Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

[Purple]

To be clear, when I say they don't belong there, I mean the actors don't belong in the movie, because they can't act. They can't even make something simple like "Roger, Bravo Leader" sound cool. They sound like doofuses. The horrendous costume design doesn't help. Those goggles ...

I know what you meant. My point is that this might well have been the intention to show these guys are essentially an incompetent parade militia.

[Vympel]

It's not about what is considered "good". People continue to flood the theaters watching the Transformers movies despite them being considered as a horrible film by every critic. Surprising, there are a lot of people out there that don't mind enjoying "bad" movies.

Except the original trilogy were not bad films. The prequels, for the most part, were. That's the point.

I do enjoy a movie with good acting and excellent writing, especially the ones that are set in space. But if I am looking for such movies, I will look for movies like Gravity, The Martian and etc. I don't go into a cinema featuring Star Wars expecting the kind of qualities, just like how I don't go into a movie like Fast and Furious expecting good writing or excellent acting. If a Fast and Furious movie have excellent acting and writing, but boring car races, I will walk out of the movie feeling bored because that is not I paid for.

If your'e implying that Star Wars is meant to be poorly written garbage like Fast & Furious, I don't know what to tell you. Your standard for what makes a good Star Wars movie is awful. And hey, that's your personal taste, can't change it - but I think your personal taste is pretty terrible, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised you think TPM is a better Star Wars movie.

I go into a movie called Star Wars expecting epic space battles ( especially on a scale unmatched by other sci-fi movies) and worlds that felt grander and different from other sci-fi/fantasy movies. The old Star Wars movies did that by shooting in locations that felt grander than most sci-fi films of the time. Take Hoth for example. How many blockbuster movies were shot near the Artic circle at the time?

No one lauded the Star Wars films because of their 'epic space battles on a scale unmatched by other sci-fi movies'. They were lauded because they had an excellent cast, excellent script, excellent direction, a great story, and great effects. That is what made them famous and a permanent feature of Western popular culture. Your expectation of what a Star Wars movie should provide is both ridiculously specific, expressly disregards any aspect of actual film quality and quite frankly - leaving aside its a question of your (horrible) personal taste - doesn't even apply to anything we ever saw in the films, with the sole exception of the Battle of Coruscant and Battle of Geonosis - i.e. two battles in six films.

You talk about TPM's supposedly amazing scale where the space battle at the end was a literal handful of Naboo fighters against one enemy ship. This is not actually a bad thing. It was just executed poorly. Bigger is not inherently better.

I was hoping Ep 7 will be able to match the visuals we saw in Avatar, and on a much grander scale. Instead we have a movie that tries too hard to recreate the feeling of ANH ( not even ROTJ). The story we saw in TFA could easily be depicted on a TCW cartoon budget.

Sure it could have. Exceedingly poorly, with a fraction of the quality in every single department that makes a good action scene. This is just an absurd argument.

Why should I pay money to see the space battle in TFA when I can enjoy the space battles in TCW?

I'm sorry, I just can't take this sort of nonsense seriously. The space battles in TCW are laughably shit compared to those in TFA (and ANH, and ROTJ, and TESB), by any objective measure. That's an inevitable consequence of what happens when you have a feature film budget to do spend on effects and incredibly skilled directors, editors and sound people, and the battle is woven directly into the script in a compelling manner.

[ray245]

It's not about what is considered "good". People continue to flood the theaters watching the Transformers movies despite them being considered as a horrible film by every critic. Surprising, there are a lot of people out there that don't mind enjoying "bad" movies.

Except the original trilogy were not bad films. The prequels, for the most part, were. That's the point.

They aren't exactly the pinacle of story-writing and acting either. I think you are putting the orignals on a much higher pedestral than they really are.

If your'e implying that Star Wars is meant to be poorly written garbage like Fast & Furious, I don't know what to tell you. Your standard for what makes a good Star Wars movie is awful. And hey, that's your personal taste, can't change it - but I think your personal taste is pretty terrible, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised you think TPM is a better Star Wars movie.

If the only thing you have to say is tell everyone about how your taste is superior to others, then there's hardly any room for any discussion. I did not imply the old Star Wars films are poorly written. Not at all. All I am stating was they aren't exactly the pinnacle of writing in cinema.

Good/=enjoyment.

No one lauded the Star Wars films because of their 'epic space battles on a scale unmatched by other sci-fi movies'. They were lauded because they had an excellent cast, excellent script, excellent direction, a great story, and great effects.

If that is the case, the battles we saw in Star Wars won't be a highlight at all, nor would they be so fondly remembered. People continues to praise the battles of Yavin, Endor and Hoth till this day.

The scale is intergal to Star Wars, together with the script, story and cast.

That is what made them famous and a permanent feature of Western popular culture. Your expectation of what a Star Wars movie should provide is both ridiculously specific, expressly disregards any aspect of actual film quality and quite frankly - leaving aside its a question of your (horrible) personal taste - doesn't even apply to anything we ever saw in the films, with the sole exception of the Battle of Coruscant and Battle of Geonosis - i.e. two battles in six films.

I'm talking about popularity and enjoyment. Your argument about the quality of a film did not explain why movies like Transformers and F&F remains popular with the public despite their poor writing. I'm making an argument to explain why, and I am saying the prequels were enjoyable to a large audience, even if they aren't "good" by your standards.

We aren't living in a world where good films earn the most money. We are living in a world where films that gave the audience the most enjoyment, not matter how good or bad they are, make the most money.

You talk about TPM's supposedly amazing scale where the space battle at the end was a literal handful of Naboo fighters against one enemy ship. This is not actually a bad thing. It was just executed poorly. Bigger is not inherently better.

Better than a handful of fighters going up against the enemy new battle station while failing to explain why they didn't get crushed immediately. At least with ANH, we understood that the Imperials were too arrogant to believe the rebels could win.

We did not get this in TFA.

Sure it could have. Exceedingly poorly, with a fraction of the quality in every single department that makes a good action scene. This is just an absurd argument.

And yet I enjoyed the sequences and many episodes in TCW more than the one in TFA. ( I'll bet you are just going to say this is due to poor taste)

I'm sorry, I just can't take this sort of nonsense seriously. The space battles in TCW are laughably shit compared to those in TFA (and ANH, and ROTJ, and TESB), by any objective measure. That's an inevitable consequence of what happens when you have a feature film budget to do spend on effects and incredibly skilled directors, editors and sound people, and the battle is woven directly into the script in a compelling manner.

Lol, I can question your taste if you think the space battles in TFA is actually good. In fact, there's hardly a space battle at all, with most of the battles happening in the atmosphere. The entire battle at the end was a mere afterthought, with the aim of recreating the battle in ANH. Bigger budget don't necessarily produce better scenes.

The battle is hardly woven well into the script.




Look, I am not saying you can't find TFA enjoyable. There are many people out there that do, judging by the box office and the critical reception alone. Do I think that TFA is a horrible film? No. But that doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

The way you are arguing and defending TFA, it seems to me that you can't accept any reasons put forward by people who genuinely did not enjoy the film. I am interested if you think there are any flaws in TFA at all, or are you just being a massive fan that want to shut any criticism of your favourite movie.

[Vympel]

They aren't exactly the pinacle of story-writing and acting either. I think you are putting the orignals on a much higher pedestral than they really are.

Not at all. That's why they're much loved and the shitty movies like Fast & Furious and Transformers you're trying to lump them in with aren't. Not even Avatar approaches their enduring popularity - even though its the highest grossing movie of all time, it had no enduring popular culture impact whatsoever.

If the only thing you have to say is tell everyone about how your taste is superior to others, then there's hardly any room for any discussion. I did not imply the old Star Wars films are poorly written. Not at all. All I am stating was they aren't exactly the pinnacle of writing in cinema.

Good/=enjoyment.

You lumped them in with Fast and the Furious, did you not?

If that is the case, the battles we saw in Star Wars won't be a highlight at all, nor would they be so fondly remembered. People continues to praise the battles of Yavin, Endor and Hoth till this day.

The scale is intergal to Star Wars, together with the script, story and cast.

The battles are part of a greater whole. They fall into nearly every thing I just listed. They aren't seperate.

I'm talking about popularity and enjoyment. Your argument about the quality of a film did not explain why movies like Transformers and F&F remains popular with the public despite their poor writing. I'm making an argument to explain why, and I am saying the prequels were enjoyable to a large audience, even if they aren't "good" by your standards.

We aren't living in a world where good films earn the most money. We are living in a world where films that gave the audience the most enjoyment, not matter how good or bad they are, make the most money.

You're not making an argument to explain why, you're espousing your personal taste as to why you enjoyed TPM more than TFA. Like I said, that's your personal taste, but as a matter of judging a film, I think that's a bad joke.

Better than a handful of fighters going up against the enemy new battle station while failing to explain why they didn't get crushed immediately. At least with ANH, we understood that the Imperials were too arrogant to believe the rebels could win.

Did we? Or is that a rationalisation you made up after the fact? Why should they get crushed immediately? Any particular reason? I can't think of a single one. Can you give me a reason? Before you do so, explain where it comes from, organically, from the film - not an assumption you invented in your head.

And yet I enjoyed the sequences and many episodes in TCW more than the one in TFA. ( I'll bet you are just going to say this is due to poor taste)

Yes, it is. When talking about the quality of the film, its always a matter of competing tastes. It is necessarily subjective.

Lol, I can question your taste if you think the space battles in TFA is actually good. In fact, there's hardly a space battle at all, with most of the battles happening in the atmosphere.

Who gives a shit? What's the difference?

The entire battle at the end was a mere afterthought, with the aim of recreating the battle in ANH. Bigger budget don't necessarily produce better scenes.

The battle is hardly woven well into the script.

Give me an argument as to why it wasn't. By way of analogy of the sort of analysis you should try and engage in to back this sort of argument up, the Phantom Menace was weighed down with four seperate battles in its last act, two of which were totally superfluous and could've been written out of the movie entirely:

- The battle to capture the Viceroy. Totally pointless.
- The battle to destroy the Droid Control Ship. Actually matters.
- The battle between the Jedi and Darth Maul. Actually matters (though why Maul needed to be there is not exactly clear).
- The battle between the Gungans and the Droid Army. Totally pointless.

Look, I am not saying you can't find TFA enjoyable. There are many people out there that do, judging by the box office and the critical reception alone. Do I think that TFA is a horrible film? No. But that doesn't mean I have to enjoy it.

The way you are arguing and defending TFA, it seems to me that you can't accept any reasons put forward by people who genuinely did not enjoy the film. I am interested if you think there are any flaws in TFA at all, or are you just being a massive fan that want to shut any criticism of your favourite movie.

I've already indicated my thoughts as to its flaws - real, film writing flaws, not inane, made up flaws like "the movie didn't have enough Base Delta Zeroes" or "the underdog should've been defeated". Chiefly, the movie's pacing is too fast, making it seem like Abrams is terrified of boring the audience, leading to hardly any scene where characters can sit and take a beat before moving on to the next crisis. We lose exposition this way, and it robs scenes of some of their impact - e.g. the destruction of the Republic capital and the death of Leia's aide (deleted scene).

[biostem]

Just a small tangent - it would have been interesting if, in TPM, they captured the Viceroy before the droid control ship was destroyed, had him issue the stand-down order, AND the Nabooians actually arrested and tried him locally - they did capture him on their land while in the act of invading their planet...

[Galvatron]

Give me an argument as to why it wasn't. By way of analogy of the sort of analysis you should try and engage in to back this sort of argument up, the Phantom Menace was weighed down with four seperate battles in its last act, two of which were totally superfluous and could've been written out of the movie entirely:

- The battle to capture the Viceroy. Totally pointless.
- The battle to destroy the Droid Control Ship. Actually matters.
- The battle between the Jedi and Darth Maul. Actually matters (though why Maul needed to be there is not exactly clear).
- The battle between the Gungans and the Droid Army. Totally pointless.

Hey, it was "stylistically designed to be that way." Lucas had no other choice.

I've already indicated my thoughts as to its flaws - real, film writing flaws, not inane, made up flaws like "the movie didn't have enough Base Delta Zeroes" or "the underdog should've been defeated".

Yeah, the "not enough politics" argument is like that for me. To me, the politics are about as welcome as canon statements about 200 gigaton turbolasers.

[ray245]

Not at all. That's why they're much loved and the shitty movies like Fast & Furious and Transformers you're trying to lump them in with aren't. Not even Avatar approaches their enduring popularity - even though its the highest grossing movie of all time, it had no enduring popular culture impact whatsoever.

Considering that F&F continues to make billions of dollars while other "better" and more beloved IP fails to do so, I would say they still have a fair bit of popularity. If audience continues to come back again and again for the sequels, it is hard to say they aren't loved.

You lumped them in with Fast and the Furious, did you not?

To demonstrate a point that large amount of people can enjoy a movie for things BESIDES good writing and acting.

The battles are part of a greater whole. They fall into nearly every thing I just listed. They aren't seperate.

And if the battles aren't enjoyable, there will be people who don't enjoy the movie as much. An action movie with excellent writing but poor action can still be boring to many audience.

You're not making an argument to explain why, you're espousing your personal taste as to why you enjoyed TPM more than TFA. Like I said, that's your personal taste, but as a matter of judging a film, I think that's a bad joke.

I am making an argument to explain how films can make money even if they don't have good acting or good writing. You couldn't explain it with your arguments.

Did we? Or is that a rationalisation you made up after the fact? Why should they get crushed immediately? Any particular reason? I can't think of a single one. Can you give me a reason? Before you do so, explain where it comes from, organically, from the film - not an assumption you invented in your head.

Considering you are assaulting an big battle station that is supposedly well defended with a large number of troops and fighters ( shown in a previous scene), shouldn't you show a decent assault force?

Yes, it is. When talking about the quality of the film, its always a matter of competing tastes. It is necessarily subjective.

Yet enjoyment could be derived in many different ways.

Who gives a shit? What's the difference?

Not much other than the battle felt tacked on and utterly boring?

Give me an argument as to why it wasn't. By way of analogy of the sort of analysis you should try and engage in to back this sort of argument up, the Phantom Menace was weighed down with four seperate battles in its last act, two of which were totally superfluous and could've been written out of the movie entirely:

Because Starkiller base isn't the big overarching plot, and how late it was introduced in the movie? In ANH and ROTJ, the death stars were introduced very early, and their destruction lies in the very heart of the plot. The introduction scene in ANH happened because of the stolen plans. ROTJ introduced the Death Star in the very first scene.

In TFA, the focus was never about trying to destroy the death Star. It's merely about finding Luke. This is a story that does not require any massive battle at all.

I've already indicated my thoughts as to its flaws - real, film writing flaws, not inane, made up flaws like "the movie didn't have enough Base Delta Zeroes" or "the underdog should've been defeated". Chiefly, the movie's pacing is too fast, making it seem like Abrams is terrified of boring the audience, leading to hardly any scene where characters can sit and take a beat before moving on to the next crisis. We lose exposition this way, and it robs scenes of some of their impact - e.g. the destruction of the Republic capital and the death of Leia's aide (deleted scene).

I'm not talking about whether there is enough base delta Zeroes or the underdogs should be defeated. I am talking about making movies that create a sense of suspense and tension by making the antagonist a credible threat. If we saw an army of 100,000 orcs defeated by 10 Superheroes, from a dramatic point of view, the battle sequence isn't exciting because it feels that the army isn't a credible threat at all.

The tension in the Battle of Endor works in part because we saw the Rebels throwing their entire fleet in a last ditch attempt to kill the Death Star. It creates the idea that how difficult it is to try and destroy the second Death Star that they cannot repeat the trick of sending a mere handful of fighters.

It shows that the Empire isn't underestimating the Rebels this time round.

[Channel72]

Because Starkiller base isn't the big overarching plot, and how late it was introduced in the movie? In ANH and ROTJ, the death stars were introduced very early, and their destruction lies in the very heart of the plot. The introduction scene in ANH happened because of the stolen plans. ROTJ introduced the Death Star in the very first scene.

Yeah, I agree that the Starkiller Base thing was the weakest part of TFA. The main problem is that the overall plot structure is pretty much copied from ANH, except the MacGuffin is no longer the Super-weapon plans... instead the MacGuffin is finding Luke Skywalker. And yet there's a Superweapon anyway - but it's just not very tightly integrated into the plot and the heroes don't really even find out about it until late in the movie, so it's not as effective.

Still, I mean, if we're comparing TFA to Phantom Menace, there's simply no comparison. The ending space battle in Phantom Menace took things to a whole new level of absurdity, with a little kid accidentally blowing up a spaceship via juvenile antics. It was almost like some kind of sick parody of Star Wars.

[Channel72]

Anyway, since the whole Phantom Menace thing is being brought up again, I found a really interesting review of Phantom Menace:

http://web.archive.org/web/200003051912 ... _rev.shtml

It goes through all the usual motions: Jar Jar sucks, plot barely makes any sense, too much politics, too much CGI, blah blah, etc. - all the usual criticisms we've heard countless times from many critics. The funny thing is this review is actually from like, before the movie was released. It's from somebody who saw it in May 1999 in a pre-screening, two days before it was released publicly. It's just kind of funny that he said the same shit as everyone else, before anyone else really said it. It looks like this is probably the earliest documented example of many common TPM criticisms.

[Vympel]

Considering that F&F continues to make billions of dollars while other "better" and more beloved IP fails to do so, I would say they still have a fair bit of popularity. If audience continues to come back again and again for the sequels, it is hard to say they aren't loved.

I didn't say Fast & Furious weren't popular. I've been pretty consistently saying that box office doesn't actually matter.

To demonstrate a point that large amount of people can enjoy a movie for things BESIDES good writing and acting.

I didn't say they couldn't.

And if the battles aren't enjoyable, there will be people who don't enjoy the movie as much. An action movie with excellent writing but poor action can still be boring to many audience.

Yes.

I am making an argument to explain how films can make money even if they don't have good acting or good writing. You couldn't explain it with your arguments.

I wasn't trying to.

Considering you are assaulting an big battle station that is supposedly well defended with a large number of troops and fighters ( shown in a previous scene), shouldn't you show a decent assault force?

Who said it was supposedly well defended? It had a normally impenetrable shield, and surface batteries / missile launchers, but there's no indication of a gigantic starfighter fleet. The parade ground/speech scene you're referring to doesn't show any indication of a truly enormous starfighter force:

http://i1.wp.com/makingstarwars.net/wp- ... 500%2C1458

Count them if you wish.

Because Starkiller base isn't the big overarching plot, and how late it was introduced in the movie? In ANH and ROTJ, the death stars were introduced very early, and their destruction lies in the very heart of the plot. The introduction scene in ANH happened because of the stolen plans. ROTJ introduced the Death Star in the very first scene.

In TFA, the focus was never about trying to destroy the death Star. It's merely about finding Luke. This is a story that does not require any massive battle at all.

Why does it have to be the big overarching plot? Because in ANH and RotJ it was? It seems weird to criticize the film for being simultaneously too much like ANH, but not enough.

Starkiller Base not being the big overarching plot doesn't mean it serves no purpose in the script. It serves as the nexus for every main character's arc to be progressed/ resolved, in the backdrop of a giant metaphor about darkness and light (re: the sun being drained) as well as providing for stakes by way of a race against time. Simply because Starkiller Base doesn't drive the plot doesn't mean it serves no purpose. Unlike two out of four battles in TPM.

So while its concept is obviously derivative, it is not superfluous.

I'm not talking about whether there is enough base delta Zeroes or the underdogs should be defeated. I am talking about making movies that create a sense of suspense and tension by making the antagonist a credible threat. If we saw an army of 100,000 orcs defeated by 10 Superheroes, from a dramatic point of view, the battle sequence isn't exciting because it feels that the army isn't a credible threat at all.

You're joking, right? You're talking about the antagonist not being a 'credible threat' while singing the praises of the battles in The Phantom Menace? That's an impossible argument to take seriously. The absurd comic nincompoops of the Trade Federation aren't threatening at all. They're utterly useless. The First Order's forces are more competent in every single way, whether its the TIE pilots who don't crash into obstacles, who can repeatedly shoot down enemy fighters, or the stormtroopers who beat the shit out of main characters (armed with lightsabers, no less) and actually aim down the sights of their guns.

As it is, you should recall that the Resistance's actual plan for destroying Starkiller Base never actually had a chance of succeeding. Without Han deciding to get into the oscillator in person and crack it open from the inside - something which was never part of the plan - the fighters had no chance of destroying it, and the Resistance's base would have certainly been destroyed. Also, only three or so fighters survived the assault.

The tension in the Battle of Endor works in part because we saw the Rebels throwing their entire fleet in a last ditch attempt to kill the Death Star. It creates the idea that how difficult it is to try and destroy the second Death Star that they cannot repeat the trick of sending a mere handful of fighters.

It shows that the Empire isn't underestimating the Rebels this time round.

Except they kinda totally did, but the battle still works regardless.

[Vympel]

Anyway, since the whole Phantom Menace thing is being brought up again, I found a really interesting review of Phantom Menace:

http://web.archive.org/web/200003051912 ... _rev.shtml

It goes through all the usual motions: Jar Jar sucks, plot barely makes any sense, too much politics, too much CGI, blah blah, etc. - all the usual criticisms we've heard countless times from many critics. The funny thing is this review is actually from like, before the movie was released. It's from somebody who saw it in May 1999 in a pre-screening, two days before it was released publicly. It's just kind of funny that he said the same shit as everyone else, before anyone else really said it. It looks like this is probably the earliest documented example of many common TPM criticisms.

Did you notice its Eli Roth?

[Soontir C'boath]

The First Order's forces are more competent in every single way, whether its the TIE pilots who don't crash into obstacles, who can repeatedly shoot down enemy fighters, or the stormtroopers who beat the shit out of main characters (armed with lightsabers, no less) and actually aim down the sights of their guns.

We also had troopers who should be looking into every nook and cranny for Rey, but did not even bother to look into the passageway she was in, less we add super duper shrouding abilities to her repertoire, but then we also had Solo and Chewie planting thermal detonators without the guards at that location noticing them. Must be some heavy Metal Gear eyesight there. Leia could have certainly used that search pattern on Tantive IV.

Speaking of ANH, they sooner or later noticed the crew in the docking control room weren't responding and sent troopers to check it out, they immediately sent a squad to the prison block to investigate the weapons fire there as after all it's where the Princess is, and kept chasing after Han and the gang when he inevitably ran into them.

Back to TFA, while I'm at this, Finn should have been executed or arrested and escorted for reconditioning on the spot at the beginning of the movie as well.

[Vympel]

We also had troopers who should be looking into every nook and cranny for Rey, but did not even bother to look into the passageway she was in, less we add super duper shrouding abilities to her repertoire, but then we also had Solo and Chewie planting thermal detonators without the guards at that location noticing them. Must be some heavy Metal Gear eyesight there. Leia could have certainly used that search pattern on Tantive IV.

They were on their way to look in the passageway she was in, that's why she climbed down into the workings of the wall. Else she would've been seen when they turned the corner. Also, there were no guards at the location when the bombs were being planted, and they were reasonably well concealed, not placed out in the open. Its hardly a howler.

Speaking of ANH, they sooner or later noticed the crew in the docking control room weren't responding and sent troopers to check it out, they immediately sent a squad to the prison block to investigate the weapons fire there as after all it's where the Princess is, and kept chasing after Han and the gang when he inevitably ran into them.

And? Those aren't Trade Federation clown droids. Neither the grunt villains of the Empire or the First Order are perfect. They're simply significantly better. Its not like the First Order didn't have surveillance either, Rey was simply very good at avoiding it, as we saw in the instance referred above.

STORMTROOPER
Sir, sensors triggered in hangar 718. We're searching the area.

KYLO REN
She's just beginning to test her powers. The longer it takes to find her, the more dangerous she becomes.

Back to TFA, while I'm at this, Finn should have been executed or arrested and escorted for reconditioning on the spot at the beginning of the movie as well.

That's ridiculously draconian for a first offence. Its not reasonable to expect that he would immediately turn active traitor because of a failure to fire his weapon. That's why he was ordered to submit his blaster for inspection (to verify that he had, in fact, not fired) and was ordered to reconditioning. Criticising them for not doing more is akin to criticising them for not reading the script beforehand.

[Soontir C'boath]

We also had troopers who should be looking into every nook and cranny for Rey, but did not even bother to look into the passageway she was in, less we add super duper shrouding abilities to her repertoire, but then we also had Solo and Chewie planting thermal detonators without the guards at that location noticing them. Must be some heavy Metal Gear eyesight there. Leia could have certainly used that search pattern on Tantive IV.

They were on their way to look in the passageway she was in, that's why she climbed down into the workings of the wall. Else she would've been seen when they turned the corner. Also, there were no guards at the location when the bombs were being planted, and they were reasonably well concealed, not placed out in the open.

Er, what? I am referring to when she was hiding in a corner of a doorway when the troopers just jogged by without batting their heads in her direction. Like I said, might as well hide in a box and move in it.

As for Han and Chewie, I am pretty sure there were troopers there even before Kylo showed up and the pan around the area certainly doesn't look like there were much room for concealment.

That's ridiculously draconian for a first offence. Its not reasonable to expect that he would immediately turn active traitor because of a failure to fire his weapon. That's why they ordered him to reconditioning. This is akin to criticising them for not reading the script beforehand.

Wait a second, they just executed a shitload of people and this would be draconian? He was conditioned from childhood to obey orders and fight for the First Order. Instead he did not kill and he was exhibiting very emotional behavior that Kylo Ren certainly noticed, but didn't do shit about. Forget turning traitor and freeing the pilot later on, he needed to have an eye kept on him at the very least from that point on.

[Vympel]

Er, what? I am referring to when she was hiding in a corner of a doorway when the troopers just jogged by without batting their heads in her direction. Like I said, might as well hide in a box and move in it.

I don't remember that at all. I've seen the movie a few times, but I'd have to check the blu-ray.

As for Han and Chewie, I am pretty sure there were troopers there even before Kylo showed up and the pan around the area certainly doesn't look like there were much room for concealment.

There really weren't. And there was plenty of room for concealment, the place is a mess of pipes and blind spots.

Wait a second, they just executed a shitload of people and this would be draconian?

A shitload of civilians who are of no military value, not one of their own soldiers. Military justice, such as it is, is still a thing, and I imagine raising him from birth involves significant expense.

He was conditioned from childhood to obey orders and fight for the First Order. Instead he did not kill

They don't know he didn't kill. That's why he was ordered to submit his blaster for inspection.

and he was exhibiting very emotional behavior that Kylo Ren certainly noticed, but didn't do shit about.

Its not Kylo Ren's job to discipline the rank and file. Its Captain Phasma's. That's what she was doing.

Forget turning traitor and freeing the pilot later on, he needed to have an eye kept on him at the very least from that point on.

Why? Is it reasonable to assume he's going to go apeshit and escape the ship? That's the only reason to impose such a condition. Its entirely unreasonable and only makes sense if you assume they've read the script.

[Soontir C'boath]

Yes. It is reasonable to assume someone who potentially did not obey orders, took off his helmet when he was not suppose to, and exhibiting abnormal behavior to be subjected to an escort at the very least. Ordering someone who likely (edit: I should say did) broke his conditioning to self-report to be reconditioned is simply hilarious. You are obsessing about the script when I am not even bothering with what happens next.

You might as well ask someone who broke the law to take himself to jail.

[The Romulan Republic]

To be fair, they probably didn't expect him to actually break out a crucial prisoner, steal a fighter, and shoot his way out. Its a long way from disobeying orders, especially relatively minor first time violations, to armed rebellion.

[Vympel]

Yes. It is reasonable to assume someone who potentially did not obey orders, took off his helmet when he was not suppose to, and exhibiting abnormal behavior to be subjected to an escort at the very least. Ordering someone who likely (edit: I should say did) broke his conditioning to self-report to be reconditioned is simply hilarious. You are obsessing about the script when I am not even bothering with what happens next.

You might as well ask someone who broke the law to take himself to jail.

That's absurd. His helmet is a thing now? You're treating what would be considered in any military a minor uniform violation as if its a capital crime. It would be a massive overreaction an overwhelming majority of the time. Why should he be placed under escort? Is he going to hurt someone? What reasonable basis is there to assume that, apart from supernatural prescience? Can you name a single military that would do that to a soldier on his first offence?

[Channel72]

Speaking of ANH, they sooner or later noticed the crew in the docking control room weren't responding and sent troopers to check it out, they immediately sent a squad to the prison block to investigate the weapons fire there as after all it's where the Princess is, and kept chasing after Han and the gang when he inevitably ran into them.

Please, ANH was just as ridiculous as TFA in terms of "bad guy" security. The Imperial officers and Storm Troopers act like total idiots the moment the Falcon arrives on the Deathstar. Yes, some (undefined) extent of it can be explained away by the fact that much of it was an act to purposely let the Falcon escape... but even before that plan was in play, the Storm Troopers bring "scanning equipment" into the Falcon, then get cartoonishly knocked out and two seconds later Luke and Han are galavanting around the Deathstar in Stormtrooper uniforms, accessing restricted areas, (with apparently no security cards/codes/clearance whatever - unless clearance was digitally built into the suits of the two poor saps they knocked out...). We're not really sure at what point the whole thing transitioned from "Empire acting stupid" to "Empire purposely acting stupid to let Falcon escape", but it's pretty clear that Han and Luke got away with some pretty crazy shit without anyone in the Deathstar stopping them.

So shitty Imperial security has kind of been a tradition in Star Wars since day one.

[Soontir C'boath]

Yes. It is reasonable to assume someone who potentially did not obey orders, took off his helmet when he was not suppose to, and exhibiting abnormal behavior to be subjected to an escort at the very least. Ordering someone who likely (edit: I should say did) broke his conditioning to self-report to be reconditioned is simply hilarious. You are obsessing about the script when I am not even bothering with what happens next.

You might as well ask someone who broke the law to take himself to jail.

That's absurd. His helmet is a thing now? You're treating what would be considered in any military a minor uniform violation as if its a capital crime. It would be a massive overreaction an overwhelming majority of the time. Why should he be placed under escort? Is he going to hurt someone? What reasonable basis is there to assume that, apart from supernatural prescience? Can you name a single military that would do that to a soldier on his first offence?

Now you're being absurd. You've been picking apart my argument for each separate piece rather than treating all the things together he's erratically done as suspicious.

Speaking of ANH, they sooner or later noticed the crew in the docking control room weren't responding and sent troopers to check it out, they immediately sent a squad to the prison block to investigate the weapons fire there as after all it's where the Princess is, and kept chasing after Han and the gang when he inevitably ran into them.

Please, ANH was just as ridiculous as TFA in terms of "bad guy" security. The Imperial officers and Storm Troopers act like total idiots the moment the Falcon arrives on the Deathstar. Yes, some (undefined) extent of it can be explained away by the fact that much of it was an act to purposely let the Falcon escape... but even before that plan was in play, the Storm Troopers bring "scanning equipment" into the Falcon, then get cartoonishly knocked out and two seconds later Luke and Han are galavanting around the Deathstar in Stormtrooper uniforms, accessing restricted areas, (with apparently no security cards/codes/clearance whatever - unless clearance was digitally built into the suits of the two poor saps they knocked out...). We're not really sure at what point the whole thing transitioned from "Empire acting stupid" to "Empire purposely acting stupid to let Falcon escape", but it's pretty clear that Han and Luke got away with some pretty crazy shit without anyone in the Deathstar stopping them.

So shitty Imperial security has kind of been a tradition in Star Wars since day one.

Er, did you forget they checked the Falcon's log and read the crew left the ship? They didn't necessarily have a reason to believe someone was still on-board including Vader who could have very well sense their presence and did vaguely felt Obi-Wan and then there were two troopers on guard outside the ship just in case. Also remember they had a wookie! The fact that our heroes overpowered them all just shows how awesome our HEROES are.

Next thing you'll tell me, stormtroopers shooting our heroes are truly shitty rather than having character shields.

Perhaps you should recall by the time they presumably investigated the Falcon and the control room for the docking bay, our heroes were already on their way to the detention block, so there was nothing suspicious to be had as yet. It wasn't until they had investigated and alarmed by the firefight and destruction of survelliance equipment in the detention block that they finally were on alert. You will also recall, they restricted the use of the turbolift forcing our heroes to ingeniously use the garbage chute. If it wasn't for two innocuous droids nobody probably gave a shit about because they're droids, they would have been crushed and killed.

Only part I can certainly think was poor was when they did not send someone to investigate the garbage chute they dropped themselves even if they had been utterly crushed. Regardless, they were found sooner or later which is better said than what happened in TFA.

I am laying all that out there, because at least in ANH, they encountered many forms of competency that they had to evade or overcome. Many parts of TFA just was too convenient. Hell, people still can't believe Phasma would go down like a bitch turning off the shields as she did.

[Vympel]

Now you're being absurd. You've been picking apart my argument for each separate piece rather than treating all the things together he's erratically done as suspicious.

There's nothing inherently "suspicious" about his conduct - at its absolute highest, to a reasonable observer he'd be displaying signs of cowardice and stress, nothing more. Your argument that he should've been immediately locked up for being suspected of not firing his weapon and taking off his helmet without permission is entirely based on what he subsequently did, even if you deny it.

[Soontir C'boath]

You'd have an argument if he was a normally trained soldier, not someone who was brainwashed since childhood to obey orders and do what's necessary for the First Order. But all we got was him hilariously getting ordered to get himself brainwashed again.

FFS, the moment they had Kylo Ren focus on Finn so intensely, the only thing that should have followed was that he was going to force choke the shit out of him.

[Soontir C'boath]

FFS, the moment they had Kylo Ren focus on Finn so intensely, the only thing that should have followed was that he was going to force choke the shit out of him.

This is what I thought Ren was going to do when they spent so much time with him looking at Finn. I didn't have any magical future sight or thoughts telling me any different as I was watching this scene at the theater. It's what they should've done at that point.

But they didn't and he continued to have his panic attack in the shuttle with him further on taking off his helmet as Phasma caught him. So yes, it's clear an erratic and I shall add distraught trooper should have an eye kept on him.

I seriously don't give a fuck what he did after. You don't leave someone who is disturbed alone. Especially after firing and killing a crowd of people.

[Soontir C'boath]

At the end of the day. Let me put it this way, if a droid was acting out of the ordinary and was sent to be reprogrammed, you probably wouldn't leave him alone as he may not necessarily obey due to its abnormal state and it should be no different with a brainwashed trooper acting out of sorts.

[Soontir C'boath]

I think what is bothering me in this exchange is you, and Captain Phasma for that matter, are treating Finn's mental state at that point as frivolous yet at the same time in the end important enough to call for reconditioning. And he is not being sent to see a shrink either. He is being ordered to be brainwashed again on his own willpower which is presumed to be suspect.

Ok, I hope this is the end of my multi-post thought process on this.