Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18286
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 »

bilateralrope wrote:
Batman wrote:Then he should have sucked even more against Kylo, and yet he held his own for surprisingly long.
I'm saying that I think Kylo Ren sucks at lightsaber combat*. Which is why Finn did so well against him despite not being force sensitive.
Makes me wonder just what the fuck he plans to do when he finds dear old Uncle Luke. :P

The movie felt rushed and skipped a bunch of bluntly necessary set ups for the centerpiece scenes. (How did Poe Dameron get off Jakku? How did the Resistance base have a view of the destroyed Republic ecumenopolis and its moons from an angle that makes it both close to and between them without being a target itself? How did Kylo Ren get out of the power regulator thing and in front of our escaping heroes? How did Kylo not fall down the big fissure that opened between him and Rey while he was on the ground? How did Chewie get to the Falcon to make the pickup? How did the general have time to retrieve Kylo Ren without knowing where the fuck he was while the planet was blowing up, making the obvious assumption that they didn't kill off their main villain off-screen? I could go on for days, but you get the idea.) The visual effects were fantastic, the acting was superb, but there were plot holes you could pilot that Star Destroyer through.

Speaking of the Star Destroyer, I was kind of disappointed that we never got to see its dorsal surface. All the shots were from the ventral side, showing one side of the bridge tower poking over when the shot was angled enough at most.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10851
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Vendetta »

The real problem with Starkiller Base is that as a plot device it's pretty perfunctory. They blow up a planet nobody on screen cares about (ps we cared when they blew up Alderaan because Leia visibly cared and we knew it was her home), and then it gets 'sploded. Yay?

It's a common problem with people not realising that drama doesn't arise from the bigness of the stakes but how personally connected the characters are to them. We care about Rey and Finn because they're characters who we are introduced to and who go through arcs which lead them to personal growth, we don't care about a planet full of randoms because they're not part of the drama.
User avatar
Crayz9000
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 7329
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:39pm
Location: Improbably superpositioned
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Crayz9000 »

Vendetta wrote:we don't care about a planet full of randoms because they're not part of the drama.
Well said.

When I saw the ecumenopolis the first time, I immediately assumed it was Coruscant. Then I saw the moons around it, which seemed out of place, and it was eventually clarified. They obviously tried to draw some sympathy by showing random doomed people on the ground reacting to their fate, but since we had no clue who they were, other than random official placeholders, there was just no emotional connection to them.

My guess is that the planet was going to be Coruscant at some point, hence the CG design looking almost identical, but somebody at the top vetoed it and so the planet was quickly retconned to some other disposable seat-of-government world.
A Tribute to Stupidity: The Robert Scott Anderson Archive (currently offline)
John Hansen - Slightly Insane Bounty Hunter - ASVS Vets' Assoc. Class of 2000
HAB Cryptanalyst | WG - Intergalactic Alliance and Spoof Author | BotM | Cybertron | SCEF
Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Channel72 »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Nobody is arguing that Star Wars should be scientifically plausible. Because nobody hear is arguing Star Wars should be a "hard" sci-fi, or anything even remotely resembling that. The argument that people are making is that there should be some internal consistency to the universe. I mean, imagine an extreme case where Han Solo punches someone in the face and they fall down, and ten seconds later punches someone else in the face and their penis explodes, and no explanation is offered for the discrepancy. That would detract from the movie far more than a case where it is set up that Han Solo's punches can make penises explode and it happens every time he punches someone. It would be remarkably silly, but if its consistent it is a lot easier to accept as part of the movie's internal logic. When the movie LACKS an internal logic, it is hard to consider it good because it feels so half-assed.
Yes, I understand the distinction. But many of the arguments here are more along the lines of "this isn't scientifically plausible" rather than "this isn't internally consistent".

Regardless, there's nothing in this movie that is somehow glaringly more inconsistent than shit that happened in the OT. In ESB, Han and Leia somehow make it from Hoth to Bespin without hyperdrive in what appears to be a very short amount of time, perhaps less than a few days - which is both internally inconsistent with what's already been established about interstellar travel in ANH and also scientifically implausible with how things work in the real Universe. People in this thread would be having a fucking field day pointing that out if that happened in a new Star Wars movie. In fact, the whole chronology of ESB is vague and fucked up, leaving us with the impression that Luke only trained with Yoda for a few days, yet is somehow a fully functional Jedi by ROTJ. But it doesn't matter because ESB has been around for a few decades and has basically become cemented as a masterpiece, so we simply take it for granted, and happily come up with any number of silly explanations to rationalize what we saw happen on screen.
Last edited by Channel72 on 2015-12-21 08:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
Channel72
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2068
Joined: 2010-02-03 05:28pm
Location: New York

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Channel72 »

-
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

So I saw the movie.

First of all, it has great visuals and some good dialogue. It was an enjoyable popcorn flick.

OTOH, it also was a great disappointment, because once again JJ Abrams fails to break his own limitations. That is, this is more a series of action pieces than a movie with a plot. It also follows the old JJ formula that was so overused in ST already. Huge scary guys show up, kill some meaningless faceless guys, committ some atrocity, use a superweapon to blow up a seemingly important-but-not-really planet (Vulcan/definitely-not-coruscant) and then are thwarted in a battle where they behave like utter idiots. I mean, you can use the same basic plot from nu-ST1 and copy it onto this movie and the basic themes remain the same.

First, starkiller base. Where is the New Order Fleet? No ships protecting their base? And the resistance has less power than the cell on Yavin IV during ANH?

But the biggest issue: How are you going to get energy again after you drained the sun when using it two times? I mean, you build a base the size of a deathstar (yes, I know, planet usage and all but just the covered surface area seemed comparable to DS1) and you manage to make it less mobile and less useful? That takes a special kind of idiot.

Speaking of idiots, just what is the Republic doing during this? Do they just not care that a neo-Imperial faction is running around and attacking worlds? This whole plot makes no sense. Either the Republic has fallen already again or it should have a better political memory than a fly. It makes a much sense as the allies hypothetically deciding in the fifties that the Hitler Youth was no concern really and should be allowed to exist again. I was also unaware that exploding one system means the whole fleet is useless. Minimalism at its worst.

Third, just why did Luke leave his lightsaber behind? Especially when he knows there are people with guns searching for him?

But my main complaint is that Abrams just does not get the characters. Remember when they encountered adversity? They rose to the challenge. They did not give up, not even when Luke got his hand sliced off and Han was a statue. And now Han just fucks off because his son became a space emo? Leia does not do anything effective against the First Order? Luke just goes into hiding?

I hate to say it, but the old EU had far better characterization when it comes to the old guard and that is something I never would have said before. Timothy Zahn's take blows this out of the water. Heck, even KJA had better interpretations of the characters. Yes, even KJA.

So congrats Abrams, after changing ST for the worse you've accomplished the same now with SW, turning it into popcorn flicks that have little to do with the originals. If this was not a SW story it would be just another popcorn flick. And yes, the movie is better than the prequels but that is simply because it is better directed. At least the original IV-VI had internal consistency. You have to turn off your brain to enjoy it.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

Oh and who takes bets on either Luke or Supreme Leader Snook being the father of the new girl?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18286
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 »

Thanas wrote:Third, just why did Luke leave his lightsaber behind? Especially when he knows there are people with guns searching for him?
He didn't; that's the one he lost along with his hand at Cloud City.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Thanas »

Oh yeah I remembered that. Blue and green.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Kojiro
Jedi Master
Posts: 1399
Joined: 2005-05-31 06:04pm
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Kojiro »

The better question is how was the saber found? Last we saw it wasn't it falling towards Bespin, a gas giant?
Dragon Clan Veritech
User avatar
Borgholio
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6297
Joined: 2010-09-03 09:31pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Borgholio »

Kojiro wrote:The better question is how was the saber found? Last we saw it wasn't it falling towards Bespin, a gas giant?
They never said. Supposedly the saber (and his hand) fell to the bottom of the Bespin city structure, as he himself did a few minutes later.
You will be assimilated...bunghole!
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29168
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Thanas wrote: First, starkiller base. Where is the New Order Fleet? No ships protecting their base? And the resistance has less power than the cell on Yavin IV during ANH?
This shouldn't be just in the novelization, but Starkiller Base was left deliberately under-defened in the novelization to draw the Resistance out so they could locate them (which was done in the film when they tracked the Resistance's recon ships).
But the biggest issue: How are you going to get energy again after you drained the sun when using it two times? I mean, you build a base the size of a deathstar (yes, I know, planet usage and all but just the covered surface area seemed comparable to DS1) and you manage to make it less mobile and less useful? That takes a special kind of idiot.
I thought it obvious that Starkiller Base is mobile. It'd be useless otherwise.
Speaking of idiots, just what is the Republic doing during this? Do they just not care that a neo-Imperial faction is running around and attacking worlds? This whole plot makes no sense. Either the Republic has fallen already again or it should have a better political memory than a fly. It makes a much sense as the allies hypothetically deciding in the fifties that the Hitler Youth was no concern really and should be allowed to exist again. I was also unaware that exploding one system means the whole fleet is useless. Minimalism at its worst.
The New Republic massively demilitarised, according to the SW.com databank. The New Republic is feckless and argumentative and only random New Republic senators/worlds are willing to throw Leia's private little Resistance (that's what it is) a bone. This isn't minimalism per se.
But my main complaint is that Abrams just does not get the characters. Remember when they encountered adversity? They rose to the challenge. They did not give up, not even when Luke got his hand sliced off and Han was a statue. And now Han just fucks off because his son became a space emo? Leia does not do anything effective against the First Order? Luke just goes into hiding?
Leia created the Resistance and is fighting the First Order, I think that criticism is hardly fair.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Mad
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:32am
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Mad »

Kojiro wrote:The better question is how was the saber found? Last we saw it wasn't it falling towards Bespin, a gas giant?
I always assumed it was supposed to be the saber and/or hand, but it's really unclear. Could be the saber and something else, but it's too blurry to confirm or deny.
Later...
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2710
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by AniThyng »

If they could move even smallish planets across the galaxy so casually I'm tempted to wonder why sub optimal worlds exist at all. Just move them to a more pleasant orbit! But then again perhaps that's like wondering why grinding poverty still exists with walking distance of the most expensive real estate on our planet...
Maybe they aren't sucking out the entire Sun. It just bounces back later and they can suck it dry again!
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Nephtys »

It could just be that it takes hundreds of uses of Starkiller base to actually use up the sun. Long before then, you'd probably have wiped out all your enemies. In which case, it has zero need to be mobile.

Especially since it looked as if the weapon could fire every few hours, and was going for continuous attack on both the New Republic and Resistance. After wiping out NR's capital and major fleet, presumably it'd wipe out the resistance base (which was positioned to attack on a combat footing, unlike the NR) as well as a few more NR planets until the First Order can declare itself rulers of the galaxy.
User avatar
Noble713
Redshirt
Posts: 45
Joined: 2007-03-15 10:41pm
Location: Japan

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Noble713 »

Thanas wrote: But my main complaint is that Abrams just does not get the characters.
...
Luke just goes into hiding?
"Into exile, I must go. Failed, I have." - Yoda

So there is precedent for Jedi Masters skulking away into the boonies after they punt things into the stands.
User avatar
Crayz9000
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 7329
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:39pm
Location: Improbably superpositioned
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Crayz9000 »

AniThyng wrote:If they could move even smallish planets across the galaxy so casually I'm tempted to wonder why sub optimal worlds exist at all. Just move them to a more pleasant orbit! But then again perhaps that's like wondering why grinding poverty still exists with walking distance of the most expensive real estate on our planet...
Maybe they aren't sucking out the entire Sun. It just bounces back later and they can suck it dry again!
Based on the visuals, Starkiller Base wasn't quite the size of a "normal" planet - more like closer to the size of our moon.

Second, I'd imagine that preparing a planet to jump through hyperspace would be quite the undertaking. As you could see with the giant trench around the planetoid, they did some serious remodeling. Granted most of that was for the weapon, but I'd imagine the hyperdrive core would need to be somewhere near the center of mass, so I'd say the reason we don't see planets getting moved around willy-nilly is that there are so many planets in the galaxy it's probably easier just to find an optimal planet rather than relocating one.
Nepthys wrote: It could just be that it takes hundreds of uses of Starkiller base to actually use up the sun. Long before then, you'd probably have wiped out all your enemies. In which case, it has zero need to be mobile.
Especially since it looked as if the weapon could fire every few hours, and was going for continuous attack on both the New Republic and Resistance. After wiping out NR's capital and major fleet, presumably it'd wipe out the resistance base (which was positioned to attack on a combat footing, unlike the NR) as well as a few more NR planets until the First Order can declare itself rulers of the galaxy.
Unless I'm misremembering it, they said it had to recharge between firings, and it was shown consuming a sun in its entirety before it was charged up enough to fire again.

I think that firing off an entire star's worth of plasma to kill a planet is about as close as you'll ever get to the definition of overkill - hell, you could probably use it to set off a supernova by suddenly dumping that much mass into the middle of an old bloated red giant.

Also, supporting the idea that it consumes an entire star's mass: when they destabilized the "thermal oscillator" and the base self-immolated, all the contained plasma was released and settled back into a new star instead of exploding catastrophically like the Death Star.
A Tribute to Stupidity: The Robert Scott Anderson Archive (currently offline)
John Hansen - Slightly Insane Bounty Hunter - ASVS Vets' Assoc. Class of 2000
HAB Cryptanalyst | WG - Intergalactic Alliance and Spoof Author | BotM | Cybertron | SCEF
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29168
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Note, from the TFA novel we know that Starkiller Base isn't using all the star to simply shoot it back out. Its using it as fuel for an absurd exotic process involving "dark energy".
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
Patroklos
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2573
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Patroklos »

Noble713 wrote:
Thanas wrote: But my main complaint is that Abrams just does not get the characters.
...
Luke just goes into hiding?
"Into exile, I must go. Failed, I have." - Yoda

So there is precedent for Jedi Masters skulking away into the boonies after they punt things into the stands.
Thats a bit different. Yoda was in a situation where the entire galaxy was just taken from him and is now being used to hunt his and his kind into oblivion. He went into hiding to avoid said oblivion not for him, but for his order and the knowledge needed to eventually rise again. Yoda was also not personally responsible for the situation he was running from, though he obviously bares some blame as a major leader of the Jedi Order.

Luke abandoned a situation nothing like that. He could have licked his wounds anywhere, there was zero need to go into hiding (or exile, whatever). Not only that, he had the power to undo the wrong he was personally responsible for. Who the hell creates and then unleashes a dark jedi on the galaxy and then goes walkabout when you are the only person who can plausibly fight the monster you created? A coward, that's who.
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2710
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by AniThyng »

One of the credited writers is Lawrence kasdan - how much of a rule food he have? I find it odd we single out Abrams for not getting the characters or the setting in this context.
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
Grumman
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2488
Joined: 2011-12-10 09:13am

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Grumman »

Channel72 wrote:...why isn't the entire Galaxy already being run by super-intelligent AIs...
Because that is not any kind of inevitability, despite what singularity-wankers might tell you. In order for super-intelligent AIs to take over people must give them that power, either willingly or through gross negligence. And given that the Old Republic's problem was corrupt politicians who would not choose to give away the perks of their job, and the Empire was controlled by someone who was supernaturally selfish, nobody was going to give a droid enough authority to make themselves obsolete.
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2272
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Thanas wrote:But my main complaint is that Abrams just does not get the characters. Remember when they encountered adversity? They rose to the challenge. They did not give up, not even when Luke got his hand sliced off and Han was a statue. And now Han just fucks off because his son became a space emo? Leia does not do anything effective against the First Order? Luke just goes into hiding?

I hate to say it, but the old EU had far better characterization when it comes to the old guard and that is something I never would have said before. Timothy Zahn's take blows this out of the water. Heck, even KJA had better interpretations of the characters. Yes, even KJA.
Despite the fact that I have some issues with even Zahn's stories, I would have to agree. He properly understood the characters from the films.

It reminded me of an issue I had with KOTOR 2(and TOR) and Person of Interest season 3. The problem in all of those is that heroes from an earlier story, who had a wonderful plan or took incredible action to dealing with a major problem, were then impotent at dealing with it in a way that allowed the story to progress.
Noble713 wrote: So there is precedent for Jedi Masters skulking away into the boonies after they punt things into the stands.
The difference being that Yoda had just lost a duel with the leader of the new Empire that now controlled virtually the entire galaxy. Luke failed to redeem a former apprentice who had turned to the Dark side. That is hardly the same thing.
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29168
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

I think we should withhold judgment on what Luke did or didn't do re: Ben Solo and Snoke until at least the next movie. I imagine he may explain himself.

Obi-Wan did jack shit for 2 decades too, recall.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11462
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan »

we should also consider that Yoda trained successful Jedi for generations so he probably had enough confidence that one "bad apple" didn't mean he was unable to train Jedi.

On the other hand it's implied that Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and his class mates were among the first Jedi Luke trained ever, having them be turned to the Dark Side or killed (for all we know Ben Solo wasn't the only one of Luke's students to join the Knights of Ren, just the most prominent.) would probably be a major blow to Luke's confidence.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Lagmonster
Master Control Program
Master Control Program
Posts: 7719
Joined: 2002-07-04 09:53am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Lagmonster »

Despite the fact that JJ probably doesn't want to do this, there is a pretty strong rationalization possible for the whole Snoke = Darth Plagueis connection.
Post Reply