Theoretical Imperial Order of Battle

[Rhadamantus]

Imperial Order of Battle (100,000 ISD masses)
Ships
Corvette (700,000x)
Oppugnator Class (.005 ISD mass)
Frigate (70,000x)
Fulgor Class (.03 ISD mass)
Light Cruiser
Vindicator Class (.1 ISD mass)
Heavy Cruiser (21,980x)
Venator Class (.35 ISD mass)
Victory Class (.35 ISD mass)
Destroyer (30,840x)
Imperial Class (1 ISD mass)
Tector Class (1 ISD mass)
Destroyer Leader (2758x)
Allegiant Class (2.6 ISD masses)
Battlecruiser (2300x)
Procurator Class (3.5 ISD masses)
Praetor Class (12 ISD masses)
Aquila Class Carrier (12 ISD masses)
Bellator Class (18 ISD masses)
Battleship (300x)
Proculutor (40 ISD masses)
Mandator Class (72 ISD masses)
Executor Class (118 ISD masses)
Dreadnaught

Total (91,200 ISD masses)

Naval Reserve (Under Emperor’s Direct Command) (13,600 ISD masses)
30 Executor Class
30 Proculutor Class
50 Bellator Class
50 Aquila Class
30 Praetor Class
100 Allegiant Class
1000 Tector Class
4000 Imperial Class
5000 Venator Class

Regional Command Fleet (20x) (Covers 50 sectors) (47,900 ISD masses)
Old Type (12x)
Battleline (2040 ISD masses)
12 Mandator Class
12 Bellator Class
60 Procurator
60 Allegiant
240 Tector
360 Imperial

New Type (8x)
Battleline (2928 ISD masses) (
12 Executor Class
12 Bellator Class
12 Aquila Class
144 Allegiant Class
360 Tector Class
420 Imperial Class


Sector Fleets (29,700 ISD masses)
Core Worlds Sector Fleet (45 ISD masses) (300 x)
Battlefleet
Old Battlefleet (45 ISD masses) (162x)
1 Praetor Class
3 Allegiance Class
10 Tector Class
15 Imperial Class

New Battlefleet (54 ISD masses) (138x)
1 Bellator Class
3 Procurator Class
10 Tector Class
15 Imperial Class
10 Venator Class

Mid Rim Sector Fleet (30 ISD masses) (400x)
Battlefleet (15 ISD masses)
1 Procurator Class
2 Tector Class
8 Imperial Class
4 Venator Class
Patrol Fleet
1000 Oppugnator Class
100 Fulgor Class
20 Victory Class
Outer Rim Sector Fleet (20 ISD masses) (300x)
Main Battle Fleet (5.6 ISD mass) (
3 Imperial-Class
1 Allegiant
Patrol Fleet (15 ISD masses)
1000 Oppugnator Class
100 Fulgor Class
20 Victory Class

Executor Class-126
Mandator Class-144
Proculutor Class-30
Bellator Class-428
Aquila Class-146
Praetor-192
Procurator-1534
Allegiance-2758
Imperial Class-20,280
Tector-10,560
Victory-14,000
Venator-7980
Fulgor-70,000
Oppugnator-700,000


Ranks
Fleet Admiral (O-13) (3.5 billion)
Grand Admiral (O-12) (500 million)
Regional Admiral (O-11) (100 million)
Admiral (O-10) (10 million)
Vice Admiral (O-9) (3 million)
Rear Admiral (O-8) (600,000)
Commodore (O-7) (200,000)
Line Captain (O-6) (40,000)
Captain (O-5) (4,000)
Commander (O-4) (500)
Lieutenant Commander (O-3) (100)
Lieutenant (O-2) (20)
Ensign (O-1) (5)

Does this make any sense as a broad setup?

[Purple]

What is the purpose of this post?

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Why do Fleet Admirals outrank Grand Admirals? Historically, that's been the other way around when the two ranks existed in the same service, and, if we go by the Legends EU, a Grand Admiral outranks everyone in the Imperial military but the Executor(Vader) and the Emperor himself.

Also, I think your personnel numbers are a bit off. Why would there be more flag officers than juniors?

[Rhadamantus]

The Fleet Admiral is head of the entire Imperial navy, and the numbers are how many are under their command.

[Adam Reynolds]

If the Empire has all of these ships other than ISDs, why do we never see them?

The Empire uses nothing but ISDs on the backwater of Tatooine and in Vader's personal fleet, not to mention at the climactic Battle of Endor. While there are undoubtedly other regional ships in the fleet, the sort that Han Solo outruns, ISDs are the main do everything warship of the Empire.

In much the same way, the Republic used nothing but Venators during the Clone Wars, with a few Acclamators thrown in as pure troop transports. There might be a few of Venators left around, but it is likely that there was a design flaw relating to their hangers, making the ships glass cannons. The Accalamtor also lacked the firepower or shields to stand as a conventional warship as well, meaning that once the massive expeditionary armies of the Clone Wars were no longer needed, there was little need for them. When The Empire launched a planetary invasion they seemed to use a larger number of smaller transports, protected by friendly capital ships that stayed in orbit to prevent anyone from escaping.

Even in Rebels, the only other craft we see is the much smaller Arquitens-class frigate, which I believe are seen even less than Star Destroyers, and are destroyed by a single B-wing(out of universe, they are shown to give the heroes something they can realistically destroy). Rebels also never shows the Clone Wars era designs.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

The Fleet Admiral is head of the entire Imperial navy, and the numbers are how many are under their command.

Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[NecronLord]

The Fleet Admiral is head of the entire Imperial navy, and the numbers are how many are under their command.

Is this intended to be fanfiction? If so, wrong forum.

In legends it's the other way around, in the nu-Canon, Grand General Tagge is in overall authority over the Imperial armed forces in the post Yavin era. There's a guy calling himself an imperial Grand Admiral in Aftermath but I don't believe he actually holds such a commission, he seems to be more of a warlord.

[Galvatron]

Grand General Tagge is in overall authority over the Imperial armed forces in the post Yavin era. There's a guy calling himself an imperial Grand Admiral in Aftermath but I don't believe he actually holds such a commission, he seems to be more of a warlord.

I read Aftermath, but I don't recall any grand admirals. Are you sure about this?

[NecronLord]

I've seen the fleet admiral cited as such, but I'm not sure of the source, no.

[Patroklos]

If the Empire has all of these ships other than ISDs, why do we never see them?

The Empire uses nothing but ISDs on the backwater of Tatooine and in Vader's personal fleet, not to mention at the climactic Battle of Endor. While there are undoubtedly other regional ships in the fleet, the sort that Han Solo outruns, ISDs are the main do everything warship of the Empire.

While you could look at it that way, the more likely explanation is stated in our post. In ANH we are observing the personal forces of the Empires top military/political leader. In ESB we are observing the personal task force of the Emperor's plenipotentiary and right hand man. In ESB we are observing the forces arrayed for the Emperor himself. And even if the high level persons were not around, the forces are still those attached to the Empire's #1 project in all three movies.

What we are observing is the force selections of the most powerful and influential persons in the Empire to pursue the most important missions of the Empire in an state where personal clout and extraordinary jurisdiction over normal Imperial rules is the order of business. If you had your choice between ISDs or Victories what would you pick?

And we do in fact see four different Imperial warships classes on screen in the OT, not counting different versions of the ISD.

[Rhadamantus]

If the Empire has all of these ships other than ISDs, why do we never see them?

The Empire uses nothing but ISDs on the backwater of Tatooine and in Vader's personal fleet, not to mention at the climactic Battle of Endor. While there are undoubtedly other regional ships in the fleet, the sort that Han Solo outruns, ISDs are the main do everything warship of the Empire.

In much the same way, the Republic used nothing but Venators during the Clone Wars, with a few Acclamators thrown in as pure troop transports. There might be a few of Venators left around, but it is likely that there was a design flaw relating to their hangers, making the ships glass cannons. The Accalamtor also lacked the firepower or shields to stand as a conventional warship as well, meaning that once the massive expeditionary armies of the Clone Wars were no longer needed, there was little need for them. When The Empire launched a planetary invasion they seemed to use a larger number of smaller transports, protected by friendly capital ships that stayed in orbit to prevent anyone from escaping.

Even in Rebels, the only other craft we see is the much smaller Arquitens-class frigate, which I believe are seen even less than Star Destroyers, and are destroyed by a single B-wing(out of universe, they are shown to give the heroes something they can realistically destroy). Rebels also never shows the Clone Wars era designs.

Which ones would you expect to see? We see Executors, and the Empire wouldn't send a Mandator or Proculutor. There's no reason to have a Aquila, the Empire had a Bellator, Praetor or Procurator at Endor, we see Tectors, and anything smaller won't be fit to stand anywhere near the line of battle.

[Simon_Jester]

Rhadamantus, the problem with your post is the total lack of context. Why did you select the numbers you chose? How do you estimate the needs of the Imperial fleet? Should they invest in numerous light ships (say, gunboats little or no bigger than the Millenium Falcon)? Should they invest in fewer, heavier ships? How many superheavy dreadnoughts do they need, and why?

Numbers and lists are totally meaningless and pointless unless they are created to serve a purpose.

If the Empire has all of these ships other than ISDs, why do we never see them?

The Empire uses nothing but ISDs on the backwater of Tatooine and in Vader's personal fleet, not to mention at the climactic Battle of Endor. While there are undoubtedly other regional ships in the fleet, the sort that Han Solo outruns, ISDs are the main do everything warship of the Empire.

Perhaps the Empire uses such ships purely for local patrol missions (and therefore has them in vast numbers), but does not routinely redeploy them to cover planets or sectors they don't care about.

Vader's personal squadron is the one that chases Leia to Tatooine, attacks Hoth, and visits Bespin, after all. It might well be made up entirely of relatively heavy ships (so that there is little risk of anyone daring to shoot back at his command). That doesn't mean light ships are not operating off screen. But if the light ships are all permanently attached to local force commands, then we wouldn't see them in places the Rebellion normally operates, precisely because the Rebels would not choose to operate in Imperial-patrolled space if they could help it!

I can't speak for Rebels.

[Adam Reynolds]

While you could look at it that way, the more likely explanation is stated in our post. In ANH we are observing the personal forces of the Empires top military/political leader. In ESB we are observing the personal task force of the Emperor's plenipotentiary and right hand man. In ESB we are observing the forces arrayed for the Emperor himself. And even if the high level persons were not around, the forces are still those attached to the Empire's #1 project in all three movies.

What we are observing is the force selections of the most powerful and influential persons in the Empire to pursue the most important missions of the Empire in an state where personal clout and extraordinary jurisdiction over normal Imperial rules is the order of business. If you had your choice between ISDs or Victories what would you pick?

The Empire had 3 ISDs chasing the Millennium Falcon off Tatooine. That would be like the US Navy using nothing but the Burke class to blockade smuggling ships when the smaller and faster LCS would not only be a better use of resources but would also be more effective as it is faster.

And we do in fact see four different Imperial warships classes on screen in the OT, not counting different versions of the ISD.

What four classes?

Which ones would you expect to see? We see Executors, and the Empire wouldn't send a Mandator or Proculutor. There's no reason to have a Aquila, the Empire had a Bellator, Praetor or Procurator at Endor, we see Tectors, and anything smaller won't be fit to stand anywhere near the line of battle.

We see a single Tector class, presumably, but that doesn't mean that the Empire should have 10,000 of them to their 20,000 ISDs. My point was that you seem to be massively overestimating the numbers of capital ships other than ISDs, given how rarely we see them. There likely are other designs in service to some degree, but they aren't prevalent enough to be a symbol of Imperial power.

Rhadamantus, the problem with your post is the total lack of context. Why did you select the numbers you chose? How do you estimate the needs of the Imperial fleet? Should they invest in numerous light ships (say, gunboats little or no bigger than the Millenium Falcon)? Should they invest in fewer, heavier ships? How many superheavy dreadnoughts do they need, and why?

One possibility is that the Empire uses ISD sized ships almost exclusively because it prevents them from being in a position in which they can be outgunned by local militaries.

Han's comment indicates that Executor class ships are fairly common as command ships, but the manner in which he is doing so was obviously trying to make everyone feel better, which just as easily indicates the opposite. I personally doubt there are more than a dozen in the entire galaxy.

Perhaps the Empire uses such ships purely for local patrol missions (and therefore has them in vast numbers), but does not routinely redeploy them to cover planets or sectors they don't care about.

Vader's personal squadron is the one that chases Leia to Tatooine, attacks Hoth, and visits Bespin, after all. It might well be made up entirely of relatively heavy ships (so that there is little risk of anyone daring to shoot back at his command). That doesn't mean light ships are not operating off screen. But if the light ships are all permanently attached to local force commands, then we wouldn't see them in places the Rebellion normally operates, precisely because the Rebels would not choose to operate in Imperial-patrolled space if they could help it!

Following on from the above, another possibility is that most smaller ships are under the control of planetary militias to some degree, leaving them free to deal with things like pirates on their own in a fashion similar to the US Coast Guard. It would explain where the Rebel Alliance gets most of its fleet, and why only its Mon Cal cruisers are in the same league as ISDs.

[Adam Reynolds]

I said part of this in the other thread, but I will repeat it here more specifically.

People want to think that Star Wars fleets should be absolutely massive, but we never actually see any evidence of this, with Coruscant as the only notable example. As the lone outlier, it would make more sense that this is the do or die battle for the CIS, in which they committed the overwhelming majority of their fleet. Notice that after losing at Coruscant, Grievous knew that he was doomed militarily.

There should logically be a reason why this is the case. I suspect that it is due to fuel prices making large scale fleets fleets problematic, due to the power requirements.

When Han wanted 10,000 credits to transport Luke and Obi-Wan to Alderaan, Luke commented that buying a ship would be just as cheap. Presumably the fuel is more expensive than the ship. This also fits with the sarcastic comment by Watto that it would be cheaper for Qui-Gon to buy a replacement ship than a replacement hyperdrive. Expensive fuel also fits with Han operating as closely to the margins as he does.

It would also fit the fact that no one bothers to ever use old warships designs. Even the cash strapped Rebel Alliance uses new fighter designs rather than Clone Wars surplus. Presumably this is due to the fact that it is actually cheaper to use more survivable designs that are more likely to come back with more than an empty fuel tank.

Exotic fuel also explains why the second Death Star was so much bigger and yet built ten times faster, the limitation to the first DS was not industrial capacity as much as it was fuel. The second went with a larger and more efficient reactor design, that took up vastly more space, which is also generally consistent with real life fusion reactors designed by anyone other than Lockheed Martin.

[NecronLord]

It would also fit the fact that no one bothers to ever use old warships designs. Even the cash strapped Rebel Alliance uses new fighter designs rather than Clone Wars surplus. Presumably this is due to the fact that it is actually cheaper to use more survivable designs that are more likely to come back with more than an empty fuel tank.

For what it's worth, Y-wings are an exception, in that they're Clone Wars, but the Rebel version is cut down, as if they wanted to minimize the mass of the thing.

[Crazedwraith]

When Han wanted 10,000 credits to transport Luke and Obi-Wan to Alderaan, Luke commented that buying a ship would be just as cheap. Presumably the fuel is more expensive than the ship. This also fits with the sarcastic comment by Watto that it would be cheaper for Qui-Gon to buy a replacement ship than a replacement hyperdrive. Expensive fuel also fits with Han operating as closely to the margins as he does.

Not sure I follow your logic with the leap to 'it must be fuel!' here.

Han's response to Luke's statement was 'but who's going to fly it kid?' not 'who's going to fuel it kid?' Implies to me that 10,00 credits is enough to buy and fuel a ship at least for a trip for Tatooine to Alderaan. Otherwise Han would have pointed out it was just impossible for them to get there with their own ship.

Eta: As to the OP, you seem to have borrowed the designations from Eleventh Century Remnant's Hull 271 verse. So this is not just fanfic, but fanfic of fanfic.

[AniThyng]

Hilariously given the actual usn today I think it would be more likely to have 3 Burke's chasing pirates than 3 LCSs...

[Galvatron]

I don't know about fuel, but scarce resources like thorilide and tibanna have been directly linked to Imperial weaponry in the new EU. That might explain why starships are abundant, but warships are not.

[Adam Reynolds]

For what it's worth, Y-wings are an exception, in that they're Clone Wars, but the Rebel version is cut down, as if they wanted to minimize the mass of the thing.

They can't possibly be the same version used during The Clone Wars. The Clone Wars model had a gunner and was more of a dagger shape design. They are no more the same design than TFA X-wings are the same as those from the OT.

Not sure I follow your logic with the leap to 'it must be fuel!' here.

Han's response to Luke's statement was 'but who's going to fly it kid?' not 'who's going to fuel it kid?' Implies to me that 10,00 credits is enough to buy and fuel a ship at least for a trip for Tatooine to Alderaan. Otherwise Han would have pointed out it was just impossible for them to get there with their own ship.

Obviously 10,000 would be for a fueled ship. Luke, being a pilot with a desire to get offworld, likely would keep up to speed on something like this. Another issue is the fact that Obi-Wan offered them 2,000 credits, meaning that was likely a truly reasonable fair. If a ship can be bought for 1/5 the price of fare something must be eating up the cost.

Hilariously given the actual usn today I think it would be more likely to have 3 Burke's chasing pirates than 3 LCSs...

True, but if the USN had a hundred LCS hulls lying around, they wouldn't be using Burkes to chase pirates. In the analogy of this hypothetical force structure they have that.

I don't know about fuel, but scarce resources like thorilide and tibanna have been directly linked to Imperial weaponry in the new EU. That might explain why starships are abundant, but warships are not.

That was also an element that inspired this theory. But I haven't actually read any of those sources and Wookiepedia is mostly useless when it comes to the new EU and on technical issues in general.

[biostem]

IIRC, Luke made the "10,000 Credit" comment before we knew about all the upgrades that the Falcon had in it - it may very well be the case that a base model YT-1300 of the sort of age that the Falcon was, would cost under 10K, even if fully fueled.

[NecronLord]

For what it's worth, Y-wings are an exception, in that they're Clone Wars, but the Rebel version is cut down, as if they wanted to minimize the mass of the thing.

They can't possibly be the same version used during The Clone Wars. The Clone Wars model had a gunner and was more of a dagger shape design. They are no more the same design than TFA X-wings are the same as those from the OT.

If you're geeky enough to know that you're geeky enough to know that several varieties of Rebel Y-wing have been presented in EU media, including two-seater versions.



Based on early McQuarrie work, Y-wings with copilots have cropped up as far back as Splinter of the Mind's Eye, as well as the much-reviled Holiday Special, and in other, more reputable sources such as WEG books.

You're also geeky enough to be being deliberately obtuse as you almost certainly know that things like 'ulgies' exist



The idea that the rebel craft are re-built clone wars vessels has been floating around for a while now in official sources, and the substantial differences necessitate a rebuild, but do not disprove that provenance.

[MKSheppard]

The Fleet Admiral is head of the entire Imperial navy, and the numbers are how many are under their command.

Wrong. There are twelve grand admirals (GADM) who run the imperial navy.\

Fleet Admirals command at minimum 6 x Star Destroyers and 390 x Combat Starships.

[biostem]

It doesn't seem too far fetched that they'd strip off all the "dressing", ditch all the extra machinery and mass for the gunner, and just fix the top guns forward...

[MKSheppard]

It doesn't seem too far fetched that they'd strip off all the "dressing", ditch all the extra machinery and mass for the gunner, and just fix the top guns forward...

Long ago; the "back story" was....

due to the rebel mechanics having to constantly work on these old craft; they just left off the hull plating. Since it was too much work to put it on and take it off each time something broke.

As for Two Man vs One Man:

The Alliance employs two basic Y-wing models, the BTL-A4 and the BTL-S3. The S3 is the two-man variant. It has superior shields to the A4, as well as better accuracy with its ion cannon (directly controlled by the gunner).

[Patroklos]

The Empire had 3 ISDs chasing the Millennium Falcon off Tatooine. That would be like the US Navy using nothing but the Burke class to blockade smuggling ships when the smaller and faster LCS would not only be a better use of resources but would also be more effective as it is faster.

Having been on said Burkes many times while chasing down open 20 foot outboard Somali pirate vessels personally, this does happen. And sure you could use an LCS if its there (they suck, I would still use a Burke), even if they were currently deployed in force there will still be times when a Burke just happens to be who is there.

1.) They were three ISDs from the personal reserve of Grand Moff Tarkin, the most powerful person besides the Emperor himself, which are in turn commanded by Darth Vader. Again, we should assume the forces these people use are the best the Empire has to offer.

2.) Smaller vessels may not be the best here for two reasons. As this was a pursuit in space there is every reason to believe larger vessels are actually faster vessels or it could be a function of the speed of an ISD hyperdrive. We see ISDs and the Executor chase down the Millenium Falcon at sublight speeds on multiple occasions, it only escaping through using hyperdrive. On top of that they were trying to capture the Tanative, not destroy it (which they could have easily done). That likely means using a ship with a docking bay large enough to pull in the corvette and a ship with the stormtroopers to storm it (and with the plans intact (to prove you actually recovered them) and Leia alive (to sort of prove Alderaan's treason).

3.) They did not chase down the Tanative with three ISDs, they did it with one. The one that happened to have Vader on it, who happened to be the person in charge of finding the plans. See how that works?

We see three Star Destroyers later. There are plenty of reasons for those additional ships to be there at this point, but the most important ones are A.) The Empire now knows the plans are on this planet, and they need to keep them from leaving that planet at the very least B.) They need ground forces to kick in doors and actually find the plans, something ISDs have a supply of that smaller warships probably don't.

4.) There is no reason to assume Tatooine actually has smaller vessels around that patrol it regularly. Given the presence of Jabba there, it is likely to me that Tatooine is so backwards and backwater they rarely see an Imperial presence of any kind. Or Jabba just bribes them to keep them away.

5.) Even if local forces were close by, this was a pursuit. You generally pursue with what you have nearby where the chase starts, not where the chase ends up (if you even know that until the last second). We have no idea how the intercept of the Tanative transpired or how long the chase has gone on when the movie starts.

6.) The Death Star is a black project, and one that directly challenges the power of the Senate and with it the constellation of powerful core worlds who control it. This means you might not want to use local forces if they are available because you can't risk anyone exposing the project before your grand introduction. You use your own, loyal, personal ships/regiments. This also helps if you are wrong and just destroyed a high level core world diplomatic vessel/kidnapped Leia for nothing, you can disappear the situation and avoid the bad PR.

What four classes?

Imperial/Executor/Tector/Communications Ship seen out of the Emperor's window.

We see a single Tector class, presumably, but that doesn't mean that the Empire should have 10,000 of them to their 20,000 ISDs. My point was that you seem to be massively overestimating the numbers of capital ships other than ISDs, given how rarely we see them. There likely are other designs in service to some degree, but they aren't prevalent enough to be a symbol of Imperial power.

There is nothing that actually disproves your position in the movies, and I don't think its unreasonable to have. In fact, for those who prefer a more tight and simple story having the forces we see in ESB and ROJ be the bulk of the Imperial Navy this view helps to tie things up in a nice little bow.

The problem is that the scope of the Star Wars galaxy is what it is, and that means everything we see is small fraction of the Imperial fleet. There being more ships like Tectors and what not does not support your position, it refutes it. The more ISDs and other class ships there are, the less unlikely it is that Tarkin and Vader can have their high end 99% ISD fleet. They are not breaking the Empire by having a gold plated squadron of a couple dozen ISDs and an Executor.

Han's comment indicates that Executor class ships are fairly common as command ships, but the manner in which he is doing so was obviously trying to make everyone feel better, which just as easily indicates the opposite. I personally doubt there are more than a dozen in the entire galaxy.

Possible, or he actually is being nonchalant and he is basically rolling his eyes at Luke. In that case I'd say he is understating just how many of them there are.

Following on from the above, another possibility is that most smaller ships are under the control of planetary militias to some degree, leaving them free to deal with things like pirates on their own in a fashion similar to the US Coast Guard. It would explain where the Rebel Alliance gets most of its fleet, and why only its Mon Cal cruisers are in the same league as ISDs.

Agreed, its a good possibility this is the case.