboo's "monarchy" hardly counts, as its leader is democratically elected. They're basically a democratic republic that just happens to call the President the Queen for some strange reason.

But its not just the fact that it would be promoting monarchy, which as you noted is common enough and hardly the most malevolent form of government, at least if its a constitutional monarchy (however much I disdain a government based on heredity).

Its the fact that you are positing an empire under Empress Rey, as a successor to the Galactic Empire, with Rey's claim being based on her being a descendant of Palpatine. A man who's claim to being Emperor in the first place was built on treason, lies, and genocide.

It would be like if they turned up a granddaughter of Adolph Hitler somewhere and made her Fuhrer of the Fourth Reich on the basis of her being Hitler's granddaughter. No matter how nice a person hypothetical Hitler's granddaughter might be, I'd consider that an abhorrent basis for a government.

Plus, it conjures up bad memories of every Imperial apologist fan I've ever encountered on-line.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-18 06:01pm

I hate to break it to you, but the new EU has already gone a long way towards making half of the galaxy wistfully nostalgic for the stability and strength of Palpatine's Empire.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Centrists

Maybe the films will ignore that, but I can't imagine a duller ending to the saga than another new New Republic. Moreover:
Rian Johnson, the writer and director of Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi, also proposed a number of ideas that made it into the novel. These ideas include the disposition of the New Republic's government and the makeup of its political factions.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodline_(novel)

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-18 06:07pm

Oh, I have no problem believing that there would be a lot of people longing for the "good old days". We have them in the real world too. You might recall them marching around Charlotsville with Tiki torches, assault rifles, and Confederate flags.

What I'd have a problem with is the films, or their protagonists, validating nostalgia for a genocidal dictatorship. Because now, of all times, is that really a message we want to see?
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-18 06:16pm

Honestly, I think it all depends on how it's written.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-18 06:18pm

Maybe, but that would be a really hard idea to sell without a lot of "unfortunate implications". Especially now.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-18 06:24pm

I'm optimistic that "especially now" will be better in December 2019 than it is in October 2017.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-18 06:26pm

Galvatron wrote:
2017-10-18 06:24pm
I'm optimistic that "especially now" will be better in December 2019 than it is in October 2017.
Well, we'll see how the Midterms/Mueller investigation go, won't we? :wink:

But this is kind of straying off-topic.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Steve » 2017-10-18 11:08pm

Galvatron wrote:
2017-10-18 06:01pm
I hate to break it to you, but the new EU has already gone a long way towards making half of the galaxy wistfully nostalgic for the stability and strength of Palpatine's Empire.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Centrists

Maybe the films will ignore that, but I can't imagine a duller ending to the saga than another new New Republic. Moreover:
Rian Johnson, the writer and director of Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi, also proposed a number of ideas that made it into the novel. These ideas include the disposition of the New Republic's government and the makeup of its political factions.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodline_(novel)
I'm not surprised. The idea of people wanting to bring back the tyranny because "we felt more stable" is something a lot of writers do. Giving in to that narrative is different from acknowledging it happens, OTOH.

I for one grew tired of Imperial fanboyism a long time ago, to the point that when Rebels made them puppykicking cardboard villains my aggravation was completely overshadowed by the schadenfreude with which I greeted the fanboy howls of rage. Like TRR, an ending of "Oh the Empire wasn't that bad, we'll form a new one but nicer this time" would sour me on the sequel trilogy.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-19 02:47pm

I was never an Imperial fanboy, but I can see the handwriting on the wall. When TFA depicted the New Republic as a dysfunctional bureaucracy paralyzed by weak leadership and indecision, I developed this hunch that whatever "happy ending" the saga has will resemble something closer a fairy tale kingdom from a Disney story (or the aforementioned Alderaan).

I imagine something less Galactic Empire 2.0 and more of a galactic Camelot.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-19 06:33pm

Steve wrote:
2017-10-18 11:08pm
Galvatron wrote:
2017-10-18 06:01pm
I hate to break it to you, but the new EU has already gone a long way towards making half of the galaxy wistfully nostalgic for the stability and strength of Palpatine's Empire.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Centrists

Maybe the films will ignore that, but I can't imagine a duller ending to the saga than another new New Republic. Moreover:
Rian Johnson, the writer and director of Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi, also proposed a number of ideas that made it into the novel. These ideas include the disposition of the New Republic's government and the makeup of its political factions.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bloodline_(novel)
I'm not surprised. The idea of people wanting to bring back the tyranny because "we felt more stable" is something a lot of writers do. Giving in to that narrative is different from acknowledging it happens, OTOH.
I think in part its a reflection of a trend in real-world politics right now toward "strong" authoritarian governments, with the election of a certain orange pussy-grabber being the most obvious manifestation. Its a sadly common disease of the human psyche, which seems to manifest whenever a large and powerful group of people feel threatened or frustrated with the status quo.

Which makes such a subtext all the more disturbing, because its validating and arguably fueling a real-world political trend with very serious consequences.

I could also go on at great length about the fallacy of equating dictatorship or monarchy with strong, stable government, or with greater security and safety. Tyranny may be "safe" for those in power, while it lasts, and as long as the toe the line and don't piss off anyone with more power, but it certainly isn't safe for the dissidents, or the scapegoats, or those who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time and piss off someone with power.

Nor is it necessarily stable. When an authoritarian government fails, it tends to fail catastrophically, because there is no mechanism in place for a peaceful transition of power. That's what democracy and the rule of law ultimately are, at least in part- pressure release mechanisms for government and society, to give people an outlet for their frustrations and an avenue for change that doesn't involve bodies in the street.

Take that away, and we tend to end up with the alternative.

History has shown this again and again, and yet people still cling to the "strong authoritarian government" illusion, and the belief that security can only come at the expense of liberty, or vice versa, rather than the two being necessary to one another.
I for one grew tired of Imperial fanboyism a long time ago, to the point that when Rebels made them puppykicking cardboard villains my aggravation was completely overshadowed by the schadenfreude with which I greeted the fanboy howls of rage. Like TRR, an ending of "Oh the Empire wasn't that bad, we'll form a new one but nicer this time" would sour me on the sequel trilogy.
Indeed.
Galvatron wrote:
2017-10-19 02:47pm
I was never an Imperial fanboy, but I can see the handwriting on the wall. When TFA depicted the New Republic as a dysfunctional bureaucracy paralyzed by weak leadership and indecision, I developed this hunch that whatever "happy ending" the saga has will resemble something closer a fairy tale kingdom from a Disney story (or the aforementioned Alderaan).
The thing is, they have a chance to do something really wonderful- to show that just because democracy is flawed doesn't mean we have to abandon it. That the heroes can work to improve it, to make it work for people. That's a message people really need to hear right now.

I likewise doubt that they will do that, but if so, it will be a wasted opportunity.
I imagine something less Galactic Empire 2.0 and more of a galactic Camelot.
That would be... acceptable to me, if that were all it was, even if it wouldn't be my preference.

But your scenario specifically posited a new Empire based on "Rey is descended from Palpatine." A man who's entire regime, and who's claim to being Emperor, was founded on lies, treason, war crimes, and genocide.

Again, it would be like if they found a descendent of Hitler and decided to make her Fuhrer of the German Fourth Reich. She could be the nicest, most honorable, most progressive and fair-minded person in the world, and it would still be a ridiculous, and offensive, basis for a government.

Having Rey's hypothetical claim to power be tied to her Force powers in any way would also be problematic, as it raises the spectre of a biologically "superior" upper class.

But I'd rather they just make Rey queen because she's just that awesome. Inevitable Mary Sue complaints be damned. :)
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Khaat » 2017-10-19 07:56pm

I'm hoping it comes to pass that Rey's "nobody", just like she said.

Biggest drawback to mythos (the hero's journey): the hero may not be someone when they start, but the are at the end, and that's often interpreted as exceptionalism/Calvinism/whatever. I could see that the traditional "son of..." thing is patriarchal/elitism, but isn't the bones of the story always that in some respect? The rags-to-riches fairy tale, with some old-fashioned (and often unnecessary) "child of Zeus" qualifier thrown in on top?
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-19 08:05pm

Well, I think that Rey almost has to have some sort of Skywalker connection at this point, given how heavily its been hinted at.

Perhaps it would have been better if they'd gone in a different direction to start with, but the main trilogy films have always been the Skywalker story.

That said, I wouldn't want her to become queen of the galaxy or something on the basis of her Force power, or her heritage. While the story of the hero who is born in obscurity but turns out to be the long lost heir to the throne is a classic one, the idea of a "chosen one", particularly when its based on heredity, is a product of old and, in my opinion, dangerous ideas that developed in an age where monarchy and theocracy were still the predominant forms of government.

I'd prefer to see a hero who succeeds on their own merit- and not in the sense of being biologically "superior", but by being a good person, dedicated to what they do.

Or, alternatively, have the hero not get a "happily ever after" ending, but sacrifice their own happiness so that others are protected. Either works, depending on the circumstances and how dark a tone you want the story to have.

Edit: Actually, I've said before, I believe, that it might be interesting to have Rey fall at the end of this film (which some of the promotional material seems to be hinting at), and then have the last film be Finn trying to turn Rey back to the Light Side.

It would fit with the hinted at connection/similarity between Rey and Anakin (especially if the "Rey is a reincarnation of Anakin/the Chosen One" theory is true), it would be something a Star Wars film has never done before (and fit with the originality of some of the character choices in TFA, and the tendency to deconstruct the Dark Sider archetype with Kylo Ren). It would give the films a formidable individual antagonist which they currently lack (unless the existing villains rise to the challenge in TFA- the trailers give me some hope in that respect). And it would address the complaints that Rey is too perfect (albeit possibly by going too far in the other direction).

That said, I do have a couple misgivings about it. The first is that it would probably rule out, for all practical purposes, any sort of happy ending for Rey, given the kinds of atrocities she would likely commit if she fell to the Dark Side. They'd probably feel obligated to give her an atonement by death ending like Vader, and I don't want that.

The second is that taking the first female protagonist of a Star Wars film and turning her into a monster could have some sexist implications, and would certainly be seen that way by many.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Khaat » 2017-10-19 08:26pm

I was thinking about that, but the story already is about a Skywalker: Kylo Ren. And for all it's worth, the Skywalkers came out of nowhere, too.

I'd much rather she go off and do her own thing (once the BBEG is defeated) and leave the galaxy to take its own reins.

I am wary, though, that Hamill's "all the wrong choices" made for Luke in TLJ are going to be either a) "nobody should train anyone, let the Force work it out" (since that prophecy turned out so well), or b) "training good guys means bad guys are made to fight them." (Once upon an EU, the Sith were just a race until a fallen Jedi found them...)
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-19 08:35pm

Yeah, I'm worried that they're going to go the Jedi/Light Side bashing route, myself.

Although... if I had a choice for the end of Rey's story, it would probably be that she complete what Luke failed at- reinventing the Jedi Order. Rather than a position of political power.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Galvatron » 2017-10-19 09:46pm

They could always give us no happy ending at all. In a galaxy far, far away...there is only war. :D

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-19 09:49pm

Oh, one more thing I'll add:

I don't normally do shipping debates on-line, but I want Rey/Finn as a couple. Mostly just to annoy the racists who's greatest fear is the "pure" white race intermarrying with non-white people. ;)
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2017-10-26 11:16pm

Huh. Turns out that the X-Wing Miniatures Game, of all things, has spoiled what those half-Nebulon B looking ships in the trailer are. They're heavy bombers of some type. Fairly well nixes the possibility of their being light capital ships that was discussed when the trailer dropped.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by AniThyng » 2017-10-27 12:35am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2017-10-18 04:46pm
Galvatron wrote:
2017-10-11 04:43pm
Batman wrote:
2017-10-10 07:11pm
She and somebody are. Given the relative ease with which a completely untrained Rey beat Kylo's ass Luke might be referring to Snoke.
Or Palpatine. Which would make the Rey Palpatine theory even better. :D

Come to think of it, if Rey is the Emperor's granddaughter, wouldn't that make her his rightful heir? Could Episode IX end with her uniting what's left of the First Order and the New Republic into a second (and benevolent) Galactic Empire?
A canonical film appearing to validate the position of the Empire apologists and promoting the "benevolent dictatorship" illusion would pretty much be a deal-breaker, and might even force me into refusing to acknowledge the ST as canon.
Didn't legends already do this with baron Fel and his empire...
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2017-10-27 09:36pm

Yeah, I guess.

A lot of Legends also sucked balls.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2017-11-08 02:07am

did they make a new trailer?
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Rogue 9 » 2017-11-08 11:06pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2017-11-08 02:07am
did they make a new trailer?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=new+star+wars+trailer
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Q99 » 2017-11-09 09:04pm

AniThyng wrote:
2017-10-27 12:35am
Didn't legends already do this with baron Fel and his empire...
Kinda? But Emperor Roan Fel found 1) His political subordinates made a deal with the sith in order to gain more power leading to a coup against him, and 2) in his attempt to eliminate the sith, he was manipulated into almost virus-bombing Coruscant, leading to his pseudo-Jedi subordinates (lightsiders btw) to stab in through the heart.

Even the kinder gentler Fel Empire found itself 80% hollowed out and used as a puppet of the Sith.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-11-14 12:31am

Speaking of Rey's parents it's implied that Spoiler
she might be Iden Versio's daughter based on the lines in the BF2 ending After all why would Kylo Ren specifically mention a daughter (from a story point of view) if that wasn't important
If the spoiler is correct and not just idle speculation then Rey would essentially be a nobody.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by RogueIce » 2017-11-15 09:25pm

I'm hoping it's a lot of nothing just because I don't want movie details in freaking video games where we'd have to play it to find them.
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