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In AOTC, Obi Wan shouts at Anakin that he will be "expelled from the Jedi Order."

Now, I have two questions on this. The first is, what happens to those who are expelled? Presumably having Force powers would make you highly attractive to businesses so I can't imagine it would be too hard to get a new job, unless there's some Republic-sanctioned ban on ex-Jedi working or something.

Second, given Anakin's situation, this seems like the worst possible threat to make. Its the Jedi's rules that are causing his problems, if he were no longer part of the Order he would no longer be bound not to fall in love. As for finding a job or whatever, Palpatine was already highly interested and woudl have taken Anakin's side, probably made him a diplomat or a General or something. Which pushes Anakin even closer to Palpatine and leaves no Jedi around to balance the Sith's arguments.

Of course, Obi Wan doesn't know that, but still.

Anyone else have any thoughts on either question/issue?

Just goes to show how full of shit the Jedi rules really are. I'm reasonably certain a large number of Dark Jedi and Sith came out of those who were expelled.

"You don't follow our rules, then you can leave. Go out on your own, with the benefit of years of training, skill in The Force, anger management issues, and no oversight."

Yeah, great idea.

Thing is, for the average jedi knight being expelled must indeed sound like a terrible threat. You have to remember that these are people who were raised since childhood by a monastic order. The order and its rules are all they know. It's literally not just all they know and have but the very framework through which they see and understand the world. Having that taken away from you, I don't think we can make a proper parallel to that.

Oh I understand why it's a serious threat for most Jedi, it just occurred to me that for Anakin it's, well, not exactly a terrible alternative if he can help Padme.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Oh I understand why it's a serious threat for most Jedi, it just occurred to me that for Anakin it's, well, not exactly a terrible alternative if he can help Padme.

Not just for him. Paradoxically the only ones who would be in serious threat of being expelled are probably those that are so far gone that they don't care any more. The more I think about the order the more my brain just ties it self into knots.

Jedi are actively discouraged from befriending people outside the Order, from what I understand. They can be polite and everything, but that no-attachment thing makes it hard to actually bond with people. So getting expelled from the Order basically means you've been cut off from anybody who could resemble a family member of friend to you. Look at how a some religions handle things when they're so overwhelming in a locale that you get shunned for not being one of them. Get kicked out of the club and suddenly everyone you knew to any extent is treating you like an unperson. It's not just about "You aren't in our club anymore." It's basically taking away everyone you know and your entire support group. Any member of a social species is going to take something like that hard unless they're screwed up in the head and don't give a shit about having people around. I imagine that the kinds of stuff that can get you expelled can also lead to the risk of going to prison, too.

Then there's the whole "The Jedi Order is incompetent" angle.

All true. But Mormons can't see the future, move objects with their mind and build their own laser swords. One imagines that if they could they'd find it a lot easier to find new employment/social circles. It's a big galaxy out there, and cloistered though they may be Jedi still grow up on freaking Coruscant. They're not exactly hurting for options.

IIRC, it's possible to dampen or suppress one's force ability with drugs, so the Jedi Order might have something similar to the telepath suppressor from B5 at hand for the former members.

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Jedi are actively discouraged from befriending people outside the Order, from what I understand. They can be polite and everything, but that no-attachment thing makes it hard to actually bond with people. So getting expelled from the Order basically means you've been cut off from anybody who could resemble a family member of friend to you. Look at how a some religions handle things when they're so overwhelming in a locale that you get shunned for not being one of them. Get kicked out of the club and suddenly everyone you knew to any extent is treating you like an unperson. It's not just about "You aren't in our club anymore." It's basically taking away everyone you know and your entire support group. Any member of a social species is going to take something like that hard unless they're screwed up in the head and don't give a shit about having people around. I imagine that the kinds of stuff that can get you expelled can also lead to the risk of going to prison, too.

Then there's the whole "The Jedi Order is incompetent" angle.

Whilst that's true, this threat is only really going to be used against those (like Anakin) that are walking the line already. So odds are that they will already have at least one friend/family memeber/cause to fight for to join after they are kicked from the Order. It's basically used as a veilled question of "which is more important to you, being a Jedi or this person/cause you're involved with?"

It's really offereing them a way out. Which makes it kinda dangerous IMHO.

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC, it's possible to dampen or suppress one's force ability with drugs, so the Jedi Order might have something similar to the telepath suppressor from B5 at hand for the former members.

They can also blind people to the Force if necessary, or at least the Order of 4,000 years ago could, although KOTOR II suggests this is only done in extreme circumstances.

StarSword wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:IIRC, it's possible to dampen or suppress one's force ability with drugs, so the Jedi Order might have something similar to the telepath suppressor from B5 at hand for the former members.

They can also blind people to the Force if necessary, or at least the Order of 4,000 years ago could, although KOTOR II suggests this is only done in extreme circumstances.

so extreme that there's only 2 known cases of that happening, that one dark jedi who followed Exar Kun (but whose name I can't remember)and Revan.

Lord Revan wrote:so extreme that there's only 2 known cases of that happening, that one dark jedi who followed Exar Kun (but whose name I can't remember)and Revan.

I think you're thinking of Ulic Qel-Droma for the first one, but I was under the impression Revan had suffered a head injury and just didn't remember how to access the Force.

I know the Jedi Council tried to Spoiler

Revan they most certainly did mindwipe, though I don't know if they tried to do anything about his access to the Force.


I suspect that basically all the logic behind the Order threatening to boot people out is that they lose contact with basically everyone they know. It doesn't always work, of course. But I did point out that the Order doesn't display spectacular judgement.

As Master K'hhurk once said "a Jedi could make a most comfortable living as a gambler."

Seriously, Dooku just up and left the order years before AotC, nobody seemed to care much. I do seem to remember something about Jedi kids memorizing the "only nineteen to ever leave the Order" presumably discounting the Schism. Qui-Gon was willing to do whatever it took to train Anakin, up to an including leaving the order far behind.

Ahriman238 wrote:As Master K'hhurk once said "a Jedi could make a most comfortable living as a gambler."

That was actually a mildly interesting point addressed in the Darth Plagueis novel - most casinos will demand a blood test to find your midiclorian levels if they suspect you are force sensitive.

Although that wouldn't stop some things like 'private' poker-equivilent games.

atg wrote:

Ahriman238 wrote:As Master K'hhurk once said "a Jedi could make a most comfortable living as a gambler."

That was actually a mildly interesting point addressed in the Darth Plagueis novel - most casinos will demand a blood test to find your midiclorian levels if they suspect you are force sensitive.

Although that wouldn't stop some things like 'private' poker-equivilent games.

I now have this image in my head of Jedi versus Jedi poker games. Adds a whole 'nother mechanic when you and your opponent are both trying to probe the other's mind to see if the other guy is bluffing while simultaneously trying to stop the other guy from probing you.

Or a dice game where both parties are trying to nudge the result like Qui-gon in phantom menace.

I think the bigger post of that threat is more the immediate withdrawal of all Jedi order resources. Which for most would be the bigger, more immediate problem. Suddenly it in the street with the clothes on your back and no money after a life time where you never needed for anything and had an almost unlimited line of credit. Again, but a problem for Anakin who can crash with his girlfriend and hit up his mentor for a job.

Though it would be interesting as a galactic citizen surfing the holonet on day, just on wattoslist to see an ad that reads:
Looking for work.
Ex-Jedi, kicked out of the Jedi Order for loving his Starfighter more then the order.
Qualifications, Use of The Force, Skill with a Lightsaber, pilots license.
Ideal job, Negotiator or diplomat.
Will stoop to being a personal bodyguard and pilot.

When you have mind control and all the other nifty abilities a Jedi has, I imagine it isn't too hard to convince someone to give you a few credits. Be it through "asking" nicely or mugging.

StarSword wrote:I now have this image in my head of Jedi versus Jedi poker games. Adds a whole 'nother mechanic when you and your opponent are both trying to probe the other's mind to see if the other guy is bluffing while simultaneously trying to stop the other guy from probing you.

Which would be one hell of a trainging if you have to prepare for fighting against force-sensitive beings.
And wasn't that a part of the PsiCorp training in Babylon 5, first getting proficient in reading/shielding and then doing it during other activities?

Then again it would also allow Padawans and Knights to hide things from the Masters... which they might consider a security threat.

Ahriman238 wrote: I do seem to remember something about Jedi kids memorizing the "only nineteen to ever leave the Order" presumably discounting the Schism. Qui-Gon was willing to do whatever it took to train Anakin, up to an including leaving the order far behind.

"The Lost Twenty" refers to Masters that left the Order. Not Younglings, Padawans or Knights but the highest possible rank a Jedi can achieve.

I think a somewhat good comparison would be a catholic Cardinal leaving the church for a profane life.

Still, 20 in how many eons. Remember that you are talking thousands and thousands of years when you are talking about the Jedi. Obviously, people leaving or getting kicked out of the Order doesn't happen all that often.

Also when analyzing this you need to take into account the source. In this case it is Lucas so basically nothing in the EU applies as he doesn't even know, nor care, what they have said on the subject.

IIRC the lost 20 were also people who left by their own will and parted with relatively good terms so that people who got kicked, fell to the dark side or joined the Sith wouldn't be counted.

More than likely. But just look at the way they talked about Dooku. It wasn't a feasible though that a Jedi Master would leave and be evil or something. I don't think in Lucas's mind it ever had happened at all, Master or Knight. I mean if you look at it like that, in those terms, it makes what Palpatine did so much more drastic and makes Dooku and then Anakin's fall that much more of a kick in the fucking gut to the Jedi as if one or two Jedi turning could literally doom the Order. It also explains how and why it could catch someone like Yoda by surprise. It had just never happened before in the thousands of years of the Jedi Order.

Dooku also had his family's vast wealth to fall back on, which I'm sure made leaving easier. It's a lot easier to leave the Order that supports you when as soon as you leave you become one of the richest people in the galaxy.

PKRudeBoy wrote:Dooku also had his family's vast wealth to fall back on, which I'm sure made leaving easier. It's a lot easier to leave the Order that supports you when as soon as you leave you become one of the richest people in the galaxy.

That's another little bit of weirdness. I was under the impression Jedi were supposed to cut ties with their families and that most of them didn't even know who their families were. But then we have Dooku, a nobleman from some planet somewhere (Serenno), and Master Adi Gallia, who's apparently part of some family connected with Coruscant's political elite. And then there was that really hairy Jedi Master on the TPM Council, who's actually the king of some minor race (though he abdicated).

Best theory I can come up with is that the Jedi Order isn't quite so above it all as they like to say, and they find it helpful to have connected Jedi keep those connections.

"The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." -Barbossa.
At least that seems to be how the Jedi treat it, when it suits them.