Star Wars: Rebels

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by ray245 » 2018-03-07 05:25pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:47pm
Burak Gazan wrote:
2018-03-07 04:44pm
It also has a smiley-face ignore, that our beloved emperor, kind spirit he is, does nothing to Lothal. Me? Hardheaded bastard who is right INTO revenge... would sent a sector fleet to fucking BURN Lothal and all it's cute widdle fluffy animals to fucking slag. Just BECAUSE I CAN. Come on, people. This is Palpatine. He doesn't do mercy
If they wanted to show the liberation of Lothal, it should have been done in a post-Endor flash forward.

The idea that the Rebellion could hold territory that wasn't behind a planetary shield pre-Endor doesn't really tally well with what we see on-screen in the OT, or with common sense.
That's my biggest issue with the liberation of Lothal the are always talking about. How the hell could the rebellion hold onto planets? Espeically prior to a massive imperial defeat?

If I was Thrawn, I will let the Rebels take Lothal and grind them down in a slow war of attrition. Force the rebellion to be on the defensive and have them commit precious ships and troops defending a planet that's effectively worthless in the long run.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2018-03-07 07:15pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-03-07 05:25pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 04:47pm
Burak Gazan wrote:
2018-03-07 04:44pm
It also has a smiley-face ignore, that our beloved emperor, kind spirit he is, does nothing to Lothal. Me? Hardheaded bastard who is right INTO revenge... would sent a sector fleet to fucking BURN Lothal and all it's cute widdle fluffy animals to fucking slag. Just BECAUSE I CAN. Come on, people. This is Palpatine. He doesn't do mercy
If they wanted to show the liberation of Lothal, it should have been done in a post-Endor flash forward.

The idea that the Rebellion could hold territory that wasn't behind a planetary shield pre-Endor doesn't really tally well with what we see on-screen in the OT, or with common sense.
That's my biggest issue with the liberation of Lothal the are always talking about. How the hell could the rebellion hold onto planets? Espeically prior to a massive imperial defeat?

If I was Thrawn, I will let the Rebels take Lothal and grind them down in a slow war of attrition. Force the rebellion to be on the defensive and have them commit precious ships and troops defending a planet that's effectively worthless in the long run.
You seem to have answered your own question. The obvious explanation is that Lothal just wasn't worth the trouble of taking back; not with the factory destroyed and the temple of no further use. Withou those features, it's just some backwater planet that nobody really cares about.

With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by CaoCao » 2018-03-07 07:19pm

Well, several plot holes there but a good finale anyways.
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Did anyone mention Jacen?

Guess they still have for future series/movies:
- Ahsoka
- Sabine
- Hera
- Ezra
- Kallus
- Zeb
- Rex & Wolfe (though they probably won't be around much longer, being clones)
- Hondo
- Pellaeon
- Thrawn

A pretty good cast.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-03-07 07:21pm

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:15pm
With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.
I agree. Palpatine was more concerned with replacing the Death Star, and Vader was more concerned with finding who the pilot who killed the Death Star was.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by ray245 » 2018-03-07 07:25pm

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:15pm
You seem to have answered your own question. The obvious explanation is that Lothal just wasn't worth the trouble of taking back; not with the factory destroyed and the temple of no further use. Withou those features, it's just some backwater planet that nobody really cares about.

With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.
I'm questioning why did the rebels even think they can hold onto Lothal in the first place. They need to commit significant resources to defending the planet. The rebels had no way of knowing the empire won't come back for them when they liberate Lothal.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2018-03-07 07:41pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-03-07 07:25pm
Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:15pm
You seem to have answered your own question. The obvious explanation is that Lothal just wasn't worth the trouble of taking back; not with the factory destroyed and the temple of no further use. Withou those features, it's just some backwater planet that nobody really cares about.

With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.
I'm questioning why did the rebels even think they can hold onto Lothal in the first place. They need to commit significant resources to defending the planet. The rebels had no way of knowing the empire won't come back for them when they liberate Lothal.
Now that you mention it, that's a fair question. It actually applies to the entire Rebels series, as they'd been going on about it from the very beginning.

It's possible that they had a collective martyr complex, but it doesn't seem that way from the episodes themselves; there's no indication that they somehow know it's hopeless, but mean to do it anyway just to make a point, or to encourage other rebellions elsewhere.

For the moment, I can only conclude that they either greatly overestimate their ability to resist the Empire in a straight fight (which seems odd, considering their experiences), or they're gambling that Lothal is indeed not worth the Empire's trouble to take back. Either way, they come across as painfully naive.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by ray245 » 2018-03-07 07:53pm

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:41pm
Now that you mention it, that's a fair question. It actually applies to the entire Rebels series, as they'd been going on about it from the very beginning.

It's possible that they had a collective martyr complex, but it doesn't seem that way from the episodes themselves; there's no indication that they somehow know it's hopeless, but mean to do it anyway just to make a point, or to encourage other rebellions elsewhere.

For the moment, I can only conclude that they either greatly overestimate their ability to resist the Empire in a straight fight (which seems odd, considering their experiences), or they're gambling that Lothal is indeed not worth the Empire's trouble to take back. Either way, they come across as painfully naive.
I mean the only recent real-world example I can think of with such a behaviour is probably ISIS, with their dreams of building an empire. The problem is they have no real way to hold onto the lands they took, forcing them to commit massive resources in fighting an open battle with Coalition forces. I'm not sure making the rebellion look as stupid as ISIS is a good idea.

It was only by a stroke of luck that the Rebels didn't have to be forced into a long war of attrition to defend Lothal. Lothal would have been too symbolic of a place for the Rebel Alliance to abandon. So they need to commit precious starfighters, ships and manpower to defend the place.

Sure, if Lothal rebel together with hundreds of planets at once, the empire will be stretched too thin to invade Lothal. But the liberation of Lothal took place prior to such a mass rebellion, before Yavin IV and Scarif. So Lothal is just a big fat target for the empire.

Also, Lothal is strategically unimportant for the rebellion. It's not a massive industrial world that can pump out fighters and ships for the rebellion. They are wasting resources defending it.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 08:10pm

Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2018-03-07 08:32pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-03-07 07:53pm
Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:41pm
Now that you mention it, that's a fair question. It actually applies to the entire Rebels series, as they'd been going on about it from the very beginning.

It's possible that they had a collective martyr complex, but it doesn't seem that way from the episodes themselves; there's no indication that they somehow know it's hopeless, but mean to do it anyway just to make a point, or to encourage other rebellions elsewhere.

For the moment, I can only conclude that they either greatly overestimate their ability to resist the Empire in a straight fight (which seems odd, considering their experiences), or they're gambling that Lothal is indeed not worth the Empire's trouble to take back. Either way, they come across as painfully naive.
I mean the only recent real-world example I can think of with such a behaviour is probably ISIS, with their dreams of building an empire. The problem is they have no real way to hold onto the lands they took, forcing them to commit massive resources in fighting an open battle with Coalition forces. I'm not sure making the rebellion look as stupid as ISIS is a good idea.

It was only by a stroke of luck that the Rebels didn't have to be forced into a long war of attrition to defend Lothal. Lothal would have been too symbolic of a place for the Rebel Alliance to abandon. So they need to commit precious starfighters, ships and manpower to defend the place.

Sure, if Lothal rebel together with hundreds of planets at once, the empire will be stretched too thin to invade Lothal. But the liberation of Lothal took place prior to such a mass rebellion, before Yavin IV and Scarif. So Lothal is just a big fat target for the empire.

Also, Lothal is strategically unimportant for the rebellion. It's not a massive industrial world that can pump out fighters and ships for the rebellion. They are wasting resources defending it.
True. In the case of ISIS they either wanted death in battle or seriously overestimated their chances; either by overestimating themselves, underestimating their enemies, or a combination thereof. That they were drugged up on Captagon probably didn't do their judgement much good either.
Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:10pm
Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.
Also true; a fact first really touched-upon on Rogue One. The Rebel Alliance seems to have started out as an essentially political movement, working to undermine the Empire in support of the anti-Imperial faction in the senate, with a view to either forcing Palpatine from power or at least extracting concessions from him.

The best I can say at the moment was that the Lothal rebels were tragically deluded and incredibly lucky. The fact that the Senate was still somewhat able to rein in the Imperial military may have fueled their self-delusion that victory was possible. A rather sad real-world example is the Syrian Civil War, in which all too many Syrian rebels seem to have been driven by the (tragically mistaken) belief that major outside help was on the way.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 08:44pm

I've also long believed that the Empire began fracturing after the Battle of Yavin without the Death Star (and a functioning Senate) to hold it all together. Diverting resources to retake Lothal may have been on their "to do" list, but it may not have been anywhere near the top.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 08:46pm

Yeah.

I mean, you can come up with explanations for it, sure. Nonetheless...

I'm usually willing to give new Star Wars material the benefit of the doubt (partly because the tendency of parts of the fandom to knee-jerk attack has made me unreceptive to a lot of criticisms), but attempts to fit the pre-Endor Galactic Civil War into a conventional WW2-style war or something, with large pitched battles being the norm or each side claiming large swaths of territory openly, it feels off. It bothered me enough when Empire at War did it, and Rebels doesn't have the thin excuse of (unimaginative) gameplay mechanics/balance.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by ray245 » 2018-03-07 08:52pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:10pm
Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.
This is also the Senate that doesn't look too fondly towards Separatists. It's extremely easy for Palpatine to call the Senate to retake Lothal to prevent another Separatist uprising. It is an outer rim planet after all, and one that joined the empire rather recently.

Sure the Senate might be able to stop Imperial leaders from blowing the planet up with Stardestroyers, but I doubt the Senate as a while would object to a conventional military invasion.


Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 08:32pm
True. In the case of ISIS they either wanted death in battle or seriously overestimated their chances; either by overestimating themselves, underestimating their enemies, or a combination thereof. That they were drugged up on Captagon probably didn't do their judgement much good either.
I mean I understand Rebels is meant to be a kids cartoon, but there's just too many issues with world-building. The rebellion has always been romanticised in Star Wars, but the movies at the least make some attempt to depict a rebellion that isn't built upon hope alone. The rebellion did what they are good at, never staying at one spot to hold onto a planet. At the first sight of the Empire, the rebellion will flee their base, no matter how much defenses they have set up.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 08:59pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:52pm
Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:10pm
Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.
This is also the Senate that doesn't look too fondly towards Separatists. It's extremely easy for Palpatine to call the Senate to retake Lothal to prevent another Separatist uprising. It is an outer rim planet after all, and one that joined the empire rather recently.

Sure the Senate might be able to stop Imperial leaders from blowing the planet up with Stardestroyers, but I doubt the Senate as a while would object to a conventional military invasion.
I think you're mistaken in believing that the Senate from ROTS is anything like the Senate during ANH. The political winds had obviously shifted quite a bit over those 20 intervening years.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 09:47pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:59pm
ray245 wrote:
2018-03-07 08:52pm
Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:10pm
Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.
This is also the Senate that doesn't look too fondly towards Separatists. It's extremely easy for Palpatine to call the Senate to retake Lothal to prevent another Separatist uprising. It is an outer rim planet after all, and one that joined the empire rather recently.

Sure the Senate might be able to stop Imperial leaders from blowing the planet up with Stardestroyers, but I doubt the Senate as a while would object to a conventional military invasion.
I think you're mistaken in believing that the Senate from ROTS is anything like the Senate during ANH. The political winds had obviously shifted quite a bit over those 20 intervening years.
Yes.

Unfortunately, it was too late, and the Senate was virtually toothless against the Palpatinist military.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 09:57pm

I disagree. The Imperial military was clearly wary of pissing off the Senate:

"Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out it could generate sympathy for the rebellion in the Senate."
"Send a distress signal and then inform the Senate that all aboard were killed."
"The Rebel Alliance will continue to gain the support of the Imperial Senate..."
"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us."

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-07 10:04pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 08:10pm
Let's not forget that this all took place before the rebels even knew about the Death Star and the Imperial Senate was still somewhat mitigating the Empire's naked aggression.
Which leads me to believe that they didn't know Season 4 would be the last one up until very late Season 3 at the earliest, because they'd been building up the discovery of the Death Star since the first season and then ended the show with no payoff on that front.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 10:08pm

Wasn't Rogue One kinda the payoff?

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-03-07 10:10pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 09:57pm
I disagree. The Imperial military was clearly wary of pissing off the Senate:

"Holding her is dangerous. If word of this gets out it could generate sympathy for the rebellion in the Senate."
"Send a distress signal and then inform the Senate that all aboard were killed."
"The Rebel Alliance will continue to gain the support of the Imperial Senate..."
"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us."
And the Senate was then shortly dissolved, which suggest they were more of an irritant than an existential threat to the Palpatine regime.

Of course, this was partly reliant on the Death Star- and the decision to dissolve the Senate (and blow up Alderan), followed almost immediately by the loss of the Death Star, was a disaster for the Empire. But the Empire was still able to keep the Rebellion on the run for the next few years after that, and still held a substantial advantage in firepower at Endor.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-07 10:16pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-03-07 10:10pm
Of course, this was partly reliant on the Death Star
I'd call that a gross understatement. I don't think the Emperor waited 20 years to disband the Senate, only to do so when the Death Star was finally operational, by sheer coincidence.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by SAMAS » 2018-03-07 10:25pm

RogueIce wrote:
2018-03-07 02:44am
ray245 wrote:
2018-03-06 10:11pm
Vympel wrote:
2018-03-06 06:30pm

Oh god what a terrible idea. Not having seen the finale yet, but to ape something someone else said - Rebels quality has been probably - 65% crap, 15% ok, about 10% great. The first half of Season 4 in particular has been some of the worst he's ever produced.

Rebels is at its best when there's episodes about the mysticism of the Force and the Bendu and what not. It's at its worst pretty much any time there's action. The action in Rebels has - with the exception of pretty much any time Vader or Maul was fighting with a lightsaber - always been pretty goddamn terrible - lacking any sort of kinetic-ism, tension, drama, or creativity.
On the other hand, we know that Rebels is very different from the Clone Wars in terms of the action sequences. So it may have less to do with Filoni but more to do with Disney wanting a more kid-friendly show. Afterall, there were tweets from Pablo Hidalgo saying that TCW had problems attracting new kids to the show.

Filoni might do better with less restriction imposed on him.
While I don't really doubt there was some restriction from on high about violence, what baffles me is how inconsistent they were about it.

Over on Spacebattles there was the whole complaint about them not shooting the stormtroopers directly - but these last few episodes they were gunning stormies down left, right and center. Hell, even Ezra had the thing about not slashing troopers with his lightsaber...except a couple times in "A Fool's Hope" I'm pretty sure he did - or at least was so close to it you could barely tell without slow-moing it.

Like, it'd be one thing if they toned down the violence all around, but sometimes they did and sometimes they didn't. It's weird.

That said, I'd like to see the next series moved off Disney XD; surely there's a Disney TV station that will cater to an older audience? We don't need to go full HBO/Netflix here, but a return to TCW levels of what's acceptable would be nice.
I think they were pretty much in a "series is ending, we have significantly less fucks to give" mode for those last few episodes.

A Fool's Hope in particular, I'm pretty sure the Censors were too concerned with making sure the giant wolves were only figuratively tearing the stormtroopers to pieces.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-03-07 11:36pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-03-07 10:08pm
Wasn't Rogue One kinda the payoff?
Yeah, but Easter eggs aside it wasn't really Rebels' payoff. As I recall, the last the show had anything to do with the Death Star was In the Name of the Rebellion, at the very beginning of the last season, and it punted to Rogue One, but from how they were building it up in the earlier seasons I don't think that was the original plan.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Knife » 2018-03-08 12:36am

Meh, it was ok. I kinda thought they were going to have Ezra and Asoka become Mortis incarnations to take them out of the universe story wise but I guess I was wrong. They just dropped them all together. Ezra's gone because he's gone, same with Asoka. All in all though it was an OK ending. Just enough bait for another series at some point.

I did like a few nuggets though. Palpatine's holo to his earlier self, non wounded? non corrupted self? Really cool.

And the ship at the end with Asoka picking up Sabine, pretty sure it's the same one Anakin and Asoka did a lot of shit on the Clone Wars with.
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by eMeM » 2018-03-08 02:41am

LadyTevar wrote:
2018-03-07 07:21pm
Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:15pm
With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.
I agree. Palpatine was more concerned with replacing the Death Star, and Vader was more concerned with finding who the pilot who killed the Death Star was.
The thing is, the Empire knows Lothal is connected to the Alliance (the Alliance sent a squadron of X-wings a few days before the liberation, Ghost was seen over Scarif), and bumbles around the Galaxy probing random systems instead of checking the only openly Rebel planet in the Galaxy. (Unless something changed and Rebels holding planets is a common occurence in canon)

Not to mention Vader's line in ANH, "Now she is my only link to finding their secret base", no Anakin, you have a link the size of a fucking planet.

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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Juubi Karakuchi » 2018-03-08 08:08am

eMeM wrote:
2018-03-08 02:41am
LadyTevar wrote:
2018-03-07 07:21pm
Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-03-07 07:15pm
With the destruction of the 1st Death Star and the subsequent fighting in the Mid Rim (which the Empire was seemingly winning by RotJ), it's quite possible that the Empire just never got round to retaking Lothal. It had bigger fish to fry.
I agree. Palpatine was more concerned with replacing the Death Star, and Vader was more concerned with finding who the pilot who killed the Death Star was.
The thing is, the Empire knows Lothal is connected to the Alliance (the Alliance sent a squadron of X-wings a few days before the liberation, Ghost was seen over Scarif), and bumbles around the Galaxy probing random systems instead of checking the only openly Rebel planet in the Galaxy. (Unless something changed and Rebels holding planets is a common occurence in canon)

Not to mention Vader's line in ANH, "Now she is my only link to finding their secret base", no Anakin, you have a link the size of a fucking planet.
I have a couple of possible answers.

One is that the Empire sent spies to Lothal to scout it out and analyze the threat posed. Evidently they concluded that Lothal had nothing of any particular interest on it.

The other is that the Empire was terrified of whatever it was made the 7th Fleet literally disappear. In the episode, it was mentioned that Thrawn's blockade was 'gone', and then we see the Purgills hauling his flagship into hyperspace; strongly hinting that the entire fleet had been hijacked. If the Empire tried to investigate, they would find maybe some debris, but nowhere near enough for a fleet of star destroyers; not to mention some strange tales from the locals. It might be enough to make them wary of returning until they know all the facts.

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Galvatron
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Re: Star Wars: Rebels

Post by Galvatron » 2018-03-08 10:20am

Even though it wasn't occupied by an Imperial garrison, I would assume that Lothal was frequently visited by off-worlders enough that evidence of a rebel base being there would have been reported back to the Empire by informants or spies.

That could be the very same reason why Tarkin didn't simply assume that the base on Alderaan either.

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