How would you do ROTJ differently?

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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Indeed.

That's why I invented the concept of a Sith mind trick. It's a more intrusive version of the Jedi mind trick and requires drawing upon the dark side of the Force to use. Like Force lightning or Kylo Ren's mind probe.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Darth Yan »

I still think Palpatine should be a sith; Vader flat out FEARS him at times
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Maybe the thread title should be modified to "How would you do ROTJ differently without actually making any significant changes?"
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Darth Yan »

Galvy don't be a douche. The idea is fine in many ways; you're bitter that Vader didn't turn out the way YOU wanted. Change the Death Star, make the rescue better.......but the Vader and Anakin two separate people is stupid as shit
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

I'm being the douche? I'm not the one trolling the thread and making zero contributions to the OP's question. All you're doing is shooting down everyone else's ideas in defense of a movie that will never get changed anyway so kindly go fuck yourself if you think my ideas are "stupid as shit."

Asshole.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Darth Yan »

I proposed a change to the ROTJ plot (Yoda and Obi Wan don't do the "point of view" crap and instead admit it was a combination of fear and shame that led them to lie, thereby establishing them as flawed characters.)
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

I stand corrected: instead of zero contributions you gave us a negligible one. :roll:

At least I had the courtesy to ignore your idea instead of shitting on it. Twice.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Gandalf »

Darth Yan wrote:I think Palpatine being a wizard makes sense. You need to have someone for Vader to turn away from.
Palpatine made him one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, with command of the Imperial Machine. As a space wizard, there's only so much a guy in an iron lung can do in a galaxy of countless individuals. But working for Palpatine, he has ships, soldiers, and all sorts of ways to exert his will. Turning on Palpatine means losing all of that, being cast out of the inner circle. If Vader doesn't have the command of these forces, someone else will, and will they do as good of a job as Vader, or will they undo all of his work in bringing order to the chaotic and war torn galaxy.
Galvatron wrote:I was referring to Gandalf the poster, not the character. :lol:
If I ever wrote a letter to my sixteen year old self, I'd tell him to pick a different username. :P
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Gandalf wrote:Palpatine made him one of the most powerful people in the galaxy, with command of the Imperial Machine. As a space wizard, there's only so much a guy in an iron lung can do in a galaxy of countless individuals. But working for Palpatine, he has ships, soldiers, and all sorts of ways to exert his will.
The Vader comic series showed us what happened when he fell out of favor after the Battle of Yavin: he was leashed to Grand General Tagge and had to resort to scrounging up his own paltry resources simply to thwart a rival's attempts at replacing him.
Gandalf wrote:Turning on Palpatine means losing all of that, being cast out of the inner circle. If Vader doesn't have the command of these forces, someone else will, and will they do as good of a job as Vader, or will they undo all of his work in bringing order to the chaotic and war torn galaxy.
Not to mention that he'd probably rise to the top of the Empire's "most wanted" list on day one. While I'm sure he'd survive just fine for quite a while, merely existing as a fugitive is probably not Vader's preferred lifestyle. I imagine that's why he'd rather usurp the throne.
Gandalf wrote:If I ever wrote a letter to my sixteen year old self, I'd tell him to pick a different username. :P
Look who you're talking to. :lol:
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Gandalf »

Galvatron wrote:The Vader comic series showed us what happened when he fell out of favor after the Battle of Yavin: he was leashed to Grand General Tagge and had to resort to scrounging up his own paltry resources simply to thwart a rival's attempts at replacing him.
That sounds neat as an idea. In the new EU, is Vader just the universal lackey?
Galvatron wrote:Not to mention that he'd probably rise to the top of the Empire's "most wanted" list on day one. While I'm sure he'd survive just fine for quite a while, merely existing as a fugitive is probably not Vader's preferred lifestyle. I imagine that's why he'd rather usurp the throne.
That's certainly true. He'd have to go and live like Yoda, which I imagine isn't easy in that iron lung suit. Overall it's like a galaxy spanning mafiocracy, where it's not so much about killing the Godfather, but about being able to win the support of the other powerful guys directly under him.

Now I'm just picturing ROTJ ending like Casino. Instead of the final victory being in a big battle, the Rebellion forces the Imperial inner circle to turn on themselves, killing each other, going to trial or dying in seclusion. Let me make this film six hours long, and that's the ending. :P
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Darth Yan »

Galvatron wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Galvatron wrote: But, by all means, let's turn this into a debate about how rape is what makes Vader irredeemable, but not the mass murder of children. :roll:
That's not an argument I'm making but It would certainly make him less attached to Luke and vice versa.
And I still think that's a dumb assertion. Children are conceived accidentally or without the father's knowledge all the time, but those fathers end up with feelings of attachment to their child anyway. Go figure.

Regardless, I always thought Vader's affection for Luke was a gradual development anyway. In fact, I don't think it really clicked until he saw his son being slowly electrocuted to death that he realized he loved his son and made his fateful choice.
Crazedwraith wrote:
Galvatron wrote:In my version, Darth Vader is still a fallen Jedi, which means he started out as a good guy and a hero before being seduced by the dark side of the Force.
Other than remove the need for Obi-Wan's certain point of view speech. Why do you think this improves upon the original?
Because I think it would also result in a better prequel trilogy. It would both spare us the nauseating romance and I think the Anakin/Ben/Darth dynamic would be more interesting to see.

Without getting into too much detail, my Episode 1 would be about Darth and Anakin working together to rescue Obi-Wan from the bad guys.
The Romulan Republic wrote:It just comes off as adding rape for the sake of rape, frankly. Or rape for the sake of lame plot twist and gratuitous grimdark, which is only a little better.
It wouldn't show the rape, for fuck's sake. Just like ANH didn't show Vader torturing Leia.

And it doesn't undo the twist either. Vader is still revealed to be Luke's father. The only difference is that Vader and Luke's assumed father are different people.
The issue is that it undoes the fact that obi wan and yoda were flawed. Having it be "oh obi wan was mistaken" is just really lame and weak. It seems more like an attempt to avoid ambiguity. Having anakin the golden boy be Vader is a genuine shock

I'd get rid of the Death Star, have the imperial palace be the final showdown location and have Vader defenestrate palpy.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

I'm beginning to sense that you don't approve of my changes, but I wish you'd come right out just tell me so. I'm not good at taking hints.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Elfdart »

streetad wrote:The main improvements I would make would be to the first 30 minutes. The whole plan to rescue Han makes very little sense and is largely based on pure luck. I would rewrite it to involve the rebels using some kind of Ocean's 11-style heist - possibly masterminded by Lando as part of his redemption for allowing him to be captured in the first place. There should still be room for Luke to showcase some of his new jedi skills, though.

I don't mind the Ewoks - the theme of the Empire being defeated by beings that were seen as beneath their notice is a good one. Perhaps they didn't need to be so overtly cute looking but you don't need to change very much here.

I don't see any point making changes to Vader's relationship to Luke/Padme. It doesn't add anything and can only serve to over-complicate.

On the other hand - making Luke and Leia siblings has always seemed a cheap way to retroactively remove an inconvenient love triangle that Lucas didn't know what to do with. I don't see a problem with Han getting the girl and Luke committing himself to a life as a Jedi knight.
We have a winner!

In order:

1) The plan to rescue Han makes no sense whatsoever. Boba Fett doesn't recognize Lando when they're maybe ten feet apart because Lando is wearing a hat. :wtf:

When they introduced Lando for TESB, they made a big deal about what an important character he was going to be. In ROTJ he was Wedge +1. I thought it would have been cool to have him make amends by not only rescuing Han, but by convincing outlaws, smugglers, gangsters, etc to join the Rebellion, since the Empire was now muscling in on crooks as well as decent folk. Since we're trying to keep the movie at a little over two hours, we can combine Han's rescue with Lando's pitch to the outlaws in one scene: Lando explains what the Empire did to Bespin, what they'll do others who buck the system, and that the only option left is armed resistance. Jabba balks, tries to kill them (or threatens to hand them all over to the Empire) and is promptly killed by his own henchmen. The Rebellion has now recruited a fleet of privateers.

I wanted some kind of real reconciliation between Han and Lando, and I got thirty minutes of shitty muppets.

2) I thought the little bat-like creature at Mos Eisely (the one that chirps and stands on its tip-toes to get its drink at the bar) would have been better as the template for the Ewoks. It's still kinda cute, but in a grotesque way. Oh, and they have excellent night vision and raid the stormtroopers in the dark...

3) Vader was always Luke's father in one way or another. Don't let paranoid schmucks who have never heard of the creative process tell you otherwise.

4) After our heroes make a daring escape through a squadron of Imperial ships sent to follow them to Tattooine, Luke and Leia would go to Dagobah and Luke would hear the bitter truth, and Leia would find out that she was the Other Yoda was talking about. Yoda dies. Luke & Leia rejoin the others with the fleet.

5) The space battle would be expanded to include maneuvers that make some kind of logical sense. Those privateers play a major role in breaking the Imperial Fleet's line, allowing the Rebels to maneuver so that the Death Star ends up blowing away one of its own ships. The Imperial staff starts getting nervous...

Palpatine gets bodyslammed, Vader dies, Death Star 2 goes boom and so on and so forth.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

One counterpoint I would make is that Luke "committing himself himself to a life as a Jedi knight" does not and should not mean that he must do so instead of pursuing a romantic/sexual relationship. The notion that personal attachment is wrong is a fixation of the Prequel Jedi more than the OT Jedi, and in fact their is a thematic progression through the films, when viewed chronologically, which shows the Jedi moving away from this philosophy, and being stronger for it.

We start out with a detached Order that is unable to address Anakin's needs, and arguably falls, in part, because of it. During RotS, however, we see Yoda begin to admit that this philosophy was in error (a subtle moment I like very much is him telling the Wookies he will miss them, as I take it as a subtle acknowledgement that he himself has emotional attachments), and the Jedi allowing Luke and Leia to be raised by families. This leads to Luke refusing to kill Vader out of love for his father, which ultimately keeps him from falling himself and redeems Vader, achieving what the entire old Jedi Order could not- the destruction of the Sith.

TFA could be seen as going against that with Ben/Kylo, but I don't think so. Its him being sent away from his parents to train that seemed to precipitate his fall, in part, and Luke's self-isolation is portrayed negatively, while it is Finn's attachment to Rey that ultimately inspires him to stand and fight against the First Order rather than just running from them.

Having Luke fall in love would fit very well with the progression of the Jedi Order through the films.

That said, I have no problem at all with Leia being with Han instead of Luke, and not just because its canon. Not having the male and female lead end up screwing is one of the ways in which RotJ is a refreshingly original ending for a Holywood action film.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Ender »

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Ring theory"?

Anyway, yeah, RotJ isn't a bad film as is, by any means.
http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/

There is a LOT here, but in brief:
Because here’s the thing: The “intertextual patternings,” while critical to reading the films the way Lucas intended, are actually small pieces of a much larger, more complex puzzle. And while many have unknowingly stumbled upon some of the pieces over the years, no one has discovered the underlying pattern and discussed how all of the pieces fit together and what the completed picture looks like (and possibly represents)—until now.

And it starts with a little-known ancient literary form that scholars have identified as “ring composition.”

From millennia-old Chinese writings to the epic poetry of Homer to the Bible, ring composition is a structure commonly found in ancient texts all over the globe—transcending time, culture, and geography. Social anthropologist Mary Douglas explains the technique in her book Thinking in Circles: An Essay on Ring Composition. And for starters, she writes that the form “comes in many sizes, from a few lines to a whole book.” 16

In its simplest and most popular form, it is know as “chiasmus”—a figure a speech in which key words or phrases are repeated in two successive clauses or sentences, but in reverse order. For example, John F. Kennedy’s famous line, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” The second clause is a reversal of the first. So, the words are arranged in an ABB’A’ fashion: country(A) you(B) you(B’) country(A’). 17

A ring composition, according to Douglas, is essentially a “large-scale, blown-up version of the same structure.” 18 (It’s also commonly referred to as “chiastic structure” or “inverted parallelism.”)

Here’s how it works:

The story is organized into a sequence of elements that progress from a beginning to a well-marked midpoint. Then, the ring turns and the first sequence of elements is repeated in reverse order until the story returns to the starting point.

That means the first and last elements correspond to each other, the second and second-to-last elements correspond to each other, the third and third-to-last elements correspond to each other, and so on, creating a sort of circle or mirror image. If we assign letters to each element, the pattern is ABC C’B’A’ (similar to the JFK example above).

The correspondences between matching elements (or sections) are usually signaled by clusters of key words that appear in both items of a pair. They often indicate thematic links between the sections 19 so “one section has to be read in connection with another that is parallel because it covers similar or antithetical situations.” 20 It’s similar to the way the rhyme scheme of a poem works, but instead of rhyming sounds, the author parallels and contrasts ideas.

So, by now you’re probably wondering what any of this has to do with Star Wars?

Well, as this essay will show, the six Star Wars films together form a highly structured ring composition. The scheme is so carefully worked out by Lucas, so intricately organized, that it unifies the films with a common universal structure (or what film scholar David Bordwell might call a “new formal strategy”), creating a sense of overall balance and symmetry.

At the same time, Lucas’s use of this ancient form revises our readings of the films and the saga as a whole, and opens up new ways of thinking about Star Wars. It also allows us to gain a much greater understanding and appreciation for the films, and gives us a deeper sense of the magnitude of Lucas’s accomplishment.

Because contrary to Stoklasa’s claims that the prequels show a “lack of vision or originality” on the part of Lucas, the ring composition reveals quite the opposite. Lucas’s vision is almost startlingly ambitious and, to my knowledge, unlike anything that’s ever been attempted before in the history of cinema (proving once again that the six Star Wars films deserve far more serious critical attention than they’ve received). The word “brilliant” is often overused when discussing movies, but this is one occasion when it’s truly warranted.
I don't fully buy that Lucas set out to do this... but on the other hand there is enough stuff there supporting it that is would be a hell of a thing for it to all be chance. And "filmmaker gets way out over his skis going for some high concept art effect making the film(s) bad because the audience lacks the context or because the structure places constraints on the story they couldn't overcome" has become a defining hallmark of his generation of filmmakers (yeah, looking right at you Ridley Scott)

Also if you are giving me free reign to redo the films as I see fit, fuck it, even if this wasn't the plan originally, I want to make it the plan now.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Elfdart wrote:Since we're trying to keep the movie at a little over two hours, we can combine Han's rescue with Lando's pitch to the outlaws in one scene: Lando explains what the Empire did to Bespin, what they'll do others who buck the system, and that the only option left is armed resistance. Jabba balks, tries to kill them (or threatens to hand them all over to the Empire) and is promptly killed by his own henchmen. The Rebellion has now recruited a fleet of privateers.
I... actually like this.

In this scenario, does Boba Fett try to help Jabba or does Lando's pitch sway him too?
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Khaat »

Well, without Jedi to hate (and presuming Jabba has already paid), Fett watches, listens, then figures out who will pay better.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Elfdart »

Galvatron wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Since we're trying to keep the movie at a little over two hours, we can combine Han's rescue with Lando's pitch to the outlaws in one scene: Lando explains what the Empire did to Bespin, what they'll do others who buck the system, and that the only option left is armed resistance. Jabba balks, tries to kill them (or threatens to hand them all over to the Empire) and is promptly killed by his own henchmen. The Rebellion has now recruited a fleet of privateers.
I... actually like this.

In this scenario, does Boba Fett try to help Jabba or does Lando's pitch sway him too?
Wouldn't matter to me either way. Boba Fett is a glorified extra.

One thing that annoys the piss out of me is that the EU has Lando, Chewie and the others show up a YEAR after they depart from the rebel cruiser to find Han when they already know Boba Fett is going to Tattooine to collect on Jabba's contract. The movie gave me the impression that they were going after Han as soon as they could, not dicking around with some retarded lizard creature who wants to poke Leia. Flush that shit!
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Once again, we agree. In fact, I wouldn't have minded they'd simply rescued Han from Boba Fett while he was making the delivery to Jabba. I didn't need to see a bunch of muppets do a musical number first.

It'd be interesting to me if they'd taken Boba Fett prisoner and made him a part of their plan to infiltrate the shield generator base. Perhaps under the pretense of delivering a captive Luke to Vader while the commando team hid somewhere else aboard the Slave 1.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

To the first point: Jabba had to be dealt with, so that threat would no longer be hanging over Han's head.

To the second: How could they trust Fett, who they'd just captured, not to backstab them on such a crucial mission?
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

Han could offer to pay Jabba triple if he'll call off the bounty. I'd simply write Jabba as more of a greedy pragmatist and have him accept Han's terms. At gunpoint, if necessary.

As for Fett, they give him a choice too: If he sells them out, he dies first. If he plays along and survives, he gets paid for his time and they let him go. They could even strap a bomb to him and hold onto a remote detonator as insurance.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Darth Yan »

Elfdart wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
Elfdart wrote:Since we're trying to keep the movie at a little over two hours, we can combine Han's rescue with Lando's pitch to the outlaws in one scene: Lando explains what the Empire did to Bespin, what they'll do others who buck the system, and that the only option left is armed resistance. Jabba balks, tries to kill them (or threatens to hand them all over to the Empire) and is promptly killed by his own henchmen. The Rebellion has now recruited a fleet of privateers.
I... actually like this.

In this scenario, does Boba Fett try to help Jabba or does Lando's pitch sway him too?
Wouldn't matter to me either way. Boba Fett is a glorified extra.

One thing that annoys the piss out of me is that the EU has Lando, Chewie and the others show up a YEAR after they depart from the rebel cruiser to find Han when they already know Boba Fett is going to Tattooine to collect on Jabba's contract. The movie gave me the impression that they were going after Han as soon as they could, not dicking around with some retarded lizard creature who wants to poke Leia. Flush that shit!
In fairness they actually DO try to get Han while Boba's transporting it. Thing's don't work out. So they kinda DID do it as soon as they could
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Elheru Aran »

I always rationalized the delay as being something along the lines of, well, if Lando is going to infiltrate Jabba's palace, that's not exactly something you just waltz in and do overnight. Meanwhile Leia is still a high ranking member of the Rebel Alliance, surely she had to put personal concerns aside and take care of a couple missions in the meantime. Luke has to build a new lightsaber and maybe practice his backflips a few more times... honestly I never got the impression that there was more than a year, max, before they rescued Han, more likely half a year or so. They simply don't say how long it took.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Galvatron »

The ending of TESB sure made it sound to me like they weren't going to spend any time dicking around with other stuff.
Lando Calrissian: Luke, we're ready for take off.
Luke: Good luck, Lando.
Lando: When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you.
Luke: I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine.
Lando: [to Leia] Princess, we'll find Han. I promise.
Luke: Chewie, I'll be waiting for your signal. Take care you two and may the Force be with you.
Of course, the old EU was pretty much forced by sheer necessity to kill time between the release of both movies with filler adventures. Luckily, OP said we can ignore the EU (especially Shadows of the Empire) so there's really no reason why my ROTJ can't take place soon after TESB.
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Re: How would you do ROTJ differently?

Post by Crazedwraith »

Galvatron wrote:Lando: When we find Jabba the Hutt and that bounty hunter, we'll contact you.
Luke: I'll meet you at the rendezvous point on Tatooine.
To me that sounds like there could be some delay. They were going after Jabba and Fett and it's implied it's a search and they don't know where they are. Likewise RotJ doesn't have to start and Tatoonie was a rendezvous, not necessarily Jabba's base of operations.

They don't necessarily 'dick around with other stuff' that I recall in Shadows Of The Empire, at least not intentionally. they're going after Han and get sidetracked.
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