Last Jedi first trailer.

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Abacus
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Abacus » 2017-12-08 08:08am

Ender wrote:
2017-12-07 10:06pm
Abacus wrote:
2017-11-29 08:52am
Ender wrote:
2017-11-29 01:24am
He can't frame a shot to save his life, he doesn't have remotely the creative visual flair for Star Wars...
You did see The Avengers (2012), yes?
Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was listing why he was bad. Compare the shots of Man of Steel with Avengers. For his multitude other faults, Snyder can do the basic composition that Wheldon cannot
Uh, yeah, no. MoS was garbage in comparison.
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Crazedwraith
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-08 08:16am

Abacus wrote:
2017-12-08 08:08am
Ender wrote:
2017-12-07 10:06pm
Abacus wrote:
2017-11-29 08:52am


You did see The Avengers (2012), yes?
Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was listing why he was bad. Compare the shots of Man of Steel with Avengers. For his multitude other faults, Snyder can do the basic composition that Wheldon cannot
Uh, yeah, no. MoS was garbage in comparison.
Abacus, you do realise he's taking about a specific aspect of film-making rather than the films over all, yes?

Now as a complete amateur, I don't really know anything about film composition and how to judge what is technically good. And I remember specific shots in Avengers I thought were awesome though. (The team circle shot, the big oner in the fight) I don't remember anything like that in Man Of Steel.

Ender - Do you mind elaborating on makes good and bad composition?
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Kane Starkiller
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2017-12-08 09:03am

Man of Steel was the first comic book movie in a long time whose action scenes I found actually impressive. Faora taking down US soldiers with super speed, that big Kryptonian jumping on A-10, Faora/big guy/Superman brawl, Zod and Superman fight at the end of the movie...
The only fight that seemed superflous and not well thought out was the World Engine tentacles vs Superman which should've been cut and replaced with perhaps a slow scene of Superman entering the machine and crawling towards the reactor as the Kryptionian environment weakens him or something like that.

In contrast I can't remember a single fight scene from either Avengers that I found impressive except maybe Hulk smashing Loki around but that was more about the humor of the situation rather than actually being a well thought out action scene.
The big ending of the first Avengers is them taking on hordes of useless grunts and wiping the floor with them. The big ending of the second Avengers was them taking on hordes of useless robots and wiping the floor with them in slow motion while camera circles around.
Imagine if the big ending of Terminator 2 was T-101 fighting hordes of bikers that arrived at the steel mill to avenge their buddy from the beginning and then we are treated to the slow motion of Arnie wiping the floor with them. That's how little thought goes into creating action scenes for these movies that, at their core, are supposed to be action movies.
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Coop D'etat
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Coop D'etat » 2017-12-08 06:38pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-12-08 08:16am
Abacus wrote:
2017-12-08 08:08am
Ender wrote:
2017-12-07 10:06pm


Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was listing why he was bad. Compare the shots of Man of Steel with Avengers. For his multitude other faults, Snyder can do the basic composition that Wheldon cannot
Uh, yeah, no. MoS was garbage in comparison.
Abacus, you do realise he's taking about a specific aspect of film-making rather than the films over all, yes?

Now as a complete amateur, I don't really know anything about film composition and how to judge what is technically good. And I remember specific shots in Avengers I thought were awesome though. (The team circle shot, the big oner in the fight) I don't remember anything like that in Man Of Steel.

Ender - Do you mind elaborating on makes good and bad composition?

I would say that even the particularly memorable shots in the Avengers weren't that great as visuals themselves, but because of their emotional context. The team circle shot in particular is the climax of the moviec, the point where the protagonists previously intractable individual problems become solvable because they've become a team, earned by the process of them working out their differences over the course of the film. Puny god works because its the final refutation of Loki's conceit of being a superior being.

Contrast that to Snyder's work, which is visually impressive but tends to be forgetable because they tend to mean so little in terms of storytelling or character.

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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Ender » 2017-12-09 12:10pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-12-08 08:16am
Abacus wrote:
2017-12-08 08:08am
Ender wrote:
2017-12-07 10:06pm


Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking of when I was listing why he was bad. Compare the shots of Man of Steel with Avengers. For his multitude other faults, Snyder can do the basic composition that Wheldon cannot
Uh, yeah, no. MoS was garbage in comparison.
Abacus, you do realise he's taking about a specific aspect of film-making rather than the films over all, yes?

Now as a complete amateur, I don't really know anything about film composition and how to judge what is technically good. And I remember specific shots in Avengers I thought were awesome though. (The team circle shot, the big oner in the fight) I don't remember anything like that in Man Of Steel.

Ender - Do you mind elaborating on makes good and bad composition?
They aren't on netflix anymore so I can't screencap and do comparisons. But Coop has the right of it - Snyder is much stronger at visual shots than anything else. I basically think of his style as he comes up with really nice shots and then tries to build the the movie around those individual shots. Which is why the movies are god awful, they are supposed to be more than the sum of their parts, and are instead just godawful because it is random shit getting to the next shot.

Whereas Wheldon is bad at the visuals, but he is much better at overall pacing so when you reach those cresendo moments, it hits. However, his characterization and emotional investment that got you there is basically the filmatic equivalent of cotten candy, and the sugar rush will wear off and memory of the emotional investment doesn't stick.

Basically, if you want to do a quick contrast, freeze Avengers when Cap is directing the cops on top of the taxi, and Man of Steel when Superman looks up at Zod as he realizes his full "Kryptonian on earth" power. Both are the points of the film where the character is hitting their defining moment, where they face their greatest challenge and are revealing their true character (Cap as an empathic leader, Supes as well the less said of his characterization the better)

Cap is wedged over on the left, and cops in the forefront. Most of the frame is empty background showing the later greenscreened in devestation. Focus is on the cops and their response, lighting on Cap is not great, lot of shadow. Tries for rule of thirds but doesn't quite nail it, mainly because of how much open space he saved for the CGI.

Supes is centered, well lit, , devestation in the background is a haze, tight shot on his face where you see him swallow his fear and become determined. Good use of static composition.


Example of someone who blends the strengths of these two together well btw would be Rami's Act 2 fight/train scene in Spider-Man 2. Good visual direction, lots of use of dynamic composition, emotional investment and catharsis.

But anyway, strong visual direction and shot composition are not the same as a good movie. If they were, everyone would love Attack of the Clones, where Lucas does some great work with visual metaphor, but instead all we talk about is that damn "sand gets everywhere" line.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Crazedwraith » 2017-12-09 12:13pm

Thanks for the explanation Ender. It would be interesting to hear what you thought of Justice League since both Synder and Whedon worked on it.
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Vympel
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Vympel » 2017-12-10 03:13am

From the Visual Dictionary:

Tech / military strength stuff:
Spoiler
Modernised AT-ST: modest updates. improved gyroscopic systems for better balance, and upgraded armored shell due to new breakthroughs in lightweight materials

Modernised AT-AT: lighter materials as strong as Galactic Civil War-era armor can now be layered, increasing protection with no increase in weight

AT-MA, AT-PD and AT-HS walkers also deployed.

Praetorian Guard armor can deflect glancing lightsaber blows due to mag-coils. However it is costly, heavy, and painful to the wearer.

Pintle-mounted FWMB-10 repeating blasters can be hooked up to a power generator ala the E-Web

Stormtrooper helmets broadcasts a trooper's serial number to their squadmates' helmet displays - Executioner helmets don't do this.

Stormtrooper MFTAS mention again

Laser Ax - its for theatricality.

Raddus has an 'advanced' deflector shield system that can push the envelope of protective energy far from its hull

Ninka (rebel capship) carries heavy plasma bombs for orbital bombardment

Anodyne is a decommissioned Nebulon-C frigate. Converted to a hospital ship and stripped of its most powerful armaments

Vigil is a cargo frigate. light weapons.

Resistance doesn't have dedicated infantry

Infantry helmets are New Republic surplus, from before disarmament. No longer in production

Rose develops a 'baffle' system that makes Resistance bombers harder to detect on sensors

Phasma has an upgraded MFTAS

RZ-2 A-Wing is an upgrade of the RZ-1 but decades old. More powerful jammers than the original make it a less tempting sensor target.

T-85 X-Wings are all gone, destroyed at Hosnian Prime

MG-100 Starfortress (Resistance Bomber) is an awesome name

30 Star Destroyers are pursuing the Resistance fleet

Mandator-IV Siege Dreadnought is called the Fulminatrix. Her cannons can punch through planetary shields and tear apart capships

Supremacy has *Star Destroyer* docking bays. Crew is in the 'millions'.
Spoiler tags on this forum software seem broken so I can't post the other stuff without new posts.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Ace Pace » 2017-12-10 07:20am

I'm thinking that we should move any and all spoilers (since reviews are starting to come in) to a new thread.
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Ender
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Ender » 2017-12-10 11:40am

Crazedwraith wrote:
2017-12-09 12:13pm
Thanks for the explanation Ender. It would be interesting to hear what you thought of Justice League since both Synder and Whedon worked on it.
Have not seen it, have zero intention to. Honestly I'm about done for all the superhero/monolithic nerd franchise stuff.
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by PhoenixKnig » 2017-12-10 01:16pm

Ace Pace wrote:
2017-12-10 07:20am
I'm thinking that we should move any and all spoilers (since reviews are starting to come in) to a new thread.
can the links to the thread be posted here?
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Re: Last Jedi first trailer.

Post by Ace Pace » 2017-12-10 02:02pm

PhoenixKnig wrote:
2017-12-10 01:16pm
Ace Pace wrote:
2017-12-10 07:20am
I'm thinking that we should move any and all spoilers (since reviews are starting to come in) to a new thread.
can the links to the thread be posted here?
Sure, if you can't look in the parent forum, it's right here.
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