TFA heroes vs Imperial Prison Block (Spoilers)

[The Romulan Republic]

Technically that's not true. Kylo wishes he were as skilled, disciplined, controlled and powerful as he imagines Vader was. The guy's got a serious case of villain worship.

As noted, this is a terrible mindset for a Force user- so I'd say that as long as Kylo Ren goes around wishing he were as 'great' as Vader, he will never be as 'great' as Vader. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, because while Darth Vader was consumed with self-loathing and anger, he did at least manage to keep his mind on "where he was, what he was doing" in a twisted inversion of Yoda's teachings in Episode V. He was organized and had the confidence to do what he saw fit without angsting about it.

As long as Ren can't do that, he's going to be weak compared to Vader- because the Force flows from inner strength of will and character, and Ren's will and character are deeply flawed in ways not even Anakin's were.

He is especially going to be weak in matters that require a relatively high degree of mental discipline. Like Force-powered telepathy, I imagine.

Now, the counterargument that we have no reason to assume Vader would have used the Force to probe Ren's mind at all... that is a much better argument and I have no counter to it.

Kylo and Anakin are both bastards, but in terms of self-confidence, they actually have the exact opposite problem- Anakin had too much, and got reckless and arrogant, while Kylo has too little.

Vader stands out compared to a lot of Dark Side users in that he strikes a good balance. As discussed in this thread, he is confident (or at least appears to be so), but he is also focussed, deliberate, and not reckless.

Look at his fights with Luke.

In Empire Strikes Back, Luke briefly gets the best of him in their first round. After that, Vader does not confront him in a fair sabre duel, but instead attacks from ambush and pounds him from a distance with telekinetic attacks.

In their Return of the Jedi duel, Luke goes to high ground like Kenobi did on Mustafar, leaping onto that overhead walkway. Instead of trying to jump or climb after him, or using some massive Force attack to bring him down, Vader just throws his sabre, bringing the walkway down and regaining the advantage with minimal effort.

In other words... Vader fights smart. Next to him, Kylo Ren comes off as a clumsy amateur, regardless of how much power either has.

[LastShadow]

Technically that's not true. Kylo wishes he were as skilled, disciplined, controlled and powerful as he imagines Vader was. The guy's got a serious case of villain worship.

As noted, this is a terrible mindset for a Force user- so I'd say that as long as Kylo Ren goes around wishing he were as 'great' as Vader, he will never be as 'great' as Vader. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, because while Darth Vader was consumed with self-loathing and anger, he did at least manage to keep his mind on "where he was, what he was doing" in a twisted inversion of Yoda's teachings in Episode V. He was organized and had the confidence to do what he saw fit without angsting about it.

As long as Ren can't do that, he's going to be weak compared to Vader- because the Force flows from inner strength of will and character, and Ren's will and character are deeply flawed in ways not even Anakin's were.

He is especially going to be weak in matters that require a relatively high degree of mental discipline. Like Force-powered telepathy, I imagine.

Now, the counterargument that we have no reason to assume Vader would have used the Force to probe Ren's mind at all... that is a much better argument and I have no counter to it.

Kylo and Anakin are both bastards, but in terms of self-confidence, they actually have the exact opposite problem- Anakin had too much, and got reckless and arrogant, while Kylo has too little.

Vader stands out compared to a lot of Dark Side users in that he strikes a good balance. As discussed in this thread, he is confident (or at least appears to be so), but he is also focussed, deliberate, and not reckless.

Look at his fights with Luke.

In Empire Strikes Back, Luke briefly gets the best of him in their first round. After that, Vader does not confront him in a fair sabre duel, but instead attacks from ambush and pounds him from a distance with telekinetic attacks.

In their Return of the Jedi duel, Luke goes to high ground like Kenobi did on Mustafar, leaping onto that overhead walkway. Instead of trying to jump or climb after him, or using some massive Force attack to bring him down, Vader just throws his sabre, bringing the walkway down and regaining the advantage with minimal effort.

In other words... Vader fights smart. Next to him, Kylo Ren comes off as a clumsy amateur, regardless of how much power either has.

It should also be noted that Kylo has serious anger issues, and they have to be fairly well documented anger issues, like he pitches a fit at the drop of a hat. To the point where in the movie when pitching a fit some of his stormtroopers turn heel and walk away.

Vader/Anakin had some serious rage, but he only flew off the handle a few times, his moms death, learning he killed padme. But other times he really only released his rage when somebody belittled his power. He was always cool calm and fairly calculated. In his youth he was rather boisterous, and cheery (when harassing obi-wan).