If you look at his posts, it's clear that he still views it as a good film, which it pretty clearly is not. Also, this is a logically fallacious argument.

I gather.
But that also has nothing to do with Raynor finding the film imperfect and a lesser entry in the Star Wars saga, unless 'good' is synonymous with 'perfect' {and if I may have the audacity of using your own words:}



What is the objective standard for a 'good film' and where did TPM fail? Is he not entitled to his opinions even if they run contrary to yours?



Elucidate, please.

Yet he doesn't debate on its merits as a film despite the fact most posters here are. He only debates the internal logic of the movie as if it was real life. If he thinks it better than we are giving credit, by all means show us why.

I liked the podrace. It had genuine tension. If it was a short film it would have been well made. In fact it should have been because it wasn't necessary to the overall story.

Most of RLM's criticisms directed at the film are because of its perceived ill-conceived narrative. Raynor has done a more than adequate job in my opinion of rebutting those criticisms. But it's also my belief that other aspects of the film would be hard-pressed to defend: the abundance of wooden dialogue, Jar Jar, the lack of intensity/energy in many scenes, but I'm not sure that was what he sought to defend in the first place.

{As an aside, I usually skip the podrace because I found it boring. The fight with Maul is where it's at.}

Putting aside the debate over whether or not Raynor's a fanwhore for the moment, I have a question: Since it's been mentioned that the 'other side' is unwilling to admit to the strengths of the film... umm, what are the strengths of TPM? Exactly what sets it apart from other films in a positive light?

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

Plot-wise, I personally thought that the film did a pretty good job covering Palpatine's political ascent to the Chancellorship as well as laying the foreground for Anakin's fall {his attachment to those he cares about}.

I have to disagree. Palpable doesn't even show up until halfway through the film, and aside from Queen Ooba-Dooba acting like a tool because a wizard the plot he tells her to, his 'political ascent' happens entirely offscreen, only briefly summarized at the very end of the film.

And, I admit, Annie's attachment to his mommy was done about as well as it could be for a generic mop-top kid. But two things: One, showing a parent-child emotional attachment is one of the easiest things to do in any form of fiction because it's one of the most base and easy-to-relate human instincts. Calling the passable execution of this one of the movie's 'strengths' is setting the bar incredibly low. Two: The impact of this is lessened by the complete bungling of the attachment that occurs in the next movie (which could cover another thirty-page thread with its own problems).

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

Oh wow guys, this is the "debate" now? The thread was nicely dead since Wednesday, and I didn't even care to respond to the latest round of immature BS that you guys put out since it was even more lacking in substance than usual.

I generally like TPM, though I consider it my least favorite SW film. I disliked Jar Jar, and I thought the comedy got out of hand during some parts of the final battle. I felt that Obi-Wan was underused. I also happen to think that grown men who go out of their way for two months pretending not to know why criminals would cover up crimes when they're lacking the legal cover they planned to have are being deliberately dense. SOME fanwhore.

It is so childish that you guys call it "blindly" supporting the movie when I have gone on record multiple times that I have my own problems with the movie. That's the thing with this thread. It's not "TPM fans" vs. "TPM haters." It's people who can look at the movie reasonably, and a handful of obsessive extremists who are trying way too hard to find fault with the movie. Obsessives who can't just accept the fact that people have different opinions, and must justify their subjective dislike for it as something that makes them more logical and superior. Because apparently, they have invested their identity into hating this movie.

After two months, we have people acting like a ground invasion to control a planet's population is absolutely inconceivable, when the first part of the plan was to control the population with a naval blockade. After two months, we had someone claiming that the Trade Fed not wanting to admit crimes without legal loopholes in place was too hard to understand. After two months, some of you are actually acting as if I give a damn about spelling out why the Trade Fed with a trade franchise has a problem with taxes on trade (which would've changed nothing in the movie, since that's MacGuffin minutia that can be covered in a single throwaway line). After two months, this pathetic thread has shifted into some kind of strawman character attack against me. And it's not as if this is even a vigorous thread with numerous participants. For most of this time, it's the same few handful of people carrying on.



The "strengths" of the film are going to be subjective, because what makes a movie good is subjective. If someone thought that Liam Neeson was likable as a strong but soft-spoken hero, or liked the shoot outs and lightsaber fights, that's all they need to say. It's also a lot more honest than pretending that you don't understand things so basic as "blockade = bad" or "don't admit crimes when you don't have legal loopholes" for two whole months.

Why did I even bother making this post? It's been clear to me for a while now that several of you have some odd emotional issues.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Wow, how the "mighty" have fallen. By the way, has the advice I gave you worked out yet?

Let's just cut the BS and list what we ALL agree on. Both "sides." Everyone, including me.

1. Some of you believe that the details of the trade dispute constitute the "overall plot" of the movie. Some of you believe that the Trade Fed with a trade franchise having an issue with taxes on trade requires explanation. This was a major topic of argument rehashed again and again over the course of two months, even after some of you admitted that addressing it with a single line like "We won't release your planet until the taxes are repealed" would've done next to nothing to actually change the movie.

2. Some of you believe that a specific, all-important supply must have been named as being cut off by the blockade, otherwise the blockade did "nothing" to the Naboo. One of you had a belief that hunting wildlife and eating (completely unmentioned) stocks of MREs are valid counters to a naval blockade.

3. Some of you think it was mysterious and "unexplained" why a ground invasion to shut down a planet could be the next step of a plan to shut down a planet with a blockade.

4. Some of you claim not to understand why the Trade Fed would deny they had committed military aggression, when their plan went awry and they lacked the legal loophole that they had planned to have.

5. The above is reasonable to you guys, and part of what you believe to be properly "processing fiction." You believe I'm a moron if I think that's an unusual way to view a movie, and that most people don't care about those things nearly as much as they care about the basic story and action.

6. You claim that I am "blindly" supporting this movie for disputing the above, even though I have said again and again that TPM is my least favorite SW movie.

7. On the other hand, *I* believe that it is extremely odd, unhealthy, and embarassing for adult men to carry on in such a fashion week after week.


That's basically what this entire thread has circled around for two months and nearly thirty pages. It's been said over, and over, and over again. THIS is what you guys want to waste time on? Why don't we just leave it there and let people judge who's "blindly" doing what?

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Do you have anything left except for silly spam? Nope.



More internet tough guy grand standing.



What advice? I stuck to what I said about deleting whatever stupid PMs you send to me without reading them.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Raynor, cupcake, I do believe you are in el-yu-vee love! I could imagine the sparkles in your eyes when this thread first came up, that light fluttering sensation as you saw another opportunity to fulfill that burning desire, urge, that itching addiction for Jar-Jar flavoured mental sparring in the intellectual crucible. I kind of feel dirty posting here, like kicking a dropped quarter over to a heroin junkie even though I know it's only going to go to his next fix, like casually flirting with a socially inept little boy who has a crush on me even though I have no desire to fulfill his fantasy of a sweet yaoi fling. But then again it's just so morbidly entertaining to watch you strain so very hard to explain in a five-paragraph essay in a thread, where you own post-count is nearing if not past the triple digits, that you don't care about this at all and have no interest in posting here.

Your infatuation with this thread, your desperate lust for someone, anyone to draw metaphorical steel (and all the homosexual undertones that come with it) against in your valiant, chivalrous defense of the prequels is just so fucking adorable. I find it difficult to read through everything you post because, like your 'analysis' of the movies, the truth of the matter is between the lines, the real thrust (oh yeah) of your posts invisible to those who merely read through them as if the words alone are what you truly mean. You write paragraphs and paragraphs of words, trying really really hard to explain how you don't at all care about this, and how everyone else is unreasonable, and how your position is unassailable because it's subjective, though everyone else's isn't for the same reasons.

But what I see between the lines, underneath the frothing rage and mask of haughty disdain, is a near sensual whisper, a quiet pleading murmur, "Please... please tear me down. I need the punishment, I burn for it! You are my love, my hope for meaning and validation, rapture and ecstasy given form through the catalyst of debates over sub-mediocre Lucas films. Oh God hit me again! Yes!"

Like I said, you make me feel downright dirty, you naughty little boy.

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

There's no point in even trying to respond to any of this, because you insist that it's all subjective whenever anybody actually challenges you. At this point, all that is left is making fun of you, because there's no point in continuing when you'll just pop in to fart all over the thread. So here's my list:

1. You are incapable of understanding the use of hyperbole to make a point.

2. You respond to hyperbole like you were pretending to be autistic.

3. The excerpts of your rebuttal that I managed to read reminded me, of well, a while back there was a review of a game called FATAL that indulged in the old hyperbole a little, and the makers responded with a psychotically calm "rebuttal", and your response to this is eerily reminding me of that, what with how they focused on talking about how the reviewers were so terrible, just like you've been doing to me, and to Oni, and to literally everyone who disagrees with you, and just like you've been insisting that the Mr. Plinkett character is some sort of literal representation of the people who run RedLetterMedia, and with how psychotically calm they were.

4. You are sexually aroused by ladies mashing cakes around with their bottoms and you pay money for people to do it on webcams.

5. You'll insist that the previous, hyperbolic comment is an example of how sick and mentally unstable I am, and how I'm "obviously working out issues every time I post".

6. You'll continue to send me bizarre and grotesque PMs that indicate you are socially incapable.

7. You'll continue to insist other people are obsessed when you're the one who's kept this thread going. I'm sorry, but you are kind of like an idiot who keeps pressing the same button but your ravings as you do so are still entertaining. But you're too dishonest to engage in even the semblance of conversation with.

But, hey, you ignored every post that talked about other problems with Star Wars Episode 1 The Phantom MenaceTM, so I don't see the point in trying to provoke a different rant out of you.

Man, this is the first time I've really looked at this thread and... Oni seems to be on the money, Jim's posting is maybe the most homoerotic thing I've read on here in some time.

I read the first two oddball sentences of that, muttered "WTF," and stopped reading right there.

You guys are WEIRD. Plain and simple. The fact that you bothered to type out that bizarre, overly long, and ultimately pointless post shows how strange you are. A belief I've already made clear about you guys before.

What did I say again and again, about how this thread demonstrates the redefinition of "normal" by some people? You're displaying some really strange emotional issues right now, not that you're self-aware enough to notice that. Man, how dare that Raynor moderately like a movie!

You don't argue with crazy. I'm done with you tonight. And I probably won't even give a crap to make my next weekly check in. I remember when I came to stardestroyer.net to read some really good political debate, or at least some entertaining scifi discussion. Not wasting time with extremist man-children who pretend not to understand why criminals would want legal loopholes, for two whole months.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Son, coming from someone who has no stake in this thread, I'm telling you, there are pretty clearly some freaky issues you're working out here.

Is there a moderator who could move this thread to ARSE?

"Hyperbole." I've been saying from the start that you guys were desperately making mountains out of mole hills, and whining about minutia nobody cares about.



No, he was quite genuine about that. After I called him out on it, he went back and defended the logic of his unmentioned MRE crap.



If responded point-by-point, with extensive quoting. Not my fault the RLM review was completely lacking in mental competence. Oh yeah, it was "stupid comedy." I'd actually agree that it's nothing but "stupid comedy," and should be treated as nothing better than that.



More like I'll say again that you've ran out of material, and that you've been posting nothing but no-substance spam for a while now.



You are absolutely SHAMELESS. I sent you a couple of e-mails, teasing you to "calm down" and take the theatrics down a notch. That's "bizarre and grotesque" to you now, when you responded with some sex-related insult. This is slander. You are desperate and astoundingly dishonest.



When a grown man continues for two months claiming that criminals not publicly admitting their crimes without legal loopholes is mysterious, yes, he is weird and obsessive.



More like I didn't give a crap about your subjective opinion, or it got lost in the sea of repetitive nonsense that constitutes this entire thread.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

If this is your first time in this thread, do everyone a favor and keep your pointless nonsense to yourself. Really now, I'm "gay." Not your exact word (that was "homoerotic"), but that's the entire substance of your scant two-sentence post.

Calling someone gay without bothering to actually respond to their points. That's pure elementary school garbage right there.

Man am I proud to be a SW fan with you guys around!

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

Dude, like I said, I don't desperately care about which movies you like, even if you do. Frankly, the fact that you're so defensive about being gay is by itself pretty indicative you have a problem.

But yeah, just keep responding to the subjective opinions you don't care about. That will show us all you're the picture of health.

A major element to Raynor's position is just that: You're free to disagree and think what you want of the film and your opinion would be no more or less valid than his, mine, or anyone else's. The underpinning logic to a narrative can be examined objectively, but determining whether or not a film is a good or bad one is ultimately an issue of subjective taste. {Though I agree that it would probably be very hard, if not impossible to call a film a good one if the plot makes absolutely no sense.}



He actually appears pretty early in the film as both Sith {ordering the invasion} and Senator {conversing with the Queen as the Trade Federation disrupts communications}. But even if that were true, it would still be irrelevant. That Palpatine doesn't assume a major role until halfway through the film doesn't mean that the story involving him isn't any good. It's been a while since I've seen A New Hope, but I'm pretty sure Han Solo didn't show up until a third of the way through and he's considered one of its best pieces.



I'm not inclined to parrot arguments from Raynor's document, so I'll simply refer you to that with regards to the logic behind Amidala's acquiescence to Palpatine's advice.



Actually, I'd submit that Palpatine's political ascent is given quite a bit of attention as both Sith and Senator. Sure, we might not see the Rotunda as much as the sands of Tatooine or the plains of Naboo, but per George in the commentary and the Making of Episode I, Palpatine's rise to power is in many ways the critical story element of the entire film.



Maybe, hopefully that won't happen though.

Raynor hon, your meltdown warms my heart, but there's no need to lie. You'll be back, you've got a jonesing for this thread that simply cannot be denied for long. And when you do come back, you'll be just as irrelevant as you are now, as the debate's simply moved past you. You're just amusement at this point, to link back to my earlier analogy, the inexperienced little boy, still uncertain of his own sexuality. You try to prove yourself and earn the love of your infatuation, even though the target of your confused urges has no interest in you other than to toy with your desires, then discard you when you grow tiresome. Trust me, I've seen it happen before, helped re-assemble the fractured pieces of a naive guy or girl's self-esteem after they got played like a toy.

Consider yourself lucky that this is only happening in the context of a forum-argument rather than an actual relationship. Not that I'd have any interest in a relationship with you, I'd feel guilty with even a pity make-out, given your severe attachment issues.

EDIT: Oh dear... so not five seconds after, "You're all insane, I'm done here!"... you continue to post. It's hilarious when my predictions are fulfilled even before I hit the 'submit' button.

---

Gaian Paradigm: Because not all fantasy has to be childish crap.
Ephemeral Pie: Because not all role-playing has to be shallow.
My art: Because not all DA users are talentless emo twits.
"Phant, quit abusing the He-Wench before he turns you into a caged bitch at a Ren Fair and lets the tourists toss half munched turkey legs at your backside." -Mr. Coffee

I just read through this entire thread and I only have one thing to say. Jim, can I buy some pot from you?

Okay, since Jim seems to be so curious about what I think, I've popped open my copy of TPM. I've been watching for maybe 3 minutes, and so far, I'm really not impressed.

Who said anything about anyone being gay except for you? I like how you defend your childish use of gay as an insult.



I'm not mainly concerned with your "subjective" opinions. I've been mostly concerned with the shameless dishonesty of adult men deliberately claiming not to understand very simple things for a few months.



You know what? This is the limit. When the thread degenerates to the point where it's not even about nerd ragers pretending not to understand a simplistic family movie (as pathetic as that already was) anymore, but is now about you, some troll I don't even know, posting what amounts to "ur gay," I'm done. You don't feed the trolls, and you don't argue with crazy.

I am officially walking away from this idiotic thread, filled with Bakustra's internet chest beating, Oni's long and elaborate weirdness, and your kindergarten gay insults. I'm sure you guys will declare "victory," or something. You guys deserve each other.

---

"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims

I'm.... I'm almost positive you did. Hang on, let's go check.



There we are. I didn't use the word gay as an insult, but the fact is that you keep getting so defensive when people point out this weird obsession you've got with Oni. I'm beginning to think you consider gay to be an insult, which as I'm trying to get across, isn't healthy.