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Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:21am
by ray245
With most of the old Clone Wars EU becoming legends, the only thing left canon is the Clone Wars cartoon. I'm wondering if anyone is happy with how the show depict an intergalactic war in SW?
Battles seem to last for mere hours, the entire planet could be invaded and conquered within days. Jedi seems to have no consistent role despite having the responsibilities to lead armies, going on all sort of side-missions. Armies in Clone Wars are tiny by our real life standards, with the 3 million Clone war being basically canon.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:42am
by The Romulan Republic
Um... on what do you base the claim that three million clones is "basically canon" in The Clone Wars? I thought one of the main things about The Clone Wars was that it contradicted Travis's take on the clones.
And frankly... I don't know what the current official numbers are for the number of worlds in the galaxy, but its tens of thousands at least as per Attack of the Clones. If you had even ten thousand worlds, and an average of a thousand soldiers per world (minuscule by real world standards), you'd still have ten million clones right their.
Also, aren't their new novels in that period coming out now? Like the new Ashoka novel?
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:53am
by ray245
The Romulan Republic wrote:Um... on what do you base the claim that three million clones is "basically canon" in The Clone Wars? I thought one of the main things about The Clone Wars was that it contradicted Travis's take on the clones.
Then they give us a scene where 2 million additional new clone troopers is a big deal for the Republic.
And frankly... I don't know what the current official numbers are for the number of worlds in the galaxy, but its tens of thousands at least as per Attack of the Clones. If you had even ten thousand worlds, and an average of a thousand soldiers per world (minuscule by real world standards), you'd still have ten million clones right their.
Except we have the Clones being constantly redeployed, with a single Venator being an entire planet's invasion force most of the time.
Also, aren't their new novels in that period coming out now? Like the new Ashoka novel?
Nope, we have no more Clone Wars era stuff. Everything else is focused on the OT era or later.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:59am
by The Romulan Republic
ray245 wrote:Then they give us a scene where 2 million additional new clone troopers is a big deal for the Republic.
Which episode?
In any case, two million new troops could be a big deal if you had just enough troops to hold the line, and then you got two million more at a critical time and place.
Except we have the Clones being constantly redeployed, with a single Venator being an entire planet's invasion force most of the time.
Say what?
I remember the Ryloth arc from season one- invasion fleet was three Venators, followed up by multiple Acclamators.
I seem to recall a similar situation from the discussion thread on season two, with the invasion of Geonosis.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 06:24am
by The Romulan Republic
Actually, my recollection of the show is that Venators often operated in trios- three ships seems to have been the Republic's standard for a squadron of cruisers in the Clone Wars.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 07:09am
by Mange
The Romulan Republic wrote:ray245 wrote:Then they give us a scene where 2 million additional new clone troopers is a big deal for the Republic.
Which episode?
It was the second season episode "Senate Murders", but ray245 is wrong: It wasn't two million, but five million additional clones.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 07:41am
by Galvatron
I always imagined that the clones served in a mainly offensive capacity as a roving expeditionary force while the existing planetary defense forces of the Republic's constituent worlds provided the bulk of the manpower in repelling separatist incursions in their home systems (albeit reinforced by clonetroopers as they became available). If deployed wisely, five millions fresh new troops could make a big difference.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 10:06am
by The Romulan Republic
That makes a degree of sense.
Their's also the fact that, quite simply, having huge troop counts probably doesn't matter much to the average audience member, or writer, or executive. At the end of the day, quality writing is about plot and themes and characters, and while realism is an important part of that, having huge troop counts isn't a very big part of that, outside of vs. debates and such.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 11:32am
by Galvatron
As the war progressed, I'd also imagine that widespread enlistment of non-clones in the Grand Army allowed the Republic to reassign their clone troopers from technical or logistical roles to actual combat duties. That may have reduced the strain on Kamino's clone production as well.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 11:57am
by Lord Revan
Not mention that taking the primary worlds of the CIS would reduce the replacement rates of droid army, so a small amount of clones on the right target could make major difference, specially since it seems that in a per soldier basis a clone is superior to a standard battledroid. Also things like a Umbara arc don't seem to cripple the Grand Army of the Republic like it would if there was just a handfull of clones in total.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 12:12pm
by Galvatron
If they were captured intact, the Republic could have repurposed separatist factories to manufacture non-combat droids of their own and free up even more clones to fight.
Too bad they didn't have a Star Forge like Revan did, eh?
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 01:09pm
by Ender
I mean I wanted to see The Battle of the Somme redone shot for shot with clones and droids, but for some reason Disney isn't onboard with forcing 6 year olds to watch one of the most traumatic films ever made...
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 01:12pm
by Galvatron
Would it really be so traumatic if it was just cartoon droids and clones going pew-pew at each other?
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 02:40pm
by Knife
Actually yes, yes I am happy with how they showed the clone wars. Was it perfect? No, but they tried and it was expanded in meaningful ways. They did a good job of showing the Republic, the Separatists, and the small cadre of folks who were part of both and playing them against the middle. They showed large scale battles with some serious grim dark (second invasion of Geonosis comes to mind), showed individual soldiers stories in multiple ways (clones turned traitor, a deserter who made a life and family on a world, recruits trying to prove themselves), gave good back ground on characters such as Cody, and expanded what we know of the Jedi Order.
They took Venators and Acclamators in pretty ship porn fights. Made a combat Republic diplomatic cruiser, introduced the light cruiser and Pelta transport. Various clone trooper armors and guns. They expanded the ships and troops of the movies. They showed actual biological bad guys of the Separtists from Admiral Trench, Lok Durd, and a handful of aqualish seen but not named.
They showed the effect of the war not only on citizens but on the jedi. They showed how the Jedi always in combat changed, the view the public held on the jedi as peace keepers and now generals in a war. They showed how Anakin became attached to his troops, his padawan, and his friends and took increasingly reckless acts to protect them and do more and more gray or dark things to win the day. This was important to me since Anakin's fall in the movies was really quick, this helps fill it out for me.
They showed Madalorians in such a way as to be believable and not the wank in certain books. They consolidated a lot of old EU into a plausible thing including Concord Dawn.
Were their problems? Sure. While they made constant remarks about how thinly spread the GAR was, you're right in that 3-10 ships for invade this or break the blockade there is a bit silly. Did the fact that they didn't have enough troops seem dumb when every tom, dick, and harry on a Venator was a clone but not necessarily a trooper? Sure. I think they missed a chance to show the Republic slowly getting up to a military footing with recruits from member worlds while leaning heavily on the GAR to get there. The Jedi knowing and the Clones slowly seeing they are going to be obsolete and outdated as more and more 'normal troops' come on line would have been an interesting theme. The clones loyaly serving even though they see their place being surpassed would have given more motivation to some of the off stories with the troopers as well as make Order 66 much more tragic.
I thought resurrecting Maul was meh, but some of the story lines with him, plus his contribution in Rebel's was really well done. Maul v Sidious was very well done.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:09pm
by Ender
Galvatron wrote:Would it really be so traumatic if it was just cartoon droids and clones going pew-pew at each other?
I thought the present consensus among researchers was that abstracted violence had more negative effects than hyperrealistic violence
Either way, still one of the most horrifying films of all time
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 05:13pm
by Ender
Knife wrote:
I thought resurrecting Maul was meh, but some of the story lines with him, plus his contribution in Rebel's was really well done. Maul v Sidious was very well done.
This I very much agree with. Resurrecting Maul was dumb, and they clearly did it just to sell toys/"hey remember this guy?". Narratively, there is nothing with this storyline that it requires it to be Maul as opposed to any other character that uses the dark side and has reason to hate Kenobi. They should have left him dead and created someone new.
That said the story line for it has been one of the single best stories told in SW and the single most exciting thing for me this season is its conclusion
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 07:50pm
by Lord Insanity
I really liked Clone Wars. I consider it everything the prequels should have been in the first place. If you only ever watch one episode make it the season 2 episode "Landing at Point Rain."
Knife wrote:
Were their problems? Sure. While they made constant remarks about how thinly spread the GAR was, you're right in that 3-10 ships for invade this or break the blockade there is a bit silly. Did the fact that they didn't have enough troops seem dumb when every tom, dick, and harry on a Venator was a clone but not necessarily a trooper? Sure. I think they missed a chance to show the Republic slowly getting up to a military footing with recruits from member worlds while leaning heavily on the GAR to get there. The Jedi knowing and the Clones slowly seeing they are going to be obsolete and outdated as more and more 'normal troops' come on line would have been an interesting theme. The clones loyaly serving even though they see their place being surpassed would have given more motivation to some of the off stories with the troopers as well as make Order 66 much more tragic.
I wonder if they were going to start doing that considering season 5 had a young Tarkin showing up. Clone Wars being cancelled is probably the worst thing that happened with the Disney take over. At least they gave us the lost missions (the episodes of season 6 they had already started on) and let Dave Filoni tie up any loose ends on Rebels that make sense to do so in that era.
Knife wrote:
I thought resurrecting Maul was meh, but some of the story lines with him, plus his contribution in Rebel's was really well done. Maul v Sidious was very well done.
While I understand why some didn't like that idea the execution of said idea was really well done. Not to mention ridiculously dark for a kids cartoon. I thought it was awesome. The new canon Darth Maul comic based on what would have been a season 6 Clone Wars episode was really good too.
Now I have to stop reading this thread as I sense Rebels season 3 spoilers approaching.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-22 08:20pm
by Knife
Only watched the first few episodes of season 3. Dont have cable so can't watch it unless it' s streamed somewhere else. Shame, Disney is missing a huge audience out there.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-23 12:39pm
by Elheru Aran
IMO the 'few ships attacking entire planet' thing can be rationalized to a certain degree. We're in an era where one-world governments are the norm. It's quite likely that it's possible to simply take the planetary capital and that's it for the fight-- the planetary military gives up because they don't have any government to give them orders.
So the Separatists move in and take the capital of Christophsis or Ryloth or whatever, leave a droid army and a garrison, and consider that a good day's work. The Republic doesn't have to do much more other than take the capital back and mop up the droid armies wherever they are. It's not a matter of invading an entire planet, it's just a matter of invading or investing a specific geographical location on said planet. Even the Separatists don't have the droid-power to scatter armies across entire planets.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-23 02:38pm
by The Romulan Republic
That and once you take out the planetary shields (or if the world doesn't have them), any concentrations of enemy forces in the open are basically target practice, so any resistance may be largely limited to insurgency-type stuff, and hoping the enemy isn't ruthless enough to glass the planet.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-23 02:50pm
by Galvatron
Does this mean Karen Traviss could have been right?
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-23 02:56pm
by Elheru Aran
Galvatron wrote:Does this mean Karen Traviss could have been right?
About three million clones? No, because she's a dumbass.
About the Clone Wars not being *superfuckoffhuge*? Maybe. I mean, I don't think I ever heard anybody throw around numbers in the billions...
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-26 07:50pm
by FedRebel
Knife wrote:While they made constant remarks about how thinly spread the GAR was, you're right in that 3-10 ships for invade this or break the blockade there is a bit silly.
My thought on that is that the Republic fielded dedicated warships, much of the Separatist fleet were converted freighters.
It did seem that the Separatists operated at a numerical advantage, but if they used thinly skinned freighters with weapon hardpoints bolted on after the fact, 3-10 Heavily armored and armed dedicated warships should tear the numerically superior Separatist force to shreds
Fanon aspect, the scenario could be how the Imperator class came into being. The Republic wanted a single ship to do what three Venators have been doing, such a vessel in a 1-1 replacement ratio would triple fleet deployment options and effectiveness.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-26 10:39pm
by RogueIce
FedRebel wrote:It did seem that the Separatists operated at a numerical advantage, but if they used thinly skinned freighters with weapon hardpoints bolted on after the fact, 3-10 Heavily armored and armed dedicated warships should tear the numerically superior Separatist force to shreds
It kind of went back and forth depending on the plot. Sometimes they were really good against Sep ships, sometimes they were evenly matched, other times they went down like chumps.
Re: Are you happy with TCW in depicting a full scale war in Star Wars?
Posted: 2017-01-26 11:06pm
by Adam Reynolds
RogueIce wrote:FedRebel wrote:It did seem that the Separatists operated at a numerical advantage, but if they used thinly skinned freighters with weapon hardpoints bolted on after the fact, 3-10 Heavily armored and armed dedicated warships should tear the numerically superior Separatist force to shreds
It kind of went back and forth depending on the plot. Sometimes they were really good against Sep ships, sometimes they were evenly matched, other times they went down like chumps.
Though that actually fit well with a bit from the ICS books. It stated that the Mandator class(the CIS frigate that was probably their main vessel in the series) had a main weapon that had to be charged up to be fully effective. So when the CIS was fully prepared they could be extremely effective, but were otherwise rather vulnerable.
Though I would say that both sides used ships that were often glass cannons. The Venator was a carrier first and was covered in launch bays that made it reliant upon shields rather than armor, while the CIS vessels were all converted transports of various types.
Anyway, as for my answer, I would say more or less yes. Overalll the series was as good or better than most of the Legends EU. There are a few gems that it failed to replicate like Labyrinth of Evil, but it was otherwise mostly fine.