StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I would like to see Saw Gerrera chuck a grenade up Palpatine's robes. There's nothing in canon telling us that Palpatine's feet in ROTJ were real feet and not like robot feet. They can even edit the footage and just have Palpatine's lower legs be replaced with wheels in the scene in ROTJ when he's tossed over.

ray245 wrote:

SAMAS wrote:

ray245 wrote:
Compared to what the rebels have? It would certainly be neat unlimited resources.

With Tarkin as his immediate superior and seemingly having a favourable opinion of you, how often is Thrawn going to be denied stuff? He got a whole new line of production set up.

He's still in a backwater sector, though. One that, as we have seen, can only deploy Star Destroyers for major operations.

Of course he has greater resources than the rebels, it's the freakin' Empire. The Empire doesn't do Underdog.

Saying he should only have fewer resources because of the Thrawn Trilogy is selling him short. Or do you think Zahn is going to get it wrong in his own novel?

Zahn might very well fail to use him effectively because Zahn might not have the optimum setting to use this character well.

My point is certain types of characters depends on certain kinds of setting to be even semi-effective.

And I still say that sells any character short. People, even fictional characters, exist in all kinds of situations. And to "get" a character, you have to know them in all kinds of situations. You can't "get" a character if you only want to see him in one way. What Thrawn is like as a member of the Empire at it's strength is as much a part of his character as he is leading the Imperial Remnant.

The next season should be about how Thrawn's Star Destroyer exploded and Thrawn grabbed some debris to stay afloat and eventually drifted ashore to some horrible sand-filled shithole where he's forced to fight against overwhelming odds in a Teras Kasi tournament where everyone hates him. Also his blue skin gets sunburned easily. We'll see a Grand Admiral become a slave. A slave become a gladiator. And a gladiator defy a Bargon Wanchi Cox Pa HO HO HO HO!

There we see him as BOTH an underdog AND existing in all kinds of situations!

ray245 wrote:

Galvatron wrote:Too bad the showrunners didn't seize this opportunity to cripple the rebel fleet even more by destroying their one and only Mon Cal cruiser. That would explain why the Profundity was the only cruiser present at the Battle of Scarif.

I hope Admiral Raddus gets some development next season. It would give his capture at the end of Rogue One even more impact if we knew more about him.

That would actually have made it into some sort of significant victory. A Mon Cal cruiser might have turned the tide at several engagements against Imperial Stardestroyers. Instead, we get a bunch of Frigates (which are shown to be ineffective against Stardestroyers anyway) being blown to pieces.

Yeah, because there's no way a Star Destroyer could get taken down by a smaller...



...Right.

The Romulan Republic wrote:So, since the Grand Admiral didn't die, is he still going to be the primary villain next season, or are they going to bring in someone new?

They've already had Vader and Thrawn. I don't see what new villain they could bring in for this era who would top that, short of having Palpatine himself show up in person.

Just using some old EU favourites:

The TIE Defender arc isn't wrapped up.
Starkiller - Galen Marek - just say the superweapon is named for him.
Dark Troopers - We've already seen something that looks quite like them, give us the real thing, and let the rebels wreck their faces.
Jerec - "He's an Inquisitor, yes, but he was a Jedi Master in the old order" or dialogue to that effect. Christopher Neame is still alive.
Snoke
A wide set of bounty hunters, and I don't mean Fett.
Hutts.

But short of Jerec (who's going to be a rather unimpressive follow-up to Vader, most likely), most of those are just glorified mooks.

Starkiller... yeah, I suppose they could go their. I'd kind of rather they didn't, though.

Snoke would be an interesting possibility, but if their's a significant backstory to Snoke besides "old alien who uses the Dark Side", isn't that more likely to be explored in the films?

Dash Rendar.

Kanen and Ezra leave pre-Rogue One to double-handedly wipe out the Yuuzhan Vong. There.

As an aside, Nebulon-B frigates may not be much of a threat to Imperial star destroyers, but I daresay they'd present a challenge for the ubiquitous light Imperial cruisers that we've seen in this show so far.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I would like to see Saw Gerrera chuck a grenade up Palpatine's robes. There's nothing in canon telling us that Palpatine's feet in ROTJ were real feet and not like robot feet. They can even edit the footage and just have Palpatine's lower legs be replaced with wheels in the scene in ROTJ when he's tossed over.

That's called Davros. He even throws lightning about from time to time.

SAMAS wrote:What Thrawn is like as a member of the Empire at it's strength is as much a part of his character as he is leading the Imperial Remnant.

And it's worth pointing out that Legends Thrawn didn't crush the rebellion during the Empire's height either.

The Romulan Republic wrote:But short of Jerec (who's going to be a rather unimpressive follow-up to Vader, most likely), most of those are just glorified mooks.

Jerec isn't really that similar to Vader, because he has independent ambition, that Vader lacks. Vader's a beat-stick who preserves the Status Quo, Jerec can be encountered on his own pursuing his own agenda - one to say, kill Palpatine - there's enough force-antics in Rebels to justify it.

For instance, the whole Bendu thing might lure a dark sider with ambition out of the woodwork, someone with a diabolical plot to start a double-empire with extra evil and killing, and he could come within sight of his goal by being thwarted.

That's a high stakes story that you can't do with Vader, because Vader is a goon.

Starkiller... yeah, I suppose they could go their. I'd kind of rather they didn't, though.

Snoke would be an interesting possibility, but if their's a significant backstory to Snoke besides "old alien who uses the Dark Side", isn't that more likely to be explored in the films?

Neither of those was wholly serious.

Jerec would be a useful character to act as a tour guide for those of us who want to see more of the galaxy. If he's scouring historical sites of power for arcane relics, perhaps his quest leads him to Jedha City where he encounters the Guardians of the Whills (e.g. Chirrut Imwe and Baze Malbus).

I'd dig Jerec showing up, honestly. Different flavor of Sith than Vader (Wizard vs Knight) with, as noted above, much more interesting motivations.

I wonder if maybe they'll have to do the inevitable "team-up" with Thrawn to defeat some kind of Vong/Ssi-Ruuk/Scorpius from Farscape advance force or something? Some "outsider" force that keeps the heroes and Thrawn away from the events of Rogue One/A New Hope

SAMAS wrote: Yeah, because there's no way a Star Destroyer could get taken down by a smaller...



...Right.

Only because the Rebels had an actual Mon Cal cruiser pounding on the shields of the Stardestoyers? And the fact that the Rebel fleet had an element of surprise?

The actual series showed how Thrawn managed to kill the Nebulon-B with ease.

Galvatron wrote:

SAMAS wrote:What Thrawn is like as a member of the Empire at it's strength is as much a part of his character as he is leading the Imperial Remnant.

And it's worth pointing out that Legends Thrawn didn't crush the rebellion during the Empire's height either.

No, because he was stuck in the unknown region. Zahn gave that as a reason why Thrawn wasn't around to crush the Rebellion.

ray245 wrote:

SAMAS wrote: Yeah, because there's no way a Star Destroyer could get taken down by a smaller...



...Right.

Only because the Rebels had an actual Mon Cal cruiser pounding on the shields of the Stardestoyers? And the fact that the Rebel fleet had an element of surprise?

The actual series showed how Thrawn managed to kill the Nebulon-B with ease.

Galvatron wrote:

SAMAS wrote:What Thrawn is like as a member of the Empire at it's strength is as much a part of his character as he is leading the Imperial Remnant.

And it's worth pointing out that Legends Thrawn didn't crush the rebellion during the Empire's height either.

No, because he was stuck in the unknown region. Zahn gave that as a reason why Thrawn wasn't around to crush the Rebellion.

SAMAS wrote:[

And I still say that sells any character short. People, even fictional characters, exist in all kinds of situations. And to "get" a character, you have to know them in all kinds of situations. You can't "get" a character if you only want to see him in one way. What Thrawn is like as a member of the Empire at it's strength is as much a part of his character as he is leading the Imperial Remnant.

Zahn stuck Thrawn in the unknown region because that is a good way to explain why Thrawn wasn't around to crush the Rebels. ( pretty sure that is why that place was invented in the first place)

Zahn avoided using Thrawn in settings where he could have a numerical advantage over his opponents.

NeoGoomba wrote:I'd dig Jerec showing up, honestly. Different flavor of Sith than Vader (Wizard vs Knight) with, as noted above, much more interesting motivations.

I wonder if maybe they'll have to do the inevitable "team-up" with Thrawn to defeat some kind of Vong/Ssi-Ruuk/Scorpius from Farscape advance force or something? Some "outsider" force that keeps the heroes and Thrawn away from the events of Rogue One/A New Hope

The heroes are in Rogue One, or at least Hera and Chopper are. The intercom pages a "General Syndulla" and we see Chopper in one brief scene. The Ghost also makes an appearance in the Battle of Scarif.

Somehow I suspect that Thrawn will be dead before the events of Rogue One.

For what it's worth, I didn't mind this depiction of Thrawn that much. It was different from the one in Thrawn Trilogy, but then again, everything else Thrawn-related was different as well, including Zahn's work. And several key elements were in place: Thrawn is intelligent in both versions, but in Rebels he is more cocky (easy enough to understand, he is also younger supposedly, freshly promoted and we don't know what kind of background he's now supposed to have) and more brutal (then again, the original Thrawn was brutal enough, but not to this level). And he also lacks a Pellaeon-type figure to whom open his mind and reasoning. This was not, in my opinion, a smart move: a Watson character is needed for Holmes to make sense if Holmes isn't the view point character. We could sympathize with Pellaeon when he was frusfrated or unsure about Thrawn's actions and why he did them and we could share in Pellaeon's elevation when he understood something or when Thrawn confided in him. That's what lacking now. The closest thing we have are Agent Kallus (and for several reasons that just wouldn't work for long) and Colonel Yularen.

And, quite frankly, the situation is different from Thrawn Trilogy: Thrawn now has someone who is actually his superior (Tarkin) and even though he has more resources than in TTT, he's also beholden to other people. And his authority is not unshakeable even among his own men, as Constantine's actions show. Quite frankly Thrawn has to put up with people he didn't have in the old books, where he clearly trusted his subordinates and their ability to act - here he's clearly underwhelmed by Constantine and I can't imagine him being that happy with Governor Pryce, either. In the books Thrawn could pick whomever he wanted, but he had to make very careful picks, since he lacked men and material (and that's why he loathed Niles Ferrier); now he has much more resources at his disposal, but he can't choose his own command staff and has mission parameters dictated to him.

Plus several things people complain about Thrawn in Rebels were already there: the willingness to engage physically and personally with the enemy, even when it really doesn't make sense, willingness to be brutal and handwave away civilian or unnecessary casualties as "it needed to be done, for Great Justice and Results". Some of the more stupid moves, like allowing the Rebels to humiliate other Imperials, seem to be designed both to study the Rebels AND other Imperials and see what their really worth (with Pellaeon he at least knew from the beginning that the man knew how to command and had enough sense to pull out when everything went stupidly stupid). It is more wasteful than was usual with Thrawn in TTT, but he DID have trouble with getting men and ships in the books, so he had to be very careful with wasting resources. And he hasn't personally been defeated so far whereas Tarkin lost a Star Destroyer in the second episode he appeared. Thrawn hasn't had that kind of blunder.

Could the show have handled him better? Well, he could have been far more effective, yes, and a bit less in-your-face type. But this is not some heresy or blasphemy so much as it is something that carries on from the Clone Wars series and was evident in Rebels even before. Quite frankly, more than SuperThrawn I'd like to have more competent Imperial villains and adversaries all around and to make the Rebels main characters truly be in danger. With Vader they were in personal danger all the time; and at least Thrawn managed to wreck their fleet. That's more than any other villain has managed to do.

Standing out in a sea of incompetent commanders doesn't necessarily make you impressive in any real sense.

ray245 wrote:Standing out in a sea of incompetent commanders doesn't necessarily make you impressive in any real sense.

That's not so much the fault of Thrawn's character, then, but more the fault of the storytelling all around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Thrawn is brilliant mastermind like he was in TTT (with faults of his own), but the way the Empire has been handled so far in the series just doesn't support that kind of character easily. Thrawn's the best shot they've gotten so far, apart from Vader and IMHO they lessened Vader's impact by having Ahsoka survive the ordeal.

Most of Thrawn's shortcomings aren't really his fault, though: Constantine being an arrogant buffoon, for example (while previously, even when being arrogant, he at least FOLLOWED DIRECT ORDERS), or Tarkin ordering to capture the Rebel leadership. I'd say, though, that Tarkin had some really good reasons for it: at this, Senate is still functioning and Tarkin needs some ironclad proof about Rebel activities and leads to get to other Rebel leaders. So while Thrawn could have crushed the Phoenix Cell by wiping them out, it wouldn't help Tarkin's larger plans.

Of course, Thrawn being outwitted by Force-sensitives and the Bendu isn't that much of his fault, either - he didn't know anything about Bendu to begin with and it looks like he has had a whole lot less experience with the Jedi than, say, Tarkin (or Tarkin gave him intel that downplayed Ezra and Kanan's capabilities).

I could see Thrawn and Vader working together next season, actually. Vader, in the new canon, is not a straight-up warrior with no sense of style or finesse, and respects someone with vision (which is why he really detested Tagge in Darth Vader comics, that and Tagge's dismissal of Vader as "mere brute"), and Thrawn's a lot more brutal and callous, so he wouldn't necessarily object to Vader being exceedingly unforgiving (although Vader hasn't really been that even in the new continuity). I wouldn't want something like Jerec to turn up - make original characters who are motivated and dangerous and don't bring everything from old EU back. Plus Vader can work just as well as Jerec, just with better brand recognition for viewers.

In this case it's not like Ezra or Kanan's Force-wielding were directly responsible for the Rebels' survival anyway... and previously, wow, Thrawn hip-shot stunned Ezra.

Tiriol wrote:

ray245 wrote:Standing out in a sea of incompetent commanders doesn't necessarily make you impressive in any real sense.

That's not so much the fault of Thrawn's character, then, but more the fault of the storytelling all around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Thrawn is brilliant mastermind like he was in TTT (with faults of his own), but the way the Empire has been handled so far in the series just doesn't support that kind of character easily. Thrawn's the best shot they've gotten so far, apart from Vader and IMHO they lessened Vader's impact by having Ahsoka survive the ordeal.

Most of Thrawn's shortcomings aren't really his fault, though: Constantine being an arrogant buffoon, for example (while previously, even when being arrogant, he at least FOLLOWED DIRECT ORDERS), or Tarkin ordering to capture the Rebel leadership. I'd say, though, that Tarkin had some really good reasons for it: at this, Senate is still functioning and Tarkin needs some ironclad proof about Rebel activities and leads to get to other Rebel leaders. So while Thrawn could have crushed the Phoenix Cell by wiping them out, it wouldn't help Tarkin's larger plans.

Of course, Thrawn being outwitted by Force-sensitives and the Bendu isn't that much of his fault, either - he didn't know anything about Bendu to begin with and it looks like he has had a whole lot less experience with the Jedi than, say, Tarkin (or Tarkin gave him intel that downplayed Ezra and Kanan's capabilities).

I could see Thrawn and Vader working together next season, actually. Vader, in the new canon, is not a straight-up warrior with no sense of style or finesse, and respects someone with vision (which is why he really detested Tagge in Darth Vader comics, that and Tagge's dismissal of Vader as "mere brute"), and Thrawn's a lot more brutal and callous, so he wouldn't necessarily object to Vader being exceedingly unforgiving (although Vader hasn't really been that even in the new continuity). I wouldn't want something like Jerec to turn up - make original characters who are motivated and dangerous and don't bring everything from old EU back. Plus Vader can work just as well as Jerec, just with better brand recognition for viewers.

If the story doesn't lend itself well to a character like Thrawn, then don't use him.

ray245 wrote:

Tiriol wrote:

ray245 wrote:Standing out in a sea of incompetent commanders doesn't necessarily make you impressive in any real sense.

That's not so much the fault of Thrawn's character, then, but more the fault of the storytelling all around.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to have Thrawn is brilliant mastermind like he was in TTT (with faults of his own), but the way the Empire has been handled so far in the series just doesn't support that kind of character easily. Thrawn's the best shot they've gotten so far, apart from Vader and IMHO they lessened Vader's impact by having Ahsoka survive the ordeal.

Most of Thrawn's shortcomings aren't really his fault, though: Constantine being an arrogant buffoon, for example (while previously, even when being arrogant, he at least FOLLOWED DIRECT ORDERS), or Tarkin ordering to capture the Rebel leadership. I'd say, though, that Tarkin had some really good reasons for it: at this, Senate is still functioning and Tarkin needs some ironclad proof about Rebel activities and leads to get to other Rebel leaders. So while Thrawn could have crushed the Phoenix Cell by wiping them out, it wouldn't help Tarkin's larger plans.

Of course, Thrawn being outwitted by Force-sensitives and the Bendu isn't that much of his fault, either - he didn't know anything about Bendu to begin with and it looks like he has had a whole lot less experience with the Jedi than, say, Tarkin (or Tarkin gave him intel that downplayed Ezra and Kanan's capabilities).

I could see Thrawn and Vader working together next season, actually. Vader, in the new canon, is not a straight-up warrior with no sense of style or finesse, and respects someone with vision (which is why he really detested Tagge in Darth Vader comics, that and Tagge's dismissal of Vader as "mere brute"), and Thrawn's a lot more brutal and callous, so he wouldn't necessarily object to Vader being exceedingly unforgiving (although Vader hasn't really been that even in the new continuity). I wouldn't want something like Jerec to turn up - make original characters who are motivated and dangerous and don't bring everything from old EU back. Plus Vader can work just as well as Jerec, just with better brand recognition for viewers.

If the story doesn't lend itself well to a character like Thrawn, then don't use him.

I think we have a case of miscommunication here, sorry about that: I think that the story in itself (an early Rebellion trying to survive while Imperial leadership starts to take them more seriously due to the presence of Jedi and past humiliations) works fine. It's the storytelling that doesn't flow as it should. Rebels has something of the same problem as early Clone Wars (the series): they straddle the line between being a kids' series and being mature, from time to time dark. Clone Wars managed to outgrow that awkward period, Rebels is still stuck in it with bumbling idiots for adversaries. I wonder, though, if Constantine's death might not give an opening for a more serious officer to replace him, someone who's not so bound on personal glory and has no problem with playing a second fiddle to Thrawn (and doesn't develop combat tunnel vision like Governor Pryce). Kevan Lannister to Thrawn's Tywin Lannister, so to speak.

However, the new continuity seems to work under the assumption that the Imperial bureaucracy and military ARE either inept, brutal or both. And this is not only the Rebels' fault. There are some bright spots, like Darth Vader comic series, but we would need more.

ray245 wrote:Standing out in a sea of incompetent commanders doesn't necessarily make you impressive in any real sense.

THIS

Ray Spruance stands out in the USN in the Pacific, but it's not like he was surrounded by a staff of blithering incompetents fighting with each other over who go to get daddy's coffee next. Likewise other admirals in the fleet. Portraying the Imperials in such a manner, just wastes the character, And makes you wonder, Jesus, how the fuck did the Empire not LOSE SOONER??

Writers: take a bow; then throw them off a fucking tall building with an "Apology Accepted" and get cracking on S4 with the new guys...

Tiriol wrote:
I think we have a case of miscommunication here, sorry about that: I think that the story in itself (an early Rebellion trying to survive while Imperial leadership starts to take them more seriously due to the presence of Jedi and past humiliations) works fine.

But it doesn't lend itself to having a brilliant strategic genius like Thrawn. Because what you end up with is to be forced into a corner, where you need an act of plot to save the heroes. Sure, the Bendu was foreshadowed, but it just feels like bad writing to me.

It's the storytelling that doesn't flow as it should. Rebels has something of the same problem as early Clone Wars (the series): they straddle the line between being a kids' series and being mature, from time to time dark. Clone Wars managed to outgrow that awkward period, Rebels is still stuck in it with bumbling idiots for adversaries. I wonder, though, if Constantine's death might not give an opening for a more serious officer to replace him, someone who's not so bound on personal glory and has no problem with playing a second fiddle to Thrawn (and doesn't develop combat tunnel vision like Governor Pryce). Kevan Lannister to Thrawn's Tywin Lannister, so to speak.

However, the new continuity seems to work under the assumption that the Imperial bureaucracy and military ARE either inept, brutal or both. And this is not only the Rebels' fault. There are some bright spots, like Darth Vader comic series, but we would need more.

I would argue that they simply don't have the budget to tell a story befitting of Thrawn. It's annoying because the trailer gave the false illusion that they could do so. Thrawn works when you have an entire season worth of story showing how he managed to defeat Rebels after Rebels, forcing them to be constantly on the retreat.

A story about Thrawn letting Rebel leadership (Hera) escape time and time again because he needs to find out their base...only to have most of the leadership escape yet again is not something that makes him look impressive in any major way.

Burak Gazan wrote: THIS

Ray Spruance stands out in the USN in the Pacific, but it's not like he was surrounded by a staff of blithering incompetents fighting with each other over who go to get daddy's coffee next. Likewise other admirals in the fleet. Portraying the Imperials in such a manner, just wastes the character, And makes you wonder, Jesus, how the fuck did the Empire not LOSE SOONER??

Writers: take a bow; then throw them off a fucking tall building with an "Apology Accepted" and get cracking on S4 with the new guys...

If they want an merely competent commander, they could easily use other old EU characters like Pallaeon! There's no need to use Thrawn. Use Thrawn when the Imperials are on the backfoot.

Yeah, overall I feel like this was a waste of Thrawn as a character. It cheapens him.