"Choices of One" Talkback (Spoilers)

[JME2]

So has anyone picked up the new Zahn novel?

My local library branch had it and I just finished it this afternoon.

If you liked Allegiance, you'll like this. Not only does it pick up where the previous novel left off...
Spoiler

..it also maneuvers the adventures of the Hand of Judgement into the over-arching Thrawn story.

The other Zahn regulars put in an appearance: Thrawn obviously, but also Pellaeon, Car'das, and Parck.

Given my distaste for Pellaeon's death, it's good to see him again -- and fun as he's still a commander and not yet Captain or Grand Admiral. Though it's subtle, it's clear after his book why Thrawn chose Chimaera as his command ship.

There's also nice foreshadowing of the later films.
Spoiler

Thrawn visits Endor as construction beings on DSII and the shield generator. The Emperor ignores him when Thrawn advises Palpatine to take the native seriously.

We also learn how and where the Rebels acquired the Snow-speeders and most of the equipment used at Hoth.

My biggest complaint is that...
Spoiler

...Luke and Mara interact a little too directly during the climax; it strains the credibility of them not having met until the Thrawn Trilogy. The interactions between Thrawn and Pellaeon also fall into this category -- though in this case, though not outright stated, it's clearer why Thrawn chose Chimaera as his command ship.

Still, Zahn's my third-favorite EU writer behind Luceno and Stover, so I'm always happy with his stuff.

[The Romulan Republic]

Huh, you have the exact same favorite EU authors that I do, in the exact same order no less.

I'll keep an eye out for this one. Love the bit about Thrawn and Endor.

[JME2]

Huh, you have the exact same favorite EU authors that I do, in the exact same order no less.

They're all great writers with different strengths.

Luceno's great at fleshing out the continuity and tying together multiple elements into a coherent story.

Stover's combination of darker, grittier stories with philosophical insight and prose is always a treat. Shatterpoint is in my top 5 favorite EU novels.

And Zahn's great at balancing multiple plotlines and creating memorable characters. He's really one of the few writers that's nailed the feel of the movies.

Love the bit about Thrawn and Endor. [/quote]

That's just one part of the conversation.
Spoiler

Thrawn also recommends defoliating the surrounding forest, but Palpatine's more interested in using the generator as a trap. Thrawn doesn't push the point, but he's not happy basic security is being ignored.

[Stofsk]

Zahn's my favourite EU author. I'll be picking this up at some point, although I actually need to read Allegiance.

[Crazedwraith]

That's just one part of the conversation.
Spoiler

Thrawn also recommends defoliating the surrounding forest, but Palpatine's more interested in using the generator as a trap. Thrawn doesn't push the point, but he's not happy basic security is being ignored.

Oh no. Really? Really?

Fucking Thrawn wanking. 'Everything would have turned out alright if they'd listen to my character' says Zahn. Still that's not as bad as Side Trip where it turns out that Thrawn was responsible for the Imp's victory at Derra IV.

[The Romulan Republic]

What's your problem with it?

All of this is fairly obvious- I mean, pretty much the same comments about Endor have been posted how many times on this board? He'd have to be an imbecile or a good little yes man to the Emperor not to say these things, and either would contradict his established characterization.

[Crazedwraith]

What's your problem with it?

All of this is fairly obvious- I mean, pretty much the same comments about Endor have been posted how many times on this board? He'd have to be an imbecile or a good little yes man to the Emperor not to say these things, and either would contradict his established characterization.

My problem with it, is what I've already stated its Thrawn wank. Where Thrawn is perfect and the Empire would never have been beaten if they'd only listen to him. I bet if Zahn had written 'Death Star' it would have featured a scene where he pops out of the blue takes one look on the design and says 'hmm. Needs a tighter defense against fighters' and gets laughed off by the designers and omg isn't it so cool and ironic that he was proved right and is such an inappreciated badass.

Obviously, I've not read the book and can't comment on this with certainty, but I can't think of a way those lines can have been an absolutely necessary part of the narrative and not be a pointless addition by Zahn to prove just how much better his original creations are than the canon ones.

[Stofsk]

I don't see how it's wank just because he pointed out something obvious. If you want to rail against Thrawn-wank then look at the duology, where everyone shits themselves over the possibility that Thrawn didn't die at Bilbringi all those years ago. And lol how the NR admiralty can't defend themselves against a con man masquerading as Thrawn. (I haven't read the duology in ages but I seem to remember a scene where Garm Bel Iblis was defending against the Thrawn imposter and the latter won because Garm didn't think he was up to the challenge or something)

Even your example of 'what if he was on the death star' etc wouldn't be an example of wank. Hell in the movie itself, someone points out to Tarkin that the Rebel's had a chance and that they ought to consider a possible evac, and Tarkin was arrogantly dismissive. It's quite clear from the movies that the Empire's top-tier personnel suffered from arrogance mixed with recklessness. Ozzel thought surprise was a wiser course of action and wound up tipping the Rebels off in time. Admiral Motti was dismissive against the Rebellion as well and look where that got the Death Star. Palpatine thought using himself as bait was a good idea. The only Imperial villain who was actually effective at getting results was Darth 'Choke 'em from afar 'til they die' Vader.

[The Romulan Republic]

My problem with it, is what I've already stated its Thrawn wank.

Its not.

Where Thrawn is perfect and the Empire would never have been beaten if they'd only listen to him. I bet if Zahn had written 'Death Star' it would have featured a scene where he pops out of the blue takes one look on the design and says 'hmm. Needs a tighter defense against fighters' and gets laughed off by the designers and omg isn't it so cool and ironic that he was proved right and is such an inappreciated badass.

The alternative is Thrawn not noticing a defensive flaw obvious enough for plenty of posters here to spot. Like I said, he'd have to be an imbecile or a yes man not to point it out.

Obviously, I've not read the book and can't comment on this with certainty, but I can't think of a way those lines can have been an absolutely necessary part of the narrative and not be a pointless addition by Zahn to prove just how much better his original creations are than the canon ones.

So books should only include lines that are absolutely essential to the narrative now?

[Havok]

The one scene alone is not wank, but come the fuck on, "I can figure out the military strategy of an entire race based on PAINTINGS!!" coupled with the myriad of other excerpts that run along the same lines as "I told you so." Thrawness, and it just adds to the wank of the character as a whole.

I get that Thrawn likes himself Zahn likes his creation, but he writes him as if he is omniscient, but just never quite in the right circumstance to do anything about it, or surely, he would win the day 24/7.

[Havok]

My problem with it, is what I've already stated its Thrawn wank.

Its not.

Yeah, it is.

Where Thrawn is perfect and the Empire would never have been beaten if they'd only listen to him. I bet if Zahn had written 'Death Star' it would have featured a scene where he pops out of the blue takes one look on the design and says 'hmm. Needs a tighter defense against fighters' and gets laughed off by the designers and omg isn't it so cool and ironic that he was proved right and is such an inappreciated badass.

The alternative is Thrawn not noticing a defensive flaw obvious enough for plenty of posters here to spot. Like I said, he'd have to be an imbecile or a yes man not to point it out.

No, the alternative is Thrawn looking at the fucking Death Star and knowing that even a couple thousand fighters would do nothing to it. Oh but of course he would know about the one minor weakness that the rebels spent time actually looking for that NO ONE thought would work and was a last ditch suicide mission effort.

And, fucking NO, plenty of posters here WOULD NOT spot that as a weakness. Jesus fucking christ. No wonder you guys like Thrawn so much. He is just as smart as YOU are.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, it is.

You just admitted in your previous post that that scene alone is not wank.

No, the alternative is Thrawn looking at the fucking Death Star and knowing that even a couple thousand fighters would do nothing to it. Oh but of course he would know about the one minor weakness that the rebels spent time actually looking for that NO ONE thought would work and was a last ditch suicide mission effort.

Okay, I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I wasn't refering to the Death Star there. I was talking about the Endor base defences. I expect that if I go through this forum I can find plenty of examples of posters here pointing out the exact same issues with Endor.

And, fucking NO, plenty of posters here WOULD NOT spot that as a weakness. Jesus fucking christ. No wonder you guys like Thrawn so much. He is just as smart as YOU are.

Again, I was referring to Endor, not Yavin. Though as Stofsk noted, another Imperial officer also observed this flaw. As a Grand Admiral, Thrawn should be able to pick up on something some underling of Tarkin's spotted.

I'll accept your concession now.

[JME2]

Zahn's my favourite EU author. I'll be picking this up at some point, although I actually need to read Allegiance.

Zahn brings new readers up to speed, but yeah it's best to read Allegiance first.

[Tiriol]

Thrawn is arrogant himself, but in other ways than Palpatine (who relies on the dark side too much) or Tarkin and his ilk: he has a very clear sense of his own brilliance and that does make him dismissive of others to some extent (I do wonder, though, how much that is about Zahn and not only about Thrawn). Case in point: Vader. He actually manages to bring in victories for the Empire and is much more devious and calculating than usually given credit for, but Thrawn seems to think of the Dark Lord as someone who would without any need waste lives (and Zahn seems to think that Vader is a mere brute and Mara Jade of all people could surprise the Dark Lord). And Thrawn, in the end, is just as sure of himself as any other Imperial commander. His only difference in that regard is that when presented with proof, he will back down and admit that he was wrong (on the other hand that is NOT entirely uncommon trait among the Imperial high command, although certainly there are people like that in there).

Zahn should give Thrawn a rest finally. Thrawn is a great character, but he's becoming over-saturated and needlessly added everywhere.

[Havok]

Yeah, it is.

You just admitted in your previous post that that scene alone is not wank.

Yes, and I also said IF taken alone. As everything else Thrawn has ever done has come before, that isn't and can't be the case. It is fucking wank and your little sad cherry pick there leads me to believe that you think so to and you are just trying to desperately defend your OMG FAV CHARACTER EVAR!!

No, the alternative is Thrawn looking at the fucking Death Star and knowing that even a couple thousand fighters would do nothing to it. Oh but of course he would know about the one minor weakness that the rebels spent time actually looking for that NO ONE thought would work and was a last ditch suicide mission effort.

Okay, I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I wasn't refering to the Death Star there. I was talking about the Endor base defences. I expect that if I go through this forum I can find plenty of examples of posters here pointing out the exact same issues with Endor.

Uh huh... you are talking about the guy that got stabbed by the primitives that he viewed as a threat... oh wait.
Sorry. No one in the Imperial Fleet is going to look at Ewoks with SPEARS AND SLINGS and say... "Shit! Deal with those monsters before the Rebels get here!!" Even in the movie, it was only the surprise that allowed the Ewoks to do anything, and with out Chewie stealing the AT-ST, they would have just kept getting killed as the battle was prolonged and turned back into the Imperial's favor.

And, fucking NO, plenty of posters here WOULD NOT spot that as a weakness. Jesus fucking christ. No wonder you guys like Thrawn so much. He is just as smart as YOU are.

Again, I was referring to Endor, not Yavin. Though as Stofsk noted, another Imperial officer also observed this flaw. As a Grand Admiral, Thrawn should be able to pick up on something some underling of Tarkin's spotted.

I'll accept your concession now.

Oh man... "Damnit! Clear away all that natural camouflage and make sure that our secret back door to our shield bunker is clearly visible.!!"

I do concede though. I was incorrect. You guys don't like Thrawn because you think he is a smart as you are. You like him because he is obviously as dumb as you are.

[atg]

Okay, I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I wasn't refering to the Death Star there. I was talking about the Endor base defences. I expect that if I go through this forum I can find plenty of examples of posters here pointing out the exact same issues with Endor.

Uh huh... you are talking about the guy that got stabbed by the primitives that he viewed as a threat... oh wait.
Sorry. No one in the Imperial Fleet is going to look at Ewoks with SPEARS AND SLINGS and say... "Shit! Deal with those monsters before the Rebels get here!!" Even in the movie, it was only the surprise that allowed the Ewoks to do anything, and with out Chewie stealing the AT-ST, they would have just kept getting killed as the battle was prolonged and turned back into the Imperial's favor.

I haven't read the book so I can't say for sure - but couldn't Thrawn's comments be simply to clear the area around the base so that any Rebel sabotage squad has to walk through X meters of open ground to reach the base rather than be refering to anything the Ewoks could do? That does seem to be something that any sane military commander would do, and it could also justify why Palpatine ignored the suggestion because he wanted the Rebels to see an opportunity to take out the shield generator.

Can anyone here with the book clarify what the exact quote and/or context is?

[JME2]

I haven't read the book so I can't say for sure - but couldn't Thrawn's comments be simply to clear the area around the base so that any Rebel sabotage squad has to walk through X meters of open ground to reach the base rather than be refering to anything the Ewoks could do? That does seem to be something that any sane military commander would do, and it could also justify why Palpatine ignored the suggestion because he wanted the Rebels to see an opportunity to take out the shield generator.

Yes, the defoliation suggestion was meant for potential saboteurs like the Rebels.

Again, Thrawn understood Palpatine's intention, but he wasn't crazy about it.

I also need to stress that while Thrawn and his tactics are involved in the book, he's a supporting character here and doesn't really come into play until the last third.

[Thanas]

I just got the book and will talk a bit about some interesting parts.

Overall, I really, really liked this book. It felt real and not having such a Jedi-heavy focus helped. Security patrols are actually competent etc. It definitely is Thrawn's best work since the HoT duology. I won't spoil anything except that there are layers upon layers and only at the end do they come together in a masterful ballet. This is finally an EU book worth its money. It has a general level of competence and - for want of a better word - realism, aka enemies are generally threatening and everybody behaves in a realistic and competent way.

This is how SW is supposed to be written and which makes it fun to read. Although we all know the main characters will not die, Zahn still creates scenarios that have you wondering "how is he going to get out of this" and when the answer comes, you'll go "of course" and realize it was right in front of you the whole time.



Some non-spoilery observations about information contained in the book:

- Star Destroyers have numerous bridge officers, all with nearly identical rank. Seems like a variation between Captain/Third Bridge officer for the first shift and first and second bridge officer taking other shifts. Bridge officers basically seem to have a wide authority over everything and seem like Captains in all but name - for example, Pellaeon can order the security officers around to keep tabs on people etc.
- Palpatine is far less enthusiastic about Thrawn's UR project, even going so far as to deny him six ISDs to stop an invasion of an alien warlord.
- Traffic in an Outer Rim capital system is enough to mask the movement of the Rebel Alliance establishing a base
- Some stormtrooper helmets got a tongue switch, rendering the helmet inoperable if it is pulled off from its wearer.
- Imperial warships carry specialized anti-intruder sensors, even against shapeshifters like the clawdites
- Voss Park is an excellent tactician, using his carracks ships in a pattern that allows the Admonitor to lower its shields at points and send out heavier than usual firepower at the enemy.
- Skywalker apparently is one of the more common names of the galaxy
- Thrawn's 501st is not Vader's 501st, or at least not when it was founded. Thrawn's 501st is a unit founded specifically to integrate non-humans



*****************************
about the defoliating stuff:

Essentially Thrawn suggests "burning off the forest for a hundred kilometers around the generator and putting a small mechanized force of AT-ATs and Juggernaut heavy assault vehicles under the umbrella shield", with "point support from three or four wing-clusters of hoverscouts", with the Emperor disagreeing because he wants it look like the bunker can be taken by ground troops. So the point is not that Thrawn is more brilliant, the point is that the Emperor wants it to be a trap. Thrawn realizes this and promptly backs off. This is not wank by any measure of the word.

[Stofsk]

I just got the book and will talk a bit about some interesting parts.

Overall, I really, really liked this book. It felt real and not having such a Jedi-heavy focus helped. Security patrols are actually competent etc. It definitely is Thrawn's best work since the HoT duology.

Don't you mean Zahn.

Anyway I'm reading through this at the moment, after reading Allegiance. Allegiance was... ok. Not that great though. I'm liking Choices more, but I'm only a third or so into it.

[Thanas]

Yeah, right.

Though Thrawn delivers some of his best work in there as well.

[JME2]

Yeah, right.

Though Thrawn delivers some of his best work in there as well.

Agreed; the twists in the climax had me grinning.

[Ahriman238]

The one scene alone is not wank, but come the fuck on, "I can figure out the military strategy of an entire race based on PAINTINGS!!" coupled with the myriad of other excerpts that run along the same lines as "I told you so." Thrawness, and it just adds to the wank of the character as a whole.

I get that Thrawn likes himself Zahn likes his creation, but he writes him as if he is omniscient, but just never quite in the right circumstance to do anything about it, or surely, he would win the day 24/7.

This is something I can never quite get. You do Thrawn is the bad guy, right? That he ultimately loses? Loses and dies?

But hey, this is Sd.net, the home of rational analysis, let's look at the record.

Heir to the Empire:
Thrawn appears out of nowhere (the unknown Regions) with a couple more Star Destroyers to bolster the failing Imperial war effort. Aside from being a skilled and charismatic leader, he has flawless intelligence from the Emperor's super-secret undectable bugs in the New Republics governmental chambers. He also knows of a secret location where he obtains cloaking and cloning technology, and he makes an alliance with a crazed jedi. So far he's off to a better start than most of the Warlords, but do remember the advanced tech, Jedi Master, and Delta Source because almost all of his victories depend on one or more of these advantages.
Manpower problems taken care of, he turns to finding ships for his men, capturing Luke Skywalker as a term of his alliance with C'baoth and capturing Han and Leia.... um. Because? Anyway, his Noghri capture teams consistently fail to nab the Solos and Luke escapes him twice. Thrawn wins something at Mrykyr by getting more ysalmiri, but Luke was always the real prize and Thrawn couldn't capture him on the one planet in the damn galaxy where his special powers don't work.
He tries and fails to raid Nyklon to get the tiny mining ships. He tries again and suceeds. He uses the cloak to launch a daring raid on one of the New Republic's major shipyards and capture twenty Mon Cal cruisers for his fleet, and fails because he didn't know Lando was there with the override or that he and Han would choose immediatly to destroy the ships rather than let them be taking. The Battle of Sluis Vaan is sort of a loss for both sides.

Dark Force Rising:
Thrawn salvages something from Sluis Vaan, a few electronic credit transfers and it appears that the Empire bribed Admiral Ackbar into lowering security at the shipyards. Total nonsense of course, but it sets the upper echelons of the NR against each other and gets Ackbar, the deadliest of the NR's commanders out of the way. Money well spent, from Thrawn's perspective. You may argue that his ability to manipulate the politics of his enemies so thouroughly is unrealistic, but do you have any idea how much money and man-hours were spent on similar projects during WWII?
Leia goes to Honoghar, meets the Noghri, and reveals that the Empire has been lying to and using them for decades. Thrawn participating in the deception seems odd, but whatever. If he didn't do evil things every once in a while, people might forget he's supposed to be the villain.
Thrawn wins the race to the man who knows where Dark Force is, but that was more a matter of luck than anything. He captures Talon Karrde, but Luke and Mara bust him out of his cell on Thrawn's flagship. The Grand Admiral anticipates almost every move of their escape, once he knows there's a jailbreak going on, but still cannot stop them.

The Last Command:
With his jedi and his cloak, Thrawn arranges a bit of sleight of hand to look like his ships can now shoot through planetary shields. He's smart enough to only use this trick on relative backwaters where the locals are particularly fearful. He installs cloaking devices on twenty three asteroids and launches them in Coruscant's orbit, while simulating several hundred fake launches. Since the NR can only make sure there are no asteroids with a rare specialized sensor that only the Empire has, Thrawn is also able to mousetrap the NR fleet, ignoring a fairly obvious feint.
It almost really was the end, game over.
However, all the things that Thrawn didn't know about, assumed, or underestimated come around to bite him in the ass. He had no idea the Noghri had turned on him. He never seriously believed that Karrde could form an alliance of smugglers, or that they could do so much damage to his plans. He couldn't have forseen the flash of insight that exposed Delta Source, and he was a bit foolish to even entertain trusting Mara, but his greatest failure was letting C'baoth's leash slip even a little. If the heroes hadn't killed them both, Thrawn could look forward to storming his own precious stronghold on Wayland, manned by mind-blitzed zombies with a top-rank jedi and a clone of Luke to face off against at the end.

Basically, Thrawn was an intimidating villain who seemed like he might seriously wrest the galaxy back from the New Republic, but he lost at least as often as he won, maybe more so. But I like that. I like that he got to spend time wondering how to salvage a bad situation, and I like that he faced defeat with the same grace as victory. Even his death was classy. I think that's what made him a great and compelling villain unlike, say, Zsinj, who was also supposed to be a genius but never seemed as dangerous or as interesting.

[Thanas]

Zsinji came across like an idiot, wasting resources as hard as he could. That was his main problem.

[Vympel]

Anymore insipid Vader character assassination in this book?

[Thanas]

Anymore insipid Vader character assassination in this book?

Not really - well, for some reason Thrawn does not like Vader as a person but is willing to work with him.

And Vader does have quite the moment....