Worst Lucas idea in the prequels? I vote Rule of Two

[jollyreaper]

Not the exact same thing but a similar cut, pseudo-Japanese tunic with outer robes. The variation between the humans on Tatooie is within the range one would expect on an early 20th century city street seeing men in suits -- trousers, jacket, shirt. It's the same basic pattern though there will be different colors, some may be more ragged, etc. Ben absolutely does not look out of place in context.

But jump to the prequels and they're all dressing like Ben, all with brown robes.

That might still not seem so out of place if all humans were wearing that sort of thing across the galaxy but most aren't.

If I find a surviving member of a vanquished order who is wearing a red jacket not dissimilar to what everyone else wears, I'm not going to think much of it. If I find out that the official jacket of that order was any kind of red and he's pretty much wearing what is recognizably the uniform of that order, wtf?

I mean the obvious answer is these were just Tatooine robes and Ben got brown for whatever reason. All the rest was just bad calls in the prequel.

[Galvatron]

The ironic thing is that Qui-Gon actually took off his Jedi robes to go traipsing around Mos Espa with Padme and Jar Jar in "disguise."

[Channel72]

The ironic thing is that Qui-Gon actually took off his Jedi robes to go traipsing around Mos Espa with Padme and Jar Jar in "disguise."

I know it's completely subjective - but why do I always get the feeling that the Tatooine spaceport in ANH comes off as this really dangerous, grungy place, whereas Mos Espa in TPM feels more like Disney World trying to "recreate" Tatooine for tourists?

Maybe it's that gritty 70s feel of Mos Eisley or something, compared with hi-res CGI-laden Mos Espa featuring adorable Jawa antics.

[Broken]

Someone with the ROTJ novelization on hand might be able to check, but I seem to recall it mentioning that the black outfit Luke wore was indeed a Jedi uniform that he put on to show he survived the events in Cloud City and emerged stronger and wiser. The robes that Obi-wan wore were just simple, commonplace robes; not out of place in any number of places and worlds. Of course, when they did the prequels some retcons were done to make the Jedi robes a uniform and a symbol of their humility since it remained very similar to common, basic dress on many worlds. And then Luke's black outfit became like Hamlet's black, a color he will wear until his father's legacy is dealt with.

[Havok]

In case you forgot, impulsiveness and impatience are primary Sith virtues.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Oh man... that was funny.

I guess I missed those primary virtues when they were talking about the 1000 years it took them to plan and execute their revenge against the Jedi.

Or like, how we know that Sith apprenticeships take lifetimes.

Missed the point completely. Yeah, it took them 1000 years to execute a grand scheme that condemned over a dozen generations of Sith to impotently sit in the shadows, despite the primary allure of the Dark Side being (you know, according to Yoda in ESB) that it allows access to great power quickly as opposed to the slow and deliberate approach of the Jedi. It's completely against the nature of the Sith, cult of ruthless selfishness they are, to work in utter silence and anonymity just so some shmuck possibly centuries later could reap the rewards and become king of the cosmos. If Palpatine had been born 500 years earlier, there's no way to have him agree with such a scheme without also fundamentally altering the character.

Bad, shoddy and OOC writing is what makes this work and that's what I criticise. Maybe you should try your hand at addressing that.

I'm going to ignore everything you said except one point, because it illustrates my point SO succinctly.

It's completely against the nature of the Sith, cult of ruthless selfishness they are, to work in utter silence and anonymity just so some shmuck possibly centuries later could reap the rewards and become king of the cosmos.

Bull and fucking shit.

THE MOVIES show that this is EXACTLY the nature of the Sith. Unyielding and unparalleled patience. The absolute willingness to pass on knowledge and continue the Sith line at the expense of their own lives. Unquestioned loyalty to their master or apprentice UNLESS the Master is surpassed in knowledge or power or the apprentice can be replaced by someone more powerful. The fact that they are ruthless and selfish practically dictates that they only have a miniscule membership.

AGAIN for the millionth time... it is the EU's job to conform to what the movies show and tell us, not to try to explain something and change it so that someone can write in Darth Jerkoffto to have kewl lightsaber duels.

Yet the EU constantly goes out of it's way to change what the movies tell us and show and that is why your argument is so fundamentally flawed. You are basically saying the equivalent of elaborate fanfiction overrides what Lucas wrote and showed.

[jollyreaper]

Metahive is correct. It may have been depicted in such a fashion on film but it doesn't hold together. For a religion of evil that puts self first, having them also devote their lives to goals that will only be fulfilled after their deaths seems incompatible. Self-sacrifice, be it direct suicide or simply putting aside lne's ambitions, that doesn't seem to track.

Now I can certainly imagine a religion of evil with long-term planning but it would look different than the Sith.

[Havok]

Sorry, but what is shown in the movies proves otherwise and it holds together just fine.

[jollyreaper]

How does patience reconcile with the Sith? Quick and easy makes for seduction. It's about shortcuts.

Please explain how temptation and lust for power and all that which leads to the dark side also leads to Sith lords putting in place a thousand year plan.

It makes sense when talking about a Cthulhu cult where the human members are just servants enacting a cosmic evil's master plan. They're just henchmen.

But what you're talking about are guys going Sith to get power and then delaying gratification because it fits with legendary Sith patience?

I can buy patience for something that pays off in a lifetime. I can see a Sith enacting a Monte Cristo gambit. I can see Palpy dedicating the greater portion of his life to taking over the galaxy. But I can't see Palpy happily saying "yes, it just won't quite be time for the Sith coup to happen. Apprentice, it might even be up to your own apprentice. But one day this will all belong to the Sith! Not that I'll give a damn when I'm dead."

If that tracks for you then good for you, you enjoyed the movies. It doesn't track for me.

[CaptHawkeye]

Except that even after the Sith revealed themselves to the Jedi, they did not reveal themselves to the galaxy for the rest of the war. Motti didn't even believe in the Force much less that Vader was a Sith. No one on the Death Star or Executor talked as if they knew the Emperor was ever a Sith. Only Vader was privy to the facts about the Emperor.

[Ire]

Bull and fucking shit.

THE MOVIES show that this is EXACTLY the nature of the Sith. Unyielding and unparalleled patience. The absolute willingness to pass on knowledge and continue the Sith line at the expense of their own lives. Unquestioned loyalty to their master or apprentice UNLESS the Master is surpassed in knowledge or power or the apprentice can be replaced by someone more powerful. The fact that they are ruthless and selfish practically dictates that they only have a miniscule membership.

AGAIN for the millionth time... it is the EU's job to conform to what the movies show and tell us, not to try to explain something and change it so that someone can write in Darth Jerkoffto to have kewl lightsaber duels.

Yet the EU constantly goes out of it's way to change what the movies tell us and show and that is why your argument is so fundamentally flawed. You are basically saying the equivalent of elaborate fanfiction overrides what Lucas wrote and showed.

Are you frustrated?

[CaptHawkeye]

Are you trolling?

[Galvatron]

Except that even after the Sith revealed themselves to the Jedi, they did not reveal themselves to the galaxy for the rest of the war. Motti didn't even believe in the Force much less that Vader was a Sith. No one on the Death Star or Executor talked as if they knew the Emperor was ever a Sith. Only Vader was privy to the facts about the Emperor.

Well, Motti's "sorceror's ways" remark could be taken one of two ways: either he's being sarcastic and considers Vader to be a charlatan OR he knows that Vader's a Sith (or ex-Jedi) yet he thinks even this mystical Force is a joke next to the awesome power of the Death Star. I lean toward the latter since the whole exchange seems to be a pissing contest about who has the better toy.

[jollyreaper]

It does make one wonder why an imperial officer would be so casual as to taunt Vader. Tarkin was clearly in command with the Death Star and the main villain. By Empire he is clearly THE villain and no one in the fleet is safe.

So, was Palpy busy consolidating his power base during that time? Was there a Night of the Long Knives to make sure that the shared power behind Palpy's faction became more narrow?

It'd be interesting to see how the change to empire worked out. If the Jedi are massacred as evil, it would be inconvenient to have the emperor admit to being one of them. Is he just seen as a scary coot in a robe?

Going back to the skepticism of the imperial officer, maybe telekinetic powers aren't all that special and being able to move a rock with your mind or choke someone doesn't also validate all the additional claims about prophecy and the Force. "yeah, martial arts guy can break a board and my face but I don't buy this chi focusing crap, he just trained real hard." Still, I wouldn't insult Bruce Lee to his face, especially if he had a reputation for not taking that sort of thing well.

[Galvatron]

It does make one wonder why an imperial officer would be so casual as to taunt Vader. Tarkin was clearly in command with the Death Star and the main villain. By Empire he is clearly THE villain and no one in the fleet is safe.

That's the main reason I'd want to flesh out Tarkin in the prequels. I don't think Leia was kidding about him holding Vader's leash. I think Tarkin was originally meant to be perhaps the only man alive that Vader genuinely respected, perhaps as a dark father-figure counterpart to Obi-wan.

[jollyreaper]

I never read it quite like that. Vader to me is an enforcer both in the original version of ANH and the retcons of the second two movies. Bosses and enforcers can sometimes be the same person but not always. The boss has brains and vision and likely some political fitness. The enforcer is there to back up talk with muscle.

To compare to Nazis, Tarkin was a top player like a Goering or Himmler. Because he's a military governor the equivalent position probably is more imperial Chinese. He's a player with a power base and he knows Palpy has to take him seriously. Goering could get away with a hell of a lot and not fear for his own safety. Someone like Ernst Röhm thought he could take Hitler lightly and was mistaken.

Now we never get to see Palpy's inner circle or how his government operates. By Jedi we see Vader is boss and enforcer. The moff on the second Death Star one would think swings as big a stick as Tarkin but is clearly terrified. At this point Palpy seems ro have consolidated like Stalin where none of his top lieutenants feels safe. It makes me wonder how long Tarkin would have lived if he had won at Yavin.

If we borrow from history, Palpy would have gotten old money on his side, industrialists and financiers. Manufacturing an entire war from nothing seems a little too grand even for him but taking advantage of existing tensions? Absolutely. Winning elections legally and being made dictator was borrowed from German history but the way it was depicted in the PT didn't feel right.

[Galvatron]

I guess I just read more into the ANH dialogue than most people do. Everything from the "he is here" to "you, my friend, are all that remains of their religion" implies (to me) that Tarkin and Vader share a mutual respect (for villains, anyway) and have more history than the EU or prequels showed us.

But I admit it's basically my headcanon.

[Ralin]

I guess I just read more into the ANH dialogue than most people do. Everything from the "he is here" to "you, my friend, are all that remains of their religion" implies (to me) that Tarkin and Vader share a mutual respect (for villains, anyway) and have more history than the EU or prequels showed us.

But I admit it's basically my headcanon.

Though they don't contradict it either. I haven't kept up on the EU for awhile, but I don't think there's been all that much written for the period between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, has there?

[The Imperator]

I guess I just read more into the ANH dialogue than most people do. Everything from the "he is here" to "you, my friend, are all that remains of their religion" implies (to me) that Tarkin and Vader share a mutual respect (for villains, anyway) and have more history than the EU or prequels showed us.

But I admit it's basically my headcanon.

Though they don't contradict it either. I haven't kept up on the EU for awhile, but I don't think there's been all that much written for the period between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, has there?

I think there has been a some stuff, but not much stuff that deals with Vader's and Tarkin's characters, other then Rise of Darth Vader, and some bits of tFU I & II novelizations. The rest mainly deals with Han, Lando, or escaping Jedi. Oh, and the book Death Star, but it didn't have much characterization of Tarkin of Vader.

[Tiriol]

I personally agree with Galvatron's take on Tarkin and Vader being as close to friends as possible given the circumstances. Or, at least, they respected each other enough not to go and break each others' toys. Both had some mutual goals, but both also had some agendas that the other one didn't share.

And saying that Vader was "just" enforcer is belittling his role and intelligence. He might have a direct approach to many situations, but that might be him being more of an warrior than a politician. He was very capable of devious and calculating planning and he appeared to have an astute understanding of people. He did, after all, warn Tarkin that Leia would never betray the Rebellion, at least consciously.

[Havok]

I never thought there was a different way to view Vader and Tarkin's relationship other than one of mutual respect and possibly even friendship.

[Daefaron]

Metahive is correct. It may have been depicted in such a fashion on film but it doesn't hold together. For a religion of evil that puts self first, having them also devote their lives to goals that will only be fulfilled after their deaths seems incompatible. Self-sacrifice, be it direct suicide or simply putting aside lne's ambitions, that doesn't seem to track.

Now I can certainly imagine a religion of evil with long-term planning but it would look different than the Sith.

That's assuming all Sith were involved in the plan to wipe out the Jedi with order 66.

Really, it was all Palp's idea *as I know*(and he was more obsessed with himself then the legacy of the sith). Undoubtedly the rest all had their own schemes they saw to completion. Palp's however, involved taking control of the galaxy, making himself immortal, and killing the entire jedi order.

Even then, look at how he used BOTH sides of the conflict to further his goals without either really knowing he was the leader of both.

Again, nothing says all the previous sith were even involved in planning the Jedi's downfall. It may have been a "We'll sit back and wait, do our own plans but the Jedi get left alone until we see a REALLY good chance of taking them all out." Which Palp got.

The majority of dark side force users don't fall under the Sith anyway. Dark jedi for example. Use the dark side a lot, but they aren't sith. They might train under or work for a Sith, but they aren't part of the order.

I think one of the key aspects of the best sith were they were cunning as well as powerful. They knew when to attack, and when to wait and let their foes blunder on. Who knows, maybe some of their plans required them to die.

[jollyreaper]

I said he was just an enforcer in the original take on ANH, before we're told he was a disciple of a Sith Lord.

I think in light of the subsequent two movies, Palpy at the time of ANH is still seen as a political figure only, no knowledge of his Force ability. Vader is seen as a scary enforcer. He holds no military or civil rank, answers only to the throne. Tarkin shows no deference. This is his show.

Given who and what he is, Vader is being underestimated but this is how he would want it.

Now we are all reading our own takes into the existing scenes. For example, nothing is stated for sure about the fleet Vader is using in Empire. I believe the fluff says its a personal battle fleet. I think Executor was only named as his ship in the novelizarion. But I think Vader's job description after ANH is ass-kicker, troubleshooter and the Emperor's personal representation whereever it's needed.

I get the feeling that by the time of Empire and after that political purges are becoming routine, that terror is how things are done.

The Wermacht in the Third Reich was still part of the old military aristocracy while the waffen-ss were part of a separate command structure. Having something like a super-loyal praetorian guard armed with the same kind of weapons as your strogest forces makes sense.

We have little sense of what kind of personality cult Palpy might have constructed around himself but having fleets personally loyal to him makes sense. It's a huge empire and there's no telling what kind of hubris can build in the minds of grand admirals and grand moffs.

[TC Pilot]

Someone with the ROTJ novelization on hand might be able to check, but I seem to recall it mentioning that the black outfit Luke wore was indeed a Jedi uniform that he put on to show he survived the events in Cloud City and emerged stronger and wiser. The robes that Obi-wan wore were just simple, commonplace robes; not out of place in any number of places and worlds. Of course, when they did the prequels some retcons were done to make the Jedi robes a uniform and a symbol of their humility since it remained very similar to common, basic dress on many worlds. And then Luke's black outfit became like Hamlet's black, a color he will wear until his father's legacy is dealt with.

I don't know about the last bit, but Luke's garb in ROTJ is described as "the robe of the Jedi Knight - a cassock, really."

I never thought there was a different way to view Vader and Tarkin's relationship other than one of mutual respect and possibly even friendship.

In the book, Vader does express a certain level of respect for Tarkin, and even Motti. He admits they're talented, full of ambition, and even dangerous, but that they lack the sort of grand scope of a Sith Lord, and considers them, like anyone else in the galaxy, to be beneath him.

[Galvatron]

I don't know about the last bit, but Luke's garb in ROTJ is described as "the robe of the Jedi Knight - a cassock, really."

That's pretty interesting, considering that Luke looks more like Darth Sidious when he first enters Jabba's palace.

[Knife]

Ok, couple quotes from the novel to clear some stuff up

"I tell you, he's gone too far this time," the General was insisting vehemently. "This Sith Lord inflicted on us at the urging of the Emperor will be our undoing. Until the battle station is fully operational, we remain vulnerable.

Tagge objected. "I beg to differ with you, Romodi. I think the construction of this station has more to do with Governor Tarkin's bid for personal power and recognition than with any justifiable military strategy. Within the Senate the rebels will continue to increase their support as long-"

The sound of the single doorway sliding aside and the guards snapping to attention cut him off. His head turned as did everyone else's."

"The technical data to which you are obliquely referring, "rumbled Darth Vader angrily, "will soon be back in our hands. If-"

Tarkin shook the Dark Lord off, something no one else at the table would have dared to do....

"Enough of this," Tarkin snapped, distressed. "Vader, release him. This bickering among ourselves is pointless."

Vader shrugged as if it were of no consequence. Tagge slumped in his seat, rubbing his throat, his war gaze never leaving the dark giant.

"Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the rebel fortress by the time this station is certified operational," Tarkin declared. "That known, we will proceed to it and destroy it utterly, crushing this pathetic rebellion in one swift stroke."

"As the Emperor wills it," Vader added, not without sarcasm, "so shall it be."

If any of the powerful men seated around the table found this disrespectful tone objectionable, a glance at Tagge was sufficient to dissuade them from mentioning it.

Nothing really shows Vader as a pet, nor any great bond between Tarkin and Vader. Of interest is Vader mocking the Emperor's will, and I think it's more than likely Vader saw Tarkin's supposed grab for power with the Death Star as a means to an end. Use Tarkin to up his own power and kill the Emperor so Vader can rule. It was Vader's plan, after all. It's also interesting that he was named a Sith as early as ANH.

The iron main gate of Jabba's palace scraped open harshly, oiled only with sand and time. Standing outside in the dusty gale, staring into the black cavernous entrance way, was Luke Skywalker.

He was clad in the robe of the Jedi Knight-a cassock, really- but bore neither gun nor lightsaber."

Twenty-five feet above him, in the ceiling, he saw the iron grating through which Jabba's repugnant courtiers peered.

The guard beside him suddenly began to scream uncontrollably, as a door in the side of the cave slowly rumbled open. With infinite calm, Luke surveyed his surroundings as he removed his long robe down to his Jedi tunic, to give him more freedom of movement. He backed quickly to the wall and crouched there, watching."

The robe is described as a cassock, and the black tunic and vest were referred to as Jedi tunic. I guess it makes a little sense, under their flowing robes, the PT Jedi did have a tunic thing going. Not sure you could say it's a perfect match though.