StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Does this refer to all aspects of the Force, or just long term foresight?

Reading up on some older comments, it seems as though most members assume that the Jedi are actually weaker in AotC and RotS than TPM. Some have used this to justify why Qui Gon and Obi Wan's massive phase-acceleration move in TPM is never replicated in the rest of the movies. It has even been claimed that TPM Obi Wan would have easily crushed his AotC self.

But...if this were true, then how can Yoda match Sidious on an equal footing? Presumably the "shroud of the dark side" would, if anything, strengthen the Dark Lord of the Sith. Does this imply that a full strength Yoda could annihilate Sidious with his pinky? Could TPM Obi Wan easily defeat RotS Sidious, who, when trying to flee from Yoda, does an exaggerated summersault rather than accelerating at 120 Gs and flying out of the palace?

In the original movies Yoda says the dark side isn't actually stronger, just easier. If that is true, which it might not be since he said it as part of Luke's training, it would suggest that the Jedi loosing the ability to use the force is more of a 'clouded/confusion' issue, an idea which the dialogue kind of supports, then a actual reduction in the power of the light side. If this is the case then the raw power of the dark side would be stagnant and independent on Jedi problems. Afterall, Mace Windu still rapidly defeated Sidious, much more quickly then the Sidiousforced Yoda to retreat without being able to corner and kill him. So doesn't sound like Sidious actually was that powerful.

Force powers are still linked to natural talent and training which means its illogical to expect everything to neatly line up in a row. The movie makes it pretty clear that the force powers of the jedi were meaningfully reduced , otherwise they wouldn't care if people knew though, so I think its unlikely that it was merely clouding foresight. It also seems very likely this problem was an uneven one. Yoda is ~30 years from death in RotS out of a 900 year lifespan afterall, and thus elderly. Mace Windu was younger, and younger then Sidious, still in his more or less physical prime and generally more aggressive then Yoda. On the other hand being younger should have given him less training time, but Yoda might have been declining with age mentally as well as physically.

As for Obi Wan, been many years since I saw TPM, but didn't he only use that move on the droid control ship and otherwise fighting driods? I don't recall any super speed in the fight with Maul, and it might just be that another force user could negate that move in action. Yoda may also have been too exhausted from battling the Emperor to use any such power, even if it existed. You could see him under a lot of strain throwing around the speaking platform things in the senate hall.

We don't really know just what else the statement meant.

The only real concrete thing we know is that the Jedi no longer have the ability to predict events in the future and Yoda did so by going through the Dark Side of the Force.

It could mean that their ability to draw on the Force has become "harder", so the amount of candiates who could had become Jedi Knights have reduced, but the light side powers remain the same.

Of course we know what it means. You are missing the KEY part of the scene which provides the context.

It is in regards to using the Force to help the Senate and the Chancellor and help guide the Republic in the way the Jedi usually do.

It doesn't mean JoBlo Jedi can't do back flips, it means that their foresight and sense of what to do is drastically diminished, to the point of being ineffective and the Senate is just as well off trying to see the future themselves to help things along. It certainly doesn't mean that the individuals strength or power in the Force is diminished.

Think of it like this... You have a pair of excellent binoculars. You use them to see things ahead of you. Now, some guy comes along a mile ahead and covers what is ahead of you in fog. Your ability to see things ahead of you is now diminished, but the binoculars are working just fine, they are just useless now, except for seeing things RIGHT in front of you. Which you do when you need to lightsaber fight. Get it?

Havok wrote:Of course we know what it means. You are missing the KEY part of the scene which provides the context.

It is in regards to using the Force to help the Senate and the Chancellor and help guide the Republic in the way the Jedi usually do.

It doesn't mean JoBlo Jedi can't do back flips, it means that their foresight and sense of what to do is drastically diminished, to the point of being ineffective and the Senate is just as well off trying to see the future themselves to help things along. It certainly doesn't mean that the individuals strength or power in the Force is diminished.

Think of it like this... You have a pair of excellent binoculars. You use them to see things ahead of you. Now, some guy comes along a mile ahead and covers what is ahead of you in fog. Your ability to see things ahead of you is now diminished, but the binoculars are working just fine, they are just useless now, except for seeing things RIGHT in front of you. Which you do when you need to lightsaber fight. Get it?

I agree with you. But back when such debates were more common, several SDN members used the "weakening Force" argument to rationalize why Obi Wan and Anakin did not just snap the arena beasts' necks in AotC, or why Kenobi did not simply pin Fett on the ground and crush his weapons with a thought. I wondered if any of them still wanted to argue the point.

Although that only long term foresight is affected seems to imply that precognition is a distinct "part" of the Force, or something.

Yeah it would imply it is distinct, which is a very dubious assertion to make unless someone has very specific evidences for it, since we certainly have lots and lots of generalized evidence against that idea.

If my understanding is correct, the Jedi pre TPM were pretty much unchallenged from the Dark side for a thousand years. Could this line "ability to use the force has diminshed" be more in regards to the confusion that the relatively sudden reintroduction of the Dark Side causes? Along with what was mentioned above in regards to the clouding of foresight.

Although in ESB isn't it made clear that what the Jedi can see a possible future and not the only future? So maybe perhaps its just the sudden introduction of said "clouding" and not a really a diminishing of acutual force strength?

I agree with Hav. I also think it goes hand and hand with the shroud of the darkside. The 'Force' was gearing up for a majory adjustment, invisible hand x10. If you think about it, the ability to see the future in the Force is much more powerful than doing 20m back flips and throwing apples with your mind. Being able to deflect problems before the happen is way more powerful than deflecting problems as they come at you. Now, enter the Force hitting a huge reset button because it is 'unbalanced'. Sidious is powerful enough to 'balance' the force, or at least get the gears moving on that. But, if the major power of the Jedi Order is to see in the future and 'fix' things before they happen, then it is counter productive unless the Force cuts down on that particular power. The Jedi lose their long term far reaching future viewing, naturally assume it's the Sith, call it the 'shroud of the dark side' and flail about some. However; Sidious is also lead down that exact path 20 something years later. He can 'see the future' but his vision is incomplete, he suffers from the 'shroud of the lightside' and doesn't see his defeat by Vader.

So, in short, if you're major A1 power is seeing the future, and the power or entity that give you that power wants to hit the reset button, it clouds the future and you're power is diminished significantly.

So you are asserting that it was the "will of the Force" and not Sidious himself that was clouding the Jedi's usage? Interesting.

He's suggesting it wouldn't be possible to kill them all off if they could see the future clearly, so one needs the other. It's still arguable which way around they go.

Both really.

TrekkieJeff2000 wrote:If my understanding is correct, the Jedi pre TPM were pretty much unchallenged from the Dark side for a thousand years. Could this line "ability to use the force has diminshed" be more in regards to the confusion that the relatively sudden reintroduction of the Dark Side causes? Along with what was mentioned above in regards to the clouding of foresight.

Although in ESB isn't it made clear that what the Jedi can see a possible future and not the only future? So maybe perhaps its just the sudden introduction of said "clouding" and not a really a diminishing of acutual force strength?

The thing is, it was made clear in the ROTS novel that the Jedi can't see into the future at all by that point in time, Yoda could do so only by going through the Dark Side of the Force.

AOTC made it clear that the Jedi ability to use the force to predict future events were becoming weaker.

And the thing is, there is a lot of secondary material that implies that the Jedi Force powers are weaker. That whole blurb in ROTS about creating a clone war that churns up the Force in relation to trapping and killing the Jedi for example..

I remember at the time pitching the idea that the light and dark side of the force are equal "pools" and the ever growing numbers of Jedi had the effect of diluting everyone's abilities.

No idea how badly this is destroyed by the EU or something else though. I never put that much thought into it.

Luke Skywalker wrote:I agree with you. But back when such debates were more common, several SDN members used the "weakening Force" argument to rationalize why Obi Wan and Anakin did not just snap the arena beasts' necks in AotC, or why Kenobi did not simply pin Fett on the ground and crush his weapons with a thought. I wondered if any of them still wanted to argue the point.

Although that only long term foresight is affected seems to imply that precognition is a distinct "part" of the Force, or something.

The question of why they didn't do such and such during a particular incident, probably has somethng to do with using the force is not simply think it and it happens. Whenever we see Jedi in the movies do something impressive, they tend to be concentrating such as Yoda's lifting the X-Wing or halting the falling pillar. It's possible that some feats require more concentration, while others are more instictive. If I throw something at your face you instictively try to doge it or deflect it with your hands, catching it actually requires some concentration on your part.

They may also have philosophical hang ups. It's one thing to "harm" an inanimate object or a nonliving droid, harming another living creature is something else. Remember the Jedi have as much of a philosophical/religious side to them as they do a warrior/wizard side to them. You could probably even argue that the philosophical aspects of a Jedi are primarily what it means to be a one, and that the magical/martial aspects are secondary at best.

Finally, there is the fact that people tend to be thinking of the EU which is full of Force wank not shown in the films. That is honestly one of the big turn offs of the modern EU for me, and one of the reasons I've generally ignored it. Jedi are special and tend to possess abilities and augmented attributes beyond your average person, but they're not comic book super heroes.

To add to that, you fight like you train. For what ever reason, Jedi are trained with a few standard moves, in the movie, so in stressful moments and what not, you fall back onto training and do a force jump, or general force push, not a snap a small bone in his head killing him instantly which you've never done before this moment-maneuver.

Keep in mind also that things like Force-choking and Force-neck-snapping are considered feats of a Dark nature and Jedi tend to avoid such techniques (the philosophical hangups thing)

Bullshit. Bending a piece of metal and breaking a neck are the exact same thing as far as using the Force.

We've been over this. The Force is a gun. If a cop uses it for cop stuff it is good. If a robber uses it or robber stuff, it is bad.

The movies really don't make it clear either way
I tend to agree with you on this
But the Jedi totally get hung up over specific techniques (there's shittons of it in the EU fluff about the saber forms-eg Obi-Wan cutting Maul in half was apparently a massive faux pas)

Obviously the Force just enhances feelings and emotions in the individual. If you use a Force choke with malice and anger, it is going to enhance those feelings, but when you use it, as Luke did against body guards of a galactic crime lord in a "back the fuck up off me son" i.e. cool kinda way, it isn't going to have those same negative effects.

I think it was the war that was looming in the near future that caused the upset in the force. It was in AoTC where Yoda said something like "Our ability to perceive the force has been diminished" at which point things were going to come to blows between the republic and the trade federation and there was basically nothing anyone could do to prevent this. In that sense it was all Palpatine's doing, but he did not himself directly affect the force in anyway. He was probably well aware of the effects caused by galactic war both disrupting the Jedi from sensing the future and how it would level the political field for him to stroll into power. The big thing is, his plan did not hinge on some mystical vision of the future and even if he was also prevented from predicting the future by the galactic upheaval, it didn't really matter to him. His plan was in place and the shroud acted as a convenient smoke screen till it was time for him to get rid of the Jedi and seize power.

If I'm going to speculate further, this is an example of Palpy playing the Jedi over reliance on the force against them. If the actions of the Jedi order as a whole are directed just by future visions, it makes them pretty much blind if those visions are taken away or reduced to the level of a guy bumping into furniture in a dark room. The effect would be greatly reduced by having a closer contact to what is happening around you and a better grasp of the political arena that is affecting the whole of the republic.

-Gunhead

Havok wrote:Bullshit. Bending a piece of metal and breaking a neck are the exact same thing as far as using the Force.

We've been over this. The Force is a gun. If a cop uses it for cop stuff it is good. If a robber uses it or robber stuff, it is bad.

I agree in principle and disagree in practice. We see Jedi do amazing feats instantly and amazing feats with massive concentration. Jedi don't seem to need a 6 second cast time to do a force push, but do seem to need some time to focus and lift/levitate shit. They don't seem to need prep time to use the Force to jump really high, but need some time to rip pillars out of walls. It seems to me, and so my personal speculation, that the Jedi do practice certain 'moves' they are more than likely to need/use during their service. An immediate action drill, if you will. Kind of practicing certain sword fighting techniques or defenses, likely to be needed. It is not that they can't snap you're ear drum if they want, but in the heat of t he moment, with stress, and with the fog of war, if you practice A a lot, it can be used pretty easily because you've practiced it. If you try B, that's fine, but it won't be as quick or easy in that instance because you don't practice it.

Dogma is going to play a huge role in how they approach using the force in various ways. The Prequels were rife with examples of Jedi being dogmatic, inflexible, and even arrogant, and it on more than one occasion lead to them fucking up. Obi Wan incapable of taking down Jango, Sidious totally outmanuvering them, how often events took them by surprise (The Trade fed in TPM, the Separatists/Clone Wars, etc.) And perhaps most importantly, the Jedi Order's utter failure in dealing with Anakin properly (Anakin was clearly a special case who needed special handling, yet the Jedi platitudes they kept dumping on him utterly failed to address his problems. Especially givne that whole 'Chosen One' angle. Which gave palpy yet another angle to manipulate to his advantage, it turns out.)

The Prequel Jedi Order was pretty much an example of trying to force people to adapt to your ideas, rather than adapting your ideas to people, and it was one of the key reasons that lead to their downfall. And it will doubtless affect how they approach utilizing the force - both in terms of training, ethics, and so on. Actions they view as 'evil' probably will be discouraged

There may even be a 'self fufilling prophecy' effect in play - if emotions affect Force manipulation in some way (like we know) coupled with alot of Yoda's teaching of Luke in TESB ('size matters not') widespread, sustained belief may make certain consequences more predictable. That is, if a bunch of Jedi are taught to believe Force choking is inherently evil and will lead you to the dark side and all the consequences therein, it quite probably will do so even if an individual thinks otherwise. There's definitely an element of 'subjective' to how the Force works and how its employed that simply cannot be discounted.

As far as the whole 'shroud of the darkside' thing, we don't really know enough to decide what caused it or why. Some say Palpy caused it somehow (either he's that powerful, or he manipulated the situation in some way or brought somethign to bear to cause that effect. That much was at least implied in the ROTJ novelization, I think - but it also implied Palpy was the source of it.) or it was some sort of 'will of the force' thing, as if the Force were some sentient, quasi-divine entity (The whole 'chosen one' angle.) or it could be that 'self fufilling prophecy' thing (cause and effect in some way, without any mystical crap involved.) There's evidence for all those possibilities, and they may not even be mutally exclusive either.

That's my two cents on it, anyhow.

"Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack." ~ Yoda. Force crushing someone's skull or whatever other sneaky lethal trick doesn't really fit with that idea. It seems like the Jedi looked at any sort of lethal use of the Force as a Dark Side thing. Also remember that in Obi vs. Jango, Obi was supposed to capture the guy and bring him in for questioning, so he couldn't really open up on him with lethal attacks and expect to accomplish his capture mission. Jango, of course, was under no such restrictions, and he certainly fought that way, making the fight seem like Obi was weak. We saw what happened to Jango vs. a Jedi who *was* going for the kill; he didn't last long.

And yet Luke force choked a Gammorean guard, sure not to death, but still choked the shit out of him.

Part of the point of Return of the Jedi was that Luke had not only grown into a warrior-mystic, he'd outgrown even the teachings of Yoda. Instead of simply killing Vader, he refused to do so based on family affection. That's very wrong in Yoda's worldview, but it works for Luke where killing Vader would have been a disastrous failure and (probably) exactly what Palpatine wanted.

One of the things that Luke may have realized as he achieved that personal growth is that sometimes, you have to Force-choke a giant pig-man a bit for the greater good. Compare this to Vader; Vader uses the Force choke out of personal spite and anger- he's punishing people for insulting him or failing him. Luke uses it, but he uses it only to get the guard out of his way so he can continue with his mission, then he lets the guard go.

The difference in mindset can matter here. But that's something Yoda would never realize, because for Yoda the world is very black and white.