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Hey all this is my first post in this forum so please be nice

I think that Darth Sidious is not a true Sith Lord. This is because I feel he doesn't represent Darth Banes ideals of what a Sith Lord.

This is why.

First, The Rule of Two was set to make sure that each apprentice is stronger then the master by having the apprentice defeat the master in a one on one battle and this is how the apprentice becomes a Master, however Darth Sidious doesn't do this he kills his master in his sleep so that means he never defeated his master and never became a true master.

Second, Masters are supposed to train their apprentices to one day take over by killing them however Darth Sidious used his apprentices and during the movies it seemed he never really cared. The fact that him and Vader lived side by side for many years with out a challenge is proof.

I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks.

Welcome to SDN, Darth Sciguy! You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy friendly place so long as you think a bit.

Sidious broke a few of the rules regarding the True Sith coda when Darth Maul died. His apprentice, groomed for years, dead at the hands of a Jedi. This no doubt threw a wrench into his plans, but I highly doubt Darth Tyranus just became Sidious' right hand overnight. He was groomed into it, and eventually went 'sith-like', as I guess we'd describe the situation. It's not an ideal solution but for Sidious, it gives him a well-trained apprentice for whom he can sacrifice while grooming the one he really wants, Skywalker.

This reliance upon Jedi to complete his overall goals does tend to break the traditional Rule of Two, but then again the entire goal was to go into hiding to avoid detection and enter a position where destruction of the Jedi was possible. In that regard, the spirit of the rule was maintained, even if it became a little grey as to whether the exact rules were being followed. The apprentices were less likely to overthrow Sidious because they were ex-Jedi, and Jedi are trained to listen and honor their masters, never betray them. This lets Sidious groom the apprentice he wants with less to fear that the apprentice will turn on him at an inopportune time.

As to whether it was fair to kill his master in his sleep, remember that the spirit of the Sith is that you should be ever watchful of your apprentice, lest they try and kill you. The Master knows that his apprentice will try, time and again, to kill him. Sidious doing it in his sleep was just Sidious' way, as a master manipulator. Whether or not we would consider that in the spirit of the Sith is open for debate, as sometimes the idea of the Sith being honorable gets in the way of realizing that they are, in fact, evil. If both are attacked and the Master winds up dangling from the edge of a cliff, the apprentice must decide if they want to help the Master and gain more knowledge and power... or just slice the Master's hands off to let him fall to his death. There is no honor, only a desire for power.

Welcome to SD.Net Darth Sciguy, first off I think your misunderstanding the rule of two and it's purpose and second what it means to be Sith.

First off the rule of two was established because anything more than two Sith would inevitably fight. There is room for one Master and one Apprentice, the Master trains the apprentice to take surpass them. But killing the Master is only a side effect of the Sith teaching, after all everyone gets old, the purpose of the basic Master/Apprentice relationship is for the Apprentice to become the Master and thus increase the strength of the Sith.

Second, being Sith is two things, first a set of teaching established by a race (called the Sith) who by the time of Episode 1 have been dead for a few thousand years. To be Sith you can literally be of the Sith race or follow Sith teachings which while necessarily Dark side they are very much geared towards those with a dark bent. Might makes right, gathering power for it's own sake, the weak exist to serve the strong. However the mass sacrifices, rampant torture, and general abuse of the population is not formally established just a side effect of Sith beliefs that the strong get to do what they like as that bit about the strong looking after the weak is missing from their believes.

Several things:

First, while it is true that Palpatine is said to have killed Plagueis in his sleep from a films-only perspective, in the EU the situation is now a bit different. Even though James Luceno was allegedly told not to change this, he basically went ahead and changed it anyway. In the EU's version of events Plagueis is attacked after passing out but wakes up due to the attack.

Second, we should differentiate between the Sith race and what it means to be a "Sith" during the era of the films. Though many of the Sith race were Force-sensitive individuals, being a "Sith Lord" and being a member of a specific race are not the same thing. To be considered a "Sith Lord" two things are generally required: commitment to the dark side of the Force and inheritance of Sith traditions and lineage ( in other words, being officially dubbed a Sith by a preexisting Sith ).

Welcome to the forum Darth Sciguy.

I'd suggest reading the Darth Plagueus novelisation for more information.

Sidious is certainly not the first Sith Lord to break away from the Rule of Two. Plagueus's own master had another apprentice who he kept in reserve. It's also strongly implied in the Bane trilogy that he Force Possessed his own apprentice.

Palpatine lived side by side with Vader because Vader was physically and emotionally stunted. Yet Vader did challenge him in subtle ways such as having his own apprentice, Starkiller, and later trying to get Luke Skywalker to join forces with him against Palpatine.

For Palpatine it was easy to keep Vader as his pet attack dog while he waited for a more worthy apprentice, however Palpatine had set aside the Rule of Two and decided to complete Plagueus's work and gain immortality.

Hey may not have acted like a true, dyed in the black Sith, but he did what was right by him and his motivations. He still accomplished the goal of purging most of the Jedi from the galaxy, and I think that is pretty "Sith".

If you want to be really anal about it there hasn't been a single true Sith Lord at least since the Sith Empire from SW:TOR fell as last of the "pureblood siths" died with it probably not even after the Great Hyperspace war as the Sith Pureblood race in TOR is actually a human/sith hybrid with enough Sith DNA to have the apprence similar to a pureblooded Sith.

that said, deception and bending the rules in very much in character for the Sith Order and it's doesn't seem odd that even banate Sith Lords would bend the rule of two to serve their needs.

Darth Sciguy wrote:I've been thinking about this for awhile now and I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks.

Bane's rules never said a Sith couldn't have pawns. Furthermore, Bane and his own apprentice lived as master and apprentice for long enough for Bane himself to get concerned that his apprentice would never make the challenge. The rule of two is a guideline for the Sith, and when Bane made it, he did so knowing there would be risks, knowing that there would be future Sith that may bend or break the rules.

But then, if Sideous' master was complacent enough that he didn't sense his own apprentice's plans to kill him, wouldn't this imply that Plagueus himself had grown weak? It was never a rule, IIRC, that they must face each other in combat, only that over time the apprentice must overcome the master. And we know that there is more to the Sith than just combat.

Oh, and then there's just the chance that Sideous lied about the whole "in his sleep" thing.

Lord Pounder wrote:It's also strongly implied in the Bane trilogy that he Force Possessed his own apprentice.

Though I had hoped for that result, the above is not accurate. The situation in the text is arguably ambiguous ( there appear to be "clues" pointing to either alternative ), but the author clarified that Bane's attempt to transfer into Zannah failed. What resulted was not Bane in Zannah's body, it was Zannah with some trace of Bane imprinted onto her.

Darth Sciguy wrote: I think that Darth Sidious is not a true Sith Lord. This is because I feel he doesn't represent Darth Banes ideals of what a Sith Lord.

By this logic Bane was not a true Sith Lord either as he didn't adhere to exactly how the Sith were before.

First, The Rule of Two was set to make sure that each apprentice is stronger then the master by having the apprentice defeat the master in a one on one battle and this is how the apprentice becomes a Master, however Darth Sidious doesn't do this he kills his master in his sleep so that means he never defeated his master and never became a true master.

Here is your first problem. This is not why the ROT was established. It was instituted so that power wasn't scattered among too many and diluted and so that the wide spread fighting that kept popping up among rival Sith, which kept them from advancing their causes, would stop. That the apprentice must someday replace the master is a necessary byproduct of the idea of this rule. There is nothing specifically that says they must be more powerful however, and in fact that would be a detrimental aspect of the rule as you take a dangerous chance of never finding someone more powerful than you, the current Sith Lord, may be. There is also nothing that says they, the apprentices, must kill the masters to ascend. Simple old age and regular death is more than likely the norm. The idea is that the knowledge of the Sith Lords must be passed on. That can be done by those less powerful than others quite adequately. As the old adage goes, those that can't do, teach.

Second, Masters are supposed to train their apprentices to one day take over by killing them however Darth Sidious used his apprentices and during the movies it seemed he never really cared. The fact that him and Vader lived side by side for many years with out a challenge is proof.

You aren't paying attention to the movies and you are making a giant 30 year assumption as well.

Sidious clearly has an emotional attachment to Anakin and more than likely Maul. I doubt there was one with Dooku, who I am assuming you are mostly basing your assumption off of, but that can easily be explained by the way they came together and their individual goals.

The idea that Vader never challenged Palpatine is pretty silly. The nature of Anakin, even when he was still a well adjusted kid, was one of daring and always seeking out something bigger and better for himself.

well I think our friend here has fallen into the trap of thinking Sith just as mindless brutes, the Sith philosophy is all about gaining power however it doesn't mean you must gain this power thru physical combat and when the apprentice's power grows greater or as strong as the master the apprentice becomes a master himself(or herself), this generally involves the death of the old master but that's not needed.

Now if the apprentice is able to trick the master to lower his guard around him/her long enough to betray the master and live to tell the tale this proves the apprentice is powerfull enough to become a master. There's no ceremonial one-on-one duel that needs to be done to prove the apprentice is ready just something that proves the apprentice has outgrown the master.

As for Darth Vader you got to remember while daring and somewhat arrogant even as a Jedi Anakin wasn't a total moron and the end result of the Mustafar duel must have been a major wake up call, why Vader doesn't challenge Sidious to a duel, because he knows he's gonna loose and die, how ever that doesn't stop him from trying to best Sidious in other ways (say for example by using Starkiller).

I find the idea that Star Wars level technology cannot insulate electronics against electricity offensive and ludicrous, so the whole "OMG scary Force lightning!!!" doesn't hold water for me when it comes to Vader Vs Sidious.

Maybe it's not normal electricity?

IIRC force lighting, in addition to being quite powerful electrically, also has some sort of life-draining effect.

Of course, it's also possible that the electrical insulation on Vader's suit had failed due to combat damage. Didn't he get a hand or two chopped off during that battle?

Yeah, he lost a hand. I don't know for sure if that (and the shoulder blow) would have made any electrical insulation weaker though.

I did a little thread on Force lightning. (based on the movies only) My conclusion is that it is a torture device and doesn't kill even after prolonged exposure at very powerful levels.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=122187

I always felt that Vader/Anakin knew that his destiny was fulfilled and his death was now due as penance for what he did as Vader. He seemed like he had just given up on his life as his hatred could no longer sustain him now that he was redeemed in his son's eyes and it didn't really have that much to do with his actual injuries, which are actually quite negligible and could certainly have been healed/fixed. I felt this even more so after how they handled Padme's death in ROTS.

The movies seem to indicate that Force lightning is potentially lethal.

"Now, young Skywalker... you will die."

Yeah, and like I said in that link, after absorbing the most on screen FL, he drags Darth Vader's heavy ass to a shuttle and then calmly pilots it away, has a bonfire and then goes to a party. Oh the lethality.

Havok wrote:Yeah, and like I said in that link, after absorbing the most on screen FL, he drags Darth Vader's heavy ass to a shuttle and then calmly pilots it away, has a bonfire and then goes to a party. Oh the lethality.

I'm still reading/digesting your link, but given the dialogue the obvious answer seems to be that Palpatine was planning to turn up the voltage at that point.

I mean, not that dialogue is gospel or anything, but presumably Palpatine of all people would know how lethal Force lightning can be. And it certainly doesn't look like he's about to whip out a lightsaber and finish Luke off by hand or something.

Havok wrote:Yeah, and like I said in that link, after absorbing the most on screen FL, he drags Darth Vader's heavy ass to a shuttle and then calmly pilots it away, has a bonfire and then goes to a party. Oh the lethality.

Because Vader intervened before Palpatine killed him, the evidence you would need for "Force lightning is never lethal" just isn't there.

The EU says outright that Force lightning can kill ( and I'm referring to novels, though video games have often demonstrated the same result ), but that's why you excluded the EU, isn't it?

Arawn Fenn wrote:The EU says outright that Force lightning can kill ( and I'm referring to novels, though video games have often demonstrated this ), but that's why you excluded the EU, isn't it?

To be fair, Havok has made it pretty clear he hates the EU and tries to ignore it as much as possible.

Havok wrote:I find the idea that Star Wars level technology cannot insulate electronics against electricity offensive and ludicrous, so the whole "OMG scary Force lightning!!!" doesn't hold water for me when it comes to Vader Vs Sidious.

well the post-ROTS novel seems to suggest it's not so much that they don't have the tech to insulate against electricity but rather that Vader's suit was so badly made that it doesn't have the propper insulation.

Lord Revan wrote:

Havok wrote:I find the idea that Star Wars level technology cannot insulate electronics against electricity offensive and ludicrous, so the whole "OMG scary Force lightning!!!" doesn't hold water for me when it comes to Vader Vs Sidious.

well the post-ROTS novel seems to suggest it's not so much that they don't have the tech to insulate against electricity but rather that Vader's suit was so badly made that it doesn't have the propper insulation.

That makes sense for shortly after the events of RoTS, but why would the second most important person in the galaxy stick with a bad suit?

Gandalf wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:

Havok wrote:I find the idea that Star Wars level technology cannot insulate electronics against electricity offensive and ludicrous, so the whole "OMG scary Force lightning!!!" doesn't hold water for me when it comes to Vader Vs Sidious.

well the post-ROTS novel seems to suggest it's not so much that they don't have the tech to insulate against electricity but rather that Vader's suit was so badly made that it doesn't have the propper insulation.

That makes sense for shortly after the events of RoTS, but why would the second most important person in the galaxy stick with a bad suit?

that too is also exaplained, removing Vader fully from the suit even for a short time puts him in mortal danger so redoing the suit is not an option and Vader just has to accept the suit as it is. It's also a major source of pain and anger for Vader which would explain why Sidious wouldn't take the risk.

Do you really think that's an explanation?