Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2016-12-27 03:26pm

I think the jury is still out on that. The old EU says they're ISB and so did the new until Rogue One gave us Krennic. Then again, Catalyst seemed deliberately vague on Krennic's role within both the Republic and the Empire, as if being an engineer was a cover for some other duty.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2016-12-27 03:45pm

If I was in intelligence/secret-something-group pretending to be an engineer I'd most definitely wear the uniform of an engineer ;)

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2016-12-27 03:51pm

Was anything stated in Rogue One about what Krennic's position actually was? Beyond "Director" and "oversaw the DS construction." It would be in keeping for the Empire to assign someone senior to oversee the project even if they aren't engineers (eg Moff Jerjerrod and the DSII).

Maybe he was an ISB officer placed there to oversee the Emperor's new terror weapon, which is meant to ensure compliance of Imperial worlds. That fits.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2016-12-27 04:14pm

Not in Rogue, but in Catalyst it's stated that he was, and I think officially still is, in the Corps of Engineers, and also (up to some point unofficially) the director of the Special Weapons Group.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by FedRebel » 2016-12-27 05:26pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Was anything stated in Rogue One about what Krennic's position actually was? Beyond "Director"
I could of sworn Tarkin called Krennic "Military Director of Advanced Weapons Research"

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2016-12-28 11:11am

Huh, must have missed that line, but still, that doesn't actually say he's an engineer. Even if Catalyst states h's in the Corps of Engineers, that doesn't mean he is one.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2017-01-07 01:39pm

From the latest episode of Rebels:
Image
The woman in the back is reffered to as a captain, and the plate with one cylinder matches that rank. She has a black uniform, which I don't remember what represents, but I assume some special purpose units, the prototype Interdictor commander also had a black uniform, and it makes sense considering her ship is guarding Geonosis.
Collar insignia is new, a triangle outline pointing inwards.

What is strange tho is the guy in the front, his insignia suggest a higher rank, a commodore according to the chart in the first post :?

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-01-07 03:25pm

If the red haired guy is a specialist of some sort it might not be so odd that he would outrank the ship CO without being himself in command. The CO for the transport that travelled between the base I technically was stationed at during my service and base where the regimental HQ was (and where I spent most of my actual service time) was technically outranked by the ship chief engineer but the CO was still the guy in charge.

While typically the CO of a ship is the highest ranking person who is part of the permanent crew it's not a must be, it's just done to make the chain of command more simple to understand. Also Flag Officers don't personally command their flag ships and defer to the ship CO when regarding actions of the ship itself and her crew in fact the flag officer cannot directly command the ship only command the CO, unless for what reason said flag officer is also the CO.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-16 02:20pm

Here's something I didn't notice before, a tweet from Pablo Hidalgo: https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status ... 7306842112
Image

If anybody asked him in December, Wookieepedia didn't catch it and/or record it. :(

EDIT: He was just saying Krennic is not an Admiral, nevermind.

Anyway have the Rogue One VG? Maybe that had something to say on the subject? Hidalgo did write it, after all.

At any rate, perhaps we can then assume that the real interpretation for the rank-and-file is the ESB scheme, which is the most consistent and fleshed out? It seems so. 'Special' officers like Tarkin, Tagge (post-promotion) and Thrawn being the exceptions, of course.

EDIT 2: He also goes on to say that there likely will never be an 'official' rank chart, and that the one from EGTW is "pretty good" which I think is more-or-less an admission that the whole thing is a fucking mess and even with the Canon Purge they're never going to really 'fix it' so we're left with ad-hoc interpretations and inconsistencies throughout. :lol:
Last edited by RogueIce on 2017-02-16 02:26pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-02-16 02:24pm

Maybe they actually break open to reveal tic tacs or other space breath mints they can chew on in between meetings so they won't have bad breath... obviously Vader doesn't need any.

Also... man it would've saved everyone all the time and trouble if this military force from another era in another freaking galaxy just used bland US military, Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine rank insignias and filled up their worldbuilding wikis with that. :P ;)
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-16 02:28pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Also... man it would've saved everyone all the time and trouble if this military force from another era in another freaking galaxy just used bland US military, Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine rank insignias and filled up their worldbuilding wikis with that. :P ;)
Not necessary. They didn't need to copy the insignia, but they could have gone with some consistency in the expanded material. I mean, even the differences between ANH and ESB aren't a big deal: an insignia changeover, Tarkin wanting to be a special snowflake with the Death Star, whatever. ROTJ is already admitted to be an error.

It's just the extra material didn't even try, despite having an opportunity to do so. Although FWIW Rebels is mostly consistent in using the ESB style, a few exceptions here and there notwithstanding.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-02-16 02:31pm

Maybe those aren't rank insignias but like clothes-mounted computers. Like Vader's chest-console thing.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-16 02:32pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe those aren't rank insignias but like clothes-mounted computers. Like Vader's chest-console thing.
No, they are. Go reread the OP, they're defined as rank insignia plaques in the reference material.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-02-16 02:35pm

Maybe they deliberately muck them up so Rebels will kidnap some shit who's got the admiral plaques but it turns out this is their varsity-league dianoga-wrestling sanitation technician. So the Gerrerists will go "what the shit" when the person they thought was some weakly officer ends up tearing off his shirt and wrestling BOR GULLET!
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-16 02:42pm

eMeM wrote:So the white tunic with black trousers and a black hat got retconned as representing the Corps of Engineers, correct?
Galvatron wrote:I think the jury is still out on that. The old EU says they're ISB and so did the new until Rogue One gave us Krennic. Then again, Catalyst seemed deliberately vague on Krennic's role within both the Republic and the Empire, as if being an engineer was a cover for some other duty.
Forgot to mention it earlier, but Galen Erso's Imperial uniform is much different from what Krennic wears, and if I was going to hazard a guess about who's wearing an "Imperial Corps of Engineers" uniform I'd say it's Galen, not Krennic.

As for white-over-black, Yularen wears the same thing and Tarkin establishes him as an ISB Colonel, as well as Deputy Director of the Naval Intelligence Agency - whether his position at the NIA would require a separate rank/branch from being ISB Colonel or if they're concurrent, I'm not sure.
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"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-02-16 03:03pm

The new EU novels have described ISB officer uniforms as being all black more than once so now I'm left wondering if the white tunic is simply an optional variant.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-16 05:02pm

Galvatron wrote:The new EU novels have described ISB officer uniforms as being all black more than once so now I'm left wondering if the white tunic is simply an optional variant.
Perhaps. Let's look at ISB Commander Alecia Beck who apparently has an all-white uniform, but was at one point sporting a Krennic-like cape. Of course, her concept art has her in all black. So who knows?

Another example we have is Inspector General Bozeden Jeems who is identified as an ISB officer in the Rogue One VG, and he's definitely wearing the ANH-style ISB uniform.

So maybe it's for more senior officers to wear white-over-black? Would make sense. Fits with Agent Kallus wearing gray, but that could just be a standard field uniform. Not sure why Commander Beck is in all white, though.

Unidentified Security Officer who wears a standard Imperial officer's uniform - I'm assuming the "black" code cylinders are just a graphics limitation - but who also has a strap running across his chest for some reason.
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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-02-16 05:23pm

I haven't seen any illustrations, but I seem to recall noting that ISB agents Romwell Krass Junior and Sinjir Rath Velus were described as having worn black uniforms during their time in Imperial service.

I'll look around for the relevant passages in case my memory is deceiving me.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2017-02-16 05:51pm

Could those be for environmental reasons? Self-warming capes for visiting friends at environmentally difficult planets, like Eadu or Galen's hiding spot? Though he also had it while visiting Scarif... maybe it also has cooling functions.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2017-02-17 12:04pm

RogueIce wrote: Anyway have the Rogue One VG? Maybe that had something to say on the subject? Hidalgo did write it, after all.
I do, I would scan relevant pages but it's not in English.

On the site about the Alliance VG lists the super simple Rebel rank system (1 dot - leutnant, 2 dots - captain, 3 dots - major, 4 dots - commander, 5 dots - colonel, 6 dots - general, colours tell the branch of service), on the corresponding site about the Empire it only says that the plaque with coloured squares is a rank badge and that some sectors use different colour schemes which leads to confusion :D

But there are pictures of some officers with short descriptions, which give us:

I █ █ I
Junior lieutenant Chasser

I █ █ I
Leutnant Gavla, comm officer on Scarif
Leutnant Valdas, Scarif

█ █ I
Leutnant Adema, Scarif

I █ █ █ I
Leutnant Putna, security officer on Scarif, black uniform

I █ █ █ I
Inspector General Jeems (no actual rank is given), ISB, white tunic, black cap and trousers

I █ █ █ █ █ █ I
General Ramda, commander of Scarif garrison

I █ █ █ █ █ █ I
General Romodi, serves on the Death Star

The guide also calls Krennic's badge a fleet admiral badge.

About the uniforms, Krennic's is definitely ISB, there is one other character described as ISB officer and he wears the same (except the cape).
All black unifrom guys are leutnant Putna - secuity officer, and navy troopers.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Lord Revan » 2017-02-17 12:43pm

Personally I prefer to see Krennic's cape as an option that's avaible for senior officers but it's somewhat tacky to use it normally outside of ceremonies or parades which is why Krennic is the only live action imperial officer we've seen wearing one, basically Krennic is wearing the imperial equilevant of the officer's sabre all the time instead of just in the special occations most officers would wear them. In my opinion that would fit the character of Krennic thinking he's more important then he actually is.
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by RogueIce » 2017-02-17 08:45pm

eMeM wrote:
RogueIce wrote: Anyway have the Rogue One VG? Maybe that had something to say on the subject? Hidalgo did write it, after all.
I do, I would scan relevant pages but it's not in English.

On the site about the Alliance VG lists the super simple Rebel rank system (1 dot - leutnant, 2 dots - captain, 3 dots - major, 4 dots - commander, 5 dots - colonel, 6 dots - general, colours tell the branch of service)
But "5 dots - colonel" contradicts Rieekan and Dodonna? And we never saw a 6 dot Rebel badge...
on the corresponding site about the Empire it only says that the plaque with coloured squares is a rank badge and that some sectors use different colour schemes which leads to confusion :D
Hooray for that lol
But there are pictures of some officers with short descriptions, which give us:

I █ █ I
Junior lieutenant Chasser

I █ █ I
Leutnant Gavla, comm officer on Scarif
Leutnant Valdas, Scarif

█ █ I
Leutnant Adema, Scarif

I █ █ █ I
Leutnant Putna, security officer on Scarif, black uniform

I █ █ █ I
Inspector General Jeems (no actual rank is given), ISB, white tunic, black cap and trousers

I █ █ █ █ █ █ I
General Ramda, commander of Scarif garrison

I █ █ █ █ █ █ I
General Romodi, serves on the Death Star

The guide also calls Krennic's badge a fleet admiral badge.

About the uniforms, Krennic's is definitely ISB, there is one other character described as ISB officer and he wears the same (except the cape).
All black unifrom guys are leutnant Putna - secuity officer, and navy troopers.
If two reds is a "Junior Lieutenant" than damn Titus took a hell of a demotion! :shock: He's still referred to as a "Commander" though, but that could be a title. Still, IIRC there were other LTs there as well? And he was in charge of them?

Also it seems that Blue is superior to Red now? At least in the ANH scheme. Also Captain Khurgee should be a General/Admiral by this, but "Star Wars in 100 Scenes" apparently still lists him as a Captain.

GG New Canon, you didn't even try, did you?
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The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Patroklos » 2017-02-18 06:58am

Some thoughts:

1.) if there is a Corps of Engineers it doesn't have to be a separate service. It could simply be an overarching pool of officers from any military branch or even department of government that meet certain criteria. As a real world example the US military has an Aquisition Corps but it's not a separate entity, but rather a collection of logistics/comptroller/contracting/anyone else who has certain education criteria and has a posting history that meets certain wickets.

2.) in the US i can't think of any major military procurement program that is headed by an engineer and this is a good thing. The lead of the entire program, which includes not just the design and building if the thing but also sheparding it through the political and budgetary realities of government as well as keeping it grounded to a actual military necessity, is an officer with program management experience which is not the same thing as an engineering officer. To be clear such projects have chief engineers and the program manager is usually an engineer by education, but he is always a combat arms/line officer by profession.

3.) krennic may be a talented player in court who has demonstrated an array of useful abilities and competencies but maybe never participated in any sort of conventional career. I imagine any new state or major transitional state like the Empire would discover and rely on a lot of such people and want to integrate them into the ordinary state machinery. While you could just grant someone like that high military rank and call it a day you generally don't get a lot of acceptance from existing organizational players if you are trying to coopt something like say the proud and professional and stories Rebulic, now Imperial, navy. That's where having some think like COMPNOR comes in handy to provide a parallel schedule to apooont people to that rank with but not among the entrenched elite. This is where organizations like the Iraq Republican Guard or Iranian RevolutionaryGuardor the Waffen SS come in handy, and why you often see what appear like organizational inefficiencies inside dictatorships via parallel groups.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by Galvatron » 2017-02-18 04:43pm

Galvatron wrote:I haven't seen any illustrations, but I seem to recall noting that ISB agents Romwell Krass Junior and Sinjir Rath Velus were described as having worn black uniforms during their time in Imperial service.

I'll look around for the relevant passages in case my memory is deceiving me.
For the life of me, I can't find the passages that I could have sworn I read in the past few weeks. Now I know how those people who insist that "Berenstain" was spelled differently in their alternate reality must feel.

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Re: Imperial Rank Insignia Discussion

Post by eMeM » 2017-02-19 05:15am

RogueIce wrote:
eMeM wrote:On the site about the Alliance VG lists the super simple Rebel rank system (1 dot - leutnant, 2 dots - captain, 3 dots - major, 4 dots - commander, 5 dots - colonel, 6 dots - general, colours tell the branch of service)
But "5 dots - colonel" contradicts Rieekan and Dodonna? And we never saw a 6 dot Rebel badge...
Oh shit, sorry. I can't count. Obviously general is five dots and colonel is four, commander is three just like major, but major has two dots in the upper half and one dot on the lower, centered, and commander's badge is the same just rotated 180 degree.
RogueIce wrote: Also Captain Khurgee should be a General/Admiral by this, but "Star Wars in 100 Scenes" apparently still lists him as a Captain.

GG New Canon, you didn't even try, did you?
Yeah, that's strange. Maybe he's from a different sector :P Or maybe we just shouldn't think too much about the ANH system.

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