So who gets the Death Star II?

[Purple]

Jerjerrod a rival? I always thought he was terrified of Vader.

In fact, I could have sworn I read somewhere that Jerjerrod was deliberately selected to command the Death Star because he was not only a competent administrator, but also because he lacked the imagination and ambition to be a serious threat to the Emperor.

Or something to that effect. I could be wrong.

He does not have to be a rival in the sense that he contests Vader for power. Only in the sense that he is unwilling to ally with him against the emperor.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Just have a small army of droid engineers design a force-specific system that only a force user can actually use; then destroy the droids afterwards.

EDIT: I'm sure the Jedi in their thousand generations actually designed something like this; so it's not like Palps would be starting from scratch.

The Jade Shadow had a hatch release that could only be controlled through the Force, so it really should have occurred to me, especially given that Obi-Wan could sense Alderaan's destruction through the Force, while en route to the system.

So, the question would become just what is the range at which real-time control of a person/object(as opposed to just sensing something) through the Force is possible.

Unless Palpatine's physical presence aboard or in close proximity to the DS II is also part of the system requirements, which would make the above issue moot.

@Simon_Jester: My issue with that part of the EU aside, but doesn't each being have a unique presence in the Force? If so, then what Shep suggested could be fine tuned so that only Palpatine and Palpatine alone could trigger it.

Moreover, if the knowledge of this fail-safe is restricted to Palpatine and the droids he programs specifically uses for this task(astormech, protocol, and mouse droids would work best for this), any other Force users in his employ, he would reduce the chances of anyone else discovering and exploiting/disabling the fail-safe.

[Simon_Jester]

The Jade Shadow had a hatch release that could only be controlled through the Force, so it really should have occurred to me, especially given that Obi-Wan could sense Alderaan's destruction through the Force, while en route to the system.

I haven't read the late EU so I don't know the details of how the hatch worked.

Anyway... creating a hatch that doesn't open without the Force sounds relatively easy, because you just make it impossible to open without telekinesis. Say, you take a perfectly ordinary doorknob, and weld a steel box over it. Now, no one can open it without cutting the box open (which triggers other security measures), or having telekinetic powers and already knowing the knob is there.

Creating biometrics, or a software lockout, that relies on the Force sounds rather more difficult, especially ones a rival Force-sensitive cannot successfully spoof.

@Simon_Jester: My issue with that part of the EU aside, but doesn't each being have a unique presence in the Force? If so, then what Shep suggested could be fine tuned so that only Palpatine and Palpatine alone could trigger it.

It's ambiguous whether or not this would actually work, in my opinion. Sure, Force users may have unique signatures detectable by other Force sensitives. That doesn't mean their signatures can be reliably catalogued and measured by a machine, since we know canonically that the Force is uniquely associated with biological things rather than mechanical things.

Moreover, if the knowledge of this fail-safe is restricted to Palpatine and the droids he programs specifically uses for this task(astormech, protocol, and mouse droids would work best for this), any other Force users in his employ, he would reduce the chances of anyone else discovering and exploiting/disabling the fail-safe.

True in principle, but the various lesser Force users in the Imperial state are so tightly integrated into the top levels of governance that it would be almost impossible to keep them from finding out in the long run.

[MKSheppard]

@Simon_Jester: My issue with that part of the EU aside, but doesn't each being have a unique presence in the Force? If so, then what Shep suggested could be fine tuned so that only Palpatine and Palpatine alone could trigger it.

Moreover, if the knowledge of this fail-safe is restricted to Palpatine and the droids he programs specifically uses for this task(astormech, protocol, and mouse droids would work best for this), any other Force users in his employ, he would reduce the chances of anyone else discovering and exploiting/disabling the fail-safe.

Also, you can combine this fail safe with two factor authentication with Palpatine's biometric signature as others have mentioned before from known secure locations (DS II throne room, or his throne room on Coruscant) to ensure it's secure.

Making it require the force as one level of authentication makes it much more secure; as I don't know what the % of population that's force sensitive enough to qualify as "jedi" is. It certainly isn't that high; given how fast the Jedi became legends and myth after their annihilation in ROTS.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

True in principle, but the various lesser Force users in the Imperial state are so tightly integrated into the top levels of governance that it would be almost impossible to keep them from finding out in the long run.

How, if Palpatine personally programs the droids which do the actual work? Astromechs and protocol droids seem to be self-programming to an extent, and can be instructed using plain-language Basic commands, while a mouse droid, a robot version of the inter-departmental memo, if that part of the EU's to be believed, shouldn't be that difficult for someone who's not a tech to program. And, those three droid types are fairly ubiquitous throughout the SW galaxy, and would appear to be the least bit out of place on the Death Star.

In doing the work himself, he restricts the circle of knowledge to himself, and the droids he's using, and those droids are going to either be destroyed, or have their memories wiped(which is of variable effectiveness), leaving only Palpatine in the know.

Besides, where are the remaining Imperial Force users much of the time; out roaming the back end of space as roving troubleshooters, with few opportunities to check in with the boss, other than by HoloNet. And, knowing Palpatine, those Force users, especially Vader, will be too busy fighting one another and their non-Force using rivals to devote much of their energies to what the Emperor may or may not be doing. That is part of how he was able to defeat the Jedi, after all.

Also, you can combine this fail safe with two factor authentication with Palpatine's biometric signature as others have mentioned before from known secure locations (DS II throne room, or his throne room on Coruscant) to ensure it's secure.

That's most likely what Palpatine would do. He wasn't the one who relied on the Force alone to get him to where he needed to go, at least not in the prequels.

I don't know what the % of population that's force sensitive enough to qualify as "jedi" is. It certainly isn't that high; given how fast the Jedi became legends and myth after their annihilation in ROTS.

[rant]Too goddamned many. All these light and dark Jedi running round loose in the Rebellion era kinda negates the purpose of making Luke, Leia, Vader, Palps, Obi-Wan and Yoda unique(as well as the purpose of leaving Leia and Luke as the two remaining Jedi), and is a step down the dark path of Jedi/Sith wankery which the EU overindulged.[/rant]

Seriously, EU said 10,000 Jedi before the Purge, and they shouldn't be that much more numerous in the new canon. Also, there are Force traditions other than Jedi/Sith dogma, or those stemming from Jedi/Sith dogma.

[Patroklos]

Honestly I think that the whole Vader vs Jerjerrod thing wasn't Palpatine trusting the later. It was a classic example of a dictator playing one of his top individuals off against the other to sponsor rivalries which ensure they can not unite against him. It's that simple.

This. Dictators have to make it a point to instill fear, and the more casually they can do it the better.

Also, you would be an idiot not to be terrified of Vader, especially if you are aware of his force abilities. No matter how good of a Mk 1 human you are, Vader could always be just as good PLUS force shit. That doesn't mean you can't be a rival though. Just a wary rival.

[RogueIce]

Creating biometrics, or a software lockout, that relies on the Force sounds rather more difficult, especially ones a rival Force-sensitive cannot successfully spoof.

It's ambiguous whether or not this would actually work, in my opinion. Sure, Force users may have unique signatures detectable by other Force sensitives. That doesn't mean their signatures can be reliably catalogued and measured by a machine, since we know canonically that the Force is uniquely associated with biological things rather than mechanical things.

In Rebels there's the Jedi Temple on Lothal, which apparently can at least discern "is Jedi" from "is not Jedi" going by the latest episode. How that works is an exercise for the viewer, but evidently it does.

Ahsoka says she left the Order, thus cannot open it. Or at least, shouldn't open it (it's not her place or something along those lines, she said) because the Inquisitors did force (har har) it open later. But when they did so, it was causing some damage to the Temple and also generated red glowy lines in the ground that weren't there when Kanan and Ezra opened it before.

So while not a lock-out mechanism, at least in this case, something was able to tell the difference on some level based upon who was using it via the Force. But it's not clear at this time how and to what degree.

[Simon_Jester]

That's a fair point... on the other hand, a great deal of what was written in canon about the DS-II predates that episode of Rebels. And the lock on the Jedi Temple door may have been an ancient device whose secrets are now lost (common in Star Wars), or lost specifically to Palpatine (being a Jedi secret he may or may not have ever learned), or may require the active effort of Force users to make it work (in which case either Palpatine does it himself in secret, or enlists others, but can't have droids do it for him).

True in principle, but the various lesser Force users in the Imperial state are so tightly integrated into the top levels of governance that it would be almost impossible to keep them from finding out in the long run.

How, if Palpatine personally programs the droids which do the actual work? Astromechs and protocol droids seem to be self-programming to an extent, and can be instructed using plain-language Basic commands, while a mouse droid, a robot version of the inter-departmental memo, if that part of the EU's to be believed, shouldn't be that difficult for someone who's not a tech to program. And, those three droid types are fairly ubiquitous throughout the SW galaxy, and would appear to be the least bit out of place on the Death Star.

Well, the big problem is that you're placing a lockout in a location that is fairly important and in a place you may foreseeably need to put a Force-sensitive agent. Note that during its sole period of operation, the Death Star I had Vader aboard. Why? Probably to stop any Imperial naval officer from deciding "Emperor Tarkin I" sounded good and blowing up Coruscant.

The Emperor relies on Force-sensitive agents to ensure that the non-Force-using parts of his own government remain in compliance with his will... and there are very few places where enforcing his will is more critical than aboard the Death Star. So there will be many opportunities for Force users to come into close contact with the systems responsible for telling the Death Star to fire, unless Palpatine resides on the station personally.

In doing the work himself, he restricts the circle of knowledge to himself, and the droids he's using, and those droids are going to either be destroyed, or have their memories wiped(which is of variable effectiveness), leaving only Palpatine in the know.

Another part of the problem is: CAN a bunch of droids design a mechanism that uses the Force, aside from something relatively obvious and childish like "a doorknob that can only be turned telekinetically or with exotic equipment?" Droids cannot themselves use the Force or even perceive it, as a rule.

Also, you can combine this fail safe with two factor authentication with Palpatine's biometric signature as others have mentioned before from known secure locations (DS II throne room, or his throne room on Coruscant) to ensure it's secure.

That's most likely what Palpatine would do. He wasn't the one who relied on the Force alone to get him to where he needed to go, at least not in the prequels.

Now, combining Force use with normal biometrics would be prudent and a good precaution. Although anyone who has Palpatine's biometrics is presumably either Palpatine or a clone, and either way he'd have Force ability.

Basically, it's just that relying only on the Force as a way for Palpatine to exercise his lockout on the firing controls is... imprudent.

I don't know what the % of population that's force sensitive enough to qualify as "jedi" is. It certainly isn't that high; given how fast the Jedi became legends and myth after their annihilation in ROTS.

To some extent they were legends even back when they still existed. Witness how panicked the Trade Federation delegates were when they found out Jedi had shown up to contest their blockade, or how when Anakin was a boy he thought no one could kill a Jedi knight.

And, well... after that, there were 15-20 years of time in which the Jedi were, officially, a bunch of tricksters out to overthrow the Emperor and take over the state, after dominating the Republic for far too long and permitting the Republic to decay into a state of helplessness so profound that random separatist movements could trigger something as horrible and large as the Clone Wars. During which time it might have been, ah... unsafe to question the official story, and during which time media evidence of the Jedi actually being scary and powerful was probably heavily redacted.

And even then, it's not like everyone actually forgot about the Jedi, just that there was a public veneer of dismissal of them among, one, the actual Imperial military and, two, the fraction of the population most likely to believe theories about major historical figures and organizations being a hoax (e.g. Han Solo).

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Another part of the problem is: CAN a bunch of droids design a mechanism that uses the Force, aside from something relatively obvious and childish like "a doorknob that can only be turned telekinetically or with exotic equipment?" Droids cannot themselves use the Force or even perceive it, as a rule.

You mean, can they build it, as Palpatine would be doing the actual design(assuming the Sith knew similar techniques)? That's a fair question.

[Simon_Jester]

Shep was suggesting the droids design it.

If the Sith happen to have a device that responds uniquely to a specific user's Force signature, of course, and Palpatine already knows how it works, then having it covertly installed by droids makes sense. Then again, I'm not sure we have any evidence the Sith have such a technology.

[Galvatron]

What you guys are talking about sounds eerily similar to Lord Hethrir's Force-activated lightsaber from The Crystal Star. Then again, I once suggested that Starkiller Base may have began as an Imperial worldcraft, just like the one given to Hethrir by the Emperor.

Who knew that what's arguably the worst novel of the old EU would be so rich with good ideas to plunder.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It may be the worst novel but that doesn't mean there aren't some good ideas in there somewhere.

All this talk of making the security measures Force-sensitive seems a bit unnecessary. Emperor gets failsaef shutdown (or remote override, whatever) hard-coded into the system, tells no-one about it and keeps the codes to himself, with "normal" biometric security. Because anything Force-sensitive is going to arouse suspicion in those same Dark Side users we're trying to secure things against.

Incidentally, the Emperor has done this before: when he gave the SSD Lusankya to Isard, he hard-coded the ship to recognise her as it's commander, something that even getting shot to pieces and rebuilt/refitted by the New Republic didn't change.

[Galvatron]

When it comes to Star Wars, I prefer a wall of separation between the Force and technology. Those silly, wanktastic shadow droids from Dark Empire II are probably what ruined the concept for me.

"...the cyberpilot brains are empowered by the dark side!"

God, those comics were fucking terrible.

[Purple]

You do realize those things are cyborgs? As in there is a living human brain in there wired up to a machine. It's that brain that interacts with the force and not the machine encasing it. If you have an objection to those you might as well have an objection to Vader.

[Galvatron]

I have an objection to the notion that the Force was something that you could spread around like herpes. Dark Empire was filled with that shit.

The cyborg fighters having the brains of dead ace pilots wasn't enough. No, they had to be fueled by DARK LIQUID SCHWARTZ too.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I have an objection to the notion that the Force was something that you could spread around like herpes. Dark Empire was filled with that shit.

The cyborg fighters having the brains of dead ace pilots wasn't enough. No, they had to be fueled by DARK LIQUID SCHWARTZ too.

I think the problem was more with the execution than with the idea in and of itself. I mean, if you think about it Shadow Droids are a pretty natural extension to General Grievous (another character that was interesting in theory but not executed terribly well).

[Purple]

I have an objection to the notion that the Force was something that you could spread around like herpes. Dark Empire was filled with that shit.

The cyborg fighters having the brains of dead ace pilots wasn't enough. No, they had to be fueled by DARK LIQUID SCHWARTZ too.

My guess would be because they are sealed brains in a jar wired up to a hypersonic air-killbot. You need some way to keep them from going insane, brainwashing them and keeping them under control.

[Galvatron]

I have an objection to the notion that the Force was something that you could spread around like herpes. Dark Empire was filled with that shit.

The cyborg fighters having the brains of dead ace pilots wasn't enough. No, they had to be fueled by DARK LIQUID SCHWARTZ too.

My guess would be because they are sealed brains in a jar wired up to a hypersonic air-killbot. You need some way to keep them from going insane, brainwashing them and keeping them under control.

What does that have to with the Force?

All the comic said was that they "empowered by the dark side."

[Purple]

What does that have to with the Force?

Well the force has shown it self as being supremely useful at manipulating minds. I figured that if you were to use anything to achieve said effect it would be the force.

All the comic said was that they "empowered by the dark side."

When you are already using the force might as well add a buff along with the heal spell.

[U.P. Cinnabar]

When it comes to Star Wars, I prefer a wall of separation between the Force and technology. Those silly, wanktastic shadow droids from Dark Empire II are probably what ruined the concept for me.

"...the cyberpilot brains are empowered by the dark side!"

God, those comics were fucking terrible.

Possibly the single worst EU product this side of Legacy Of the Force, because of the clone Emperor bullshit.

That being said, there's no reason why there should be a wall between the Force and technology; technology is just tool use, and Force users do use tools, even Force-enhanced tools, to accomplish their goals.

Where it gets out of hand is the overuse and fanwank of Force-enhanced items, but that, in my opinion, is just a symptom of Force-related fanwankery in general. I'd say there should be more stories where the heroes get accomplish things with a kind word and a good blaster, as opposed to a Force choke and a lightsaber, but I'd probably have someone insisting every random asshole in the Galaxy brandishing lightsabers and using the Force to do backflips and kick the shit out of each other is what makes Star Wars special.

[Galvatron]

That being said, there's no reason why there should be a wall between the Force and technology; technology is just tool use, and Force users do use tools, even Force-enhanced tools, to accomplish their goals.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but what canon examples of Force-enhanced tools did you have in mind?

[U.P. Cinnabar]

Nothing in canon, not anymore.

But, in the EU, you had the Rakatan hyperdrives, the holocrons, the Force-imbued blades the Jed'aii used in the Dawn of the Jedi series, and Vader's armor, to cite a few examples off the top of my head.

And, you're correct, Galvatron, I should have been more specific and said those examples were in EU. I just tend to forget that EU and canon are no longer one and the same.

[Galvatron]

Well, there's new a EU which is canon and a surprisingly large amount of old EU concepts have been referenced in it, but not necessarily in enough detail as to re-canonize every aspect of them.

Thus, Rakatan hyperdrives, holocrons, ancient Jedi blades and Vader's armor may exist in the new EU, but they're not necessarily "Force-imbued" as they were in the old EU.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the restraint the new comics have shown in that regard. They're focusing on the story and characters, not technical minutiae or wank.

[Solauren]

If you go with the deleted scenes as having any relevance (and we might as well since this is all a "what-if?" anyway) Palpatine did have Jerjerrod cock-block Vader from seeing him at one point. So he can't be too unhappy with him. Especially if his "we shall double our efforts" paid off, which it seems to have done so since the superlaser worked as expected.

I forgot about the deleted scenes. I stand corrected on Jerrejod being in line to command the DSII then.

Cock-block Vader enough, even under the Emperor's orders, you end up Force-Choked and dead.

[RogueIce]

the holocrons

Well they're still "Force-related" at the very least, because Cad Bane had to get a Jedi to unlock the Holocron he stole. Whether it's to the same degree as before, where it "senses" the skill of the Force user is unclear. I'd imagine not (IIRC Bane was able to use it fine after it was unlocked, though I don't remember the episodes in precise detail so take with a grain of salt) but clearly there's something to do with the Force going on. Plus the aforementioned Lothal Jedi Temple earlier in this thread.