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So, I'm pretty sure that the generally accepted view of ROTJ is that it's the weakest of the OT films, not bad per se, but definitely weaker than ANH or ESB.

With that in mind, what would you do differently? Put yourself in Lucas' shoes, coming up with a plotline for Episode VI with only ANH and ESB as a basis, no EU or other films have been made at this point. You may assume original cast are available at the same age as they were for ROTJ, and you may also assume that VFX technology is at present-day levels, so if you want a colossal space battle, you can have it.

EDIT: Only requirement is that this be the last OT-era SW film, no stringing it out into a fourth film. Since we have good versus evil themes, the Emperor has to be defeated and the Rebels victorious, but you can leave open whether the Empire itself crumbles as a result.

This is my fantasy scenario!

Top priority is changing the story so that while Vader is still Luke's birth father, he's not Anakin Skywalker. It would turn out that young Darth really did betray and murder the elder Skywalker. Oh yeah, and he also used a Sith mind trick to deceive Luke's mother into bed. He didn't love her, he just lusted after her.

Leia wouldn't be Luke sister either. Their other last hope wouldn't have their identity revealed in ROTJ. It would remain a mysterious loose thread for any sequels to tie up.

And do you go about revealling that and have it be at all meaningful?

I take it Vader is not redeemed in your version? Since if he only lusted after Padme he'd have even less affection for Luke.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:So, I'm pretty sure that the generally accepted view of ROTJ is that it's the weakest of the OT films, not bad per se, but definitely weaker than ANH or ESB.

Who the hell thinks that? Empire Strikes Back is maybe better, it's a hard call to make, but Return of the Jedi blows the first movie out of the water.

Galvatron wrote:This is my fantasy scenario!

Top priority is changing the story so that while Vader is still Luke's birth father, he's not Anakin Skywalker. It would turn out that young Darth really did betray and murder the elder Skywalker. Oh yeah, and he also used a Sith mind trick to deceive Luke's mother into bed. He didn't love her, he just lusted after her.

Leia wouldn't be Luke sister either. Their other last hope wouldn't have their identity revealed in ROTJ. It would remain a mysterious loose thread for any sequels to tie up.

I just found that incredibly lame. Darth Vader's redemption was beautiful and the "Vader is a broken man beneath his cold exterior who hates himself but feels it's too late to ever go back" adds depth to him

Crazedwraith wrote:And do you go about revealling that and have it be at all meaningful?

Yes, although ROTJ would only reveal the broad strokes. The new prequels would fill in the ugly details.

Crazedwraith wrote:I take it Vader is not redeemed in your version?

Why would you assume that? Luke is still Vader's son and Vader still sacrifices himself to save Luke. Bear in mind that Vader never once mentioned Padme in the entire OT.

Crazedwraith wrote:Since if he only lusted after Padme he'd have even less affection for Luke.

So what? Lots of people were conceived by parents who never loved each other. My parents are divorced and loathe each other. Does that mean my mom and dad can't love me?

Darth Yan wrote:I just found that incredibly lame. Darth Vader's redemption was beautiful and the "Vader is a broken man beneath his cold exterior who hates himself but feels it's too late to ever go back" adds depth to him

Then I guess you're lucky that no one is actually remaking ROTJ. Out of curiosity though, do you feel that Vader lacked suitable depth before his redemption in the final moments of the final film of the OT?

Did ya need to break it down sentence by sentence? Really?

Galvatron wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:And do you go about revealling that and have it be at all meaningful?

Yes, although ROTJ would only reveal the broad strokes. The new prequels would fill in the ugly details.

Sorry that should read 'How do you go about revealing it?" You want Obi-Wan to go. "You're only here because Vader raped your mom." And Luke to respond: "Yep, that sounds like the guy I believe can be redeemed!"

Crazedwraith wrote:I take it Vader is not redeemed in your version?

Why would you assume that? Luke is still Vader's son and Vader still sacrifices himself to save Luke.

Crazedwraith wrote:Since if he only lusted after Padme he'd have even less affection for Luke.

So what? Lots of people were conceived by parents who never loved each other.

Because "Vader's remember familial love for wife and son" is a lot stronger in theme than. "Vader sacrifices everything for a kid he accidentally made raping some girl and never knew".

The redemption arc works because his family is a reminder of the good man he used to be. Your way apparently has him as dick all along at worst, or at best has Luke a product of his fall into darkness.

Crazedwraith wrote:Sorry that should read 'How do you go about revealing it?" You want Obi-Wan to go. "You're only here because Vader raped your mom." And Luke to respond: "Yep, that sounds like the guy I believe can be redeemed!"

Nah, my dialogue would sound a lot less pissy than your interpretation. I would actually change it up so Vader is the one who tells Luke that he "deceived your mother into believing that I was Anakin Skywalker" or something to that effect. The implication would be obvious. Think Uther and Igraine in Excalibur.

Obi-Wan wouldn't be the one to tell Luke because he always believed that Anakin really was Luke's father.

But, by all means, let's turn this into a debate about how rape is what makes Vader irredeemable, but not the mass murder of children.

Crazedwraith wrote:Because "Vader's remember familial love for wife and son" is a lot stronger in theme than. "Vader sacrifices everything for a kid he accidentally made raping some girl and never knew".

The redemption arc works because his family is a reminder of the good man he used to be. Your way apparently has him as dick all along at worst, or at best has Luke a product of his fall into darkness.

Funny, I seem to recall the redemption arc working just fine for many years before the prequels came along and told us the story of his wife and marriage.

Regardless, in my version Darth Vader is still a fallen Jedi, which means he started out as a good guy and a hero before being seduced by the dark side of the Force during the Clone Wars.

Galvatron wrote: But, by all means, let's turn this into a debate about how rape is what makes Vader irredeemable, but not the mass murder of children.

That's not an argument I'm making but It would certainly make him less attached to Luke and vice versa.

In my version, Darth Vader is still a fallen Jedi, which means he started out as a good guy and a hero before being seduced by the dark side of the Force.

Other than remove the need for Obi-Wan's certain point of view speech. Why do you think this improves upon the original?

I'm not sure I'd agree that RotJ is the weakest of the OT.

I consider the conclusion of Luke and Vader's story in particular not only arguably the defining moment of the franchise, but one of the strongest in all of cinema. It takes old tropes-the hero who is tragically destined by fate to kill his father, the battle to the death between the hero and villain-and turns them on their head, with Luke's idealism and love for his father allowing him to redeem the villain and achieve what armies could not. Its one of the most original, idealistic, and powerful conclusions in film. All the more so when viewed in light of the Prequel Trilogy, and we can see the full progression of the Jedi from an order which supressed emotional connections out of fear, and arguably fell as a result, to one that embraced those connections, and triumphed as a result.

I think people largely just whine about RotJ because "Waah! Ewoks! Just for kids!", mainly. And, okay, the pacing was a little off at times, maybe, and the Leia being Luke's sister thing was a bit awkward and out of left field.

That said... if I were remaking it now... probably tone down some of the goofier things in Jabba's palace and with the Ewoks, make the Ewoks a little more high-tech. maybe (though not by much- the simple villagers rising up against the evil empire is a time-honoured trope that fits well with Star Wars' space mythology style), maybe handle the Leia reveal a little differently (no changing it outright unless you're remaking the whole series). Update some of the effects. That's about it.

Hmm, ok, maybe I should change the parameters somewhat. Keep same characters as established in ANH and ESB, Rebellion story arc must be resolved, Luke/Vader arc must be resolved, Han rescued etc. But change the details. Perhaps instead of going up against another Death Star, you have the Rebels building up enough to try taking Coruscant and storm the Imperial Palace.

On the Vader rape discussion: my problem with it is not so much that it would render Vader irredeemable (not that rape isn't evil, of course, but as pointed out elsewhere, Vader's canonically done things that are just as bad or worse), or that it would make his relationship with Luke less meaningful (though that could be argued, of course, depending on your philosophical outlook), but that its adding gratuitous rape for no real reason.

That and its undoing one of the most brilliant plot twists in cinematic history for a much lamer and more contrived twist, just so that... what, we don't have to deal with the ambiguity of Obi-wan being full of shit?

But even for that, we don't actually need to introduce rape to the plot- just have Anakin's wife cheat on him.

It just comes off as adding rape for the sake of rape, frankly. Or rape for the sake of lame plot twist and gratuitous grimdark, which is only a little better.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Galvatron wrote: But, by all means, let's turn this into a debate about how rape is what makes Vader irredeemable, but not the mass murder of children.

That's not an argument I'm making but It would certainly make him less attached to Luke and vice versa.

And I still think that's a dumb assertion. Children are conceived accidentally or without the father's knowledge all the time, but those fathers end up with feelings of attachment to their child anyway. Go figure.

Regardless, I always thought Vader's affection for Luke was a gradual development anyway. In fact, I don't think it really clicked until he saw his son being slowly electrocuted to death that he realized he loved his son and made his fateful choice.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Galvatron wrote:In my version, Darth Vader is still a fallen Jedi, which means he started out as a good guy and a hero before being seduced by the dark side of the Force.

Other than remove the need for Obi-Wan's certain point of view speech. Why do you think this improves upon the original?

Because I think it would also result in a better prequel trilogy. It would both spare us the nauseating romance and I think the Anakin/Ben/Darth dynamic would be more interesting to see.

Without getting into too much detail, my Episode 1 would be about Darth and Anakin working together to rescue Obi-Wan from the bad guys.

The Romulan Republic wrote:It just comes off as adding rape for the sake of rape, frankly. Or rape for the sake of lame plot twist and gratuitous grimdark, which is only a little better.

It wouldn't show the rape, for fuck's sake. Just like ANH didn't show Vader torturing Leia.

And it doesn't undo the twist either. Vader is still revealed to be Luke's father. The only difference is that Vader and Luke's assumed father are different people.

To the first point: It doesn't have to show it for it to be an entirely needless addition.

To the second point: Overly complicated and contrived, likely turning an elegant twist into a clunky one.

I mean, its theoretically possible that it could be executed well, but its quite unnecessary, and the cons to my mind outweigh the pros rather heavily.

The Romulan Republic wrote:To the first point: It doesn't have to show it for it to be an entirely needless addition.

I don't consider it needless. I prefer Luke's mother to remain innocent of adultery, thus I went with the Sith mind trick versus deliberate infidelity.

And the twist is already clunky as fuck. Between Obi-Wan's bullshit and the twincest, ROTJ is full of clunk.

Ehh, the whole thing still feels like awkward and unnecessary muddling of a good plot point to me.

Oh, one thing I would change about Endor- spend a bit more time on the capital ship side of the battle, rather than just the fighters. Would also avoid the implication that a few fighters brought down the Executor easily.

Edit: Nothing excessive, nothing that would distract from the character drama between Palpatine, Vader, and Luke. Just a few scenes/shots, totalling maybe a couple minutes more screen time.

I would make it clear that most of the Empire's governors, admirals, generals and various other top-ranking officials were invited to witness the end of the rebellion and are aboard the Death Star when it explodes.

Move it to Kashyyyk, replace the Ewoks with Wookiee Freedom Fighters, add some TIE Defenders and Interdictor cruisers to the battle and have the battle end with Pellaeon ordering an Imperial Retreat for the remaining Imperial forces after the Death Star goes boom.

Galvatron wrote:I would make it clear that most of the Empire's governors, admirals, generals and various other top-ranking officials were invited to witness the end of the rebellion and are aboard the Death Star when it explodes.

That would involve bringing in a lot of warships and would tip off the Rebels. Besides they got jobs to do elsewhere.

Zor

Zor wrote:

Galvatron wrote:I would make it clear that most of the Empire's governors, admirals, generals and various other top-ranking officials were invited to witness the end of the rebellion and are aboard the Death Star when it explodes.

That would involve bringing in a lot of warships and would tip off the Rebels. Besides they got jobs to do elsewhere.

I didn't say they would bring their ships with them. They could have all arrived along with the Emperor on board the Executor.

The main improvements I would make would be to the first 30 minutes. The whole plan to rescue Han makes very little sense and is largely based on pure luck. I would rewrite it to involve the rebels using some kind of Ocean's 11-style heist - possibly masterminded by Lando as part of his redemption for allowing him to be captured in the first place. There should still be room for Luke to showcase some of his new jedi skills, though.

I don't mind the Ewoks - the theme of the Empire being defeated by beings that were seen as beneath their notice is a good one. Perhaps they didn't need to be so overtly cute looking but you don't need to change very much here.

I don't see any point making changes to Vader's relationship to Luke/Padme. It doesn't add anything and can only serve to over-complicate.

On the other hand - making Luke and Leia siblings has always seemed a cheap way to retroactively remove an inconvenient love triangle that Lucas didn't know what to do with. I don't see a problem with Han getting the girl and Luke committing himself to a life as a Jedi knight.

Galvatron wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:

Galvatron wrote: But, by all means, let's turn this into a debate about how rape is what makes Vader irredeemable, but not the mass murder of children.

That's not an argument I'm making but It would certainly make him less attached to Luke and vice versa.

And I still think that's a dumb assertion. Children are conceived accidentally or without the father's knowledge all the time, but those fathers end up with feelings of attachment to their child anyway. Go figure.

Regardless, I always thought Vader's affection for Luke was a gradual development anyway. In fact, I don't think it really clicked until he saw his son being slowly electrocuted to death that he realized he loved his son and made his fateful choice.

Well I agree with your general point about accidental children. But it seems far fetched in the case of the scenario. With the lack of attachment to the other and the 16 year gap.

As to your second. Yeah, I though that was the point too. He's clearly torn throughout RotJ, but it's cloaked in 'we can take power togther'. It actually could work, Vader was only bringing the connection up at first to sway Luke (who probably has daddy issues) to gain Luke's power to his cause but then realises the connections getting to him too.

I've figured why the mind-trick specifically bothers me so much. It's not so much 'more evil' than child murder but it is a heck of lot more malevolent and pointless evil than the murder was in Ep III. In Ep III the mass murder is presented as 'i must do this terrible thing to save Padme' (though he leaps to it very quickly it must be said) whereas the mind-trick seems dark for darkness sake. I guess you could spin it as part of the selfish nature of his fall the the darkside. But again it feel like it would sully Luke thematically to have him born from a darkside act. There's no reason a hero can't come from anywhere of course.

I don't agree but then I don't have to it's 'your' remake after all. Thank you for discussing/

Crazedwraith wrote:

Galvatron wrote:In my version, Darth Vader is still a fallen Jedi, which means he started out as a good guy and a hero before being seduced by the dark side of the Force.

Other than remove the need for Obi-Wan's certain point of view speech. Why do you think this improves upon the original?

Because I think it would also result in a better prequel trilogy. It would both spare us the nauseating romance and I think the Anakin/Ben/Darth dynamic would be more interesting to see.

Without getting into too much detail, my Episode 1 would be about Darth and Anakin working together to rescue Obi-Wan from the bad guys.[/quote]

For myself if I had the option of redoing the prequels. I'd go for 'less nauseating romance' over 'mind control sex' but there you go.

I thought calling it a "Sith mind trick" made it obvious that Luke's conception would take place during or after Vader's fall.

Galvatron wrote:I thought "Sith mind trick" made it obvious that Luke's conception would take place during or after Vader's fall.

Oh yes indeed.

Of course, there's no such thing but hey it's your films.

Crazedwraith wrote:I guess you could spin it as part of the selfish nature of his fall the the darkside. But again it feel like it would sully Luke thematically to have him born from a darkside act. There's no reason a hero can't come from anywhere of course.

Just to clarify: this is why I referenced Uther and Igraine in Excalibur. King Arthur was conceived in virtually the same way as how my version of Luke was.