New Redletter Media video about Lucas

[Metahive]

If Amidala had presented evidence for the occupation and Valorum hesitated to act or unduly stalled the issue (due to the "bureaucrats" and "lobbyists") and subsequently gotten a vote of no confidence that would have made way more sense and better presented the corruption of the republican government. There, the story practically writes itself.

Also funny is that Amidala whines about commissions taking too much time when electing a new chancellor and then deciding which planetary militia to send to Naboo (since the Republic had no standing army of its own) could have taken even more time and resulted in the election of a chancellor even less amiable to Naboo's cause (Palpatine's nomination came as a "surprise", remember?). But luckily a political body consisting of thousands of members with potentially thousands of diverging interests is miraculously efficient when it comes to electing its head-honcho.

[Darth Tedious]

If Amidala had presented evidence for the occupation and Valorum hesitated to act or unduly stalled the issue (due to the "bureaucrats" and "lobbyists") and subsequently gotten a vote of no confidence that would have made way more sense and better presented the corruption of the republican government. There, the story practically writes itself.

Well yeah, that could work better.

I only pointed out the way it had happened because Channel72 was asking as an apparently honest question.

And again, I never argued that it was well written, just that it was written.

[Knife]

No, you couldn't have a huge Senate investigation, nor could you have lots of info released into the public; or you'd have to severely investigate the Trade Fed, which A) the Trade Fed probably wouldn't accept the deal to invade, and B) might find out about Sidious. Palpatine can't afford either one, so limit the info to just enough to accomplish goal and keep his secret identity, and keep his patsies.

The Trade Fed needs to control info to walk the fine line of legality Sidious is providing, and Sidious has to walk a fine line to get the effect he wants but not so much that every agency in the Republic takes a hard long look at it and figures out there is a man behind the curtain. As long as Sidious is secret he can run interference for the Trade Fed, which he does. 10 years after and a couple Supreme Court cases later the Trade Fed is still just fine and Nute Gunray is a free and prosperous man (in AotC.)

[Metahive]

I'd argue that the TF was just a means to an end for Palpatine and therefore disposable. Who would believe Gunray and Haako if they said that a Sith lord made them do it? Nobody believes Dooku ten years later when he spills the beans either after all.

Of course, if Palpatine had been really the politically savvy mastermind he's often touted to be he would have manipulated the TF without making his involvement obvious to their leadership. Take Iago from Othello for example, all he ever does is gently nudging his victims towards their own doom with an "innocuous" statement here and some planted evidence there. All very subtle and without giving his own motivations away. Why couldn't Palpatine be more like that?

[Knife]

I'd agree that the Trade Fed was an means to an end for Palpy, doesn't mean he wants his patsies to go early and have enough info to incriminate himself; or even the possibility of a connection.

[Jim Raynor]

I'm probably wasting time even going back to answer this guy.

Ask the average person on the street who ANY of the PT "characters" were, and they won't be able to answer you.

That's a PROBLEM.


This whole back and forth is like a giant is/ought fallacy.

Please, people know Natlie Portman played Princess Amidala, complain about Anakin and Jar Jar, and know who Obi-Wan Kenobi is. You're the only one I've ever heard demanding that Bail Organa needed exposition in TPM.

A MacGuffin must matter to the plot, by definition, since it drives things. The characters must care about it, otherwise they'd ignore it too.

I love how you just insist that a MacGuffin or initial reason to fight "must" matter to the plot, as if that's a fact and not just your opinion.

Yes, it'd help a lot. Then we'd actually know what the villains are doing and have an idea on how the situation can be resolved.

Because "they're bullying people until they get their way" couldn't have been easily inferred already.

It's a common technique to show the viewer similarities in another situation to better understand the main story, and it avoids the question of "what's his problem".

When Alderaan seconded the vote of no confidence, we're left wondering why. It seems like he did just because the script demanded it. Why Alderaan? We've heard of them in the OT. That's it, there's no more reason for it.

Were they blockaded at some point too? Were they faced with unfair taxes? Did the government do the unthinkable and ask them to provide evidence for their claims at some point? Did Palpatine manipulate them somehow to play into his scheme?

The fact that you think "why Alderaan" needs explanation at all shows that you're just trying too hard to manufacture problems with the movie. Might as well ask "why Malastare" or "why Kessel" or "why Cato Neimoidia." It's a background detail that was thrown in their for one second.

[Jim Raynor]

Yes, jamming might be a normal military procedure, but RLM wondered why the Trade Federation would jam communications because he'd already seen the movie, and had prior knowledge of Palpatine's overall scheme. If Palpatine's goal was to generate sympathy over the invasion, why try to conceal the invasion? It's a legitimate question.

No it's not. It's a completely stupid question. The answer to "why were they jamming" is "because they were invading." The idea that the Trade Fed only wanted news to get out when they were safe and ready was never called into question.

But whatever - the communication jamming isn't even that important considering we don't know how the whole invasion even benefits the Trade Federation at all. Again, you don't seem to care: for you, it's enough that the Trade Fed was promised "something", and whatever it is, it makes the invasion worthwhile. But I don't like movies where the villains do things for reasons which aren't established clearly.

If a blockade could force the changes they want, then an escalation of force, like a ground invasion, might do that even better. There aren't even any dots to connect here. It's really that simple.

Everyone gets that. What people are complaining about is that this evil galactic corporation is basically the primary antagonist, and yet their motives are entirely opaque.

Make more money.

You can dismiss this as a subjective preference, but you should at least concede the point that the OT was much more explicit. And please don't strawman me with some bullshit counter-point like "the OT never tells us what Darth Vader's social-security number is" or whatever. The fact is, every ON-SCREEN ACTION taken by Vader has an explicit, clear motivation, which is unambiguously established through dialogue.

Give me a break. If you give Vader a pass for being evil for the sake of being evil and just go with what is clearly doing onscreen, I can do the same with the Trade Fed.

I agree - the tax stuff is only background information. The "plot" is basically the invasion. Everything that happens in the movie is oriented around the invasion - an invasion which has no clearly established reason.

Finally you drop this nonsense about how the taxes were "the overall plot." And again, the war is what matters. A story about the American Revolution does not need to elaborate on the details of the taxes. A story about WWI doesn't even have to mention why the Arch Duke was murdered.

If a film has a set-piece with a one-on-one duel, I expect the combatants to have some significant history together. I can't even think of a movie (other than the Star Wars prequels) where this isn't the case.

Then you're not trying very hard. Off the top of my head...

Terminator movies: It's an emotionless robot programmed to kill John/Sarah Conner.
Bourne movies: They're government agents with no backstory, sent to kill Bourne.
Mission Impossible movies: The other guys are um, the bad guys.
Incredible Hulk: Some guy who Banner doesn't even know turns into a mindless rampaging beast, and requires a beatdown.
Fellowship of the Ring: Some big orc who doesn't even talk.
X-Men 1: Ignoring their comic history, Wolverine fights a Sabretooth who doesn't talk and has no apparent history with him.
Casino Royale: Bond chases some parkour athlete around the city. He also fights some generic guy who he doesn't know (but whose wife he secretly screwed) at an airport.

These aren't derided, piece of crap movies. These are successful blockbusters. It happens ALL the time. I've even seen people complaining about how some movies contrive some "personal" reasons for a hero to fight a villain, instead of just letting the hero try to survive, do his job, or do the right thing.

It's all good, there's different ways you can set up a fight scene or confrontation. But the fact that you can't even think of a single movie without personal history between two opposing characters (going so far as to say that "there's always" a personal reason) shows that you are very narrow minded about this.

[Elfdart]

I love how you just insist that a MacGuffin or initial reason to fight "must" matter to the plot, as if that's a fact and not just your opinion.

Funny how Heathcliff's dishonest trolling cockgoblin went to the trouble of Googling about MacGuffins, yet he chooses to ignore what Hitchcock (who made the term popular) said about them:

It might be a Scottish name, taken from a story about two men in a train. One man says "What's that package up there in the baggage rack?", and the other answers "Oh, that's a McGuffin". The first one asks "What's a McGuffin?". "Well", the other man says, "It's an apparatus for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands". The first man says "But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands", and the other one answers "Well, then that's no McGuffin!". So you see, a McGuffin is nothing at all.

Boldface mine.

Here's more:

McGuffin (muh-GUF-in) noun, also MacGuffin

A device that helps propel the plot in a story but is of little importance in itself.

[Coined by film director Alfred Hitchcock (1899-1980).]

A McGuffin could be a person, an object, or an event that characters of a story are interested in but that, intrinsically, is of little concern. For example, in Hitchcock's movie North by Northwest, thugs are on the look out for a character named George Kaplan. Roger Thornhill, an ad executive, gets mistaken for Kaplan and so he is chased instead. Meanwhile Thornhill himself tries to find Kaplan who doesn't even exist.

Like his hero Red Letter Moron, our resident troll is at best severely retarded and at worst a lying shitstain in search of attention.

[Knife]

I'm having problems seeing how 'Taxes' don't fit the description you, yourself, provided Destructionator?

[Gaidin]

A device that helps propel the plot in a story but is of little importance in itself.

A McGuffin could be a person, an object, or an event that characters of a story are interested in but that, intrinsically, is of little concern.

Come on, I got a F in college English class, and I can understand this. The characters must care about the macguffin or it wouldn't propel the plot.... and therefore doesn't fit the definition of macguffin.

It's of little importance because you can swap it out - what it is isn't as important as how the characters feel about it. But, that doesn't mean any throwaway shit fits the definition. The characters must care about it, and they must care so much that it's worth all the shit that happens in the story.


What the hell is wrong with you people?

So they're interested in the taxes, but 'intrinsically', the taxes are of little concern to the overall story. How is it not a macguffin?

[Stofsk]

They're so interested in taxes that nobody on the TF side even uses the word in the entire film.

EDIT Not that I want to get involved in all this, but an example of a macguffin would be the briefcase in 'Ronin' where everyone asks what's in the case and nobody gets told, lots of people die to get it, the heroes get backstabbed by a guy on their team etc. Take away the briefcase and the macguffin could be anything, but it's clear that it is of importance to the characters in the movies. Like Adam is saying, what it is is nowhere near as important as why people in the story give a shit about it, and what it means to them. In TPM the whole 'taxation of trade routes' doesn't even matter to the villains, the heroes, to neutral 3rd party observers - nobody. It's completely superfluous to the plot.

[Aniron]

I am going to go ahead and laugh at you using the script as evidence when things change during shooting. Even if the script and film support both support your arguments, it's idiotic to source it.

[Darth Tedious]

@D13: That's a fucking great theory about the taxes! Fits like a glove.

Just looking at that list you provided, as per the definition of MacGuffin- a couple of those don't seem to be proper ones.

A device that helps propel the plot in a story but is of little importance in itself.

A McGuffin could be a person, an object, or an event that characters of a story are interested in but that, intrinsically, is of little concern.

The more glaring example to me would be the DS plans. They were of critical importance to the plot. The Rebel Scum needed them to blow up the dreaded DEATH STAR. Getting the plans was the only actual step to doing that (they conveniently led the Empire right to their hidden base anyhow).

The Ark became a crucial plot point (but only really because it killed the Nazis and saved Han Solo Harrison Fo Indiana Jones).

The Genesis device was a legit one. It really had fuck all to do with Kirk and Khan's battle, it was just a motivator. It only became a crucial plot point in the next film.

The Grail and the briefcase from Pulp Fiction are total classic examples.

Back to TPM, though I wouldn't personally call it a MacGuffin, the real driving force behind the plot is the invasion itself. The taxes are pretty much background info/history to that.
That's why I personally never really cared that they didn't go into great detail about them, but meh, it's a pretty subjective issue. I wouldn't have minded if they had been explained.

[Elfdart]

If Amidala had presented evidence for the occupation and Valorum hesitated to act or unduly stalled the issue (due to the "bureaucrats" and "lobbyists") and subsequently gotten a vote of no confidence that would have made way more sense and better presented the corruption of the republican government. There, the story practically writes itself.

Qui-Gon Jinn had already told Valorum what had happened, and Valorum still let the TF sandbag the proceedings. He may have been a decent guy but he was weak and bogged down with his own problems -as was spelled out in the movie.

Also funny is that Amidala whines about commissions taking too much time when electing a new chancellor and then deciding which planetary militia to send to Naboo (since the Republic had no standing army of its own) could have taken even more time and resulted in the election of a chancellor even less amiable to Naboo's cause (Palpatine's nomination came as a "surprise", remember?). But luckily a political body consisting of thousands of members with potentially thousands of diverging interests is miraculously efficient when it comes to electing its head-honcho.

She was probably hoping that the threat of action from the central government would be enough to get Gunray to stop. They were about to give up when faced with just two Jedi Knights.

[Elfdart]

And the trainwreck just keeps on giving. I agree with Bakustra, but my view is more of the less I know the better. In the OT Obi-Wan and Yoda both more or less just sage our young hero on his path and Vader is the recurring villain. The whole Jedi / Sith split is not a main focus in any way giving way to valiant rebels fighting against an oppressive regime mixed with a farmboy turns into a hero.
Thinking back I should have listened to that little nagging voice in the back of my head that was whispering "you know it's going to feature the Jedi and the Sith". I really hoped they'd bring something new to the table, some interesting twist, I mean.. anything. Well no chance, everything about the Jedi and the Sith is just as bland and uninteresting as ever. Then again this is pretty much in line with everything I've read about them even before the prequels came out. What makes the prequels even more lame, is how the Jedi are given a opponent which they can mow down in droves without any thought to the whole "Keepers of peace" etc.

You're taking the "keepers of the peace" bit too literally. There's another movie character type described as a "keeper of the peace", the Western Sheriff, and most of them had no problem with shooting bad guys -nor did the audiences watching Westerns.

Then we have a whole galactic civil war we don't get to see.

OH NOES! You don't see the Civil War in Gone With The Wind, or WW2 in Casablanca!

This brings up the notion of the Jedi as military leaders and if you buy in the least bit into Jedi claims of pacifism / peace / yaddayadda the whole idea of them being military leaders is pretty laughable,

Who said the Jedi are pacifists? They carry swords for fuck's sake!

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Qui-Gon Jinn had already told Valorum what had happened, and Valorum still let the TF sandbag the proceedings. He may have been a decent guy but he was weak and bogged down with his own problems -as was spelled out in the movie.

Wait... when did this happen? Oh, right, I don't have the special limited edition Elfdart versions of the film where all this stuff which sounds an awful like like strained inference (read: making shit up) with no actual evidence in the film is explained. My bad, the version I have only has the scenes where Oobadooba calls for the no-confidence vote without a single attempt to present evidence at Palpie's goading, it's missing the scenes where Quiggy tells Valory, or where any character makes mention or inference of Quiggy telling Valory.

Where do you get the limited Elfdart editions of the films anyways? They sound like gold-plated sex compared to the shit that my versions are.

Goddamn Prequationists.

[Panzersharkcat]

Qui-Gon Jinn had already told Valorum what had happened, and Valorum still let the TF sandbag the proceedings. He may have been a decent guy but he was weak and bogged down with his own problems -as was spelled out in the movie.

Wait... when did this happen? Oh, right, I don't have the special limited edition Elfdart versions of the film where all this stuff which sounds an awful like like strained inference (read: making shit up) with no actual evidence in the film is explained. My bad, the version I have only has the scenes where Oobadooba calls for the no-confidence vote without a single attempt to present evidence at Palpie's goading, it's missing the scenes where Quiggy tells Valory, or where any character makes mention or inference of Quiggy telling Valory.

Where do you get the limited Elfdart editions of the films anyways? They sound like gold-plated sex compared to the shit that my versions are.

Goddamn Prequationists.

After they arrived on Coruscant, the two Jedi stayed behind to talk to the Valorum. What do you think they talked about? The weather? The lack of railings everywhere? The goddamn Batman?

[Metahive]

BTW, if you asked me what Macguffin there is in that movie, I'd say the biggest one is the title of emperor.

It's not the title he's after, it's the power it represents. Power and the lust for it represent an overarching theme in Star Wars, it's not a mere device to kick the plot into motion as a McGuffin would do since it arguably provides the main antagonistic force and the main point of conflict in all six movies.

After they arrived on Coruscant, the two Jedi stayed behind to talk to the Valorum. What do you think they talked about? The weather? The lack of railings everywhere? The goddamn Batman?

Who knows? Considering the overall autism and randomness presented by all characters in the PT they might as well have discussed the latest Nabooian queenly fashions or how Jar Jar needs to be immediately be made secretary general of the Coruscant security forces.

Snarking aside, if they told Valorum about what happens it would have been important to show Valorum's response to it just to make it possible to gauge Valorum as a person. As he appears in the movie he's a cipher, a plot device masquerading as a character. Are the accusations of corruption legitimate? Made up? Is he a strong ruler burdened down by a corrupt system or an opportunistic weakling? I'd have preferred answer to those question but the time to show those had to be used for better things, like showing Jar Jar stepping into shit and fart jokes.

[Panzersharkcat]

After they arrived on Coruscant, the two Jedi stayed behind to talk to the Valorum. What do you think they talked about? The weather? The lack of railings everywhere? The goddamn Batman?

Who knows? Considering the overall autism and randomness presented by all characters in the PT they might as well have discussed the latest Nabooian queenly fashions or how Jar Jar needs to be immediately be made secretary general of the Coruscant security forces.

Snarking aside, if they told Valorum about what happens it would have been important to show Valorum's response to it just to make it possible to gauge Valorum as a person. As he appears in the movie he's a cipher, a plot device masquerading as a character. Are the accusations of corruption legitimate? Made up? Is he a strong ruler burdened down by a corrupt system or an opportunistic weakling? I'd have preferred answer to those question but the time to show those had to be used for better things, like showing Jar Jar stepping into shit and fart jokes.

That I can agree with. It would have been nice to see that instead of fart jokes and more Jar-Jar.

[Elfdart]

Christ, did you even read anything you linked to?

First off, my link went on to say how Hitchcock was underselling it. That's what the excerpts are about. We already know you're a lying sack of shit,

We do?

Second, did you read your own definition?

A device that helps propel the plot in a story but is of little importance in itself.

A McGuffin could be a person, an object, or an event that characters of a story are interested in but that, intrinsically, is of little concern.

Yes, and unlike you I can understand it. You, on the other hand, are baffled by the plot of a Star Wars movie!

Come on, I got a F in college English class,

You don't say.

and I can understand this.

You have a strange way of showing it.

The characters must care about the macguffin or it wouldn't propel the plot.... and therefore doesn't fit the definition of macguffin.

Nute Gunray and his flunkies care about the tax dispute. Queen Amidala and her supporters also care about it, since Gunray (egged on by Sidious) is using it as an excuse to attack her planet. Valorum cares, otherwise he wouldn't have sent two Jedi to try to settle the matter. And of course Palpatine cares because he's the one who went to such great lengths to stir up trouble in the first place, and he mentions it in his play for sympathy in front of the Senate that passed the tax in the first place.

You're right, none of the characters care, aside from Gunray, Sidious, Amidala, Valorum, Qui-Gon Jinn and others. You are one dumb twat.

It's of little importance because you can swap it out - what it is isn't as important as how the characters feel about it. But, that doesn't mean any throwaway shit fits the definition. The characters must care about it, and they must care so much that it's worth all the shit that happens in the story.

Different characters will have different attitudes toward a MacGuffin, just as they would toward other characters or events or anything else. Jar Jar Binks probably doesn't care about the taxes. Ditto for Anakin and Shmi.

In the WW2 spy thriller Eye of the Needle, a Nazi spy obtains photos of fake Allied aircraft and this knowledge might screw up the impending D-Day invasion, so he ruthlessly stabs anyone who gets in his way as he tries to smuggle the film back to Germany. Now the spy cares about the film he's carrying. So do the other Nazi spies who help him. So does British Intelligence. Some of his victims and their friends/families/neighbors don't know, let alone care about the film. All they know is that he's running around stabbing people and most don't even know he's an enemy spy. Even the other main character, the unhappily married woman he starts boinking, does not care about the film he's carrying. Now anyone watching the movie can see that the spy's roll of film is the MacGuffin of that movie, provided they know or care what a MacGuffin is. At least anyone who isn't a complete imbecile like yourself and others who for some reason insist on watching movies with your heads up Heathcliff's ass.

What the hell is wrong with you people?

We're just capable of thinking for ourselves rather than having Red Letter Retard do it for us.

By the way, you stupid fanboy, you just proved you're a liar.

Really?

[Panzersharkcat]

Shit, I just realized I accidentally wrote "the Valorum." Forgive me, Grammar-Fuehrer! But yeah, so this post doesn't become too spammy, the only thing I'm arguing against is RLM's idiotic review. I have no real dispute with you otherwise if you think TPM was the worst of the Star Wars movies.

[Panzersharkcat]

I'm willing to accept that he has some fair points, a stopped clock being right twice a day and all that.

[Darth Tedious]

Awfully convenient ascention guns those guys have, but hell, Luke had that convenient grappling hook too.

Yeah seriously, what the fuck were the odds that Luke would happen to mug the one and only Stormtrooper in the entire fucking Empire who happened to have a grappling hook and a comlink on his belt instead of the standard-issue O2 canister.

You can't plan that shit.


EDIT: Not that it has any relevance to anything- I how Luke chose to keep the Stormtrooper belt when he changed back into his street clothes. Makes me want to wear one at random when I go shopping, not that anyone would get the reference.

PS. - Where the fuck did Luke and Han stash their clothes while they were in disguise??? Slight plothole, anyone?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

It's really amusing when you look at it through outside sources:



The makers of Rifftrax don't have any vested interest in denigrating Lucas. They're not rabid fanboys with a vendetta. All they do is make funny commentary tracks to sell. Yet even in the comedy, what do they hit on the most? The flat acting, the lack of characterization, motivation, and plot.

But I'm sure it's just because Lucas is such an incredible movie-making and storytelling genius that a vast majority of people simply can't comprehend the sheer subtlety in his great works except for those elite few.

[Kane Starkiller]

OH NOES! You don't see the Civil War in Gone With The Wind, or WW2 in Casablanca!

Those movies never intended to show them. They were about little people swept in a larger event. TPM is about Yoda, the leader of Jedi, Palpatine a senator trying to get to the position of chancellor, Amidala the queen of a planet being invaded, Nute Gunray the leader of the invading force etc. The movie intentionally brings us to backroom meetings where invasions and votes of no confidence are discussed. The movies WANTS to be about large events but then fails miserably to explain those events it showed. Don't try to bullshit your way out of it by pretending it's Casablanca set in space. Don't remember the scene where Bogart is standing over Hitler deciding whether to kill him or not.

Different characters will have different attitudes toward a MacGuffin, just as they would toward other characters or events or anything else. Jar Jar Binks probably doesn't care about the taxes. Ditto for Anakin and Shmi.

In the WW2 spy thriller Eye of the Needle, a Nazi spy obtains photos of fake Allied aircraft and this knowledge might screw up the impending D-Day invasion, so he ruthlessly stabs anyone who gets in his way as he tries to smuggle the film back to Germany. Now the spy cares about the film he's carrying. So do the other Nazi spies who help him. So does British Intelligence. Some of his victims and their friends/families/neighbors don't know, let alone care about the film. All they know is that he's running around stabbing people and most don't even know he's an enemy spy. Even the other main character, the unhappily married woman he starts boinking, does not care about the film he's carrying. Now anyone watching the movie can see that the spy's roll of film is the MacGuffin of that movie, provided they know or care what a MacGuffin is. At least anyone who isn't a complete imbecile like yourself and others who for some reason insist on watching movies with your heads up Heathcliff's ass.

Except of course the concept of taxation is not an ITEM you can put in a bag and then make it clear to the audience there is something VALUABLE inside.
We understand that if there is something VALUABLE inside a bag if you are in physical possession of the bag you've won. Therefore the drama in the film can easily be built around chasing that bag without knowing what's inside.
This doesn't apply to TPM since you can't simply put taxation in a bag. Taxation is a complex concept and it involves entire nations. Therefore you need to explain who is being taxed and by whom and how exactly a certain action will help you.