Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

[Thanas]

Which is why the Emperor had to keep up appearances and tolerate the Senate for so long. As my original thesis stated, the Empire probably functioned much like the Republic did in the years before ANH and was only openly totalitarian in the less wealthy regions of the galaxy.

What you are proposing is the Federal Government acting totalitarian in Iowa without the Citizens of New York caring about it or hearing about it. Now, the republic didn't give a damn about the outer rim and you might have a point here, but all information suggests totalitarian measures were already going on. See the holonet being restricted. The Imperial Navy.

What you are claiming is the equivalent to Augustus ruling the Roman Empire without the legions. It just isn't logical.

[Galvatron]

all information suggests totalitarian measures were already going on. See the holonet being restricted. The Imperial Navy.

What information? The old EU?

My theory is that the Empire treated the core and inner systems with kids gloves, because they had strong representation in the Senate and resources that the Empire needed in order to function. In short, this is what the "bureaucracy" was for, which Tagge referred to when Tarkin announced the dissolution of the Senate.

[Thanas]

all information suggests totalitarian measures were already going on. See the holonet being restricted. The Imperial Navy.

What information? The old EU?

No, Tarkin clearly states the Tarkin Doctrine happened way before Yavin. It also speaks of atrocities being committed and the core world knowing of them.

[Galvatron]

Which explains the erosion of the Senate's "rubberstamp" and their growing support for a full-blown rebellion, not to mention Leia's personal contempt for Tarkin himself.

It all fits.

[Thanas]

Which explains the erosion of the Senate's "rubberstamp" and their growing support for a full-blown rebellion, not to mention Leia's personal contempt for Tarkin himself.

It all fits.

The point is, you don't get to have over a decade and a half of "pacification measures" (Tarkin) and "atrocities" (same) without having some means of military control over the cities. Show me one totalitarian system that managed to do that without having military means to break the cities.

[Galvatron]

I wouldn't call the Empire BBY a totalitarian system. It certainly had plans to be, but we didn't actually see them all come to fruition until the Death Star became fully operational, the Emperor disbanded the Senate and the "demonstration" of Alderaan's destruction. These events were not merely coincidental, IMO.

[Thanas]

I wouldn't call the Empire BBY a totalitarian system. It certainly has plans to be, but we didn't actually see it all come to fruition until the Death Star became fully operational and they demonstrated its power on Alderaan.

I would. When your officers are accused of war crimes against their own population and Palpatine reacts by just promoting them to a better job elsewhere and can get away with it even when everybody in the Core Worlds knows about it (Tarkin novel), then that system is totalitarian. When the Government can disappear people and nobody can do anything about it, that is totalitarian (same source). There are enough examples in Tarkin alone for the Empire to earn that label.

[Galvatron]

There are people who could level the same accusations against the US and others who would just as fervently deny that we are a totalitarian state. However, if the President suddenly disbanded Congress and nuked Geneva, it'd be obvious who was right.

On that note, I still haven't read Tarkin. I'll discuss it further when I get the chance to do so.

[Adam Reynolds]

If Imperial atrocities were being done in the outer rim exclusively, then it would be possible that the core worlds went along with it as revenge for the Clone Wars(similarly, though on a much larger scale, to American responses to 9/11). If it wasn't until later that Palpatine began attempting to exploit the Core, around the time of ANH, conveniently when the Death Star was available to give him the extra muscle needed for that level of control. Without that, and with the atrocity of Alderaan, his control should be weakened. The model here is closer to the British Empire than a proper totalitarian state pre-Alderaan.

As for controlling the core worlds, presumably their industrial base were the most loyal worlds in the Empire. And if not, they would have been the ones with proper garrisons(Lothal, despite being a backwater, qualifies as this given that they had TIE factories). The core worlds would have been the ones who benefited from the imperialism in the outer rim and thus would have had no reason to object to it. If you want your three speeders and your hundred square meter dwelling on Coruscant, then we must continue oppressing Lothal. Palpatine was always good at playing both sides against the middle, there is nothing to indicate that this changed with his takeover of the throne.

If the Emperor wanted to have the same level of military control in the core that he easily had in the outer rim it would require the ability to defeat planetary shielding. Without garrisons on every major core world, which Alderaan shows they clearly don't have, it requires a Death Star. The only other alternative is a massing a fleet for a long term siege, a concentration of forces less than ideal when fighting an insurgency.

[Galvatron]

I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the Imperial Starfleet (I steadfastly refuse to call it the Imperial Navy) was mostly used to surveil and even blockade suspected rebellious, but heavily defended worlds (e.g. Dac). Satisfied that none of those worlds could launch attacks or supply matériel to the rebellion without confirming the Empire's suspicions or exposing themselves to bombardment, their primary objective would then be to locate and destroy the hidden rebel base because that's where all of their offensives originated from.

This is my head canon explanation for why such a small rebel base was such an important target for the Empire.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the Imperial Starfleet (I steadfastly refuse to call it the Imperial Navy) was mostly used to surveil and even blockade suspected rebellious, but heavily defended worlds (e.g. Dac). Satisfied that none of those worlds could launch attacks or supply matériel to the rebellion without confirming the Empire's suspicions or exposing themselves to bombardment, their primary objective would then be to locate and destroy the hidden rebel base because that's where all of their offensives originated from.

This is my head canon explanation for why such a small rebel base was such an important target for the Empire.

This would make sense, that it was its function as a hidden base for long range starfighters that made it so valuable. We see the same thing at Hoth. We certainly see that they have they range to cross hundreds of lightyears in hours from ROTJ, it would thus make sense that Yavin was in a position from which they could strike at something of consequence. Though what could possibly be worth attacking with only handful of starfighters? Convoys should have been in hyperspace at their most vulnerable times.

Though from a Doylist perspective, clearly much of the OT wasn't really meant with a larger scale in mind as much. It was really only with the PT that we saw things at a larger scale.

[The Romulan Republic]

If Imperial atrocities were being done in the outer rim exclusively, then it would be possible that the core worlds went along with it as revenge for the Clone Wars(similarly, though on a much larger scale, to American responses to 9/11). If it wasn't until later that Palpatine began attempting to exploit the Core, around the time of ANH, conveniently when the Death Star was available to give him the extra muscle needed for that level of control. Without that, and with the atrocity of Alderaan, his control should be weakened. The model here is closer to the British Empire than a proper totalitarian state pre-Alderaan.

As for controlling the core worlds, presumably their industrial base were the most loyal worlds in the Empire. And if not, they would have been the ones with proper garrisons(Lothal, despite being a backwater, qualifies as this given that they had TIE factories). The core worlds would have been the ones who benefited from the imperialism in the outer rim and thus would have had no reason to object to it. If you want your three speeders and your hundred square meter dwelling on Coruscant, then we must continue oppressing Lothal. Palpatine was always good at playing both sides against the middle, there is nothing to indicate that this changed with his takeover of the throne.

If the Emperor wanted to have the same level of military control in the core that he easily had in the outer rim it would require the ability to defeat planetary shielding. Without garrisons on every major core world, which Alderaan shows they clearly don't have, it requires a Death Star. The only other alternative is a massing a fleet for a long term siege, a concentration of forces less than ideal when fighting an insurgency.

I would say that the Empire pretty clearly had impressive military capability in the Core based on the films. The fact that Palpatine visiting the second Death Star is seen as making him more vulnerable and no one ever suggests attacking the capital suggests that Coruscant was very well-defended indeed, to the point that any rebel assault prior to the Empire's defeat at Endor would have been futile. And I very much doubt that it was the only world so defended.

[AniThyng]

If Imperial atrocities were being done in the outer rim exclusively, then it would be possible that the core worlds went along with it as revenge for the Clone Wars(similarly, though on a much larger scale, to American responses to 9/11). If it wasn't until later that Palpatine began attempting to exploit the Core, around the time of ANH, conveniently when the Death Star was available to give him the extra muscle needed for that level of control. Without that, and with the atrocity of Alderaan, his control should be weakened. The model here is closer to the British Empire than a proper totalitarian state pre-Alderaan.

As for controlling the core worlds, presumably their industrial base were the most loyal worlds in the Empire. And if not, they would have been the ones with proper garrisons(Lothal, despite being a backwater, qualifies as this given that they had TIE factories). The core worlds would have been the ones who benefited from the imperialism in the outer rim and thus would have had no reason to object to it. If you want your three speeders and your hundred square meter dwelling on Coruscant, then we must continue oppressing Lothal. Palpatine was always good at playing both sides against the middle, there is nothing to indicate that this changed with his takeover of the throne.

If the Emperor wanted to have the same level of military control in the core that he easily had in the outer rim it would require the ability to defeat planetary shielding. Without garrisons on every major core world, which Alderaan shows they clearly don't have, it requires a Death Star. The only other alternative is a massing a fleet for a long term siege, a concentration of forces less than ideal when fighting an insurgency.

I would say that the Empire pretty clearly had impressive military capability in the Core based on the films. The fact that Palpatine visiting the second Death Star is seen as making him more vulnerable and no one ever suggests attacking the capital suggests that Coruscant was very well-defended indeed, to the point that any rebel assault prior to the Empire's defeat at Endor would have been futile. And I very much doubt that it was the only world so defended.

It doesn't matter if all those military assets are tied down maintaining control in the core - that's why Star Destroyers with their versatility and range are ubiquitous, being the largest ships that can be regularly rushed from one trouble spot to another, while all the heavy capital ships are holding down order, or range limited to local defense or just not allowed out of sight of political control lest they become powerful problems... I mean lets take sector fleets on the scale of powerful core worlds like Kuat or Corellia - thier capital ships probably aren't going anywhere out of sight of very loyal imperial control lest they go over to the rebellion.

[AniThyng]

I'd venture to guess that the bulk of the Imperial Starfleet (I steadfastly refuse to call it the Imperial Navy) was mostly used to surveil and even blockade suspected rebellious, but heavily defended worlds (e.g. Dac). Satisfied that none of those worlds could launch attacks or supply matériel to the rebellion without confirming the Empire's suspicions or exposing themselves to bombardment, their primary objective would then be to locate and destroy the hidden rebel base because that's where all of their offensives originated from.

This is my head canon explanation for why such a small rebel base was such an important target for the Empire.

Well if we look at the real world, comparatively small terror groups still somehow manage to tie down in one way or another entire american carrier battle groups or battallions when you factor in the necessity of holding the region while the special forces try to find the terror cell and so on. Sure, in the end all you need is one airstrike or a seal team raid, but to secure the ground for that needs disproportionate military strength.

[Galvatron]

This would make sense, that it was its function as a hidden base for long range starfighters that made it so valuable. We see the same thing at Hoth. We certainly see that they have they range to cross hundreds of lightyears in hours from ROTJ, it would thus make sense that Yavin was in a position from which they could strike at something of consequence. Though what could possibly be worth attacking with only handful of starfighters? Convoys should have been in hyperspace at their most vulnerable times.

The opening crawl in ANH tells us that "Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon..."

I'm guessing they were mostly used for hit-and-run strikes against vulnerable Imperial targets, like space stations or production facilities, perhaps in conjunction with rebel saboteurs who would infiltrate the targets and disable their defenses first.

[The Romulan Republic]

What that suggests is that the fighters were used as a diversion to let the spies do their job more easily.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, for that particular battle. Since they only had to do that once, what I'm talking about is how the rebel fighters were mainly in other offensive ops.

[Adam Reynolds]

I would say that the Empire pretty clearly had impressive military capability in the Core based on the films. The fact that Palpatine visiting the second Death Star is seen as making him more vulnerable and no one ever suggests attacking the capital suggests that Coruscant was very well-defended indeed, to the point that any rebel assault prior to the Empire's defeat at Endor would have been futile. And I very much doubt that it was the only world so defended.

It helps that the second Death Star can be blown up and that the shields around it can be sabotaged from Endor. And of course Coruscant would undoubtedly have the strongest defenses anywhere in the galaxy. My point was about Core worlds that are less than entirely loyal, like Alderaan. And the fact that the Empire was willing to use the Death Star against it indicates that such worlds usually did not have permanent garrisons, even when there is a question regarding its loyalty.

It doesn't matter if all those military assets are tied down maintaining control in the core - that's why Star Destroyers with their versatility and range are ubiquitous, being the largest ships that can be regularly rushed from one trouble spot to another, while all the heavy capital ships are holding down order, or range limited to local defense or just not allowed out of sight of political control lest they become powerful problems... I mean lets take sector fleets on the scale of powerful core worlds like Kuat or Corellia - thier capital ships probably aren't going anywhere out of sight of very loyal imperial control lest they go over to the rebellion.

the ICS books, though now non canon, make reference to larger vessels exactly as you describe, intended specifically to protect Kuat just before the Clone Wars. In that era they had only limited hyperdrives, barely unable to even leave the system. Based on the TF battleships in TPM being exactly the opposite, extremely long range but extremely limited weapons, I would assume that there was some sort of treaty limitation at the time that allowed either range or heavy weapons but not both.

During the era of the Empire however we see the ubiquitous heavily armed and long range Star Destroyers being used for literally everything, with three actually present around the nothing world of Tatooine. And Han's lack of surprise with seeing them in general, though he was surprised that they were on Tatooine itself, implies that they are a somewhat common thing to run into. But his reference to local bulk cruisers does imply there is something more common used for planetary defense that is much slower and easier to dodge.

Well if we look at the real world, comparatively small terror groups still somehow manage to tie down in one way or another entire american carrier battle groups or battallions when you factor in the necessity of holding the region while the special forces try to find the terror cell and so on. Sure, in the end all you need is one airstrike or a seal team raid, but to secure the ground for that needs disproportionate military strength.

That would be part of what made the Death Star valuable, it would be able to operate without much in the way of outside support.

I'm guessing they were mostly used for hit-and-run strikes against vulnerable Imperial targets, like space stations or production facilities, perhaps in conjunction with rebel saboteurs who would infiltrate the targets and disable their defenses first.

That would make sense, and it would fit Tagge's comments about the Rebel Alliance being dangerous and too well equipped. Sabotage would certainly explain how lightly armed fighters could do appreciable damage. And in general they are basically using starfighters for guerrilla tactics in space. Tactics in which direct strength is largely irrelevant Stealing the Death Star plans was presumably a rare operation, though an unsually effective one. Presumably it also led to higher casualties that limited the number of fighters that were used against the Death Star.

And if Rebels is any indication, the cell at Yavin was one of many and they only really linked up properly for Endor. The Yavin cell was simply the one that was involved in all operations against the Death Star and took in Luke Skywalker.

[Galvatron]

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if Yavin IV was THE rebel base. I can imagine a great many safe houses, tiny outposts and ship-based cells scattered throughout the galaxy, but I doubt there were any that were large or well enough equipped to qualify as actual bases.

[NeoGoomba]

I would. When your officers are accused of war crimes against their own population and Palpatine reacts by just promoting them to a better job elsewhere and can get away with it even when everybody in the Core Worlds knows about it (Tarkin novel), then that system is totalitarian.

To be fair, wasn't Tarkin "demoted" publicly to the backwater post where he could oversee the construction of the Death Star? I seem to remember the intrigue about his assignment seeming like the political, civilian, and military leadership, at least at be beginning of the novel, felt that his star was falling with the Emperor due to his harsh actions (Granted it was all a ruse to put a high-ranking, trusted officer in charge of the doomsday device without everyone knowing about it).

[Thanas]

To be fair, wasn't Tarkin "demoted" publicly to the backwater post where he could oversee the construction of the Death Star?

No, not after the atrocities he inflicted came out. He got immediately promoted after that.

There are people who could level the same accusations against the US and others who would just as fervently deny that we are a totalitarian state. However, if the President suddenly disbanded Congress and nuked Geneva, it'd be obvious who was right.

No, there are no accusations that can be levelled against the USA that the President promoted a guy who slaughtered people he knew to be civilians - like in the "massacre US village" way.

Back to the comic - the second issue isn't that great. First, the old "Super Star Destroyer" debate is reigniting again by Vader and Tagge using it as an official ship designation to describe ship classes.Then, the Starfleet suddenly has several ship classes that look like somebody took the worst Dark Empire mashups and put them into a blender.

But all of that could be forgiven.

Except for this: Minimalism is back by having the empire rely on supplies procured by Jabba the Hutt and those supplies being of critical importance. So critical that both Vader and Tagge are micromanaging them.

[Galvatron]

No, there are no accusations that can be levelled against the USA that the President promoted a guy who slaughtered people he knew to be civilians - like in the "massacre US village" way.

I'm reading Tarkin now. I'll comment on that when I finish it.

Back to the comic - the second issue isn't that great. First, the old "Super Star Destroyer" debate is reigniting again by Vader and Tagge using it as an official ship designation to describe ship classes.

I never expected them to stop using it as a colloquialism, which is how Vader and Tagge used it. It's not like he said "Super-class Star Destroyers" or anything like that. And they never even showed us what the SSD Annihilator looked like from the outside. I'd be interested to see if it was something other than an Executor-class ship.

And let's face it, Vader called it "my star destroyer" in the TESB:SE. It's not like the whole thing is an EUism.

Then, the Starfleet suddenly has several ship classes that look like somebody took the worst Dark Empire mashups and put them into a blender.

I saw one small panel with what looked like Venators sporting ISD bridges. Given the size of the conning tower relative to the rest of the ship, I could see them being another transitional ship design roughly the size of the old Venators.

But all of that could be forgiven.

Except for this: Minimalism is back by having the empire rely on supplies procured by Jabba the Hutt and those supplies being of critical importance. So critical that both Vader and Tagge are micromanaging them.

Meh, they kept it vague enough that I barely even noticed. Again, it's my theory that the Empire suffered considerably for what happened Yavin; supply shortages being only one of the consequences.

[Darksider]

But all of that could be forgiven.

Except for this: Minimalism is back by having the empire rely on supplies procured by Jabba the Hutt and those supplies being of critical importance. So critical that both Vader and Tagge are micromanaging them.

Well that's just fucking wonderful. Why am I getting the impression that the Star Wars galaxy is going to be a much tinier place in the NuCanon?

Some backwater hick crime lord shouldn't even be on Vader's fucking radar. It's Hondo from TCW all over again.

[Galvatron]

I get the feeling that Jabba was actually quite well known and powerful. In fact, my theory is that Tatooine's only claim to fame was that it was Jabba's home. After all, the "blasted its way out of Mos Eisley" line from ANH implied to me that even a man as important as Tarkin would know where that was.

[The Romulan Republic]

I suspect Tarkin would be familiar with Mos Eisley because that's where the search for the plans for the Death Star was going on, regardless of weather he was familiar with it before hand.