... A thought occured to me right after watching ROTJ.

The Jedi Council relunctantly agreed to let Obiwan train Anakin in TPM- but why assign the role of training the alleged Chosen One to someone who had only just become a Jedi Knight himself? It's the equivalent of me just getting my A Level German certificate and then being asked to teach the subject straight away. Why not give the role of training such a potentially powerful Jedi to a Master, like Yoda?

It's not the only mistake the Jedi made with Anakin, but it's the first, and perhaps the most crucial.

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I agree. Prior to TPM, I always assumed Obi-wan either told the other Jedi to fuck off or didn't even consult with them when he decided to train Anakin.

It's been quite a while since I've seen TPM, but as I recall, Quigon Jinn was the one they reluctantly agreed was allowed to train Anakin.

Then he went and got himself killed, and his former padawan offered to do so in his place. That would have been a good time to step in and say someone else should do it, but it wasn't out of the blue.

They first decided not to train Anakin at all, then decided to put the entire decision on hold until after the Naboo crisis, because of Qui-Gon's protests. I think there were still doubts about Anakin, as well as the prophecy, at the end of TPM. And as Grumman said, Obi-Wan himself came forward about wanting to train Anakin.

In the end, it probably wouldn't have mattered. The shroud of the Dark Side was clouding the Jedi's senses, and neither Yoda nor the rest of the Jedi Council predicted Anakin's fall. Obi-Wan probably mentored Anakin the same as any Jedi in good standing with the Council would've, because Obi-Wan was a devoted follower of their ways. Like them, he didn't really believe in Anakin either. The only reason he wanted to train Anakin was out of respect for Qui-Gon's dying wish.

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"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

I think that Jedi Knights are strongly encouraged to mentor Padawans at all times, so they may have seen the Will of the Force in a new Knight and a new student being bound by a common tragedy. I also get the impression that Kenobi was a bit of a toe-the-line prodigy who was extremely popular with the Council.

In the Episode III novel, which is set only 13 years later, Obi-Wan is a peer of Mace Windu and Yoda and Mace Windu considers Kenobi to be a superior duelist. He also killed the shit out of a Sith Lord, making him the only modern Jedi to do so until Anakin himself many years later.

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"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn



My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com

It's certainly the Council's first major mistake. If we're going by the Jedi Order as a whole, then Mistake # 1 goes to Qui-Gon.

Someone (I think it was Stravo) posed an interesting question a few years back: Was Anakin always arrogant or did Qui-Gon plant the seeds?

We can see in TPM that Anakin knows he can do things no other human or child can, even before he learns he's Force Sensitive. The pride is there from the start. So Qui-Gon letting Anakin overhear his arguments with the Council, that Anakin is this powerful Jedi of prophecy, was a serious mistake. It made Anakin believe he was special and exempt from the rules and fueled his pride and arrogance into Episodes II and III.

So, if Anakin hadn't overheard those arguments...well, I don't know how much of a difference it would have made. Again, the arrogance and pride was there from the start and we know Palpatine was telling him what he wanted to hear. But I don't think it would have progressed to where we saw it after the time-skip in AOTC.

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"A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification; he can be destroyed, or locked up. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely... a legend, Mr. Wayne."

-- Ducard, Batman Begins --

That's the impression you get from the films, but if you you feel the need to take the EU into account then you would be surprised to Obi Wan nearly washed out of the Order and into the AgCorps until fate intervened.

Out of curiosity, what would anyone here have done in the Jedi Council's place following the events of the Battle of Naboo?

If Anakin, who has already demosntrated such power and potential at a young age even going so far as to survive and play a major role in a space battle, was denied entry into the order and thus left to his own devices, what guarantee is there that this wouldn't come back to bite them in the ass? With the appearance of Maul it is known that the Sith are active and operating again, Yoda and Windu know this and even with that all in mind Yoda disagrees with the decision to train Anakin.

Would you have just returned Anakin to Tatooine and had someone keep watch over him at all times? Or perhaps just keep him under wraps on Coruscant?

If I was the Council, and I have the knowledge I have now? If I do, buy Shmi, if nothing else, freeing his mom and giving her a better life somewhere away from raping tusken raiders is a good idea. Next, either let Obi Wan train A akin under the suggestion that he be warm to the kid, as being a cold monk isn't going to help someone seperated from everything he's ever known. If not Obi Wan, someone with experience dealing with people who didn't start off from day one as Jedi.

If I'm just some person making the decisions, probably just the last one. You fit the right teacher to the student. And a special case doesn't need someone who was just a student themselves. I don't know the EU that well, but I'm sure there's at least one Jedi knight or master who could teach Anakin well and isn't a novice.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed,or numbered. I am a free man. My life is my own" Number 6
The Prisoner

Obi-Wan would have done all right as a mentor to Anakin, if the Council hadn't been messing up. In the end, what made Anakin snap was the sense that the Council didn't trust him, wouldn't give him responsibility commensurate with his power, wanted him to spy on his friends, and would utterly refuse to help him save the woman he loved.

If the Jedi had a more pro-family policy, half Anakin's problems would have been solved. But by systematically rejecting all love and attachment, they created a huge part of Anakin's life that he could never trust the Jedi with. Which motivated him to break down and turn on them.

That's not to say Obi-Wan would have been the best man to train him, but he would have done a good enough job as long as the Council's policy showed a bit of sensitivity and flexibility.

Obi-Wan was going to train him and that was that. Whether the council allowed it or not was irrelevant. Aside from that, I don't think Obi-Wan wasn't going to let anyone but himself carry out Qui-Gon's wishes.

love and attachment was gave palpatine his main pathway into anakin's loyalty.

The jedi order rejected it for a reason.

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"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Market forces are a good servant but a poor master." - Zaune

And it was clearly their downfall.

Jolee Bindo said that, and I think he was right. Without love, the Jedi are just code following robots, or worse, sociopaths waiting to happen.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed,or numbered. I am a free man. My life is my own" Number 6
The Prisoner

Love and attachment gave someone an opening to gain Anakin's loyalty. It only fell to Palpatine because the Jedi didn't do it first.

On his Episode III thoughts, Mike pointed out a valid observation that the ROTS novelization made. As the oldest living Jedi, Yoda had essentially remade the Jedi Order in his image. He based it, its rules, and non-attachment on the post-Sith War generation that taught him, a generation that was trying to prevent more Jedi from splintering off and falling to the Dark Side.

While their intentions were noble, it was not the right solution and caused serious long-term problems. By the time we get to the PT, their -- and by extensions, Yoda's -- system only worked if a Jedi is trained from birth. But if someone like Anakin comes along...



And as Mike also pointed out in his Episode III thoughts, Anakin is driven by loyalties to people, not ideologies. The Jedi Council was too arrogant, too full of yes men, and too out of touch to realize this.

Only Obi-Wan, from his years of interaction with Anakin, knew it. In the ROTS novelization, he fights on the Council tooth and nail on the plan to use Anakin to spy on Palpatine, knowing its not going to end well. Mace and the other idiots overrule him and well...

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"A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification; he can be destroyed, or locked up. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely... a legend, Mr. Wayne."

-- Ducard, Batman Begins --

As Fax said, certainly free his mother. It's only reasonable.

As for training him, definitely train him. you do NOT want someone with his raw power falling into the hands of a nefarious party. Most of all though, recognise that this is a special case and that the usual rules can't be rigidly applied to Anakin. As for who trains him, Obi-Wan can be the official Master, to honour Qui-Gon's wishes, but I would have other Jedi contribute. Preferably some of the Council. That way, he will build up a major sense of trust and loyalty to the council, so the situation with Windu and Palpatine in ROTS doesn't come up.

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You are standing on a 4.5 billion year old complex, self-sustaining organic spacship, which is orbiting a power source a million times larger than your ship. There are 200 billion other power sources, many of them with ships like yours, in your fleet. There are 40 other fleets in the immediate neighbourhood and your entire neighbourhood is moving at two million miles per hour towards an object 150 million light years away. Welcome to life, it's a lot more exciting when you think on larger scales.

I agree - I think it was a "go along get along" situation. Obi-Wan was going to train him, regardless of the Council's wishes. Since he's otherwise the very model of a good, obedient Jedi, they probably just thought, "What the hell? Go ahead".

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"I prefer my history dead. The dead sort is written in ink, the living in blood."
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I can't help but wonder if Anakin's slide to the dark side would have been hastened if say, Windu had been his master? Imagine that- your master makes it openly known that he doesn't trust you, right from the off...

But anyhew, based on having watched the films recently, it seems like Anakin was doomed from the start- a lot of outside factors- from the failings of the Jedi to Palpatine's coaching- contributed to his downfall. It's difficult to see a point where the poor sod had a chance...

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I think that Anakin probably would've done the best under Qui-Gon, because Qui-Gon was the only example of a Jedi who seemed to trust him and believe in him, without blindly following Yoda's dogma. The way the series is structured seems to be on Qui-Gon's side. The Jedi Council is introduced in TPM as a stagnant and out of touch, while Qui-Gon was the kind and independent maverick. The Jedi screw up and are outmaneuvered by Palpatine in AOTC and ROTS. Obi-Wan admits that he failed Anakin during their duel on Mustafar, and at the end both he and Yoda receive training from the ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn.

Obi-Wan seems to have lightened up a lot by ROTS, forming a more trusting relationship with Anakin. But in AOTC, he's strict, kind of a jerk, and even a hypocrite (because he was a good disciple of the Council's ways). People always point out Anakin being angsty and whiny in AOTC, but during the chase on Coruscant he's the go-getter who keeps a positive attitude while getting things done. Obi-Wan criticizes Anakin for his recklessness, even though Obi-Wan's the one who thought it was a good idea to jump out a skyscraper window (a decision that nearly gets him killed, until Anakin saves him). He admonishes Anakin for losing his lightsaber during the fight as if that could've been helped, but later loses his own lightsaber while fighting Jango Fett. Obi-Wan in AOTC acts just like a lot of stubborn, critical, and close-minded older men that I've seen in real life. One thing that I really liked about the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship was that they were both wrong, and both right, in different ways. Their character flaws fed on each other. Obi-Wan's strict and demeaning mentoring style embittered Anakin, while Anakin lacked the ability to emotionally get over it.

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"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Agreed.

Despite Qui-Gon's flaws and aforementioned mistakes, he still would have been the best candidate to help guide Anakin and help him grow; an atypical Jedi Master for an atypical Padawan. It certainly would have been a more comfortable student-teacher relationship than the one between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

Also, while I doubt Qui-Gon could have fully removed Anakin's pride and arrogance, he could still temper and counter better than Obi-Wan, whose strictness only fueled it. And with Qui-Gon wise to the corruption in the Senate, Palpatine would have had a harder time isolating him.



Considering the hell of the Clone Wars and the two working on a more equal basis, it made sense that the two's rocky relationship would even out -- something that I was glad turned out to be a plot point in Volume Two of Clone Wars.

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"A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification; he can be destroyed, or locked up. But if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely... a legend, Mr. Wayne."

-- Ducard, Batman Begins --

The first mistake was telling Anakin that he was the chosen one. Second is keeping him near courascant. We know that Palpatine went out of his way to befriend him and that as outsiders that palpatine is evil, but how can it be good to put a potential champion of the force and the jedi order where politicians have access to him to push agendas or get on his good side so that when he realizes his potential they can have his endorsement.

I always figured they let Obi Wan train Anakin because he was the first jedi to kill a Sith lord in a long time, and since said Sith Lord already killed Qui-Gon this clearly proved Obi Wan was awesome strong with the force. That in turn would be important dealing with the chosen one. Now why Obi Wan didn't make it his first move to have Anakin's mother freed and shipped to somewhere not slavery I dunno, but I may have been because the entire point of Anakin becoming a jedi was that he HAD to leave those emotions behind him. If he couldn't, then they shouldn't have started training him... circular logic but the Jedi were acting pretty stupidity anyway. Also its not like his mother was in the worst slave conditions ever.

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"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956

At what point in his training was this? If this was shortly before TPM then yeah, it doesn't track (and IMHO provides a good reason to be selective in your choice of EU). If not, there was plenty of time for him to bounce back.

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"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn



My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com

I haven't seen TPM in a while, but at the end isn't Yoda like "Okay you're a knight now, but we're still not sure about training this Anakin kid!" and Obi-Wan goes "I'll do it whether you like it or not, so yeah." They may well have let Obi train him because it was that or have them go off on their own.