Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-16 03:24pm

In the Thrawn novel, it's made clear that the main purpose of the ISB is to keep tabs on senior Imperial officials. Whether the ISB officer is a colonel or a mere lieutenant, even a moff should be way of him despite the ISB guy officially respecting the chain of command in conversation.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Patroklos » 2017-04-16 03:54pm

Tiriol wrote: You misunderstand me: the ISB Colonel kept referring to Ozzel as "sir", despite them being officially on somewhat same ranking (of course since an ISB Colonel was keeping tabs on Tarkin, Colonel should have been mich higher ranking...). Zahn did seem to operate under the idea that the Colonel was lower-ranking than Ozzel, even though both knew that in a pitch the ISB could wreck Ozzel.
Its not uncommon for the XO and CO of units to be the same rank, the junior generally being promoted into it near then end of their tour. Its is very common for the Chief of Staff or Chief Staff Officer share the same rank as a commodore for instance. Generally officers within the same rank, even if one is senior, do not call each other sir. However, in the instances I just mentioned the nature of the job demands a clear distinction between who is in command and who is not, and any officer worth his salt will make it a point to demonstrate to the rest of the staff he is taking second seat.

Its also common for temporary liaisons and attached SMEs to sometimes rank with and even higher than the commander of the unit they are attached to. This is because the community providing the body has its own demands and they have who they have to spend. These officers might be senior but they hold no command authority so will fall in with the staff and color within their lines.

Beyond the menacing reach back of the ISB such an officer has little to add to the day to day workings of the ship. Its in his best interests regarding doing his job to be in the background.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-16 10:56pm

RogueIce wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I tried making that very same case to Curtis over a decade ago, but he wouldn't have it. He insisted that moff and grand moff were military ranks and that Tarkin's badge was that of a grand moff.

Of course, this was before the Hand of Thrawn duology was published in which Zahn emphatically stated that moffs were civilians political leaders and not military officers.
Eh, that was after a lot of defeats and probably some restructuring of the Empire. I mean we go from Daala holding the cards, to Pellaeon being total control...and then we have Moffs again because why not? But Legends was a fucking mess and there probably were Moffs lurking around even though Darksaber sure as fuck ignored any such beings holding any real power because some other source decided to say so later on.

Anyway, counting something like two decades later after a lot of upheaval as "this is how it was in the movies" probably isn't the best plan anyway. I mean I'm sure it's just coincidence that they pretty much always wore military-style uniforms and military-style insignia, right? And Grand Moff Kaine wearing the same badge as Tarkin, yep total coincidence. Yup. I think it's more likely they were a definite blurring of the lines between civil and military authority because that's how they fucking roll.

In any event, Legends lol

For new Canon, "Tarkin as Moff" has a military uniform and a rank badge clearly inspired by his Grand Moff badge in ANH, though at a 'lower rank' by all appearances. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence too, right?
Right! Time to dredge this up again since the new Thrawn novel just confirmed again that the moffs are civilians:
Tarkin’s title was technically a civilian one, his position giving him authority across a huge swath of the Outer Rim. But he also wore an Imperial Navy uniform, and his duties and authority straddled both civilian and military venues.
And no, this is neither Legends nor does it take place "two decades later after a lot of upheaval."

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Patroklos » 2017-04-17 01:15am

The office of Moff is civilian, but that doesn't mean Moffs are civilians. Just to be clear.

I always understood, and this is born out by its utilization across all sources, Moffs to be a sort of petite nobility. The Empire obviously has actual nobility, but this office was a sop to the vanity of more populist party types that may not be amenable to a traditional title either due to ideological reasons or because of their particular power base inside the Imperial machinery. T

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Tiriol » 2017-04-17 09:02am

Patroklos wrote:
Tiriol wrote: You misunderstand me: the ISB Colonel kept referring to Ozzel as "sir", despite them being officially on somewhat same ranking (of course since an ISB Colonel was keeping tabs on Tarkin, Colonel should have been mich higher ranking...). Zahn did seem to operate under the idea that the Colonel was lower-ranking than Ozzel, even though both knew that in a pitch the ISB could wreck Ozzel.
Its not uncommon for the XO and CO of units to be the same rank, the junior generally being promoted into it near then end of their tour. Its is very common for the Chief of Staff or Chief Staff Officer share the same rank as a commodore for instance. Generally officers within the same rank, even if one is senior, do not call each other sir. However, in the instances I just mentioned the nature of the job demands a clear distinction between who is in command and who is not, and any officer worth his salt will make it a point to demonstrate to the rest of the staff he is taking second seat.

Its also common for temporary liaisons and attached SMEs to sometimes rank with and even higher than the commander of the unit they are attached to. This is because the community providing the body has its own demands and they have who they have to spend. These officers might be senior but they hold no command authority so will fall in with the staff and color within their lines.

Beyond the menacing reach back of the ISB such an officer has little to add to the day to day workings of the ship. Its in his best interests regarding doing his job to be in the background.
I know. Sadly, in Allegiance there were no other staff present when the Colonel and Ozzel were talking, at least to my recollection, so there was no other reason to use "sir" than the idea that Ozzel officially outranked the ISB officer.

I think that the new continuity has somewhat moved from this state of affairs, since it's an ISB Captain who's in charge of maintaning a Star Destroyer's crew's loyalty; and Kallus holds the rank of Commander in ISB and is treated equal to Admirals (necessary, since he has to but heads with them often or even reprimand them).
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Ender » 2017-04-17 01:10pm

Galvatron wrote:
Right! Time to dredge this up again since the new Thrawn novel just confirmed again that the moffs are civilians:
Tarkin’s title was technically a civilian one, his position giving him authority across a huge swath of the Outer Rim. But he also wore an Imperial Navy uniform, and his duties and authority straddled both civilian and military venues.
And no, this is neither Legends nor does it take place "two decades later after a lot of upheaval."


But of course that is complicated by Chapter 11 detailing the process of secondment where active duty military personnel hold civilian positions in certain systems.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Ender » 2017-04-17 01:12pm

Tiriol wrote:
Patroklos wrote:
Tiriol wrote: You misunderstand me: the ISB Colonel kept referring to Ozzel as "sir", despite them being officially on somewhat same ranking (of course since an ISB Colonel was keeping tabs on Tarkin, Colonel should have been mich higher ranking...). Zahn did seem to operate under the idea that the Colonel was lower-ranking than Ozzel, even though both knew that in a pitch the ISB could wreck Ozzel.
Its not uncommon for the XO and CO of units to be the same rank, the junior generally being promoted into it near then end of their tour. Its is very common for the Chief of Staff or Chief Staff Officer share the same rank as a commodore for instance. Generally officers within the same rank, even if one is senior, do not call each other sir. However, in the instances I just mentioned the nature of the job demands a clear distinction between who is in command and who is not, and any officer worth his salt will make it a point to demonstrate to the rest of the staff he is taking second seat.

Its also common for temporary liaisons and attached SMEs to sometimes rank with and even higher than the commander of the unit they are attached to. This is because the community providing the body has its own demands and they have who they have to spend. These officers might be senior but they hold no command authority so will fall in with the staff and color within their lines.

Beyond the menacing reach back of the ISB such an officer has little to add to the day to day workings of the ship. Its in his best interests regarding doing his job to be in the background.
I know. Sadly, in Allegiance there were no other staff present when the Colonel and Ozzel were talking, at least to my recollection, so there was no other reason to use "sir" than the idea that Ozzel officially outranked the ISB officer.

I think that the new continuity has somewhat moved from this state of affairs, since it's an ISB Captain who's in charge of maintaning a Star Destroyer's crew's loyalty; and Kallus holds the rank of Commander in ISB and is treated equal to Admirals (necessary, since he has to but heads with them often or even reprimand them).

ISB was always the political snitches with their ranks being paramilitary titles rather than explicit positions in the chain of command. That appears to be unchanged in the new canon
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-17 02:49pm

Ender wrote:But of course that is complicated by Chapter 11 detailing the process of secondment where active duty military personnel hold civilian positions in certain systems.
Not sure I follow. Can you elaborate?

Also, did you notice much fodder this novel gave us for discussing planetary sieges? I was especially interested in the parts that indicated turbolaser power is reduced when passing through an atmosphere.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Ender » 2017-04-18 11:37pm

Galvatron wrote:
Ender wrote:But of course that is complicated by Chapter 11 detailing the process of secondment where active duty military personnel hold civilian positions in certain systems.
Not sure I follow. Can you elaborate?
letting active duty military officers serve in civilian posts while retaining their rank and continuing to be in and advance in the military is a thing complicates how we understand other positions and their relative command.

Also, did you notice much fodder this novel gave us for discussing planetary sieges? I was especially interested in the parts that indicated turbolaser power is reduced when passing through an atmosphere.
I think that flows from Zahn being constrained by what happens in Rebels and writing to play within those constraints. Rebels was already scripted out before Zahn was contracted for the book so he didn't get any input on the scripts and just went with the flow. So basically that means a lot of scenes that mesh his take on the character with theirs, and given the events of Zero Hour, diving into a similar siege and showing plausible reasons his Thrawn would take similar actions to theirs.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Patroklos » 2017-04-19 03:58am

Hamstringing one of the few proven talented SW writers to the whims of the army of shitty SW writers. What a great idea.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2017-04-19 08:20am

Patroklos wrote:Hamstringing one of the few proven talented SW writers to the whims of the army of shitty SW writers. What a great idea.
The only thing Zahn has proven again and again in EU and now with the Thrawn book is that he should be prohibited from touching the characters he created after one book/trilogy. Bringing him back was a horrible mistake.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Ender » 2017-04-19 09:57am

Patroklos wrote:Hamstringing one of the few proven talented SW writers to the whims of the army of shitty SW writers. What a great idea.
That's how franchise fiction operates my man. You are playing in someone else's sandbox, so you need to be considerate of the other kids castles.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-19 07:49pm

I rather liked the book, despite the confusion surrounding the ranks.

I also found it interesting that Zahn made Colonel Yularen relatively likeable. I guess he gets points for being a swell guy during his service as an admiral during the Clone Wars.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Patroklos » 2017-04-20 04:21am

eMeM wrote:
Patroklos wrote:Hamstringing one of the few proven talented SW writers to the whims of the army of shitty SW writers. What a great idea.
The only thing Zahn has proven again and again in EU and now with the Thrawn book is that he should be prohibited from touching the characters he created after one book/trilogy. Bringing him back was a horrible mistake.
Not really, someone owns this sandbox so you only have to please them (or now a board).

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Ender » 2017-04-20 01:58pm

Patroklos wrote:
eMeM wrote:
Patroklos wrote:Hamstringing one of the few proven talented SW writers to the whims of the army of shitty SW writers. What a great idea.
The only thing Zahn has proven again and again in EU and now with the Thrawn book is that he should be prohibited from touching the characters he created after one book/trilogy. Bringing him back was a horrible mistake.
Not really, someone owns this sandbox so you only have to please them (or now a board).
That's one of those meritocratic myths so common with the STEM crew and ivy grads, that doing good work and delivering for the boss will win out over any degree of interpersonal misconduct or antisocial behavior. "I hate you Ron Burgundy. I pure, straight, hate you. But God damn it do I respect you."

Truth is networks matter, how you deal with others matter, and making sure to always show respect for your fellows matters. Life is short, memories are long, and the world is always MUCH smaller than anyone thinks.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Himser » 2017-04-26 02:50pm

So i created a new Chart, with my best guesses at the insignias.

Image

Please let me know if there is a canon source that counteracts these.

the closest ones that don't jive (Branson and Titus (after he was demoted) make sense when you consider they are Intelligence Officers and have regular officers underneath them in certain situations. (Branson and the 4 Ranked Red Haired Guy makes sense if you look at how Geonosis at this time was almost certainly an Intelligence Run Operation and Patrol)

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Tiriol » 2017-04-27 08:27am

Himser wrote:So i created a new Chart, with my best guesses at the insignias.

Image

Please let me know if there is a canon source that counteracts these.

the closest ones that don't jive (Branson and Titus (after he was demoted) make sense when you consider they are Intelligence Officers and have regular officers underneath them in certain situations. (Branson and the 4 Ranked Red Haired Guy makes sense if you look at how Geonosis at this time was almost certainly an Intelligence Run Operation and Patrol)
In Vader comics by Marvel, Tagge had six blue squares over six red squares during his demotion by Palpatine. I don't know if he actually lost the rank of Grand General or if it's an alternative insignia for Grand General, the dialogue only makes it clear that Vader now held command over him.

Fascinating table. Where do you get the "senior" ranks? And I suppose you used Thrawn novel's ranking system?

I don't know if Directors should be under Grand Officers in authority, though - it might, of course, depend on the Emperor's favor, but the implication is that, for example, Director of ISB holds much more sway than any Grand Officer, apart from, perhaps, Grand Moff. I do think that the political offices, including Intelligence services, are somewhat incompatible with the usual military hierarchy of ranks (similar to NKVD and the Red Army before and during WW2).
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-27 11:46am

Himser wrote:Please let me know if there is a canon source that counteracts these.
Governor Pryce has the same badge as Tarkin, but she's not a grand moff.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-04-27 11:49am

Maybe that badge represents her governance - which a Moff has - but it doesn't say anything about her place in the military itself which may be something else from that of a Grand Moff? And she IS a "governor-general" of the Lothal world... system? Sector?
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-27 12:43pm

Wookieepedia says: "Arihnda Pryce was a human female who served as Governor of the Lothal sector fourteen years after the rise of the Galactic Empire."

I guess that would make her a moff (assuming the wiki is correct).

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-04-27 12:45pm

I'm presuming she's a centrally-installed military-style governor and not a "locally elected" kind of governor...
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-27 12:57pm

Right. Her story was basically the B-plot of the Thrawn novel and it's also noteworthy that she never served in the Imperial military before she was appointed governor of Lothal.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-04-27 01:14pm

What was she before?
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-04-27 01:42pm

A political bureaucrat.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-04-27 03:09pm

That's so weird. She comes off as some militarist but before this she was just some corporate heiress or something? Bleh. I'm gonna head-canon it that she also sidelined for COMPNOR or something, the Sithstaffel like the IRL SS might have some weird parallel ranking system to the actual military...

Aside from Pryce, we also have Minister Tua (rest her cute blonde soul) being an Imperial Academy graduate before being part of the Lothal government. It's so weird, with Lothal there's no clear distinction between military and civilian when it comes to the authority. I wonder how that worked before Pryce...

And in retrospect, I like Tua's goofy hat. Despite being of the Imperial government, at least we see some aesthetic variation that calls back to non-Imperial SW fashion and general space opera soft-scifi cool looking things.
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