Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

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Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

So far, I'm enjoying it quite a bit, if for no other reason than because this new canon vindicates a longstanding and unpopular theory of mine that the Death Star's destruction was a crippling blow against the Empire...
Galvatron wrote:"Impossible! How will the emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"

I've always felt that the Empire functioned very similarly to the Republic for the majority its duration up until the dissolution of the Imperial Senate. After that, the galaxy was basically in a state of martial law for the following 3.5 years until Palpatine's death.

I imagine that this relatively brief period was one of great turmoil as whole sectors rebelled against the emperor--who was suddenly deprived of his trump card against the more heavily defended inner systems: the Death Star. IMO, the emperor was not firmly in control of the galaxy post-ANH and was therefore scrambling to deal the rebellion a crushing blow simply to keep his dominion from falling apart. Hence the urgency in building a second Death Star. It wasn't just a "terror weapon." He needed it.
The following page scans contain spoilers, but I think you'll see what I mean:
Spoiler
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Adam Reynolds »

This would certainly explain how the Rebels amassed such a large fleet at Endor. If the Empire's control was never absolute, they would be able to actually build a serious fleet unmolested. It would also explain why the Emperor put all his eggs in one basket with Endor, he politically couldn't afford to wait until it was built. I wonder what the state will be in the new films to follow up on this? It would make sense that no one is really in power and the Empire and Rebel Alliance/New Republic both have little control of the galaxy.

Oddly enough this picture of the galaxy actually somewhat fits the rather bad expansion pack to Empire at War, Forces of Corruption.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Gaidin »

It actually fits. Without the overlarge fear-stick, it basically sends the people scrambling for power-grabs after RotJ or so I would think.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

I'm still basking in the glow of the new EU having swept away all that "it's just a terror weapon" nonsense in once fell swoop. That last bit about Tagge is very interesting as well.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Simon_Jester »

Uh, what nonsense? Could you expand on that?

Also, hm. The old-EU figures for the Imperial fleet strength and number of settled worlds suggested that there are a lot more inhabited planets than there are major Imperial warships.

That low ratio of force to space may help tie into what you're talking about. Even if the Empire has uncontested control of its core territory, there is a huge hinterland that it cannot maintain more than a tenuous presence in.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

Simon_Jester wrote:Uh, what nonsense? Could you expand on that?
I could search the site for old posts and find plenty of them, but the gist of the counterargument was that the Death Star had no real strategic value, was completely superfluous to the Imperial fleet and was built simply because the Emperor and/or Tarkin just wanted a big toy with which to intimidate the galaxy. People who made that argument tended to overlook the existence of planetary shields and thought that star destroyers could just BDZ any planet at will.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ah. I see.

Yes; the Base Delta Zero (which is entirely part of the old EU, now that I think about it) would definitely be limited to terror operations against unshielded worlds. I mean, the rebels can steal a shield generator capable of surviving at least limited bombardment from Executor* and use it at Hoth. I'd think that a scaled-up version of the same shield could presumably protect an entire planet from anything a mere star destroyer can throw at it.

*Even if Executor could hammer down the rebel base shield on Hoth, it seems fairly sure that they could not do so casually or without a disproportionate expenditure of energy.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

It's commonly believed that Alderaan was totally encompassed by an otherwise impenetrable planetary shield. It's defenses like that which necessitated the creation of the Death Star.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Borgholio »

General Veers clearly stated that they could not penetrate Hoth's shield from orbit. It's only sensible to assume he was referring to the entire fleet's combined firepower. And if the Rebel Scum™ can find that kind of shield, large and wealthy worlds like Alderaan could easily afford shields that could stop any normal fleet.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Elheru Aran »

IIRC, while there are no specifically named BDZ operations, there are a few incidents of planetary bombardment in Clone Wars, which remains canon... I think. So you can extrapolate from that.

I suspect that Veers' claim about the shield was as much a matter of tactical expediency as anything else; they needed to be able to take Echo Base before the Rebels all managed to squirt out from under their shield. Given enough time, they could've simply melted the crust of the entire planet, which would have made Echo Base slightly unsustainable... but the Rebels would have probably escaped well before then (albeit having to run the Imperial blockade).
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

Borgholio wrote:General Veers clearly stated that they could not penetrate Hoth's shield from orbit. It's only sensible to assume he was referring to the entire fleet's combined firepower. And if the Rebel Scum™ can find that kind of shield, large and wealthy worlds like Alderaan could easily afford shields that could stop any normal fleet.
That was not always the popular line of thinking, however. EU wankers (not to mention some SWvST debaters) loved the idea of invincible Imperial star destroyers. I had to continually point out that TESB showed us top-of-the-line Imperial warships were not only virtually useless against planetary shields but were also highly vulnerable against planetary weaponry (e.g. the rebel ion cannon).
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Simon_Jester wrote:Ah. I see.

Yes; the Base Delta Zero (which is entirely part of the old EU, now that I think about it) would definitely be limited to terror operations against unshielded worlds. I mean, the rebels can steal a shield generator capable of surviving at least limited bombardment from Executor* and use it at Hoth. I'd think that a scaled-up version of the same shield could presumably protect an entire planet from anything a mere star destroyer can throw at it.

*Even if Executor could hammer down the rebel base shield on Hoth, it seems fairly sure that they could not do so casually or without a disproportionate expenditure of energy.
Actually, it came up in a thread here a while ago that the term Base Delta Zero was referenced on the show Rebels. I suppose it could have a different meaning now, but I doubt it.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

I'm reading issue #2 now and continuing to admire the direction this new EU is taking.
Spoiler
Not only did Tagge survive ANH, he's been promoted to Grand General and Vader now answers directly to him. It's nice to see a return to the way other Imperial officers weren't afraid to mouth off to Vader in ANH.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Adam Reynolds »

In terms of the idea of keeping the peace in the same fashion as the Old Republic, it would make sense that they would in effect be replacing the Jedi with the Imperial military. With the Death Star it would be possible to have complete control, without the Senate.
Galvatron wrote:It's commonly believed that Alderaan was totally encompassed by an otherwise impenetrable planetary shield. It's defenses like that which necessitated the creation of the Death Star.
This also fits the apparent difficulty of the Outer Rim Sieges mentioned in ROTS. Presumably the Republic went up against planetary shielding there as well. Though given that we never saw full planetary shields in the Clone Wars series, perhaps the technology proliferated more as the Clone Wars died down and the Empire tried to consolidate its power. As more prosperous worlds saw the destruction caused by the first galactic war in a millennia, they began to realize just how destructive serious naval weapons* could be and began developing at least theater shields. Full encompassing planetary shields were also presumably build in large numbers in the core worlds, hence Alderaan having one.

* Given that in TPM the Trade Federation battleship had only point defense guns and that the Republic cruiser shown was completely unarmed, it was likely that serious heavy naval weapons were extremely limited in their deployment. The AOTC ICS also stated that there were heavier capital ships found around core worlds, but that they were incapable of deploying to the front lines. Presumably there were treaty restrictions on capital ships. Either they could mount serious weapons or long range hyperdrives, not both. The rearming for the Clone Wars changed this and we see proper capital ships fighting for the first time in at least a millennia.

And it is also possible that this time around the destruction is far greater than it was previously. Given that there are currently no canon sources from this era, it is effectively impossible to judge, but based on what we saw in KOTOR it appears that weapons are much less powerful overall. The damage done to Taris certainly wasn't in the MT-GT range of Clone Wars/Imperial era turbolasers. This also fits the fact that personal shields were common in that era and cotorsis was commonly used in armor and swords, enough so that lightsabers frequently had a hard time penetrating them. This would have been impossible against stronger weapons. And in the Darth Bane trilogy we saw that the Republic still used capital ship designs from the KOTOR era, even 3,000 years later, implying that the technology hadn't advanced that much. Cotorsis was also presumably still used heavily in this era as Bane was a miner of it before becoming the Sith Lord. Presumably there was something of a technological renaissance during the millennia of peace in which things advanced significantly*.
* Clone Wars shows that Darth Bane exists if nothing else, though the rest of these comments are almost entirely speculation based on a now non-canon source.
Galvatron wrote:That was not always the popular line of thinking, however. EU wankers (not to mention some SWvST debaters) loved the idea of invincible Imperial star destroyers. I had to continually point out that TESB showed us top-of-the-line Imperial warships were not only virtually useless against planetary shields but were also highly vulnerable against planetary weaponry (e.g. the rebel ion cannon).
In the old EU there were also weapons like Torpedo Spheres that were able to break through shields with finesse and localized firepower rather than raw power. Presumably such things were in limited use, otherwise Vader would have one. Though the Clone Wars era destroyer all have heavy torpedo launchers for presumably the same purpose of planetary bombardment, though there is no mention of what to do against shields. It's possible that most shields used during the Clone Wars were theater rather than encompassing, thus the heavy reliance on ground armies.
Borgholio wrote:General Veers clearly stated that they could not penetrate Hoth's shield from orbit. It's only sensible to assume he was referring to the entire fleet's combined firepower. And if the Rebel Scum™ can find that kind of shield, large and wealthy worlds like Alderaan could easily afford shields that could stop any normal fleet.
Wayne Poe's old site argued that what it really meant was a clean bombardment. I believe the radio dramas backed up this interpretation. Though given that those aren't canon anymore, what we see is what we get, It is probably more that it would take too long to realistically break through, not that it would be completely impossible.
Elheru Aran wrote:IIRC, while there are no specifically named BDZ operations, there are a few incidents of planetary bombardment in Clone Wars, which remains canon... I think. So you can extrapolate from that.
In the series or in earlier sources? Only the series is still canon and I can't remember any examples from it, though it is possible that I missed it somewhere, I haven't seen the entire series.
The Romulan Republic wrote:Actually, it came up in a thread here a while ago that the term Base Delta Zero was referenced on the show Rebels. I suppose it could have a different meaning now, but I doubt it.
Amusingly it is mentioned in Imperial Propaganda as a means of planetary liberation, something that is scoffed at by the characters. Based on what we have seen from the novels released recently, as well as Clone Wars/Rebels, it seems that many of the general setting details from the EU are unchanged, simply that most of the events have been altered. Though Simon is right that it would logically only work against unshielded worlds. And as the worlds worth occupying likely had shields, that leads to something of a problem.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by AniThyng »

A tad ironic that the General is the one with a beloved fleet :D
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Gaidin »

Galvatron wrote: That was not always the popular line of thinking, however. EU wankers (not to mention some SWvST debaters) loved the idea of invincible Imperial star destroyers. I had to continually point out that TESB showed us top-of-the-line Imperial warships were not only virtually useless against planetary shields but were also highly vulnerable against planetary weaponry (e.g. the rebel ion cannon).
Well, not to defend the EU wankers because I ride them as much as the next person, but the EU actually covered them fairly well given the protocols required to implement a BDZ(order of the Emperor), and the objectives they had that required an otherwise intact planetary crust that a BDZ would've made impossible didn't it?

I might be blurring the lines here, but if so...clear it up?
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

AniThyng wrote:A tad ironic that the General is the one with a beloved fleet :D
"Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battle station." Even more ironic is that an admiral said that to a general.
Gaidin wrote:
Galvatron wrote: That was not always the popular line of thinking, however. EU wankers (not to mention some SWvST debaters) loved the idea of invincible Imperial star destroyers. I had to continually point out that TESB showed us top-of-the-line Imperial warships were not only virtually useless against planetary shields but were also highly vulnerable against planetary weaponry (e.g. the rebel ion cannon).
Well, not to defend the EU wankers because I ride them as much as the next person, but the EU actually covered them fairly well given the protocols required to implement a BDZ(order of the Emperor), and the objectives they had that required an otherwise intact planetary crust that a BDZ would've made impossible didn't it?

I might be blurring the lines here, but if so...clear it up?
I'm not sure what you're getting at. :?:
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Gaidin »

Galvatron wrote: I'm not sure what you're getting at. :?:
Starfleet captains and even Vader, as I understand it can't order a BDZ for the same reason nobody but our President can order a Nuke launch I thought. That shield's staying up because the war hammer analogous tool is not available. And even if it was, they sort of need that planetary crust intact so they can send troops in to do things...on stable ground. You know...so please fleet...use a screwdriver to open the locked door instead of the warhammer. Appropriate tools for appropriate jobs. You have an entire damned military of many different technologies for this very reason. This is why, if I were to assume the BDZ were even available for them to request, they might not even make the call to Coruscant. But that's just me.

But back to the BDZ of all things? Well, we can theorize how long it would take that official order to go down through channels and reach them. But how much good would it even do?
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by RogueIce »

To be fair to the old EU, Zahn did intimate in the Hand of Thrawn Duology that indeed, the galaxy was not a stable place, with his comment about much of the Imperial Starfleet being tied up in policing the galaxy, with only a small fraction facing off against the Rebels.

Granted this was said in the context of interplanetary squabbles, not outright defiance of Imperial Center. Still, as we saw in the series, some actors were willing to engage in lethal sabotage* of New Republic military forces in order to prevent their intervention. Such things could have easily occurred with Imperial forces, as well.

*Had it not been for Corran Horn's Force intuition, Rogue Squadron's X-wings would have been blown up when they tried to save that one station or whatever it was. So some governments were willing to go as far as murdering 12 New Republic military officers and destroying a fighter squadron to settle up old scores.

Granted that also bespoke of the New Republic's weakness as a government, that a member government even considered such an act worthwhile, and that they could "get away with it" - or at least whatever punishment would be deemed worthwhile - rather than facing swift and certain reprisal for what would certainly qualify as an Act of War. IIRC they never did really respond to it aside from Bel Iblis being pissed off, although granted no NRDF personnel were killed.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by AniThyng »

yeah I think it should be a given that the empire cannot garrison all its territories without compromises, no matter how heavily militarized it could get.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

RogueIce wrote:To be fair to the old EU, Zahn did intimate in the Hand of Thrawn Duology that indeed, the galaxy was not a stable place, with his comment about much of the Imperial Starfleet being tied up in policing the galaxy, with only a small fraction facing off against the Rebels.
My original point was about the state of the galaxy following the destruction of the first Death Star.

First, imagine all the worlds that were either on the fence or starting to sympathize with the rebellion just prior to ANH. Now imagine how they probably reacted after the Empire a) disbanded their representation in the Senate, b) committed an act of genocide by destroying Alderaan and c) lost their biggest deterrent against the growing rebellion.

I imagine there were quite a few more rebel sympathizers in the galaxy in the days following ANH, to put it mildly.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Havok »

I still don't like the way the dialogue comes out from Vader and the Emperor, it just doesn't sound like them, but the overall tone is nice and I also like the emphasis on how important the DS was to the Empire and how it tied in directly to the disbandment of the Senate.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Borgholio »

Havok wrote:I still don't like the way the dialogue comes out from Vader and the Emperor, it just doesn't sound like them
That's the only gripe I had about reading these pages. The dialogue isn't what I would expect them to actually say for some reason. The artwork however, is splendid.
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Galvatron »

I try to read it in McDiarmid's and JEJ's voices. That helps some. Issue #3 is especially entertaining, if a bit goofy.
Havok wrote:I still don't like the way the dialogue comes out from Vader and the Emperor, it just doesn't sound like them, but the overall tone is nice and I also like the emphasis on how important the DS was to the Empire and how it tied in directly to the disbandment of the Senate.
It brings a tear to my eye to see you say that. I never seemed to gain any traction with that theory back in the old days, but this new canon is a game-changer. :D
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Re: Marvel's Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Borgholio wrote:
Havok wrote:I still don't like the way the dialogue comes out from Vader and the Emperor, it just doesn't sound like them
That's the only gripe I had about reading these pages. The dialogue isn't what I would expect them to actually say for some reason. The artwork however, is splendid.
The voice not feeling like the movie characters was always one of the largest problems with the EU. Han Solo was generally affected the worst with this problem. Though even Return of the Jedi suffered from this somewhat.
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