RIP Carrie Fisher

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K. A. Pital
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by K. A. Pital »

Say it like it is: the visions did not just "feel weak", they were weak.

They were weak and that's why they shouldn't have come.

In the OT, Luke only hears the voice of Obi Wan in the trench, but he does not have visions. Later, with Yoda, he has visions, but they are never explicitly shown on-screen. Makes for a more powerful vision, I think.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Overt? No. Not unless you count that weird vision at Maz's castle (which I took to be more outside influence on her, either a location that was strong in the Force or just the will of the Force).

She displayed basically the same latent Force abilities young Anakin did in Phantom Menace, and that young Luke did in A New Hope (albeit perhaps to a lesser extent)- good with machines, skilled pilot, good marksmanship.

The fact that her Force abilities manifested in those specific ways I take as another possible hint of Skywalker heritage.
That's what I'm getting at. After Ren mindraped her, suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and telekinesis. Either she managed to yank the knowledge from him (which could make for interesting narrative directions in movie 2) or he unlocked some training she didn't remember getting while digging around.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Their's that possibility, but as I've said before, I think there's a psychological affect as well-

I think she was able to beat him in a mental contest without much training or experience because it was more a straight contest of wills than knowing specific techniques, and Kylo Ren is a mentally weaker person.

And once she had beat him, she would have greater confidence in her abilities, while Ren would have less in his.

And that matters for Force users. Remember Luke and Yoda on Dagobah:

Luke: "I don't believe it."

Yoda: "That is why you fail."

Believing you can do something with the Force is very important to actually being able to do it.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Adam Reynolds wrote:Her arc is about abandoning the hope that someone will come for her on Jakku, not that she should give up on being reunited with a connection to her family, which is presumably Luke.
If that's how you define her character arc- I can meet family at Ach-To (or whatever it is) instead of Jakku- well that's some piss poor character development.
Maz Katana directly stated to Rey that whoever was going to come for her on Jakku could no longer do so, but that Luke still could. That indicates that he is the last remaining connection to her family in one way or another.
She says the belonging Rey seeks is ahead of her. For all we know that could mean belonging to the New Jedi Order or the Resistance.
If he is her father, presumably he didn't know she was alive, in the same way that Vader didn't know he was alive.
I have expect that to be true just to steal more material from previous movies. But at least with Vader Luke was deliberately hidden.
Sure it does. If he has a longer term goal that has less to do with the Resistance or First Order and more to do with the Dark Side itself, then he has little reason to care for the more immediate threat.
Again, this has nothing to do with who they send to contact him. The Resistance have an agenda- to recruit Luke. Their choice of emissary will depend on their fucking motives and goals, not Lukes. They have no fucking idea what Luke's goals are until he meets them- AFTER they've sent someone to him.
Another would be padawan who is directly connected to Luke is exactly what he needs.
Another one? Like Kylo is directly connected to him? That's what he needs? Are you sure on that?
Having beleived that all of his students died is part of what drove him to exile, knowing that one is alive likely gives him hope that he can turn things around.
Wait so you think Rey is both Luke's daughter and one of his surviving students but he didn't know she was alive and she thought he was a myth?
This version of Luke is based on the Fisher King. Having Leia be the one to meet him doesn't fit that at all.
Explain to me why the opening crawl of the movie tells us Leia is desperate to find him, willing to put one of her most valuable people on it (Poe) but is suddenly willing to delegate the job to scrap peddler she met yesterday? Again, Rey can come along but jesus fuck, send someone from the Resistance who has a grasp on the situation. Not some teen who recently learned forests exist.
20 years was long enough for the original Jedi to vanish from memory. Luke is only one person, and Rey clearly didn't know who he was, which indicates that he would not totally serve as an inspiration.
20 years isn't enough, not by a long shot. Perhaps under a totalitarian regime you can make a dent but there's no way to wipe out all memory. Call it a flaw with the originals if you want, it's just not happening. But it'd be really fucking hard to wipe out the memory of Luke Skywalker in The New Republic. He's a hero and his story is going to be heard by every kid who goes to school. Might not be heard by some kid who lives in a box on a ship graveyard planet, at least not as more than myth.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Leia is the general in command of the entire Resistance. People in positions like that can't just go running off at the drop of a hat, both because they have other duties to fill and because of security concerns.
Star Wars tends to creatively ignore that whenever it wants. The "Jedi Generals" of the Clone Wars routinely run off to engage in random commando operations against targets of their choosing. Senior figures in the Rebellion (including Leia) went off to personally lead commando raids. Even at this point, Leia Organa may be the Resistance's leader, but she can't be its only leader. There are other people who are presumably competent to do the job for a brief time, while she goes off and does a job that she is arguably uniquely suited to because it involves talking to her own brother.

There are excellent reasons for Leia to go, and for Leia not to go, to find Luke. Both sets of arguments have been presented.

But I don't think we can seriously say "Leia won't go because she's needed to run the Resistance." By itself, that wouldn't be enough to stop her.
Thirdly, Chewie was sent as well, and he's an excellent choice, being an experienced commando and probably Luke's closest living friend in the Resistance after Leia herself. Likewise, the Falcon is a good choice of ship for the mission, aside from being somewhat well-known, because its small and fast enough to do the job quickly and discretely without drawing a lot of First Order attention. And given that Han had offered Rey a place on the Falcon, Chewie might well have insisted that she come along, as a way of honouring Han's last wishes. That's something I can totally see Chewie doing, and I can see Leia going along with it if Chewie put it to her in those terms.
I fully believe that Leia would have reason to want Rey along on the search for Luke.

What I doubt is that Leia herself would not participate in the search for Luke. It would make perfect sense to me if Leia came along with Rey and Chewie on the Falcon.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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FireNexus wrote:That's what I'm getting at. After Ren mindraped her, suddenly she's using Jedi mind tricks and telekinesis.
To be precise, it was after the second time. First encounter he trivially disables her, reads her thoughts and then sends her to sleep.
The Romulan Republic wrote:I think she was able to beat him in a mental contest without much training or experience because it was more a straight contest of wills than knowing specific techniques, and Kylo Ren is a mentally weaker person.

And once she had beat him, she would have greater confidence in her abilities, while Ren would have less in his.
When they next encounter each other, her restrained, a prisoner, in a location she can't even pretend to know where or how to escape her confidence should be utterly shattered. And if confidence is important, he should be downright arrogant. I can fully get behind the idea that her confidence could be up from besting him, I just don't swallow that giving his training, experience and arrogance she'd have a shot to begin with. This Ren hasn't killed his father, hasn't copped a bowcaster shot or anything else. He's just taken this girl down with utter ease. You can make a case for him (only) being weaker in the duel perhaps, but during the interrogation he should destroy her.

If he can't beat Rey with every advantage it's no wonder he couldn't beat her with a few disadvantages.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Disney Is Planning Meetings To Figure Out How To Move Star Wars Forward Without Carrie Fisher
Carrie Fisher's death shocked fans of the Star Wars franchise and many are still saddened by the development. However, now that time has passed and people are coming to terms with the reality, it appears it's time to figure out what the heck to do about the franchise. While most of Carrie Fisher's work on Star Wars: Episode VIII has been completed, there's still an entire movie left to make, and now they need to figure what to do with it.

The death of Carrie Fisher was heartbreaking, but the fact is that she was a key actress in a billion dollar movie franchise. As such, her death is also a worst case scenario for Disney and Lucasfilm. However, now that the scenario has come to pass, it appears the studios are now planning meetings in order to review options and make a plan. According to The Hollywood Reporter Colin Trevorrow, the director of Star Wars: Episode IX will be flying to Lucasfilm January 10 to take meetings with Kathleen Kennedy to go over their available options.

The good news is that they have time. The current release date set for Star Wars: Episode IX is May of 2019. We've also seen that Disney isn't afraid to shift release dates when necessary, as they did with Episode VIII and may end up doing with the Han Solo spinoff film. It's possible that could be needed, as the most obvious of the potential responses to not having Carrie Fisher is to rewrite the script of Episode IX in order to remove General Leia's scenes entirely.

There is, of course, at least one other option. As Rogue One: A Star Wars Story showed us, it is possible to make a fairly believable version of a character entirely through CGI effects. Last month's film brought Peter Cushing back from the dead and even gave us 1970s era Carrie Fisher once again. It's likely that if they make the decision to go that route there might still be some script rewriting. Depending on the planned size of Carrie Fisher's part in Star Wars: Episode IX, it might need to be reduced so that CGI is only needed to recreate a supporting character, not a major lead. Regardless of how good you thought the Rogue One CGI was, we can probably all agree it's not ready to be used in leading roles quite yet.

Of course just because they could recreate General Leia via digital effects, doesn't mean they should. A decision like that will certainly be viewed by some fans as an insult to the memory of Carrie Fisher. It's possible that just rewriting the script could be the best option, even if it complicates things more.
I expected this, but I think they'll end up having to modify Leia's role in Episode VIII to accommodate whatever they decide to do with her in Episode IX.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Pretty sure they'll edit whatever material she filmed to give her a graceful exit at the end of Episode VIII/start of IX. Hell the easy way out would be to just have the opening crawl of IX start with something like "GENERAL LEIA ORGANA has died in a surprise First Order attack, the Resistance is in turmoil" and not bother changing much of VIII.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Elheru Aran wrote:Pretty sure they'll edit whatever material she filmed to give her a graceful exit at the end of Episode VIII/start of IX. Hell the easy way out would be to just have the opening crawl of IX start with something like "GENERAL LEIA ORGANA has died in a surprise First Order attack, the Resistance is in turmoil" and not bother changing much of VIII.
Given that VIII has been filmed, IX hasn't been, and that trying to heavily edit VIII to accommodate Leia's departure would likely be awkward while recasting her or using CGI to put her in IX would likely provoke outrage, and she's too big a character for her absence to simply be hand waved or ignored, I believe that the simplest answer is probably to have her die off-screen between films, and have IX open with the aftermath of her death.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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‘Star Wars’ Won’t Digitally Resurrect Carrie Fisher In Future Films
Rest easy, “Star Wars” fans, the memory of Carrie Fisher is safe in hands of those who loved her.

After her tragic death in December, many were unsure whether Fisher’s best-remembered character, Leia Organa, would live on in future films. The actress, who originated the princess in 1977, brought Leia back to the big screen as a general in “Star Wars: The Force Awakens” in 2015. She was rumored to have a larger role in the latest trilogy’s second two films, presenting a challenge to those at the helm of the franchise.

Now, Lucasfilm is putting to rest the rumors that Fisher would be digitally recreated in future films.

“We don’t normally respond to fan or press speculation, but there is a rumor circulating that we would like to address,” Lucasfilm said in a statement posted on the Star Wars website Friday. “We want to assure our fans that Lucasfilm has no plans to digitally recreate Carrie Fisher’s performance as Princess or General Leia Organa.

“Carrie Fisher was, is, and always will be a part of the Lucasfilm family. She was our princess, our general, and more importantly, our friend. We are still hurting from her loss. We cherish her memory and legacy as Princess Leia, and will always strive to honor everything she gave to ‘Star Wars.’”

Fisher died on Dec. 27 at age 60, a few days after she was stricken with a heart attack while on a flight from London to Los Angeles. She reportedly filmed her scenes for “Star Wars: Episode VIII” before her death.

The Hollywood Reporter previously reported that a “Star Wars” brain trust was considering how best to proceed with Leia’s story. The team reportedly was discussing resurrecting Fisher with CGI effects, as they did with the late Peter Cushing in “Rogue One,” or writing her character out of the third film in the trilogy altogether.

Filming for “Star Wars: Episode IX” won’t begin until early 2018, so there’s time to fittingly pay tribute to Fisher. Now, we’re confident they’re moving in the right direction.

“Star Wars: Episode VIII” hits theaters Dec. 15, 2017.
I wonder if that also rules out digitally modifying existing footage of her.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Galvatron wrote:I wonder if that also rules out digitally modifying existing footage of her.
To answer my own question, it sounds like that may be exactly what they're planning.

Carrie Fisher Will Somehow Still Star In ‘Star Wars: Episode IX’
Just late last March, Disney CEO Bob Iger confirmed that Carrie Fisher’s scenes in the next “Star Wars” will remain unchanged, despite her recent death at the end of 2016.

“She’s in [Episode] VIII, and we’re not changing VIII to deal with her passing,” said Iger of the upcoming “The Last Jedi” movie. “Her performance, which we’ve been really pleased with, remains as it was.”

But now her brother, Todd Fisher, is claiming that his sister’s memorable character, Leia Organa, will also be appearing in “Episode IX.” Directors had originally planned to feature Carrie in the movie before her death on Dec. 27, 2016.

Fisher explained to New York Daily News that along with Carrie’s daughter, Billie Lourd, he has granted Disney permission to use recent footage of Carrie in the future movie. A CGI recreation of the actress presumably still wouldn’t be involved as previously announced.


“Both of us were like, ‘Yes, how do you take her out of it?’ And the answer is you don’t,” said Fisher at the opening night gala of the TCM Film Festival in Los Angeles.

“She’s as much a part of it as anything and I think her presence now is even more powerful than it was, like Obi Wan — when the saber cuts him down he becomes more powerful,” Fisher also said. “I feel like that’s what’s happened with Carrie. I think the legacy should continue.”

Fisher didn’t know how Disney would incorporate Leia into the script, but it seems as if unused footage from “The Last Jedi” and “The Force Awakens” would be repurposed.

In any case, Fisher believes Disney and the filmmakers will “do great things.”

According to Disney’s schedule, “Star Wars: The Last Jedi” will be released Dec. 15 and the still untitled “Episode IX” is slated for 2019.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I expect their will be some outrage about how this is "disrespectful", but as long as her family okays it, and its done in a manner that isn't too awkward or otherwise disruptive to the narrative of the film, I don't see a problem with it. In fact, it may be for the best.

Though this is also noteworthy in that it confirms that Leia will not die in VIII. Perhaps a spoiler warning on that?
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Though this is also noteworthy in that it confirms that Leia will not die in VIII. Perhaps a spoiler warning on that?
Not necessarily. She still might die in VIII, and turn up in IX as a recording.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Captain Seafort wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Though this is also noteworthy in that it confirms that Leia will not die in VIII. Perhaps a spoiler warning on that?
Not necessarily. She still might die in VIII, and turn up in IX as a recording.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Hmm, I suppose so.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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The Romulan Republic wrote: Though this is also noteworthy in that it confirms that Leia will not die in VIII. Perhaps a spoiler warning on that?
I don't see how it's a spoiler. Fisher was already signed for all three movies so it's a foregone conclusion that she was going to appear in IX anyway.

Her death obviously complicated matters, but LFL said that they're not going to alter VIII. Ergo, my guess is that Colin Trevorrow and ILM will scour and cherry pick her footage from VII and VIII, then modify her surroundings and lip movements via CGI to match the setting and dialogue for her scenes in IX.

That would allow them to insert her into the film without recreating her likeness from whole cloth as they did for Rogue One, which they've also said they won't do.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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They probably will also make those scenes so that they can use stand ins as much as possible, for example having the camera be behind Leia for most of the scene so that her face isn't visible so lip-sync won't matter as much and they use an actress that sort of looks like Carrie Fisher as general Leia Organa from the behind (like Carrie Fisher's stunt double), it's sort of done in movies where all the main stars are alive to get the most benefit from the stars (if you don't recognize them in the scene you can have a stand in fill for them so the star can film another scene elsewhere).
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Yeah, they have plenty of tricks they can use to pull this off. Didn't they paste Christopher Lee's head on a stunt double for his action scenes in the prequels? While I don't expect to see Leia in any action scenes, it would make me giddy to see her wield a lightsaber and use the Force at least once before the saga is over.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Galvatron wrote:Yeah, they have plenty of tricks they can use to pull this off. Didn't they paste Christopher Lee's head on a stunt double for his action scenes in the prequels? While I don't expect to see Leia in any action scenes, it would make me giddy to see her wield a lightsaber and use the Force at least once before the saga is over.
For some parts yes, as mister Lee himself said, he couldn't do those scenes anymore (IIRC he said that he could no longer move his feet/legs fast enough for what the scenes demanded) and it's not stand ins are a new thing either they had been used even before CGI was really a thing, CGI has just made using them easier.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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It's also possible that LFL felt it was too soon to openly discuss their options immediately following her death. That's when they emphatically denied that they would digitally recreate her for IX, but now it seems as if enough time has passed that they're more comfortable with publicizing their intentions.

I wouldn't be surprised if they pull a 180 and wind up giving us CG Leia in a scene or two if they have no other choice. They would probably announce that it was done with the full blessing of Fisher's family, etc., etc. just to tamp down on the inevitable furor that will ensue.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Galvatron wrote:Yeah, they have plenty of tricks they can use to pull this off. Didn't they paste Christopher Lee's head on a stunt double for his action scenes in the prequels? While I don't expect to see Leia in any action scenes, it would make me giddy to see her wield a lightsaber and use the Force at least once before the saga is over.
Honestly, it would be a huge let-down if they didn't have Leia get an action scene at some point, or at least consciously use the Force in some capacity beyond what she has previously demonstrated. She is a Skywalker, and RotJ made a big point of how Luke was going to train her as a Jedi (its right their in the title, actually).

Edit: Of course, it raises the question of why she needed Luke so much, but it might be that she felt she couldn't risk herself fighting the Knights of Ren in person, since she's the Resistance's commander in chief. That, and the obvious desire not to put herself in a position where she might have to duel her own son.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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There's no evidence that Leia ever had any kind of training in using the Force. Considering what we saw in TFA, I would be very surprised if she was anything more than a passive Force-user.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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The Romulan Republic wrote: Honestly, it would be a huge let-down if they didn't have Leia get an action scene at some point, or at least consciously use the Force in some capacity beyond what she has previously demonstrated. She is a Skywalker, and RotJ made a big point of how Luke was going to train her as a Jedi (its right their in the title, actually).

Edit: Of course, it raises the question of why she needed Luke so much, but it might be that she felt she couldn't risk herself fighting the Knights of Ren in person, since she's the Resistance's commander in chief. That, and the obvious desire not to put herself in a position where she might have to duel her own son.
I thought Return of the Jedi refereed to Anakin's return.

Given that TFA has fallen into nearly every other negative plot related trap of the old EU, not making Leia a Jedi is a likely fit as well.
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

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Since Yoda and Obi-Wan were dead and Luke clearly expected to die along with Vader and the Emperor on the second Death Star, I can't help but wonder how he expected Leia to learn to use the Force. At least Obi-Wan gave him some fundamentals in ANH to build upon, but Leia was completely untrained by the end of ROTJ. How would she ever become even a padawan-level Jedi without Luke?

Maybe he foresaw the "awakening" of the Force and predicted that Leia would be able to wield her powers some day as easily as Rey did?
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Re: RIP Carrie Fisher

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Adam Reynolds wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote: Honestly, it would be a huge let-down if they didn't have Leia get an action scene at some point, or at least consciously use the Force in some capacity beyond what she has previously demonstrated. She is a Skywalker, and RotJ made a big point of how Luke was going to train her as a Jedi (its right their in the title, actually).

Edit: Of course, it raises the question of why she needed Luke so much, but it might be that she felt she couldn't risk herself fighting the Knights of Ren in person, since she's the Resistance's commander in chief. That, and the obvious desire not to put herself in a position where she might have to duel her own son.
I thought Return of the Jedi refereed to Anakin's return.

Given that TFA has fallen into nearly every other negative plot related trap of the old EU, not making Leia a Jedi is a likely fit as well.
I took "Return of the Jedi" to mean the resurrection of the Jedi Order, which implies more than one person. It refers to Luke, Anakin, and Leia/anyone else Luke might subsequently train (though the film specifically makes a point of indicating that Luke will train Leia).
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