So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by NecronLord »

Havok wrote:The EU is not to be believed. Kinda my point.

Again... the movies show this to be false. Vader is respected by every officer we see except one in the movies.
Admiral Ozzel shows no respect for his intuition. Piett and Needa are plainly terrified of him. If your definition of respect is 'doesn't talk back' that works. He has a working relationship with Tarkin, sure, but most of the named officers don't respect him nearly as much as they fear him.

As for his executing officers being overblown; he is only just called off in ANH, does two in in ESB, and in one deleted scene for RotJ was doing another in until he stated that he was acting on the Emperor's orders. If I were writing an EU story featuring Vader, I'd probably have him kill an Imperial officer at some point; it is a consistent pattern of behavior.
It is contradicted by the movies, except for one highly unique
That scene is neither unique, nor highly unique, it demonstrates Vader being quite prepared to murder an imperial admiral. There is another scene where he murders an imperial admiral, and one where an Imperial admiral expects to be murdered by him.
Does he punish failure? Yes, but this is an Empire run by the Sith who get their power from anger, fear and aggression.
Failure? How did Captain Needa fail to find the Falcon? Everyone but Fett thought it had jumped into hyperspace!

And Palpatine successfully distances himself from that in public opinion. Vader does not.
And as we all agree on, Vader is an extension of the Emperor in the Empire's eyes. So why doesn't whatever Vader does garner revolt against the Emperor, but automatically garners revolt against Vader in the Emperor's place?
Because the Emperor is astute in managing the many warlords under his command. Vader has shown no desire to involve himself with politics, and thus no skill in controlling it.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Kingmaker »

Really? How exactly does Palpatine come across as charismatic? When he is ordering the destruction of Alderaan? Or the dissolvement of the Senate?
How about the part where he declares himself Emperor of the fucking Galaxy? And everyone goes along with it.
And where does that come from exactly? Why would they all of a sudden not depend of Vader for their status if he declared himself Emperor after Palpatine was dead? Would the Stormtroopers all of a sudden not be loyal to him? Would the officers not follow his commands? Would the Royal Guard not walk at his side? He is THE EMPEROR. Is there some form of democracy that instantly jumps in place because Palpatine dies?
Palpatine has supreme legitimacy as Emperor. His ministers, Grand Admirals, and advisors all derive their legitimacy from him. Moreover, he had the endorsement of the Senate (that he used space magic to get it is irrevelvant here), and of his subordinates, who collectively rely of his patronage. If Vader declares himself Emperor, they all laugh in his face. He does not command the Imperial military, he does not command the Imperial security apparatus, and he does not command the Imperial civil administration. I'm hard-pressed to think of anyone who would support Vader once they were outside of arm's reach. If you want to seize control of a totalitarian bureaucratic state, you need supporters. And nobody likes Vader. Maybe he shouldn't have been such a murderous asshole. Vader after Palpatine is going to be like Beria after Stalin: as soon as people can think of a way to get rid of him, they're going to. Except he doesn't even have Beria's actual status.
People have NO IDEA that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. No one knows who he is.
They know that he's the fucking Emperor of Space. Palpatine is not dependent on Darth Vader to maintain his empire. Having a force-sensitive henchman to serve as inquisitor and general-purpose troubleshooter is useful, but not essential. Meanwhile, nobody is going to listen to Darth Vader unless he's standing right over, breathing menacingly. Because he's not a Moff, nor a military commander, nor a senior administrator. He's a henchman.
Not so. Maul was highly valued. Dooku was ALWAYS a pawn, he just didn't know it, as Anakin from his discovery, was always Palpatine's main target as his new apprentice.
Being valuable does not preclude being disposable. It just affects when the payoff is worth the loss. I saw no indication within either of the trilogies that Palpatine had any intention of handing power off to his apprentice at any point. That Palpatine show concern over Anakin's fate is not evidence that he planned for Vader to replace him.

edit:I guess the 501st might support Vader, but they're one legion. And they're EU anyway.
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.

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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

NecronLord wrote:
Havok wrote:The EU is not to be believed. Kinda my point.

Again... the movies show this to be false. Vader is respected by every officer we see except one in the movies.
Admiral Ozzel shows no respect for his intuition. Piett and Needa are plainly terrified of him. If your definition of respect is 'doesn't talk back' that works. He has a working relationship with Tarkin, sure, but most of the named officers don't respect him nearly as much as they fear him.
Please. We have two scenes of Ozzel. One is him being mad at Piett and one where he is fully prepared to report to Vader and shows no fear or any cause for alarm until he starts getting choked. Ozzel's reaction does not show any indication that he thinks Vader is going to suddenly strangle him, and he is surely going to report exactly what Veers has just told Vader. He also makes a point to say that Ozzel has failed him for the last time, indicating some level of incompetence on the Admiral's part. Veers clearly knew he fucked up. I will give that Ozzel, may not go out of his way to show respect for Vader, but he shows no fear in confronting him.

Vader also clearly has far more than a 'working relationship' with Tarkin, your EU points that out on several occasions as well as ANH.

And Needa is not only plainly NOT terrified of Vader, he shows NO fear in bringing the news to Vader that his ship has lost the Falcon. Also bear in mind that Vader's pursuit of the Falcon is not Empire business, but Sith business, and is of a far greater matter and importance to Vader than probably anything else he has undertaken as he knows he is after his newly discovered son. Vader's emotions are not in a normal state as is made plainly clear in TESB and ROTJ.
As for his executing officers being overblown; he is only just called off in ANH, does two in in ESB, and in one deleted scene for RotJ was doing another in until he stated that he was acting on the Emperor's orders. If I were writing an EU story featuring Vader, I'd probably have him kill an Imperial officer at some point; it is a consistent pattern of behavior.
Note the way Tarkin reacts to the situation. He is clearly intrigued indicating this is not something that happens often or that he has even seen before. He also says "enough of this" as if he is reprimanding two children. Is it wise to reprimand Vader and give him orders in the middle of choking an officer if it is something anyone can expect to happen to them?

And simply Motti's's open disdain for Vader shows that him killing officers all over the place is not something that happens. Would he be mocking Vader's "sorcerous ways" and "sad devotion to that ancient religion" if Vader were traveling around the fleet the last TWENTY YEARS force choking officers?
It is contradicted by the movies, except for one highly unique
That scene is neither unique, nor highly unique, it demonstrates Vader being quite prepared to murder an imperial admiral. There is another scene where he murders an imperial admiral, and one where an Imperial admiral expects to be murdered by him.
It most certainly is. Motti is openly mocking the Force, Vader and his Master and Motti's own Emperor. Find anything like that anywhere else in the movies OR your EU.

Also "Murder" is an interesting term to use. Vader is the second in command of a galactic Empire. I would imagine Vader is within his legal right to execute officers in HIS military for insubordination, of course that is just an assumption on my part and beside my point.

We don't know that he would have killed Motti, and very well may have stopped before he died (I doubt this also, but we are not certain) and was just proving a point, that clearly hasn't been made before or Motti would have known better.

As I said before, Vader made a point to cite Ozzel's incompetence. And as I also said, Needa showed no fear in taking the news to Vader personally of his loss of the Falcon. (Seriously, go watch the scene again, there is no fear in Needa) In fact, I have always felt that this scene is one that demonstrates the respect Vader does have as Needa is going to just send a message or underling.
And again, Vader is in pursuit of Luke at this point, not on a standard military mission. The stakes are far higher, along with Vader's emotional state. The entire scenario is a highly unique as far as we know.
Does he punish failure? Yes, but this is an Empire run by the Sith who get their power from anger, fear and aggression.
Failure? How did Captain Needa fail to find the Falcon? Everyone but Fett thought it had jumped into hyperspace!
Uh... he failed to find the Falcon by failing to find the Falcon. :|
Keep in mind that, IIRC, the Avenger was one of the Star Destroyers that let the Falcon get away into the asteroid field in the first place.
And Palpatine successfully distances himself from that in public opinion. Vader does not.
And as we all agree on, Vader is an extension of the Emperor in the Empire's eyes. So why doesn't whatever Vader does garner revolt against the Emperor, but automatically garners revolt against Vader in the Emperor's place?
Because the Emperor is astute in managing the many warlords under his command. Vader has shown no desire to involve himself with politics, and thus no skill in controlling it.
What "warlords"? There is a very rigid military structure that the Emperor himself constructed. Palpatine values order and obedience and certainly would not tolerate "warlords".

Oh right, the EU has warlords all over the place. I forgot. :roll:
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

Kingmaker wrote:
Really? How exactly does Palpatine come across as charismatic? When he is ordering the destruction of Alderaan? Or the dissolvement of the Senate?
How about the part where he declares himself Emperor of the fucking Galaxy? And everyone goes along with it.
Please don't confuse corruption with charisma. Palpatine has his hands in everything. And don't forget that the Senate already voted him "Emperor" in everything but title by constantly giving him more and more "emergency power". He basically just changed the title of his office from Supreme Chancellor to Emperor.
And where does that come from exactly? Why would they all of a sudden not depend of Vader for their status if he declared himself Emperor after Palpatine was dead? Would the Stormtroopers all of a sudden not be loyal to him? Would the officers not follow his commands? Would the Royal Guard not walk at his side? He is THE EMPEROR. Is there some form of democracy that instantly jumps in place because Palpatine dies?
Palpatine has supreme legitimacy as Emperor. His ministers, Grand Admirals, and advisors all derive their legitimacy from him. Moreover, he had the endorsement of the Senate (that he used space magic to get it is irrevelvant here), and of his subordinates, who collectively rely of his patronage. If Vader declares himself Emperor, they all laugh in his face. He does not command the Imperial military, he does not command the Imperial security apparatus, and he does not command the Imperial civil administration. I'm hard-pressed to think of anyone who would support Vader once they were outside of arm's reach. If you want to seize control of a totalitarian bureaucratic state, you need supporters. And nobody likes Vader. Maybe he shouldn't have been such a murderous asshole. Vader after Palpatine is going to be like Beria after Stalin: as soon as people can think of a way to get rid of him, they're going to. Except he doesn't even have Beria's actual status.
Are you fucking retarded? Vader IS Palpatine's WILL. That is not a secret. So why does everyone hate Vader, something which you haven't proven other than your say so, and loves Palpatine (something which the movies contradict by the way) when EVERYONE know that Vader is acting on the orders of the Emperor?

Also please provide the evidence from the movies that Vader does not have command of the Imperial military. I think this is the most blatantly false thing I have ever seen said on this forum with a straight tone before.

As for the security and civil administration... why would Vader command them any less than Palpatine does? You keep saying he wouldn't because he wouldn't have the support, but what support does Palpatine have that Vader would not. Palpatine declared himself Emperor. Vader is known to be Palpatine's right hand, so when Palpatine dies and he declares himself Emperor, everything changes... why?

Those close enough to Palpatine have a inkling of his true power. They also know that Vader shares this power. Those that know exactly what Palpatine is, know exactly what Vader is and will bow to the Dark Lord of the Sith just as they always have.
People have NO IDEA that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. No one knows who he is.
They know that he's the fucking Emperor of Space. Palpatine is not dependent on Darth Vader to maintain his empire. Having a force-sensitive henchman to serve as inquisitor and general-purpose troubleshooter is useful, but not essential. Meanwhile, nobody is going to listen to Darth Vader unless he's standing right over, breathing menacingly. Because he's not a Moff, nor a military commander, nor a senior administrator. He's a henchman.
Oh so you are saying that everyone knows that Palpatine is the Emperor of space and he doesn't need a henchman to do it. Vader should have no problem just letting everyone know he is now the Emperor of Space. Who is going to say no to him again? Thanks for agreeing with me.
And why does a Moff get all this respect, loyalty and support, but Vader, who commands Moffs, does not?

You have yet to answer any of these questions outside of "BECAUSE I SAY SO!!!"
Not so. Maul was highly valued. Dooku was ALWAYS a pawn, he just didn't know it, as Anakin from his discovery, was always Palpatine's main target as his new apprentice.
Being valuable does not preclude being disposable. It just affects when the payoff is worth the loss. I saw no indication within either of the trilogies that Palpatine had any intention of handing power off to his apprentice at any point. That Palpatine show concern over Anakin's fate is not evidence that he planned for Vader to replace him.
What? The ENTIRE POINT OF THE ORDER OF TWO is to have a DIRECT line of succession. If Palpatine is going to live forever and never give up his power, why does he need Vader at all? The clones wiped out every Jedi but two. He doesn't need Vader for anything. And way to snip the rest of my point.
edit:I guess the 501st might support Vader, but they're one legion. And they're EU anyway.
Actually, they are in ROTS.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

There's a reason Dick Cheney made an effective VP but would be a shitty president. The skills that make a good hatchetman do not necessarily translate to being a good Grand Poobah. Did Vader ever show an ounce of leadership skills beyond 'kill people I don't like'?
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

Failure? How did Captain Needa fail to find the Falcon? Everyone but Fett thought it had jumped into hyperspace!
Think of it like this, Needa commands a ship in Death Squadron, the cream of the Imperial starfleet, and he's just been outmanuvered by a two-bit dirt smuggler in a possibly damaged YT-1300, not once, but twice. Screwed the pooch pretty bad on that one, I'd say.

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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:There's a reason Dick Cheney made an effective VP but would be a shitty president. The skills that make a good hatchetman do not necessarily translate to being a good Grand Poobah. Did Vader ever show an ounce of leadership skills beyond 'kill people I don't like'?
Wow. What a horrible analogy because A: Dick Cheney would have, without question, become the President, whether anyone liked it or not, support or no support if Bush had died and B: Most agree he was ALREADY calling the shots and C: I dare say, Cheney would have been a better president than Bush.

As for Vader's leadership skills are you including Anakin, or just Vader when he was basically ordered to kill people Palpatine doesn't like. Make no mistakes, when he killed it was to ensure Palpatine's control and strength were assured and known. So saying, "Oh hey we never saw Vader do a leadership conference in Star Wars" is a pretty flimsy argument since as you pointed out, his role was AS Palpatine's hatchetman.

As for "kill people I don't like" there are several examples of Vader NOT killing people that fucked up. Piett, the officers that let R2 and 3PO get off the Tantive IV, Jerrod on the Death Star, in fact outside of the specific hunt for Skywalker in TESB and the Motti scene, Vader, as I pointed out just now and before, can tolerate mistakes and will accept input from his officers, even after they fucked up.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by NecronLord »

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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by NecronLord »

Also "Murder" is an interesting term to use. Vader is the second in command of a galactic Empire. I would imagine Vader is within his legal right
Allow me to quote an official New Republic statement from DESB:
Why Do We Fight the Empire? wrote: 1. Because it is not legal. As a government, it betrays the trust given it as successor to the Old Republic. It is unresponsive to the wishes of the beings it governs. It ignores their needs and oppresses them when they resist its tyranny. As such, it invalidates the purpose of a galactic government as initially stated: to serve the sapient life of the galaxy. There have been no new elections since that of President Palpatine. Emperor Palpatine and his Empire have no legal authority.
2. [...]
Not mentioned here and probably unknown to the rebels, is the fact that the Empire was built upon arch-Treason by Palpatine.

I'm with them; either way, the Empire is not a legal government, anyone killed on its authority is a murder victim, because it and its officials have no right to govern.

There's no point in talking to you any further on this topic anyway. You exclude all EU products?

Very well, this happened to the Empire:
Image

Certainly you may say they were put down with force - but that's from the EU too. We have no reason to think, given that it makes a point of showing rebellions from the point farthest from the bright heart of the galaxy to the Emperor's very gate, that it wasn't a 'Galaxy Far Far Away Spring' that simply overwhelmed the Empire and swept a New Republic to power, in the movie. That's certainly the impression I got after seeing the theatrical re-release.

This still shows the death of the Emperor being followed by the death of the Empire; rather quicker in fact.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Kingmaker »

Havok wrote:Words
A Wild Havok appears!
Havok uses Reading Comprehension.
It fails.
You have yet to answer any of these questions outside of "BECAUSE I SAY SO!!!"
I could say "no u". So I will. Please demonstrate that Vader is Palpatine's political heir, that he commands not just the obedience but the loyalty of the Imperial military, and that he is capable of controlling the Imperial government (protip: saying "why not?" or "it's obvious" does not constitute proof).
Are you fucking retarded? Vader IS Palpatine's WILL. That is not a secret. So why does everyone hate Vader, something which you haven't proven other than your say so, and loves Palpatine (something which the movies contradict by the way) when EVERYONE know that Vader is acting on the orders of the Emperor?
Could it be the fact that pretty much every Imperial we meet, save Tarkin and Palpatine, is either scared shitless of Vader or mouths off to him and gets assaulted with space magic (and excuses like "It's within his authority to punish disrespect or incompetence" isn't really relevant to the fact that using violence to punish slights and incompetence is not going to endear one to one's colleagues and subordinates). Besides, you've just admitted that any authority Vader has is as a representative of Palpatine.
Also please provide the evidence from the movies that Vader does not have command of the Imperial military. I think this is the most blatantly false thing I have ever seen said on this forum with a straight tone before.
Oooh, could it be that we never see Vader commanding anything larger than a special task force? Or that whenever we see him he's busy with some special task given to him by the Emperor? He's not in command at Yavin, nor at Endor, and is not acting as a military commander at Hoth.
Vader should have no problem just letting everyone know he is now the Emperor of Space.
You really don't understand how totalitarian bureaucratic states function, do you? Darth Vader declares "I'm the Emperor of Space." and the various military and civil leaders of the Empire are going to say "The hell you are! Why not me?" Why? Because these people don't get anything out Vader being emperor that they wouldn't get better from being emperor themselves. When Palpatine is in power, his senior leaders (including Vader) all depend on him for their power, and if one of them tries to overthrow him, the others will happily eat the traitor alive to win the favor of the Emperor. Vader is even worse off because he had no built in base of support; he's a special agent for the Emperor, but that's all he is.

As you said, Vader is the will of Palpatine, and the will of a dead guy is nothing. Ergo, once Palpatine is dead, Vader is nothing. Your mistake is assuming that power and legitimacy in the Empire is Palpatine->Vader->Everyone else. We see no evidence of this in the films, and overwhelming evidence against it in the EU.
Oh so you are saying that everyone knows that Palpatine is the Emperor of space and he doesn't need a henchman to do it.
I'm so sorry. I'm sure we can find you a remedial reading comprehension class, somewhere (you might have to share it with kindergarden washouts, though). What I was saying is that Palpatine, armed with resources of the entire fucking Empire, can probably come up with something else if for some reason he loses his pet space wizard/inquisitor/political officer/henchman. Even if it's just a squad of less individually dangerous and competent guys.
What? The ENTIRE POINT OF THE ORDER OF TWO is to have a DIRECT line of succession. If Palpatine is going to live forever and never give up his power, why does he need Vader at all?
Strictly speaking, he doesn't. Vader is however, very useful and nigh irreplaceable (and please note: irreplaceable does not mean indispensable) so there is no reason to get rid of him unless he's begun to pose a danger that invalidates his usefulness.
Actually, they are in ROTS.
Where? (I'm genuinely curious. I know that other sources identify them as being in the events of the movie, but I don't recall them being identified in the movie itself).
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Kingmaker wrote: Where? (I'm genuinely curious. I know that other sources identify them as being in the events of the movie, but I don't recall them being identified in the movie itself).
They're not ever referred to be name. I do seem to recall that the EU says they're the troopers who accompanied Vader to the Jedi Temple, but that's about it.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by RogueIce »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Kingmaker wrote: Where? (I'm genuinely curious. I know that other sources identify them as being in the events of the movie, but I don't recall them being identified in the movie itself).
They're not ever referred to be name. I do seem to recall that the EU says they're the troopers who accompanied Vader to the Jedi Temple, but that's about it.
I think they're named in the RotS novel, which is G-canon.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

NecronLord wrote:Image
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Man, it is so awesome that you used an officer that fucked up a few times and didn't get killed by Vader. :lol:

Being afraid of the fucking Dark Lord of the Sith and having respect for him are not mutually exclusive. As that is a fact, you haven't shown at all that Piett doesn't have respect for him which is your claim.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by NecronLord »

That's Needa not Piett. Before he comes up with his idea to save his skin by showing Vader he has brass balls. For someone basing their case on character reactions in the films, you suck at actually recognizing the characters.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Stofsk »

That's Captain Needa actually Hav.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

NecronLord wrote:
Also "Murder" is an interesting term to use. Vader is the second in command of a galactic Empire. I would imagine Vader is within his legal right
Allow me to quote an official New Republic statement from DESB:
Why Do We Fight the Empire? wrote: 1. Because it is not legal. As a government, it betrays the trust given it as successor to the Old Republic. It is unresponsive to the wishes of the beings it governs. It ignores their needs and oppresses them when they resist its tyranny. As such, it invalidates the purpose of a galactic government as initially stated: to serve the sapient life of the galaxy. There have been no new elections since that of President Palpatine. Emperor Palpatine and his Empire have no legal authority.
2. [...]
Ok. I'll accept this.

Now lets take an objective look at where it comes from shall we?

The New Republic.

The New Republic which is a direct descendant of the Rebel Alliance that was formed to topple Palpatine and his Empire.

An Empire that was created, with not only the consent and legal authority of the existing recognized legal government at the time, but done so to "thunderous applause". Applause from how many THOUSANDS of galactic representatives?

An Empire that was created after an a SELF RECOGNIZED attempted coup by the Jedi, who were the Generals of the legally created army of the Republic.

The New Republic doesn't consider the Empire legal or legitimate? You don't say? :lol:

It's also interesting to note that the person that informed Amadala of all the corruption that was rampant in the Senate was Palpatine.

Not mentioned here and probably unknown to the rebels, is the fact that the Empire was built upon arch-Treason by Palpatine.

I'm with them; either way, the Empire is not a legal government, anyone killed on its authority is a murder victim, because it and its officials have no right to govern.
EXCEPT as you JUST POINTED OUT, barely anyone knows, and certainly, no one can prove that Palpatine ever committed treason. Therefore the Rebel Alliance and everything after it is actually the government acting illegally after overthrowing the legal government of the First Galactic Empire. What you and I know as the omniscient viewer does not equate what the characters in universe know.
There's no point in talking to you any further on this topic anyway. You exclude all EU products?
I should clarify this. I do except SOME EU. If it makes sense within the context of the full completed saga, then I accept it. It is a case by case basis.

The excerpt from the New Republic you posted up there makes perfect sense as it is exactly the type of thing an unlawful government would publish about the lawful government they have usurped.

Things like Luke going to look for his mom? C'mon. That story is complete bullshit. Leia not training to become a real Jedi is bullshit.
Very well, this happened to the Empire:
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Certainly you may say they were put down with force - but that's from the EU too. We have no reason to think, given that it makes a point of showing rebellions from the point farthest from the bright heart of the galaxy to the Emperor's very gate, that it wasn't a 'Galaxy Far Far Away Spring' that simply overwhelmed the Empire and swept a New Republic to power, in the movie. That's certainly the impression I got after seeing the theatrical re-release.

This still shows the death of the Emperor being followed by the death of the Empire; rather quicker in fact.
[/quote]Uh... I have never argued that the galaxy LIKED the Empire. In fact, I said the opposite. I also view those scenes as the death of the Empire HENCE why I find almost ALL EU after ROTJ to be utter bullshit.

My arguments have been about Vader assuming the mantle of Emperor in a what if scenario, and the fact that no one has given any reason as to why the Empire would not still function under his rule, other than because he is not Palpatine... and... yeah, that's it.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by NecronLord »

What you and I know as the omniscient viewer does not equate what the characters in universe know.
And you were taking issue with my judgement of it as murder. I am an omniscient viewer, I sit in mighty judgement over their actions on my couch of reasonable comfort and know things they do not.


As for the rest; if you view that as the death of the Empire, then your arguments are not relevant objections to my case that Palpatine-fall = empire fall, because you've yet to demonstrate how Vader could succeed him, using film only evidence please. The burden of proof is yours to demonstrate some mechanism for this.

Though why I humour your movie purism is beyond me. SW has a canon policy. EU is canon; like it or lump it.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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NecronLord wrote:That's Needa not Piett. Before he comes up with his idea to save his skin by showing Vader he has brass balls. For someone basing their case on character reactions in the films, you suck at actually recognizing the characters.
Ha ha! Yeah it fucking is isn't it. :mrgreen: I'll concede the point there.

In my defense I looked at that picture last night before I went to bed and saved a post I was trying to write on my phone, which sucks by the way, but yeah... my bad.

However, is Needa afraid for his life or concerned about giving a the right hand of the Emperor bad news? Are people in the real military never concerned about giving bad news to their superiors? That picture and the scene don't prove anything, certainly not what he is thinking. However, his actions prove that he was not in fear for his life, unless you are saying that you feel Needa was suicidal, which would be the only reason to go there in person to relay failure when he could have just had the comm officer send back a message that they lost the Falcon.

He obviously had the respect for Vader to relay what he knew was very important news, in person. Or as I said, he was suicidal, if when dealing with Vader, failure=death, which I have already proven it does not.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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Or if you listen to the film, his tone is 'I may as well try and show courage in dealing with this, maybe that'll help.'
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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I always thought Needa knew his jig was up, and decided to face the music in person than let Vader strangle him from afar. The tone of the scene with the ominious music when that subordinate officer goes 'Lord Vader demands an update on the pursuit' is what sells it to me.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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NecronLord wrote:
What you and I know as the omniscient viewer does not equate what the characters in universe know.
And you were taking issue with my judgement of it as murder. I am an omniscient viewer, I sit in mighty judgement over their actions on my couch of reasonable comfort and know things they do not.
You have been making arguments for IN UNIVERSE reactions and actions.

As for the rest; if you view that as the death of the Empire, then your arguments are not relevant objections to my case that Palpatine-fall = empire fall, because you've yet to demonstrate how Vader could succeed him, using film only evidence please.
Yes, I have. You have tried to counter it with only the EU. All evidence and facts in the movies point to Vader poised as the successor to Palpatine when either Palpatine dies, or Vader overthrows him, which is how the Sith have been established, on screen, by multiple characters, to work.
Though why I humour your movie purism is beyond me. SW has a canon policy. EU is canon; like it or lump it.
Negative. EU canon states that if the movies contradict what an EU source says, shows or relays, it is NOT canon. My contention is with what I feel the movies contradict. I am certainly not a movie purist as I include the novels of the movies, written directly to sequel or prequel the PT. I just generally dismiss anything POST ROTJ as so much of it was written and it's foundations laid BEFORE we had a complete saga.

To a T people are not willing to dismiss the EU as a whole because there are certain elements that they like, even though, if common sense would prevail, they would see that almost everything AFTER ROTJ is completely wrong and has gone off the fucking rails. Even you acknowledge this.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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NecronLord wrote:Or if you listen to the film, his tone is 'I may as well try and show courage in dealing with this, maybe that'll help.'
Oh, he definitely knows he is in deep shit, but death is not the only option Vader has dolled out when he confronts failure. As we saw in ANH on the Tantive IV.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

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Havok wrote:You have been making arguments for IN UNIVERSE reactions and actions.
You took issue with my use of the word murder, dipshit.

I know that the EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE is an illegitimate organization that goes around murdering people. So do you.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Stark »

Havok wrote:Oh, he definitely knows he is in deep shit, but death is not the only option Vader has dolled out when he confronts failure. As we saw in ANH on the Tantive IV.
To be honest, this always suggested to me that Vader respected this sort of courage or firmness in his subordinates; perhaps there's a history of Vader brutally punishing those who fuck up and try to cover it up or hide behind subordinates, and being lenient on those who can man up and admit it.

Sadly, this was way too personal for Vader to let go.
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Re: So you've killed the Emperor. Now what?

Post by Havok »

Kingmaker wrote:Words
:roll:

You're whole argument is based on the EU contradicting what the movies clearly show.

You: Everyone depends on The Emperor for their status.
Me: OK, why?
You: BECAUSE THEY DO!!
Me: So then they can depend on Vader for it as well, as he is next in line as the head of the Sith Order which now rules the First Galactic Empire, as the movies show us.
You: NO THEY CAN'T!!
Me: Why?
You: Because without the Emperor it doesn't work and no one likes him!
Me: Why?
You: Because of the EU!
Me: The EU contradicts what the movie shows us.
You: You're stupid!
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