Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

Until the next one :)
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by JLTucker »

Batman wrote:Um-where exactly were the Resistance shown to use child soldiers?
It's said that Luke was training others to be Jedi. We know from the PT that that begins when candidates are children. The resistance supports Luke, so they supported that crap.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Galvatron »

Did Leia ever say how old Kylo was when she sent him to train with Luke?
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Gaidin »

Not sure there was an exact hint but my guess is at least puberty. PT practice was practically all but willing kidnapping.

edit: ugh cellphone keyboard
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

Yeah, because Luke has SO much motivation to follow PT Jedi Order patterns. 'The old Jedi Order started with child recruits and we got the Empire. I started training as an adult and I brought DOWN the Empire. But hey, let's try the old ways again.'
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by JLTucker »

Good point, Batman. I didn't think of it that way.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Channel72 »

JLTucker wrote:Kylo Ren's struggle to determine where he belongs in the universe is great to behold and reminds me immensely of Hamlet's patricide. All in all, he is a far better villain than Vader ever was.
Blasphemy!!

Seriously though, yeah Kylo Ren is awesome, and I also thought he was something of a Shakespearean character due to his internal struggles and the fact that he ultimately kills his father in order to overcome his own insecurities and weaknesses. We've never really had a character as interesting or complex as this in a Star Wars movie.
The prequels attempted to humanize Anakin and make him relatable, but the detestable dialogue, acting, and direction in AotC made that impossible. Imagine if Adam Driver played Anakin.
I don't think Anakin should have been an angst-ridden, conflicted man. He should have been more of a straightforward good-guy hero, until some set of circumstances scarred his psyche to the point where he embraced the Dark Side and got addicted to it's power. But Kylo Ren is the perfect "angsty" villain.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Gaidin »

Batman wrote:Yeah, because Luke has SO much motivation to follow PT Jedi Order patterns. 'The old Jedi Order started with child recruits and we got the Empire. I started training as an adult and I brought DOWN the Empire. But hey, let's try the old ways again.'
That's why I said puberty instead of... you know...pre-school.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

Gaidin wrote:
Batman wrote:Yeah, because Luke has SO much motivation to follow PT Jedi Order patterns. 'The old Jedi Order started with child recruits and we got the Empire. I started training as an adult and I brought DOWN the Empire. But hey, let's try the old ways again.'
That's why I said puberty instead of... you know...pre-school.
Sorry. Was responding to JLTucker.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Gaidin »

Batman wrote: Sorry. Was responding to JLTucker.
Sorry for the mistake. Child is a broad as hell term I guess. In our understanding one can start the training in middle school and still have something of the higher processes he might want but still get the training as well. It might now in this world be a question of training vs indoctrination.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by PREDATOR490 »

Interestingly, I am curious if the Luke is going to turn the Jedi into a similar rule of two system as the Sith use. Trying to train multiple Jedi seems to consistently end up with some going bad and killing the rest so cue the natural end point being the Force balance mandating both sides have two agents.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Gaidin »

I'm not sure if it's that so much as Luke might be in the same position as Yoda. You know, "The right person will find me."
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

Um-the PT and the Clone Wars cartoons are lousy with Jedi and none of them ever tried to kill each other.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Patroklos »

If you can drain suns until they wink out in hours, why would you need to destroy planets? Its pretty much the definition of a Kardeshev Scale II civilization.

As Atomic Rockets would say:
Carl Sagan estimated that humanity is currently around Type 0.7. A Type II would probably have some kind of Dyson sphere to harvest all the star's energy. Type III would probably be as far advanced from us as we are from one-celled amoebae. Terran space explorers would be wise to avoid areas where Type III civilizations are operating. Otherwise they might suffer a similar fate to that of an ant trying to cross an interstate highway. And for similar reasons: not because the Type III hates lower races, but because the lower races are so far beneath their notice that Type IIIs cannot be bothered to keep track of them. Do you ever think about the ants you run over in your automobile? Even with a Type II the situation might be analogous to a puppy-dog chasing a monorail.
Again, the minimalism/maximism bipolar disorder is acute in this movie. JJ's inability to understand scale has basically broken the franchise if any science is applied to this new installment whatsoever.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Channel72 »

I don't really think anybody is watching Star Wars for the science. The original Death Star is already absurdly silly - the amount of energy it generates is beyond insane, and why isn't the entire Galaxy already being run by super-intelligent AIs, etc. blah blah. Oh yeah also they use WW2 targeting technology in space for some reason. Nobody gives a fuck.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Crayz9000 »

Patroklos wrote:If you can drain suns until they wink out in hours, why would you need to destroy planets? Its pretty much the definition of a Kardeshev Scale II civilization.
Star Wars has always been Kardashev type II - the first Death Star's reactor had to have been capable of generating around five times the output of our Sun in order to recharge the superlaser within a single day.

As for why it's necessary to actually kill the planets, with such absurd power generation technology it would theoretically be possible for an ecumenopolis like Coruscant or Hosnian Prime to carry on even without a sun. Even if it wasn't, sufficient transportation capability exists to relocate the population to another system. The only way to ensure that can't happen is to wipe out the planet before anyone can escape.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

'Ha-ha! I drained some random star somewhere in the galaxy!'
'I'm supposed to be impressed by this-why?'

And frankly if that is your standard the franchise was broken long before Star Wars became Episode IV.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Crayz9000 »

Batman wrote:'Ha-ha! I drained some random star somewhere in the galaxy!'
'I'm supposed to be impressed by this-why?'

And frankly if that is your standard the franchise was broken long before Star Wars became Episode IV.
As I mentioned when I crunched the numbers earlier, if Starkiller Base had been capable of actually annihilating the mass it sucked up from a yellow dwarf, it would have had enough energy to power a Death Star superlaser for about 5 billion shots. Or maybe 500 million shots - I may have screwed up the math a little since it was late at night.

Since it had to do this every single time it fired it means that the weapon was using that mass in a very brute-force manner and just flinging it through hyperspace at the targets. Rather impressive, actually. Clumsy, crude, but still impressive- like taking a star and squeezing it out through a toothpaste tube.

Makes me wonder what happened to the rest of the star's mass, though, since the visible trail from the weapon was absurdly long. Would it cool down once the containment effect dropped, eventually turning into yet another cloud of hot gas?
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Iroscato »

I fucking loved this movie. Easily the equal to ROTJ and more than worthy of being included in the same breath as the OT overall. Abrams outdid himself. Everyone outdid themselves.

The whining in this thread is delicious, and I grow fat from feeding on it. ;)

How long until Episode VIII again? ._.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Patroklos »

I bought some Disney this fall in anticipation of of the tasteless masses having no quality control. I am not unhappy you don't care about what I care about. Feed me :)
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Grumman »

PREDATOR490 wrote:Interestingly, I am curious if the Luke is going to turn the Jedi into a similar rule of two system as the Sith use. Trying to train multiple Jedi seems to consistently end up with some going bad and killing the rest so cue the natural end point being the Force balance mandating both sides have two agents.
I don't think that's a viable strategy. The Rule of Two only works for the Sith because they are selfish - as long as the results are good for them personally (read: they're less likely to die of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder) that's what's important. For the Jedi such a policy means leaving unknown numbers of untrained Force users to sink or swim on their own, which is a good way to end up with a whole lot of Dark Siders.

On top of that, what you're suggesting is an In Character solution to an Out Of Character problem. As such, it cannot succeed. The real problem is the willingness to tear down the OT for the sake of the Sequel Trilogy. There is nothing Luke could have done to stop Ben from falling to the Dark Side, because Ben fell to the Dark Side because J.J. Abrams wanted him to and not because Han and Leia were bad parents or Luke was a bad teacher.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Batman »

Um-Ben is Obi Wan Kenobi, who is not inconsiderably dead by the time TFA happens.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Gaidin »

Channel72 wrote:I don't really think anybody is watching Star Wars for the science. The original Death Star is already absurdly silly - the amount of energy it generates is beyond insane, and why isn't the entire Galaxy already being run by super-intelligent AIs, etc. blah blah. Oh yeah also they use WW2 targeting technology in space for some reason. Nobody gives a fuck.
Dude they use WW2 flying physics in space vacuum. I mean. There's a point where you just...accept it. There are times where I accept the world and times I don't. This is well...one of them. We aren't really expecting Peter F. Hamilton where you blow up the star to kill the enemy that has taken over the system here.
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Crayz9000 »

Batman wrote:Um-Ben is Obi Wan Kenobi, who is not inconsiderably dead by the time TFA happens.
...

...

Ben Solo, aka Kylo Ren...
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Re: Ep7 Reviews (Spoilers)

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Channel72 wrote:I don't really think anybody is watching Star Wars for the science. The original Death Star is already absurdly silly - the amount of energy it generates is beyond insane, and why isn't the entire Galaxy already being run by super-intelligent AIs, etc. blah blah. Oh yeah also they use WW2 targeting technology in space for some reason. Nobody gives a fuck.
Way to completely miss the point of everyone's argument!

Nobody is arguing that Star Wars should be scientifically plausible. Because nobody hear is arguing Star Wars should be a "hard" sci-fi, or anything even remotely resembling that. The argument that people are making is that there should be some internal consistency to the universe. I mean, imagine an extreme case where Han Solo punches someone in the face and they fall down, and ten seconds later punches someone else in the face and their penis explodes, and no explanation is offered for the discrepancy. That would detract from the movie far more than a case where it is set up that Han Solo's punches can make penises explode and it happens every time he punches someone. It would be remarkably silly, but if its consistent it is a lot easier to accept as part of the movie's internal logic. When the movie LACKS an internal logic, it is hard to consider it good because it feels so half-assed.

That said, obviously it is possible to nitpick just about every movie (including the OT) into oblivion if you really want to. Maybe you consider some of these arguments nitpicking, but remind yourself that some of the things being said are things people noticed WHILE WATCHING THE MOVIE FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, rather than arguments made by people who have spent a lot of time rewatching everything closely and analyzing it critically.

(For the record, in case anyone misunderstood me, I am not saying I disliked the movie. I did like it, overall. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of glaring issues with it that can't be said of the OT to nearly the same extent. Doesn't make it a bad movie, just means I can't consider it better than the OT. And I am not one to hold up the OT as being somehow beyond criticism; I have plenty of criticisms of those movies, even ESB, even though it is widely considered the best of any of them. Just fewer criticisms, and most of those only concluded after years of being a nerdy Star Wars fans coming to sites and arguing with assholes like all youse :wink: )
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