Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Galvatron »

Filoni also said that stormtroopers "have to serve." :roll:

It was always my assumption that there would be more than enough humans in the galaxy willing to serve that the Empire could get away with an all-volunteer military, but stormtroopers are now conscripts too?
Last edited by Galvatron on 2016-05-31 07:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

Correct. Taken as children just like the First Order ones in some cases, particularly in another academy, run by General Hux's dad.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Galvatron »

NecronLord wrote:Correct. Taken as children.
I thought that was just the First Order stormtroopers.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

You wish.

Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Galvatron »

Okay, for some reason I thought you meant young children. Were those cadets actually drafted or does the Empire simply accept teenage cadets?
User avatar
hunter5
Padawan Learner
Posts: 377
Joined: 2010-01-25 09:34pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by hunter5 »

I always figured it was like a JROTC thing? Taking teenagers from what ever the high school equivalent is or perhaps it is a military high school that kind of thing
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

There's a young readers' book featuring Zare Leonis that goes into more detail; they're primarily enlisted, in the military however some teens chosen for stormtrooper training are subjected to 'conditioning' apart from the others and cease to be interested in their families; I didn't really read that much of it.

Amusingly it had stasis field umbrellas. And stasis-awnings on the sports field.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by biostem »

All this talk about pilot skill reminds me of that mission in TIE Fighter, where they use the scenario of you "training" some new pilots by clearing a mine field while in an unshielded craft...
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2037
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Tiriol »

About that Lothal stormtrooper cadet academy: we must remember that the people running the academy were incompetent (and executed for it). In new EU, Agent Kallus has noted that for some reason, Lothal stormtroopers are sub-par when compared to other stormtroopers he has had under his command and I wouldn't be surprised if the reason is an obvious lack of capable trainers.

Furthermore, there has been speculation that these academies are also meant to find potential Force-senstivies with a penchant for aggressive thinking and recruit them to the Empire's service as Inquisitors or similar.

Out-of-universe, I find this dumping-down of the Empire to be irksome for the reasons already listed (if you diminish your villains, you also diminish your heroes). While I understand at least some of the reasoning behind it (if stormtroopers would be every bit as capable as clonetroopers, the rag-tag group of outlaws seen in Rebels would all have to be on Cad Bane's level of competence to constantly outmaneuver them, unless they are all Jedi as well), it's still tiresome.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

Tiriol wrote:About that Lothal stormtrooper cadet academy: we must remember that the people running the academy were incompetent (and executed for it).
Howevere, the Zare Leonis story (eventually) takes place on another world, where Commandant Hux (the First Order guy's dad) gets promoted for his work and encourages all the same things.

Aresko and Grint are executed by Tarkin for failing to defeat the rebels, not for producing poor quality stormtroopers, though that might be part of the reason they'd not defeated the rebels. Certainly they weren't accused of innovating the failures of the Lothal academy on their own.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Abacus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 597
Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Abacus »

When I think of the Imperial Academy, I tend to think of the one depicted in the old 'Star Wars: Empire' series, specifically the one that featured the background story of Biggs Darklighter.
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"
User avatar
Abacus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 597
Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Abacus »

ROUND FOUR: TIE/Ln Starfighter versus V-19 Torrent Starfighter

Winner: V-19 Torrent Starfighter

Reasoning: Due to equality in pilot skill, it comes down to the ships themselves. Both are the same size and roughly the same in terms of profile, meaning laser targeting will be relatively similar. The V-19 has the advantage in shields and being armed with missiles. The victory goes to the V-19.
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"
User avatar
Abacus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 597
Joined: 2009-10-30 09:08pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Abacus »

ROUND FIVE


Harrower-class Battle Cruiser
Image
Specifications

V.S.

Acclamator-class Assault Ship
Image
Specifications
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

Accy by a country mile. An orbital bombardment gun with kiloton yield is treated as impressive in SWTOR.

Here you go, source: SWTOR quest "Weapons Calibration"
Specialist Zahn - Navy just deployed the next-generation prototype of our top orbital strike weapon. She's a real beauty, let me tell you.
Specialist Zahn - I'm supposed to be overseeing test firing against hard targets in the area, but we're on indefinite standby until conditions improve.
Specialist Zahn - The Exchange is seriously entrenched out here, but they're protecting their strongholds with a wide-area signal jammer.
Specialist Zahn - It means our targeting systems are useless, even the handheld, close-up targeters.
[...]
Specialist Zahn - You with me on this? You could be the first to debut this beauty's ten kiloton wrath.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Rhadamantus
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2016-03-30 02:59pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Rhadamantus »

Wow. Then they're generating 4*10^13 watts. Still 3 times as much as modern humanity, but orders of magnitude less than ever a fighter.
"There is no justice in the laws of nature, no term for fairness in the equations of motion. The Universe is neither evil, nor good, it simply does not care. The stars don't care, or the Sun, or the sky.

But they don't have to! WE care! There IS light in the world, and it is US!"

"There is no destiny behind the ills of this world."

"Mortem Delenda Est."

"25,000km is not orbit"-texanmarauder
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Adam Reynolds »

That is also roughly consistent with the orbital bombardment shown in KOTOR. It was likely kiloton level, but not GT level.

I have always just felt that the KOTOR era was less advanced in general. While they still had the trappings of the OT era, in which everyone was using lightsabers and blasters, it just feels slightly less advanced overall. In particular I have always felt the power level was lower, especially with the nature of personal shields used in that era.
Rhadamantus wrote:Wow. Then they're generating 4*10^13 watts. Still 3 times as much as modern humanity, but orders of magnitude less than ever a fighter.
I'm pretty sure that was just one gun. Though I could be wrong.

Also, the fact that they were using it for orbital bombardment with enough precision to have a problem with jamming indicates that this was likely a lower yield weapon anyway, intended for surgical strikes rather than general destruction.

Also, why don't they have the ability to target jammers directly? We certainly do today. Even air to air missiles often have the capability. Though this makes me wonder just how Star Wars jamming works if it cannot be targeted directly.
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16329
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Batman »

Always depends on the jammer. Not every jammer blinds your sensors with brutal white noise from an easy to track emitter. Let's take Honorverse's 'Dragon's Teeth', which create a plethora of false targets (something we already can do to an extent). Which one of them do you shoot?
'Home-on-jam' is a useful capacity for AAMs because unlike dedicated ECM birds or ground installations, basic aircraft ECM is usually fairly limited, and even ECM bird still have to be able to fly so there's a limit to how much you can cram into them (and that's assuming airworthiness is the 'only' limiting factor, what if they have to be carrier capable?). With technology thousands of years ahead of ours and a whole city/planet to play with, you have a lot more options.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

Rhadamantus wrote:Wow. Then they're generating 4*10^13 watts. Still 3 times as much as modern humanity, but orders of magnitude less than ever a fighter.
Well yes. I was saying it was unimpressive by modern star wars standards, not compared to real life.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I would point out that ICS numbers for Acclamators are no longer canon. However, given the age of the ship and the gap in firepower apparent between the two eras, yes, I'm going to say the Acclamator takes it.
User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Esquire »

The ICS numbers, as far as I know, were arrived at by scaling down from film calculations; they ought to at least be in the right order of magnitude. Another vote for the Acclamator.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by NecronLord »

The Romulan Republic wrote:I would point out that ICS numbers for Acclamators are no longer canon.
This is a legends thread. The OP has said that the stats on the legends pages he's linking to are valid.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Fair enough.

Doesn't really change the answer in any case.

Acclamator takes it.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Elheru Aran »

Esquire wrote:The ICS numbers, as far as I know, were arrived at by scaling down from film calculations; they ought to at least be in the right order of magnitude. Another vote for the Acclamator.
Amusingly, IIRC the Acclamator never fires a shot in either of the two films as far as I know...

On topic: Technology, even in a fairly static society like Star Wars, tends to only progress upwards. Regression only really happens if a civilization-ending disaster occurs and the means of production are destroyed. So a 'modern' ship like the Acclamator really should be stronger than a ship that's ~3000 years before its time.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Didn't the Acclimator fire its guns in a Clone Wars episode?
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Versus Series: Ship Combat in Star Wars

Post by Elheru Aran »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:Didn't the Acclimator fire its guns in a Clone Wars episode?
Clone Wars was almost entirely Venators for some reason. No idea why. Don't recall seeing many Acclamators, though I think there was one that transported the Zillo Beast.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Post Reply